You did not chose Me, I chose you.

renniks

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Because they also worked iniquity or lawlessness. It is more than just having good works. A person has to live holy and or be pure of heart. Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Matthew 5:8 says, "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God."

The way to know God is to find if we are keeping His commandments.

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments" (1 John 2:3).

The person who says they know Jesus and does not keep His commandments is a liar and truth (Jesus is the truth - Jhn 14:6) is not in them.

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him"
(1 John 2:4).

A person has to have the Son in order to have life (See 1 John 5:12). Jesus is the truth that needs to be in them.
This doesn't explain what was actually said.
They could not have NEVER known him, if initial salvation is through faith alone.
 
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renniks

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What you fail to realize is that verse 6 in 2 Peter 2 says that the global flood and Sodom were all examples to those who live ungodly thereafter. So yeah. Sin destroys. It destroyed whole cities and an entire world.
That section also called Lot a righteous man. I thought that was very generous, given some of the sins he indulged in.
 
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This doesn't explain what was actually said.
They could not have NEVER known him, if initial salvation is through faith alone.

I see two possibilities for this.

Possibility #1. They never truly sought forgiveness with the Lord with a godly sorrow whereby they were not seeking to justify sin. Meaning, there are some who accept the gospel fully being aware that no sin in the future can condemn them, and or no sin can cause spiritual death for them if they accept Christ as their Savior. So in this case: Christ never knew this kind of believer.

Possibility #2. God associates with righteous behaving believers and not anyone who does not righteousness (See: 1 John 2:29, and 1 John 3:10). In Ezekiel 18:24, it says: "But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die." So seeing God associates with righteous believers by the fact that they do righteousness (1 John 3:7, 1 John 2:29, 1 John 3:10), if they turn away from their righteousness, all their previous righteous works will not be remembered. So if there is no more righteous works to no longer remember, then God will no longer remember them because God associates with those who currently do righteousness and not sin. So the Lord can say He never knew them because their righteousness (by which He associates with them by) will no longer be remembered on the account of their current unrepentant sin or acceptance of a wrong belief or gospel that leads others into sin. For if I tell a child that their future sin is forgiven them, and then I never see them again, they could turn out to be the next George Sodini who committed mass murder and suicide (and write a letter about how they were saved by Jesus despite such evil acts).

Side Note:

Please take no offense in what I write personally. This is not about any one person here. This is simply my view of sin and salvation.
 
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renniks

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I want to ask you a serious question about "total depravity" Does that belief include both before and after coming to Christ, or just before. I've never gotten that straight.
Me neither. If you're asking what I believe about it, I'm more in line with Wesley's version.
Wesley didn’t simply claim every action of a non-Christian’s life would be utterly degenerate. He was well aware that non-Christians did good things. What he meant was that our nature has been corrupted by sin. “In his natural state every man born into the world is a rank idolater” (II.7). This is very similar to Calvin’s claim that the human heart is a factory for the making of idols.
But I think Calvinist tend to take it further, in general.
 
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renniks

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Meaning, there are some who accept the gospel fully being aware that no sin in the future can condemn them, and or no sin can cause spiritual death for them if they accept Christ as their Savior. So in this case: Christ never knew this kind of believer.
That doesn't make any sense. If they were truly a believer Christ knew them, regardless whether they had every nuance of their theology right.
 
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For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans chapter four: verse 4, and
Works of Earning Money vs.
Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift.


To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).​

So yes. I agree. Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Works Alone Salvationism is wrong because one has no grace or rest ever. This would purely be a works based system of salvation with no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if one messes up. A person’s good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you an example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

Here is another example:

If Billy-Bob prayed for a wife for many years and he eventually receive a wife from the Lord and consider her as a gift, then that does not mean Billy-Bob can cheat on her and or not love her and expect for her to stay with him. It is the same with God. Disloyalty to GOD means we do not really love GOD and we just love ourselves more than Him. GOD calls us to obedience to His Word. This was the problem that goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden. But men today want to say that we can break God's commands and they will not die. This was the same lie that the enemy was trying to sell Eve on. The serpent told her that she would not die if she ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Which was a violation of God's command).

Anyways, in conclusion:

We know that working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all. But men today confuse the issue to justify sin under God’s grace (Which is what Jude 1:4 warns against).
 
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That doesn't make any sense. If they were truly a believer Christ knew them, regardless whether they had every nuance of their theology right.

It makes perfect sense.

Either....

(a) Christ never truly knew them by the fact that they were accepting ahead of time that they could sin after being a Christian (in their acceptance of Jesus), means they were accepting a false Jesus or gospel, or...

(b) Based on 1 John 2:29, 1 John 3:10, and Ezekiel 18:24, we know that God associates with righteous believers, and that if they turn from their righteousness, their previous righteousness will not be remembered anymore. If there is no more remembrance of any righteousness it will be as if God never knew them because God associates with righteousness by the believer.
 
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renniks

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"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).
" However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness."

Not everyone can do works. Faith is enough.
BTW, we are talking about Abraham here. He sinned quite a lot and didn't lose his salvation.
 
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This doesn't explain what was actually said.
They could not have NEVER known him, if initial salvation is through faith alone.

Also, you are ignoring the facts. Jesus cast them out because they worked iniquity or lawlessness. Those who know God keep His commandments according to 1 John 2:3. So those in Matthew 7:23 either never knew God because they always thought they could disobey God and be saved, or they fell under the truth expressed in Ezekiel 18:24.

The problem in your view is how can this believer be cast out because of iniquity or sin when in your view that iniquity or lawlessness is not a salvation issue?
 
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" However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness."

This is referring to their PAST sins that they sought forgiveness over.
This is not a covering of future evils (Which make a person think that God's grace was a license for immorality by which Jude 1:4 warns us about).

You said:
Not everyone can do works. Faith is enough.

Babies who die in the womb are saved. They did not have faith, but they were saved by Christ's sacrifice. Yet, others do need to have faith. This means that salvation is not a one size fit all kind of package. Others do need to live out their faith vs. those who accept Christ on their deathbeds.

James says show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works (James 2:18). For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).

You said:
BTW, we are talking about Abraham here. He sinned quite a lot and didn't lose his salvation.

Chapter and verse(s) please.
 
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bobsmename

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Gods grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (See Titus 2:11-12). Your version of grace does not teach that because it teaches that one can sin and still be saved on some level. God also remembers no more a believer's PAST sins and not future sins. Nowhere does the Bible teach that future sin is forgiven for a believer. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Ooops. I guess got forgot to about remembering their sins no more in this case, right? See, that is why future sin is not forgiven a believer. It would lead to turning God's grace into a license for immorality (of which Jude 1:4 warns against).
You contradict yourself all over the place. You believe you can sin and still be saved, you just call them minor sins that will not bar you from heaven. It is one rule for you and one rule for everyone else, it is called hypocrisy. If Jesus only died for past sins you must live your life under righteousness of obeying the law, Paul repeatedly states you do not, and he used a moral law to reinforce that/gave a moral law as an example of that!
But conversation with you is pointless, you preach a cruel and harsh Gospel that neglects the great love, mercy and compassion of God for his children. And I am afraid to say, that is reflected in your attitude. Best thing is for us to leave it here.
 
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You contradict yourself all over the place. You believe you can sin and still be saved, you just call them minor sins that will not bar you from heaven. It is one rule for you and one rule for everyone else, it is called hypocrisy. If Jesus only died for past sins you must live your life under righteousness of obeying the law, Paul repeatedly states you do not, and he used a moral law to reinforce that/gave a moral law as an example of that!
But conversation with you is pointless, you preach a cruel and harsh Gospel that neglects the great love, mercy and compassion of God for his children. And I am afraid to say, that is reflected in your attitude. Best thing is for us to leave it here.

That's like the kettle calling the pot, "black." I already pointed out the inconsistency (or contradiction) of morality in your view of Soteriology (of which the Bible does not agree with your view or standard on).

Also, I already pointed out to you that not all sins condemn according to the Bible. This is not hypocrisy but simply a truth in the Bible. Not all sin leads to death (1 John 5:16-17). But believe as you wish. I am confident in what His Word says. You have to explain away or ignore tons of verses on how we are saved by Sanctification (after Justification). I don't have to do that.
 
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bobsmename

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That section also called Lot a righteous man. I thought that was very generous, given some of the sins he indulged in.
Noah got drunk, and Abraham lied and passed his wife off as his sister, resulting in Pharoah taking her into his house to be his wife. Its hard to see how some believe they could ever inherit eternal life!
 
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bobsmename

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That's like the kettle calling the pot, "black." I already pointed out the inconsistency (or contradiction) of morality in your view of Soteriology (of which the Bible does not agree with your view or standard on).

Also, I already pointed out to you that not all sins condemn according to the Bible. This is not hypocrisy but simply a truth in the Bible. Not all sin leads to death (1 John 5:16-17). But believe as you wish. I am confident in what His Word says. You have to explain away or ignore tons of verses on how we are saved by Sanctification (after Justification). I don't have to do that.
so if not all sin condemns you believe you can sin and still be saved in some regard don't you. Yet on the other hand you say you cannot sin and still be saved, then you say I am inconsistent if I say you can sin and still be saved.
Then you know you do not even try and obey all of Christs commands which you believe it is sin not to do for that is part of your righteousness to enter heaven. I am confident in your confusion
 
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Noah got drunk,

Noah did not remain as a drunkard, though. Big difference.

You said:
and Abraham lied and passed his wife off as his sister, resulting in Pharoah taking her into his house to be his wife.

Actually, no. Abraham did not lie. Sarah was his half sister. So he did not lie in saying that she was his sister. It was a true statement. Not telling the whole truth on something is not lying. Jesus did not reveal to everyone that He was GOD, and he even evaded on pushing the issue that he was God with the Pharisees so as to protect His mission in going to the cross. Jesus told the Pharisees that they were "gods" (kings) according to Scripture. It was a deflection to protect His mission. Yes, Jesus is GOD. He truly did mean to declare that. But Jesus did not want to keep pushing the issue with them.

You said:
Its hard to see how some believe they could ever inherit eternal life!

God gives His people space and time to repent and to overcome grievous sin in time. Some of His people make it into His Kingdom by the skin of their teeth. Only God is aware of a person's heart and what they will ultimately do. But if a person is seeking to disobey God as a part of His kingdom, their true loyalty is not to God but to their disobedience that they defend tooth and nail for.
 
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bobsmename

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This is referring to their PAST sins that they sought forgiveness over.
This is not a covering of future evils (Which make a person think that God's grace was a license for immorality by which Jude 1:4 warns us about).



Babies who die in the womb are saved. They did not have faith, but they were saved by Christ's sacrifice. Yet, others do need to have faith. This means that salvation is not a one size fit all kind of package. Others do need to live out their faith vs. those who accept Christ on their deathbeds.

James says show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works (James 2:18). For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).



Chapter and verse(s) please.
Ive a question for you. When the Israelites wandered through the wilderness, a man collected firewood on the Sabbath. God said he must immediately be stoned to death. David broke three of the Ten Commandments one after the other concerning Bathsheeba, coveting, adultery, murder. Why was David forgiven but the other man killed?
 
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so if not all sin condemns you believe you can sin and still be saved in some regard don't you. Yet on the other hand you say you cannot sin and still be saved, then you say I am inconsistent if I say you can sin and still be saved.
Then you know you do not even try and obey all of Christs commands which you believe it is sin not to do for that is part of your righteousness to enter heaven. I am confident in your confusion

The Bible says there is a sin not unto death (1 John 5:16-17). There are commands that are not attached with warnings of burning in the Lake of Fire if we do not keep them unlike other commands. I did not write these commands either. Yet, I believe them. Do you? It does not appear so.
 
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bobsmename

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Noah did not remain as drunkard, though. Big difference.



Actually, no. Abraham did not lie. Sarah was his half sister. So he did not lie in saying that she was his sister. It was a true statement. Not telling the whole truth on something is not lying. Jesus did not reveal to everyone that He was GOD, and he even evaded on pushing the issue that he was God with the Pharisees so as to protect His mission in going to the cross. Jesus told the Pharisees that they were "gods" (kings) according to Scripture. It was a deflection to protect His mission. Yes, Jesus is GOD. He truly did mean to declare that. But Jesus did not want to keep pushing the issue with them.



God gives His people space and time to repent and to overcome grievous sin in time. Some of His people make into His Kingdom by the skin of their teeth. Only God is aware of a person's heart and what they will ultimately do. But if a person is seeking to disobey God as a part of His kingdom, their true loyalty is not to God but to their disobedience that they defend tooth and nail for.
Abraham didn't lie eh? Well OK, if that's how you want to see it
 
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