The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

HatGuy

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Also, if OSAS isn't true, then is it fair to say that we are saved by grace but STAY saved by our own works? In which case, we don't really receive eternal life by faith alone-but maybe the possibility of eternal life (if our works are good)? It's a confusing topic for me because there are verses that suggest OSAS is true and verses that suggest it is not. And since the bible can't contradict itself (right?), I must be missing something.
The way I've resolved this is to note that IF salvation can be lost, it is lost due to a complete loss of faith, not by sin. A complete, willfull loss of faith in Christ is INCREDIBLY difficult to do. It's not doubt or faith struggle, it is a wilful rejection. Luther's view was similar.

Of course, one might argue that sin in someone's life is a sign of loss of faith, but this is usually not true. People can often sin due to emotional problems, stress, being unloved etc. I think sin is far more complicated, which is why the word used for healing in the Bible "sozo" is used for both physical healing and spiritual salvation - because we need to be delivered and set free from our sins. No amount of 'right choice' is enough; what is enough is the power of Christ and His Word!
 
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Neogaia777

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No good works, and/or sin in your life, could maybe be a "risk" to someone's salvation "maybe", but no one except God can know or judge for sure, etc...

But, we can be sure that He (God) does judge righteously and truly justly, and I'm sure He does that on and individual, case by case basis, knowing every detail of all of those each individually in full, etc...

Hope that helps.

God Bless!
The Bible says some receive a heavier judgement than some others, etc, which would assume some may receive a lighter judgement than some others, etc... When in reality though, it is the same level of judgement for all, but just each one according to his or here own ability, or abilities and/or inabilities, etc...

So, it's more than perfectly just, etc...

So, again, no good works at all, and/or sin in your life at all, can be a possible risk to your salvation IOW's, but only God can know that and/or judge that perfectly righteously and perfectly truly justly for sure...

And, He will one day, etc...

I just get really upset when man thinks he can, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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The way I've resolved this is to note that IF salvation can be lost, it is lost due to a complete loss of faith, not by sin. A complete, willfull loss of faith in Christ is INCREDIBLY difficult to do. It's not doubt or faith struggle, it is a wilful rejection. Luther's view was similar.

Of course, one might argue that sin in someone's life is a sign of loss of faith, but this is usually not true. People can often sin due to emotional problems, stress, being unloved etc. I think sin is far more complicated, which is why the word used for healing in the Bible "sozo" is used for both physical healing and spiritual salvation - because we need to be delivered and set free from our sins. No amount of 'right choice' is enough; what is enough is the power of Christ and His Word!
Yes, and @Emsmom1, what we are calling "sin" here, and what man considers very bad or the worst, is oftentimes much different from what God considers the most bad or very worst, etc... And the sin of "unbelief" seems to big in God's book...

But, that being said, man focuses a lot on "externals" for one thing, while God's judgement is more a matter of internals or "of the heart", etc, but even then, He is still probably going to judge on and individual case by case basis and according to each one's own unique abilities or inabilities, and how He made them or each one each individually, etc, regardless of what sins He considers better, or maybe I should say "lighter" or of "lesser consequence" maybe, and/or worse, or "the worst", or of "much worse consequence" maybe, etc...

For He knows all, and all about each one fully each individually, and so can judge truly righteously and justly that way, but man cannot, and it really upsets me when man thinks he can, or they can, etc...

Man is all too often is such a very, very poor, "infantile judge" in this area, as His ideas of what kinds of sins are heavier and/or lighter, etc, are way off from God's much of the time, and man cannot, or all to often does not, and just "cannot", consider each one on and individual case by case basis truly justly ever either, for how could he, and how could he ever do that rightly or truly justly ever, etc...? He just "can't" ever, is my point, etc... Only God can ever, etc...

And, on an individual case by case basis according to each one unique abilities or inabilities, God may consider one specific kind of sin heavier or lighter or of lesser or greater consequence in one person's life, than that same exact kind of sin in another person's life, etc, or different kinds of sins differently in each individuals different lives of each individual differently, etc...

But we can rest assured that it will be truly justly, etc, far, far different from the way man judges, or "knows" (of) etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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MDC

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As a new believer, I've read this thread with interest. I have a question (sincere, not snarky)-what is the difference between the salvation spoken of by Bible Highlighter (grace + works, as I understand it) and the soteriology of the Catholic Church?
Also, if OSAS isn't true, then is it fair to say that we are saved by grace but STAY saved by our own works? In which case, we don't really receive eternal life by faith alone-but maybe the possibility of eternal life (if our works are good)? It's a confusing topic for me because there are verses that suggest OSAS is true and verses that suggest it is not. And since the bible can't contradict itself (right?), I must be missing something.
The soteriology is the same. If any professing christian believes their works in any way whatsoever is needed or forms the basis for their salvation is included into this group. Grace is nullified and the cross is nullified. Paul battled the Judaizers for the same reason. Your assessment is correct. Christ justifies. And the basis for this justification are the merits of Christ alone received by faith alone by Gods Sovereign elective grace alone
 
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Neogaia777

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Another way of putting it is, He knows how much and in what areas and to how much and to what, greater of lesser degrees, in what areas, or in one or more areas than another or other areas, etc, each one each individually should be held more or less responsible or accountable than others or another in each area or another, etc, each one each uniquely individually according to how He made each one each uniquely individually or specifically, etc...

His judgments will be truly just, trust me, K...

Much more so than "man's" are, etc...

But, is a "risk" if your sinning away or not ever doing anything good ever, it very well could be, but I'm not the judge, and neither is any other just mere man either, etc...

And I'd stay very far away from those who think they are, or can, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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Bible Highlighter

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As a new believer, I've read this thread with interest. I have a question (sincere, not snarky)-what is the difference between the salvation spoken of by Bible Highlighter (grace + works, as I understand it) and the soteriology of the Catholic Church?
Also, if OSAS isn't true, then is it fair to say that we are saved by grace but STAY saved by our own works? In which case, we don't really receive eternal life by faith alone-but maybe the possibility of eternal life (if our works are good)? It's a confusing topic for me because there are verses that suggest OSAS is true and verses that suggest it is not. And since the bible can't contradict itself (right?), I must be missing something.

The Catholics believe in the Trinity, but that does not invalidate the Trinity just because Catholics believe in it. The Trinity is still true according to the Bible. I do not agree with Catholics view on how we are saved by the sacraments. I believe the Bible is my one and only authority (unlike Catholics). For the Bible is the only holy book that has the evidences that back it up that shows that it is divine in origin (See my Blogger article here to learn more on evidences that back up the Bible). Anyways, I believe the Bible teaches that Sanctification plays a part in the salvation process. This is not my opinion or thinking alone but it is what the Bible plainly teaches.

When I read the Scriptures, I see 4 different aspects of salvation described.

#1. Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.).

#2. Justification (Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Justification is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Justification is believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, was buried, and had risen again three days later on your behalf, and accepting Jesus as your Savior, and seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer. This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). (For Justification verses, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#3. Sanctification (The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work (because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

#4. Glorification (The Future Salvation of the Truly Faithful Believer).
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
Glorification is when God takes the believer home to be with Him in His kingdom and He gives Him a new resurrected body that is not tainted by sin. This process of salvation (in being taken home) is a by product automatically for those believers who properly applied Justification and Sanctification to their lives (For Glorification verses, see: 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Peter 1:4, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Romans 13:11, Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 9:28).


Conclusion:

Justification, and then Sanctification is what we as believers need to be focused on. For if we are justified, and sanctified (which is only made possible by the Provisional Atonement), then we will be glorified.
 
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As a new believer, I've read this thread with interest. I have a question (sincere, not snarky)-what is the difference between the salvation spoken of by Bible Highlighter (grace + works, as I understand it) and the soteriology of the Catholic Church?
Also, if OSAS isn't true, then is it fair to say that we are saved by grace but STAY saved by our own works? In which case, we don't really receive eternal life by faith alone-but maybe the possibility of eternal life (if our works are good)? It's a confusing topic for me because there are verses that suggest OSAS is true and verses that suggest it is not. And since the bible can't contradict itself (right?), I must be missing something.

I believe that we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ (and believing in His death and resurrection on our behalf for salvation, and seeking forgiveness with Him) and it is not by "Works Alone Salvationism" that does not include God's grace and mercy (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Titus 3:5). For if we stumble into sin, do we get clean by doing a good work? No. We get clean and forgiven (saved) again by God's grace. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9, cf. 1 John 2:1). But after we are saved by God's grace, I believe that we need to bring forth "works of faith" (obedience to Christ's commands) as a part of the Sanctification process (i.e. the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives to make us holy) in the next step or stage in the salvation process. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says, "...God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." James 2:24 says we are justified by works and not by faith alone. Paul says, “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13). Paul also says we can deny God by a lack of works in our life (Titus 1:16).
 
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Neogaia777

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The soteriology is the same. If any professing christian believes their works in any way whatsoever is needed or forms the basis for their salvation is included into this group. Grace is nullified and the cross is nullified. Paul battled the Judaizers for the same reason. Your assessment is correct. Christ justifies. And the basis for this justification are the merits of Christ alone received by faith alone by Gods Sovereign elective grace alone
Can we know what that will "look like", or are we not supposed to know what that will "look like" at all ever, etc...?

Are we in any way responsible for the "faith" part, or is that also all "God alone" also...? And does it take a certain level or a certain kind of "faith", etc...?

I guess what I am saying is, are we responsible for "any of it at all ever", etc...?

And if not at all ever, and if we cannot know what it looks like even ever, then how is it even possible for us to know how God chooses at all ever, etc...? And then are we even supposed to ever know how or on what basis God chooses or predestines, or chooses at all ever, etc...?

And if we can't know "any of it at all" then "what"...? Or "what follows that" afterward, etc...?

God Bless!
 
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As a new believer, I've read this thread with interest. I have a question (sincere, not snarky)-what is the difference between the salvation spoken of by Bible Highlighter (grace + works, as I understand it) and the soteriology of the Catholic Church?
Also, if OSAS isn't true, then is it fair to say that we are saved by grace but STAY saved by our own works? In which case, we don't really receive eternal life by faith alone-but maybe the possibility of eternal life (if our works are good)? It's a confusing topic for me because there are verses that suggest OSAS is true and verses that suggest it is not. And since the bible can't contradict itself (right?), I must be missing something.

Legalism, and other terms are charges that gets thrown a lot by many. It means different things to many people. According to God's Word: It is not legalism to obey God, and or to enter the Sanctification Process as a part of salvation (After we are saved by God's grace).


After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:



(Here are a List of Verses):


#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Supplemental verse:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).​

#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Supplemental verses:

(a) “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

(b) “...and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).​

#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

Supplemental verse:

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).​

#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

(b) “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).​

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

(b) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

(c) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).​

#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

Supplementary verse:

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication” (1 Thessalonians 4:3).​

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).

Supplementary verses:

(a) “Bring forth therefore fruits befitting for repentance” (Matthew 3:8).

(b) “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).​

#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).
 
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To all:

In good conscience, I cannot re-write the verses in post #429. They mean what they plainly say. We are saved by "Justification" (God's grace through faith without the deeds of the Law because we are saved by His mercy), and we are also saved by "Sanctification" (Living holy by the power of God working through us and not by our own effort alone).
 
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Neogaia777

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Can we know what that will "look like", or are we not supposed to know what that will "look like" at all ever, etc...?

Are we in any way responsible for the "faith" part, or is that also all "God alone" also...? And does it take a certain level or a certain kind of "faith", etc...?

I guess what I am saying is, are we responsible for "any of it at all ever", etc...?

And if not at all ever, and if we cannot know what it looks like even ever, then how is it even possible for us to know how God chooses at all ever, etc...? And then are we even supposed to ever know how or on what basis God chooses or predestines, or chooses at all ever, etc...?

And if we can't know "any of it at all" then "what"...? Or "what follows that" afterward, etc...?

God Bless!
@MDC I'm not trying to antagonistic, not at all, so I really hope you do not take it that way...?

I'm just trying to get down to truth, I guess what I'm really trying to say and/or figure out is: Is there really any kind of basis for which we, mere men, can judge "anything at all" ever really...?

Cause if there is not, and there is not at all ever, etc, then, "what follows after that", etc...?

I currently "do not know" in this area and am just trying to figure it out, etc...?

I think I can allude to how God might judge, but as far as us judging, that I'm not so sure of right now...?

Are we truly never judge not even ever one thing, and ever, etc...?

Because, if so, (if were never to judge not even one thing ever) then, what follows, etc...?

And, If not, (if we are to judge some things sometimes, or every once in awhile, etc) then, what follows "that", etc...? (what or when are we to judge a thing, and what things when, etc, and when and what "not" (to judge a thing), etc)...?

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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Bible Highlighter

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As a new believer, I've read this thread with interest. I have a question (sincere, not snarky)-what is the difference between the salvation spoken of by Bible Highlighter (grace + works, as I understand it) and the soteriology of the Catholic Church?
Also, if OSAS isn't true, then is it fair to say that we are saved by grace but STAY saved by our own works? In which case, we don't really receive eternal life by faith alone-but maybe the possibility of eternal life (if our works are good)? It's a confusing topic for me because there are verses that suggest OSAS is true and verses that suggest it is not. And since the bible can't contradict itself (right?), I must be missing something.

Confusion arises a lot on this issue because folks do not understand that when they read Paul in the book of Romans, Galatians, and Corinthians, they do not realize that Paul was referring to the 613 laws of Moses as a whole or contract when he used the word "law" or "works." (Note: Just look at the surrounding words or chapters and this is evident). The Old Law is no more, because Jesus told His disciples at the Lord's supper it would soon vanish away (Hebrews 8:13), and it did when the temple veil was torn when He died upon the cross the next day. When Paul condemns the Law and or works, he is not referring to the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), neither the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2), neither the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25), neither the command to believe in Jesus (1 John 3:23), and neither the new command Christ gave us to love one another (i.e. to love the brethren) in the way He loved them (John 13:34). In other words, the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12). Believers are under a New Covenant with New Commands.

Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Romans 4:2-5 are referring to the Justification Process of salvation (Which is how we are initially and ultimately saved), and it is not referring to the Sanctification Process of salvation that comes later. Sanctification is not a process of salvation whereby we can boast in ourselves but we boast in God by the fact that He does the good work through us.
 
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Neogaia777

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@MDC I'm not trying to antagonistic, not at all, so I really hope you do not take it that way...?

I'm just trying to get down to truth, I guess what I'm really trying to say and/or figure out is: Is there really any kind of basis for which we, mere men, can judge "anything at all" ever really...?

Cause if there is not, and there is not at all ever, etc, then, "what follows after that", etc...?

I currently "do not know" in this area and am just trying to figure it out, etc...?

I think I can allude to how God might judge, but as far as us judging, that I'm not so sure of right now...?

Are we truly never judge not even ever one thing, and ever, etc...?

Because, if so, (if were never to judge not even one thing ever) then, what follows, etc...?

And, If not, (if we are to judge some things sometimes, or every once in awhile, etc) then, what follows "that", etc...? (what or when are we to judge a thing, and what things when, etc, and when and what "not" (to judge a thing), etc)...?

Anyway,

God Bless!
I do think we should judge "very, very sparingly", many are "all and way too quick to judge before they have even thought a matter through yet", and that never ends well, and always spells inevitable disaster, etc...

Most of them are most definitely not "judging with righteous judgement" hardly ever at all ever, etc, like 99.9% of them most of the time, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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MDC

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@MDC I'm not trying to antagonistic, not at all, so I really hope you do not take it that way...?

I'm just trying to get down to truth, I guess what I'm really trying to say and/or figure out is: Is there really any kind of basis for which we, mere men, can judge "anything at all" ever really...?

Cause if there is not, and there is not at all ever, etc, then, "what follows after that", etc...?

I currently "do not know" in this area and am just trying to figure it out, etc...?

I think I can allude to how God might judge, but as far as us judging, that I'm not so sure of right now...?

Are we truly never judge not even ever one thing, and ever, etc...?

If so, what follows, etc...?

If not, what follows, etc...?

Anyway,

God Bless!
I know Gods people have no confidence in the flesh nor their works and count all things lost for sake of Christ. Gods people rest in Christ alone. The opposition to this is what is being espoused by many like bible highlighter. Would Paul’s judgement on the Judaizers be correct? If so then I believe judgement on this doctrine is correct. I’m not sure if I completely answered your questions though
 
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Neogaia777

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I know Gods people have no confidence in the flesh nor their works and count all things lost for sake of Christ. Gods people rest in Christ alone. The opposition to this is what is being espoused by many like bible highlighter. Would Paul’s judgement on the Judaizers be correct? If so then I believe judgement on this doctrine is correct. I’m not sure if I completely answered your questions though
Yeah...

I'm reminded of this scripture...

James 2:13- "For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown (judgement with) no mercy (or without mercy). Mercy triumphs over judgment.

"Mercy" also being one who is judging without compassion or love, or true understanding or forgiveness, or without thinking a matter through fully first and fully considering those things first, etc...

"Judgment" could also be "death" also, "He who deals out death and judgement without mercy", etc, "life and death are in the power of the tongue", etc, or the words you choose to use, etc, "And by your own words", etc, etc, etc, so on and so forth, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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As a new believer, I've read this thread with interest. I have a question (sincere, not snarky)-what is the difference between the salvation spoken of by Bible Highlighter (grace + works, as I understand it) and the soteriology of the Catholic Church? Also, if OSAS isn't true, then is it fair to say that we are saved by grace but STAY saved by our own works? In which case, we don't really receive eternal life by faith alone-but maybe the possibility of eternal life (if our works are good)? It's a confusing topic for me because there are verses that suggest OSAS is true and verses that suggest it is not. And since the bible can't contradict itself (right?), I must be missing something.
Try considering the fact that the tiny little NT word "believe"
means one heck of a lot more than just plain olde "believe".
I.E. one word just doesn't cut it ... in any language ... IMPOSSIBLE!

The whole of the NT teaches us that the "believe" of John 3:16, etc.
MUST include such goodies as the following:

ENDURING
...
- in the faith
- trust
- obedience
- practicing righteousness
- repentance
- sanctification unto holiness

Yes, the NT teaches us that True Saving Belief embraces all of the above!
 
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Bible Highlighter

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I know Gods people have no confidence in the flesh

When you read Philippians 3:3 that says, "...and have no confidence in the flesh," we have to read that in context.

"Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." (Philippians 3:4-6).​

In other words, Paul is referring to his time as a Pharisee when he took confidence in the 613 laws of Moses as a means for his salvation and not faith in Jesus Christ. We are not under the Law (Romans 6:14). This would be the Law of Moses. We are not justified by the Law of Moses (Acts of the Apostles 13:39).

"And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses." (Acts of the Apostles 13:39).​

Paul is not referring to the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2), or the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25), or the command to believe in Jesus (1 John 3:23), or the new commandment that Jesus gave us to love the brethren in the way that He loved them (John 13:34).

If Paul spoke against the words of Jesus and or the doctrine according to godliness, he would have contradicted himself because he said that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (See: 1 Timothy 6:3-4).

You said:
I know Gods people have no confidence in... their works

That does not sound like what the Bible says.

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Philippians 1:6).

"Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God." (Philippians 1:11).

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:12-13).

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16).

20 "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." (Hebrews 13:20-21).

"11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:" (2 Thessalonians 1:11).

You said:
...and count all things lost for sake of Christ.

"Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ," (Philippians 3:8).​

As I just pointed out (within the beginning of this post), the context of the beginning part of Philippians 3 is dealing with when Paul referring to when he was a Pharisee outside of having faith in Jesus Christ. There was no grace through faith in Christ in the Pharisee religion but it was all "Law Alone Salvationism" (without God's grace) via by the 613 laws of Moses. Paul was not referring to the commands of Jesus and His followers.

You said:
Gods people rest in Christ alone.

Right, and the fruits of righteousness are by Jesus Christ.

"Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God." (Philippians 1:11).

Paul says we have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16).
But the Eternal Security Proponent or Belief Alone Proponent seeks to justify sin on some level under God's grace. Jesus never justified sin or evil on any level.

You said:
The opposition to this is what is being espoused by many like bible highlighter.

Actually, not very many Sola Scriptura churches teach that we are saved by God's Grace and Sanctification. There are only 2-3 that I can think of, and they are not the predominant churches here in America like Protestant churches out there that think folks can sin and still be saved. I did some searching around. These are the only big ones that I know of.

  1. Christ’s Sanctified Holy Church: Christ's Sanctified Holy Church-Holiness unto the Lord

  2. International Fellowship of Bible Churches International Fellowship of Bible Churches

  3. Salvation Army. What We Believe - The Salvation Army USA

These churches are not in the majority.

Granted, there are problems even with two of these churches (listed here), but the point here is that not many Sola Scriptura Christians believe we are saved by God's Grace and Sanctification.

But Jesus said narrow is the way and FEW be there that find it (See: Matthew 7:13-14).

Matthew 7:13-14 is not said in context to a sin and still be saved by believing in Jesus type teaching but it is said amongst righteous instruction and warnings against how sin can destroy our souls.

You said:
Would Paul’s judgement on the Judaizers be correct? If so then I believe judgement on this doctrine is correct.

Again, the context is Paul condemning one in being justified by the Law of Moses without God's grace through faith, and not all forms of Law while under God's grace. The Judaizers who were seeking to deceive Gentile Christians were desire them to be circumcised in order to be saved, and to follow the Law of Moses (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). They were Jewish people who did not follow Jesus and thus they would not have promoted any of the commands that came from Jesus Christ and His followers.
 
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Try considering the fact that the tiny little NT word "believe"
means one heck of a lot more than just plain olde "believe".
I.E. one word just doesn't cut it ... in any language ... IMPOSSIBLE!

The whole of the NT teaches us that the "believe" of John 3:16, etc.
MUST include such goodies as the following:

ENDURING
...
- in the faith
- trust
- obedience
- practicing righteousness
- repentance
- sanctification unto holiness

Yes, the NT teaches us that True Saving Belief embraces all of the above!

James says show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works (James 2:18). This is important because faith without works is dead (James 2:17). A dead faith cannot save anyone. For the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30).
 
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Legalism, and other terms are charges that gets thrown a lot by many. It means different things to many people. According to God's Word: It is not legalism to obey God, and or to enter the Sanctification Process as a part of salvation (After we are saved by God's grace).


After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:



(Here are a List of Verses):


#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Supplemental verse:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).​

#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Supplemental verses:

(a) “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

(b) “...and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).​

#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

Supplemental verse:

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).​

#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

(b) “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).​

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

(b) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

(c) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).​

#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

Supplementary verse:

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication” (1 Thessalonians 4:3).​

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).

Supplementary verses:

(a) “Bring forth therefore fruits befitting for repentance” (Matthew 3:8).

(b) “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).​

#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).
Christ’s works alone merits all of salvation. If one believes his works are required for salvation then one cannot believe Christ is sufficient to save. If one doesn’t believe Christ’s blood and righteousness aren’t sufficient to save apart from his or her works then one has not come to see their need for a Savior. If one has not come to see their need for a Savior then one has not come to see their own sinful wretched self guilty before God and in need of mercy. So I say again if one sees his works in anyway meritorious towards the grounds of salvation then this person has not come to repentance by casting himself on Christ for redemption and deliverance from sin
 
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Christ’s works alone merits all of salvation. If one believes his works are required for salvation then one cannot believe Christ is sufficient to save. If one doesn’t believe Christ’s blood and righteousness aren’t sufficient to save apart from his or her works then one has not come to see their need for a Savior. If one has not come to see their need for a Savior then one has not come to see their own sinful wretched self guilty before God and in need of mercy. So I say again if one sees his works in anyway meritorious towards the grounds of salvation then this person has not come to repentance by casting himself on Christ for redemption and deliverance from sin

Sure, we need to believe in the blood for salvation (Romans 3:25), but we also need to walk in the light as He is in the light so that the blood of Jesus cleanses from all sin, too (See 1 John 1:7). So no. It is not a belief alone in Jesus that saves. That is not the kind of faith Jesus accepts in Matthew 7:23, and Matthew 7:26-27.
 
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