You did not chose Me, I chose you.

CharismaticLady said:

Don't be offended. Abraham did a lot of sins, but he believed in God and loved Him. And before Christ came to empower us with His Spirit, that is all that was required, especially before the law.

3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

Click to expand...

Please provide a complete list of sins that you believed Abraham had partaken in. Personally, I do not think it was a lot; Especially in light of Samson and Solomon.

renniks said:

You got the cart before the horse there, pardner. The do reprobate things because they are not saved. If they were, they would do good works, because of the Spirit in them.
The works don't save, the Spirit does.

Click to expand...

I believe it is God who does the good work through the believer and it is not the believer who does the good work alone (Philippians 2:13) (John 15:5), but a believer does have to cooperate with GOD so as to allow Him to do the good work through them. But yes, these works of GOD in Sanctification do save, just as surely as the work of God on the cross saves.

1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
   
   
2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).
   
   
3. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
   
   
4. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9).

renniks said:

You got the cart before the horse there, pardner. The do reprobate things because they are not saved. If they were, they would do good works, because of the Spirit in them.
The works don't save, the Spirit does.

Click to expand...

Again, this would apply to both Jews and Gentiles. The warning is in the teaching itself. If no good works are present, they are denying God. This means that works are necessary because one cannot abide in God and not have works because God is going to naturally do works through the believer. Jesus essentially says in John 15 that a branch that does not abide in him and produces fruit is cut down and cast into the fire. The branch would be us.

bobsmename said:

I remember sitting on the edge of my bed as a teenager deep in thought, roughly three billion people reckoned to believe in God, two billion of them in Christianity, many with differing beliefs. And I reckon most were smarter than me. Who was I in the grand scheme of things I thought. So I did the only thing I could do, I got down on my knees and asked God to show me the truth of scripture through the Holy Spirit, for the bible tells us he leads believers into truth. And I trusted God for it. Doesn't mean I know everything, far from it, but I would prefer to trust that way that in turning to the greek, Hebrew or Aramaic.
Once again, you have to read the bible as one cohesive whole.
BTW
I ONLY met one person who read the greek who understood Paul's message of grace, sorry

Click to expand...

Eternal security was not taught in the church before the 16th century and has been refuted by every single church the apostles established. Do you believe that every church the apostles established were teaching a false gospel? I still haven’t seen your interpretation of John 15:1-10.

bobsmename said:

You really want to grow in knowledge? Take time off this website, spend more time in prayer, and you will unearth far more of the message contained in the letter, rather than simply selectively quoting it. That's good advice!

Click to expand...

If you really want to grow in knowledge of what the apostles actually taught it’s important to do the study. Reading the earliest church writings and studying the Greek words and definitions helps a ton. The Holy Spirit will teach everyone what is necessary to receive salvation but not specifically what the apostles actually taught. This is why Christians do not agree on doctrines. Some do the study and some don’t. The doctrines will not save or condemn a person. Both those who advocate eternal security or conditional salvation can truly serve God and receive salvation because it’s not the actions that saves the person but the motivation behind the actions that will save or condemn them. If the Holy Spirit taught us all that the apostles taught then there would either be only one denomination or only one denomination would be saved because only one denomination would possess the Holy Spirit. That simply is not the case. I’m a firm believer that there are truly saved Christians in a variety of denominations if not all of them.

CharismaticLady said:

Let me ask you a question.

1 John 3:9 says
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Is this person a sinner, or what God calls them, a child of God.

BTW, 1 John 1:8 doesn't mean what you think it does, but first answer that question.

Click to expand...

God’s ultimate goal in our lives is to make us like Jesus, and here, John speaks of the fulfillment of that purpose.


In 1 John 3:9 two distinct identities are described: the begotten of God and (b) God’s seed. In sorting out what is being said in this verse about each of these two things, it should be noted that the third person singular ending on a verb can be translated, “he,” “she,” or “it.”

This being the case, verse 9 could be interpreted: “Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin . . . because he is born of God.” The omitted words would refer to God’s seed and would explain why the one born of God cannot do [ poienv ] sin: “for God’s seed [which is the Holy Spirit or new nature] remains in him and it [God’s seed] is not able to sin.”
The truth is that believers are able to practice sin and become enslaved to it.
1 John 1:7–10 states, ” 7But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

Elsewhere in Scripture it is clear that believers can choose to practice sin. In Romans 6:12–13 Paul admonishes his readers, ” 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.” Paul’s admonition shows that it is possible for a believer to let sin reign in the body, but it also shows that it is possible for a believer to refuse to let sin reign. And in verses 14–16 Paul makes it clear that, while sin cannot cause God’s law to send believers to hell, choosing to sin can cause believers to become enslaved to it. He says, ” 14For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under the law but under grace. 15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?”

Paul’s admonition, however, does NOT imply that there is no observable difference in the behavior of a believer and that of an unbeliever. 1 John 3:10 explains, ” 10In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.” But this verse also explains that the primary observable difference between the behavior of a believer and that of an unbeliever involves love (or concern for the wellbeing) of other believers. 1 John 3:11–19 supports this understanding.
Because true believers possess God’s seed and it is not able to sin, their behavior will be observably different from that of unbelievers. This difference will be especially evident in their love and concern for other believers.

Bible Highlighter said:

James says show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works (James 2:18). So no. When you say there is no work in faith, this is simply not true. James disagrees with you. But lets take your example. Noah and his family built the Ark, which was a work of faith. If Noah did not take the action or work in building the Ark and he just had a belief alone like many today, Noah and his family would have perished in the global flood. 2 Peter 2:5-6 says that the flood is an example to all who would live ungodly thereafter. Yet, you are saying that everyone is ungodly. Peter does not agree with you. Peter makes it clear that the global flood was an example to all who live ungodly.

Click to expand...

You misunderstand. Yes, faith will produce good works, but the works are not faith, they are fruit. If Noah, as a righteous man, had perished in the flood, would he not have been saved from eternal damnation?

Bible Highlighter said:

I believe it is God who does the good work through the believer and it is not the believer who does the good work alone (Philippians 2:13) (John 15:5), but a believer does have to cooperate with GOD so as to allow Him to do the good work through them. But yes, these works of GOD in Sanctification do save, just as surely as the work of God on the cross saves.

1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
   
   
2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).
   
   
3. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
   
   
4. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9).

Click to expand...

In verse 22, James used the Greek word eteleiōthē to explain good works as the "completion," or the natural end result, of saving faith. James is urgently making the case that all those who are saved through faith by God's grace will participate in good works.
James has been consistent in upholding faith as necessary for salvation. This includes his quote in verse 23 that Abraham was counted as righteous for believing God.
Context is the key to all Bible study, and especially for resolving apparent contradictions. In Paul's writings, it is clear he is describing "justification" in the sense of salvation: being declared righteous by God. James, according to this context, is referring to "justification" in the sense of proof for human beings. Faith saves, says James, but "saving faith" cannot be a mere intellectual opinion, which produces no resulting actions.
Yes, the Spirit will produce results, but those results are not what saves.

CharismaticLady said:

I'm a fan of Wesley too. And I know that Adam and Eve didn't eat from the Tree of the Knowledge or Evil, but of Good and Evil.

What church father taught that all sin is willful. That's not true, and I wonder who originated that belief. It is such a common belief, it boggles my mind.

Click to expand...

What sin isn't willful? If I'm impatient with my wife, it's because my flesh is still active and caused my sharp words. If I neglect to be as loving as I should be, it's because of not living fully in the Spirit. It's still willful, even if it is just not doing the good we could do.

CharismaticLady said:

Trespasses are not willful. Leviticus 5:15

Click to expand...

Define a trespass. If it's still has to be atoned for, I'm not seeing any real difference. Why would the blood of Christ cover one sin and not another?

CharismaticLady said:

Yes, we still have free will, and can return to our own vomit. However, no one practicing willful sins of lawlessness will inherit the Kingdom of God.

Click to expand...

So, you have a situation where people are constantly losing and regaining their salvation, sometimes several times a day? That doesn't sound like we have an assurance at all, contrary to Romans 8:35-39

BNR32FAN said:

Eternal security was not taught in the church before the 16th century and has been refuted by every single church the apostles established. Do you believe that every church the apostles established were teaching a false gospel? I still haven’t seen your interpretation of John 15:1-10.

Click to expand...

Have you read this article on the history of Eternal Security before?

A Historical Examination of the Doctrine of Eternal Security - By Jeff Paton.

I found it to be informative.
Granted, one just has to read and believe the WHOLE counsel of God's Word to refute Eternal Security or Belief Alone-ism.

Bible Highlighter said:

Have you read this article on the history of Eternal Security before?

A Historical Examination of the Doctrine of Eternal Security - By Jeff Paton.

I found it to be informative.
Granted, one just has to read and believe the WHOLE counsel of God's Word to refute Eternal Security or Belief Alone-ism.

Click to expand...

I read some of it, pretty interesting.

CharismaticLady said:

Trespasses are not willful. Leviticus 5:15

Click to expand...

Btw, there's a very good explanation of sanctification in the Wesleyan tradition here :
Explaining How Sanctification Works...
Notice that it doesn't include sinlessness.

Oldmantook said:

***

Click to expand...

<OM>Nonsense! You have a one-track mind. As I explained already the kingdom does not end. Jesus' rule however does end when he subjugates himself to the Father and hands over the kingdom.Thus Jesus' reign ends AND despite that, kingdom has no end because the Father reins over it. ...
Wrong! Why look at the surrounding texts when the text itself provides the context? "They" and "them" refer to the saints - not the Godhead. The verse states God gives THEM light. As per your habit you have to twist the text in order to fit your rigid belief system.<OM>

***

Click to expand...

So according to you God reigns for ever and the saints reign forever but the reign of Jesus ends? although Jesus is on the throne with God? c.f. Luke 1:33 Revelation 11:3

BNR32FAN said:

If you really want to grow in knowledge of what the apostles actually taught it’s important to do the study. Reading the earliest church writings and studying the Greek words and definitions helps a ton. The Holy Spirit will teach everyone what is necessary to receive salvation but not specifically what the apostles actually taught. This is why Christians do not agree on doctrines. Some do the study and some don’t. The doctrines will not save or condemn a person. Both those who advocate eternal security or conditional salvation can truly serve God and receive salvation because it’s not the actions that saves the person but the motivation behind the actions that will save or condemn them. If the Holy Spirit taught us all that the apostles taught then there would either be only one denomination or only one denomination would be saved because only one denomination would possess the Holy Spirit. That simply is not the case. I’m a firm believer that there are truly saved Christians in a variety of denominations if not all of them.

Click to expand...

I agree that it is the motivations behind what a person believes that saves them. But a false belief or wrong doctrine will lead a person to think the wrong thing about the truth of God's Word and His plan of salvation for their lives. They will have a wrong view of "sin and salvation." So I disagree that a doctrine cannot condemn a person. Just denying the resurrection is a salvation issue according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. For the gospel that we stand upon is believing in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection for salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Note: Yes, I am aware that the disciples did not know about the resurrection until later, but I believe they were saved on that little knowledge they had until more truth was revealed. Once more truth was revealed, and included into God's program of salvation, it could then not be denied or rejected (with it then being a loss of salvation). It's like with the Trinity. A person can be saved without knowing about the Trinity, but in time, after they learn about the Trinity, they cannot reject such a truth. For Jesus says we must worship God in spirit and in truth.

Anyways, there are only two kingdoms. God's kingdom and the devil's kingdom.

1 Timothy 4:1 says,
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

James 4:6 says that God resists the proud and give grace to the humble. So a believer not accepting the doctrine of godliness is a serious problem to their standing in God's kingdom.

If we tell a child that their future sin is forgiven them, and we did not get a chance to say anything more to them, they could easily think we are teaching that God's grace is a license to sin (Whether we want that to happen or not), and if they justify sin later as an adult on the account of this wrong teaching, their blood would be on our hands for teaching them a false belief that can lead them into treating God's grace into a license for sin.

"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." (2 John 1:9-11).

It says he that abides not in the doctrine of Christ, has not God.
Does Eternal Security or Belief Alone-ism sound like the doctrine of Christ?

By reading the whole chapter of 2 John 1, we see a lay out of what the doctrine of Christ is being referred to as here.

There are four key important truths mentioned in 2 John 1 (that would be included or implied in the "doctrine of Christ" mentioned in this chapter - which would be the context).

#1. We need God's grace, mercy, and peace (2 John 1:3).
#2. We are to love one another (i.e. the brethren) (2 John 1:5).
#3. To love, we need to keep Christ's commandments & walk in them (2 John 1:6).
#4. We need to believe that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh (i.e. Believe in the Incarnation or that the Word was made flesh) (2 John 1:7).

Yes, the churches today accept grace, and they accept the Incarnation, but I think most churches do not accept the other aspect or truth in 2 John 1 in that they must keep the commandments as a part of love. Most teach today that they cannot keep God's commands and they will not stop sinning this side of Heaven.

Granted, there are people who attend these churches and have no clue as to what doctrines they even teach. They could be innocent, until they learn of the wrong teachings that they promote if the crack open their Bible and study it on their own in prayer with God. The church promoting that they could sin and still be saved could shake them to leave if they are pure of heart and they are not seeking to justify sin and evil.

renniks said:

You misunderstand. Yes, faith will produce good works, but the works are not faith, they are fruit. If Noah, as a righteous man, had perished in the flood, would he not have been saved from eternal damnation?

Click to expand...

Again, James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). Faith without works is dead (James 2:17). A dead faith cannot save anyone. A person is faithless if they do not produce works of faith. In other words, a person's faith is fake if they are not truly doing the work of faith.

For example: If Rick said that his old rocking chair on his porch was able to hold his weight, and he said he believed that with all his heart, would he truly be showing forth that his statement of faith was true if he never sat in the chair? Especially if he was asked to sit in it and yet he refused to do so? In other words, if Rick believed that his porch chair would hold his weight (and he told others this), he would no doubt take the action necessary by sitting in that chair to prove that such a statement was true. Otherwise it would just be an empty profession of faith. In other words, if a person says they love God, and they have no visible good fruit to show that such a thing is true, then it would be just an empty profession of faith that they love God. Meaning, they really do not love God. It would just be a paying of lip service. I mean, a man can say he loves his wife, but if he does nothing to please her in any way, then he really does not love her. Action shows forth whether one's faith is the genuine and the real article vs. it being fake.