When did the Old Covenant truly "disappear" and end?

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sovereigngrace

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It will seem like a "theological mess" when you're trying to make sense of it while holding to another paradigm (that's the trouble with bias - it causes us to not "see" anything else laid before us). I realize this - that's where I sat for years......decades. That's why I'm "absolutely obsessive" over the significance of 70 AD....because it reminds me of those pictures we had ages ago.....where a hidden picture was within a picture of thousands of dots and once you SEE it you can't believe you missed it for so long.

Or like this optical illusion (the old lady and the young lady):

optical-illusions-orig-1.jpg


Other optical illusions: 14 optical illusions that will definitely melt your brain

This perfectly describes Preterism. They are obsessed with something that the Holy Spirit is not focused on - AD70. They talk about AD70 more than the cross and the second coming. Christ is not their focused! Scripture is Christ-centered - from Genesis to Revelation. Preterism is AD70-centered. Their theology is erroneous.
 
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sovereigngrace

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If this is going to be how your posts are going to be from now on (resorting to nothing but insults and absurd misrepresentation and no support for YOUR own views that are in opposition to mine) then I'm going to back out of this banter. Insults do nothing but expose your own character - but they do nothing to contribute to the discussion. :wave:

I was not just talking about your heart. I was talking about the heart of us all - Jer 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
 
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sovereigngrace

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If this is going to be how your posts are going to be from now on (resorting to nothing but insults and absurd misrepresentation and no support for YOUR own views that are in opposition to mine) then I'm going to back out of this banter. Insults do nothing but expose your own character - but they do nothing to contribute to the discussion. :wave:

I know my heart can be wicked, you obviously do not. Thus your reaction to my statement.
 
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sovereigngrace

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This reveals a black and white way of thinking.

It is called biblical Christianity! There are only two peoples in life - saved and lost, righteous and wicked. You even deny plain repeated eternal truth.
 
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mkgal1

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This perfectly describes Preterism. They are obsessed with something that the Holy Spirit is not focused on - AD70. They talk about AD70 more that the cross and the second coming. Christ is not their focused! Scripture is Christ-centered - from Genesis to Revelation. Preterism is AD70-centered. Their theology is erroneous.
Most of what's interpreted to mean "the second coming" - partial preterists believe - is actually His coming in 70 AD (but we don't limit His "comings" to two). It's odd to me how that term is even used to build an entire theology. What do you call the time Jesus appeared after His resurrection? What number is that? Or what about the "coming" to Steven......or the "coming" Saul experienced upon his conversion? I see no reason (or even ability to) number His "comings" - I think there're a lot of "visits" the preincarnate Jesus made in the Old Testament - so I certainly don't limit His ability to come many more times yet in the future (but I know there will be at least ONE in the future). That's absolutely having Christ at the center of the Bible - AND it's also having faith that Jesus and His disciples meant what they promised - that Jesus would be
coming again SOON...and that their "generation wouldn't pass until ALL these things happened" (Matthew 24:34).


Professor R.C. Sproul defines Preterism as, “An eschatological viewpoint that places many or all eschatological events in the past, especially during the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70”.The Last Days according to Jesus, by R C Sproul, p. 228. Baker Book House, Grand Rapids: Michigan (2000)" 1 A recent convert to partial Preterism, Sproul’s scholarly influence within Christianity has contributed greatly to Preterism cause.

One of Preterism’s strongest promoters today is Gary DeMar. His book, Last Days Madness, published in 1999 by American Vision, declares: (1) No signs today point forward to Christ’s return (p. 158); (2) Jesus “came” in 70 AD (p. 71, 123-125); (3) All of Matthew 24 is behind us; (4) Nero was the “beast” (p. 258); (5) “The man of sin” (2 Thess. 2:4) has come and gone (p. 280); (6) Revelation’s primary focus is events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem (p. 217); (7) The “end” of the world refers to the end of the Jewish world in 70 AD (p. 189).

Although Preterists rely on different arguments, their main contention is that when the New Testament says the Day of Christ is “at hand” (Rev. 1:3) or “near” (James 5:8), and that Jesus Christ is coming “quickly” (Rev. 22:10) or in “a little while” (Heb. 10:37), these words must have meant exactly that to their original readers in the first century. In other words, “near,” “at hand,” “quickly,” and “a little while,” must mean a short time after they were written in the first century - prior to 70 AD.

I posted previously over 100 phrases of immanency.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Most of what's interpreted to mean "the second coming" - partial preterists believe - is actually His coming in 70 AD (but we don't limit His "comings" to two). It's odd to me how that term is even used to build an entire theology. What do you call the time Jesus appeared after His resurrection? What number is that? Or what about the "coming" to Steven......or the "coming" Saul experienced upon his conversion? I see no reason (or even ability to) number His "comings" - I think there're a lot of "visits" the preincarnate Jesus made in the Old Testament - so I certainly don't limit His ability to come many more times yet in the future (but I know there will be at least ONE in the future).

It is called Scripture!!! Hebrews 9:24-28 declares: "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

Peter says in Acts 3:19-21 confirms the concluding nature of the Second Advent, saying, “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he (God) shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution (apokatastasis or reconstitution) of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”
 
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sovereigngrace

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:swoon:That's not what I said.

I said (and you quoted me as saying this), "I don't believe that standard applies today - that those that don't believe in Christ are "wicked". There were higher standards, IMO, for ancient Israel that lived alongside their Messiah and still chose Caesar as their god".

This is as clear as mud!
 
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sovereigngrace

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This reveals a black and white way of thinking.

You seem to be an expert at ducking around all the multiple contradictions in Preterism. Will you please address this avoided previous post?

Luke 20:33 records the Sadducees question: “in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.”

Jesus replied: The children of this world (or aion or age) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (or aion or age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection” (Luke 20:34-36).

We see the persistent contrast in the New Testament between “this age” which is depicted as sinful, carnal and temporal, and “the age to come” which is perfect, glorified and eternal. The problem for Preterists is that they identify our current age (since AD70) as “the age to come” or “that age.” But Jesus assures us that one must be qualified to inherit “the age to come.” Those who experience it must “be accounted worthy to obtain that age.” How then can that relate to our current age that is saturated in billions of mortal rebels? In what possible way should the wicked all around us “be accounted worthy to obtain that age” (our current age)? This is outlandish, nonsensical and unbiblical.

The phrase “they which shall be accounted worthy” is taken from the lone Greek word kataxioō, meaning, ‘to deem entirely deserving’. So, the age we find ourselves in now, which Preterists deem “the age to come” or “that age,” is one that should pertain exclusively to the elect and involve enjoying immortality and inexpressible bliss. Of course, such a day has not yet arrived and will not until Jesus ushers in the new heavens and new earth. Like Premillennialists, Preterists saturate “the age to come” with countless unregenerate dissenters, when Christ assures us that “the age to come” is only for the glorified redeemed saints of God.

What is more, the unique condition that is promised for “the age to come” (“that age”) is that they will experience “the resurrection from the dead” and a pristine environment where no one can “die any more” or is anyone “given in marriage.” One just has to have an actively working brain to know that that is not speaking about our current age. When we look at the age we find ourselves in now it is no different to that before AD70, which was marked by sin, sinners, death and decay, rebellion and war. We still live in such a world today! Those who would argue different might need the boys with the white coast to take them off.

Seeing the folly of their position, and the multiple contradictions, some Preterists try to argue that this must relate to the ascent of the spirit of the believer upon death up into the presence of God in heaven during the intermediate state. But that is nothing distinctive. That also occurred prior to AD70 in what they call “this age.” Ever since Christ defeated sin, death and the grave, God’s people immediately entered the presence of God in glory upon death. So, whatever way you look at it, Preterist reasoning swiftly falls apart.
 
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mkgal1

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Will you please address this avoided previous post?

Luke 20:33 records the Sadducees question: “in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.”

Jesus replied: The children of this world (or aion or age) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (or aion or age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection” (Luke 20:34-36).
I didn't "avoid" this. I answered it in a few posts (to elaborate and because you kept repeating that I hadn't answered it) - here is one of those posts:

When did the Old Covenant truly "disappear" and end?

Others can re-read the thread (or go back to earlier posts) and see that you're portraying a false reality of what's been posted already.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Most of what's interpreted to mean "the second coming" - partial preterists believe - is actually His coming in 70 AD (but we don't limit His "comings" to two). It's odd to me how that term is even used to build an entire theology. What do you call the time Jesus appeared after His resurrection? What number is that? Or what about the "coming" to Steven......or the "coming" Saul experienced upon his conversion? I see no reason (or even ability to) number His "comings" - I think there're a lot of "visits" the preincarnate Jesus made in the Old Testament - so I certainly don't limit His ability to come many more times yet in the future (but I know there will be at least ONE in the future).


Professor R.C. Sproul defines Preterism as, “An eschatological viewpoint that places many or all eschatological events in the past, especially during the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70”.The Last Days according to Jesus, by R C Sproul, p. 228. Baker Book House, Grand Rapids: Michigan (2000)" 1 A recent convert to partial Preterism, Sproul’s scholarly influence within Christianity has contributed greatly to Preterism cause.

One of Preterism’s strongest promoters today is Gary DeMar. His book, Last Days Madness, published in 1999 by American Vision, declares: (1) No signs today point forward to Christ’s return (p. 158); (2) Jesus “came” in 70 AD (p. 71, 123-125); (3) All of Matthew 24 is behind us; (4) Nero was the “beast” (p. 258); (5) “The man of sin” (2 Thess. 2:4) has come and gone (p. 280); (6) Revelation’s primary focus is events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem (p. 217); (7) The “end” of the world refers to the end of the Jewish world in 70 AD (p. 189).

Although Preterists rely on different arguments, their main contention is that when the New Testament says the Day of Christ is “at hand” (Rev. 1:3) or “near” (James 5:8), and that Jesus Christ is coming “quickly” (Rev. 22:10) or in “a little while” (Heb. 10:37), these words must have meant exactly that to their original readers in the first century. In other words, “near,” “at hand,” “quickly,” and “a little while,” must mean a short time after they were written in the first century - prior to 70 AD.

I posted previously over 100 phrases of immanency.

Are you Pastor Steve Wohlberg? You have stolen his words (word-for-word) from his website?

More on Preterism Part 1 | White Horse Media

This looks like plagiarism! That is illegal!!!!
 
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sovereigngrace

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Its there. It's just not what you're looking for - so you're probably missing it. The New Covenant brought life to ancient Israel. Look at the next verse. After this resurrection happens there will be believers leading many to righteousness:

Daniel 12:3 ~ Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

If this Resurrection will be at the end of time - as many believe - how could many be coming to righteousness after it happened?

The "wicked" (of ancient Israel) were given opportunity of this New Life given to them from the New Covenant (they were "dead"and condemned under the Law - not physically dead). Here's one example of that happening:

Acts 2:14-21, 36-41
14Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, lifted up his voice, and addressed the crowd: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen carefully to my words. 15These men are not drunk as you suppose. It is only the third hour of the day!c 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:17‘In the last days, God says,

I will pour out My Spirit on all people.

Your sons and daughters will prophesy,

your young men will see visions,

your old men will dream dreams.18Even on My menservants and maidservants

I will pour out My Spirit in those days,

and they will prophesy.19I will show wonders in the heavens above

and signs on the earth below,

blood and fire and billows of smoke.20The sun will be turned to darkness,
and the moon to blood,

before the coming of the great and glorious Day of the Lord.21And everyone who calls

on the name of the Lord will be saved.’d

36Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!”37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39This promise belongs to you and your children and to all who are far off—to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”40With many other words he testified, and he urged them, “Be saved from this corrupt generation.” 41Those who embraced his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to the believers that day.g


So Daniel 12 talks about a time of great trouble, about a resurrection and then about many coming to righteousness. Notice what Jesus says in Matthew 13:

Matthew 13:40 ~"So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

So the time that Jesus is talking about here is the "end of the age." This is the same time that Daniel 12 talks about:

Daniel 12:13 ~"But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age."

There are only two ages talked about in the Bible, "this age," which was the Old Covenant age, and "the age to come" which was the New Covenant age. The New Covenant has no last days, no end time; so the end of the age must refer to the end of the Old Covenant.

Are you also Pastor David B. Curtis? You have stolen his words (word-for-word) from his website?

Berean Bible Church: Daniel 12 and the Resurrection Part 2

This looks like plagiarism! That is illegal!!!!
 
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sovereigngrace

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Look at the original language in the lexicon:


μέλλειν = to be about to

I don't believe this is about a physical resurrection. I believe this is in reference to the prophecy of Daniel - the section recorded in Daniel 12:

Daniel 12:1-2 ~ At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Everyone who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever."

Who is this about? Do you notice the part about "the sons of your people" (spoken to Daniel)? And that “your people” would be delivered?” He is speaking of the Jewish Tribulation of AD 70. In fact, Jesus quotes vs 3 about the righteous shining and applied it to the end of the old covenant age, the time of the Jewish tribulation in AD70. (in Mt. 13:43)

This is not about an end of the world event or even a physical resurrection (in my belief). It is an event (IMO), spoken in prophetic language to describe what would happen to Judah and Israel in the last days of the Old Covenant. It is about Daniel's people... Israel!


When Would This Take Place?
4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.

Notice that the angelic messenger dressed in linen doesn't say the end of time, but the time of the end. The end of what? The end of the Old Covenant age. Paul said in 1 Cor. 10:11,

"Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom THE ENDS OF THE AGES HAVE COME."

Acts 3:24 ~ "Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold THESE days."


The days they were living in were the time of the end.

Daniel 12 has a context that provides us with the timing of when all these things would take place. The angelic messenger says that ALL these things will be finished at a certain time in history. It would be the time when the center of power for Judaism was completely shattered... the temple. He also says how long this event would last... times, time and half a time. That is the prophetic equivalent to 3.5 years. (time = 1 year; times = 2 years; half a time= 6 months). Do you know how long the time was that Rome attacked Jerusalem and finally destroyed the temple? It was 3.5 years.

Here is one more contextual evidence from the words of Jesus. Pay attention to the fact that he is applying Daniel 12 to THIS age. What age was Jesus living in? According to Paul, Jesus was "born of a woman, born UNDER THE LAW..." THIS age, to Jesus was the age of the Law. He doesn't say "that age" as some distant one thousands of years later, but rather, the one they were living in at the moment:

Matthew 13:39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of THIS AGE...43 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.

So we know WHEN Daniel 12 was to take place, so what kind of awakening from the dust is Daniel 12 referring to? It must not be physical at all.

"Who sleep in the dust of the earth" I just learned that this is a figure of speech used in ancient cultures to describe those who were utterly defeated. That is why in the Garden the language is used of the serpent licking the dust of the earth. That is why Israel is depicted in Ezekiel 37 as being in the Valley of dry bones, in the place of utter defeat, in the dust. In Genesis 28:14 he describes the children of Israel’s descendants being like the dust in the earth. In this case dust meaning as numerous as specks of dust, but he corporately calls them dust. In 1 Samuel 2:8 (the poor he lifts from the dust) people who live in the dust refers to the poor, and the powerless where he specifically raises them up out of the dust. It means out of their defeat and poverty.


So this is not speaking of a physical resurrection. It is the raising up, regathering of Israel, not bringing Israel back into their physical territory in 1947. We already have the timing of this event as the period of time leading up to the fall of the temple in AD 70. It is the regathering of those who were scattered through the dispersion into Babylon and Assyria, etc. In other words those cast out of the land, many years before, were considered “dead” corporately. Remember the image in Ezekiel 37 of the valley of dry bones? Israel is pictured as dead in terms of covenant, their covenant was broken, and they were pictured as if they were lifeless.

Remember that Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel... the Israel that was sent into captivity. In Acts 2 we find that Jews from all over the world, the scattered ones, were there for Pentecost and so began the re-gathering.

So what happened in the resurrection of Christ? According to Ephesians 2 ALL were made alive together with him, and ALL were raised together with him. Israel was God's "first born" and as Nicodemus should have known, there was coming a time for all Israel to be reborn. Spiritually speaking that took place at the resurrection of Christ. An awakening took place. As Jesus said those in the graves, or as Daniel would say it, in the dust of the earth… the defeated poor broken disenfranchised scattered Israelites, would hear his voice and because they were raised together with Christ, they would experience the age of new covenant kingdom life.

That started in the ministry of Jesus but it really blossomed on the day of Pentecost where thousands were gathered together in Jerusalem from the ends of the earth, being regathered into the NC.

But what about those who did evil? Did you know that in Hebrews 3:12 the author calls the Jew's unbelief evil? Those who refused to come out of the Law, even though they were in the midst of the greatest awakening in their history, if they refused to believe Jesus, they would die in the fall of Jerusalem. That is why Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. This "saved" is not about going to heaven. It is about them identifying with Christ and being saved from the fall of Jerusalem and its condemnation of the system of Law.

So some experienced the resurrection out of the dust and the age of life of the New Covenant, while others experienced the resurrection out of the dust, but refused to believe and were caught in the condemnation of the fall of Jerusalem. If you want the "condemnation" of Daniel 12 to be "eternal", even though the word doesn't mean that, one could still come to the same conclusion because the judgment on Jerusalem and on the temple system was a message that is to stand "forever" as a testimony. But Daniel 12 never meant a physical resurrection.



Are you also Chuck Crisco? You have stolen his words (word-for-word) from his website?

DOES DANIEL 12 TEACH A PHYSICAL RESURRECTION? — A New Day Dawning

This looks like plagiarism! That is illegal!!!!
 
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sovereigngrace

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As I've stated that I believe - until the New Covenant was fully consummated by Christ fulfilling all the Law, those were still in "this age" (until 70 AD). I believe the release from Sheol occurred in 70 AD - where the OC saints were released into the presence of God (and believe that's the SPIRITUAL resurrection that was hoped for - the "age to come" beginning in 70 AD). Look at this part of the passage:

Luke 20:37-28 ~ Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for to Him all are alive.”

Resurrection was the main hope of the New Testament (written in that transition time - after Jesus' resurrection.....and prior to the destruction of 70 AD)......but this is a spiritual resurrection - not physical.

God is the God of the living. As Paul put it in 1 Corinthians, chapter 15, if there is no resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:19 ~ If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

As Christians, we have already been raised from death to life:

Ephesians 2:4-5 ~ But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

We are spiritually alive. Someday we will all die physically, and when we do, we will simply move into the heavenly realm for unhindered, unending fellowship with our Lord, never to die again (that's what I believe is being expressed).

Are you also Pastor David B. Curtis again? You have stolen his words (word-for-word) from his website?

The Afterlife (Part 1) - Matthew 22:23-33: Berean Bible Church

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sovereigngrace

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You're leading with your presumption about the nature of the new heaven/new earth that came with the new covenant cosmology and ignoring the time statements. Instead - I believe - we need to take what is written about the timing, and allow that to inform our view of the nature of the new covenant cosmology.

Cosmology in modern science is the study of the nature of our physical and observable universe, its arrangement, and how its various parts relate to each other. In contrast, Biblical Cosmology focuses on how God and the normally unseen spiritual realm interacts with man and the seen physical realm. Biblical Cosmology attempts to explain
how both realms interrelate to each other. Notice the contrast between the invisible things in the heavens and the visible things on the earth mentioned in Col. 1:16 – “by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions
or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.”
As Christians we believe there is an invisible realm that is different in nature from the
visible realm in which we dwell. And that unseen realm has been there since the beginning of creation.

Are you also Ed Stevens also? You have stolen his words (word-for-word) from his PDF?

Final Decade Stevens

http://www.fulfilledcg.com/Site/images/Issues/2015_Winter/Fulfilled-winter-2015.pdf

This looks like plagiarism! That is illegal!!!!
 
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I didn't "avoid" this. I answered it in a few posts (to elaborate and because you kept repeating that I hadn't answered it) - here is one of those posts:

When did the Old Covenant truly "disappear" and end?

Others can re-read the thread (or go back to earlier posts) and see that you're portraying a false reality of what's been posted already.

I wonder who it is that has been "portraying a false reality of what's been posted already?"
 
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mkgal1

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This looks like plagiarism! That is illegal!!!!
"As a matter of policy, fair use is based on the belief that the public is entitled to freely use portions of copyrighted materials for purposes of commentary and criticism."

**I have notes with the quotes of many authors/scholors/websites to the point where I don't know whom to credit for what. I'm not profiting (like I would be if I were to write a book and have it published).

But ISTM that you're going out of your way in order to discredit me. Why not use support for your arguments instead?
 
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sovereigngrace

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As a matter of policy, fair use is based on the belief that the public is entitled to freely use portions of copyrighted materials for purposes of commentary and criticism.

**I have notes with the quotes of many authors/scholors/websites to the point where I don't know whom to credit for what. I'm not profiting (like I would be if I were to write a book and have it published).

But ISTM that you're going out of your way in order to discredit me. Why not use support for your arguments instead?

You are unrepentant to the end. Plagiarism is illegal. Please see what it means: "to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one's own : use (another's production) without crediting the source."

This is deceitful! This is dishonorable! This is under hand!
 
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