Trump rails against windmills: 'I never understood wind'

tulc

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grasping the after wind

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I like windmills, but not in my back yard. :mad:

I wouldn't mind one in my backyard at all as long as I am the owner of it and not some government mandated monopolistic electric company. Windmills a can be an nice little addition to the power grid but not a reliable bulwark. In the end only fossil fuels or nuclear are currently reliable enough sources to make sure one can meet a country's electrical needs. For now and the forseeable future ,wind and solar are simply too unreliable to meet those needs. They can , however, be useful as adjuncts to the more reliable sources.
 
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usexpat97

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For now and the forseeable future ,wind and solar are simply too unreliable to meet those needs. They can , however, be useful as adjuncts to the more reliable sources.

Then you do support their research into the matter?

A major way you counteract the "unreliability" of renewable energy is by having a grid. When flags can't even fly in one place, it is windy in another. When it rains here, it is sunny there. So we form a grid and energy storage, to solve a problem nature created. There is no diabolical, sinister plot to socialize everyone here: gridding renewable energy is simply the easiest solution we have.
 
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grasping the after wind

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Then you do support their research into the matter?

A major way you counteract the "unreliability" of renewable energy is by having a grid. When flags can't even fly in one place, it is windy in another. When it rains here, it is sunny there. So we form a grid and energy storage, to solve a problem nature created. There is no diabolical, sinister plot to socialize everyone here: gridding renewable energy is simply the easiest solution we have.

Of course I support research. There are times when the sun is not shining sufficiently at any place within reach of the grid, during the middle of the night for instance, nor may the wind be blowing at the correct speed ( either too slow or too fast is not usable for a windmill.) . The optimum solution for energy needs is to use every type in concert so that all needs are met. Removing one or two types because one has some prejudice against that one or two is folly.
 
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usexpat97

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Of course I support research. There are times when the sun is not shining sufficiently at any place within reach of the grid during the middle of the night for instance nor the wind blowing at the correct speed ( either too slow or too fast is not usable for a windmill.) . The optimum solution for energy needs is to use every type in concert so that all needs are met. Removing one or two types because one has some prejudice against that one or two is folly.

Okay, good.

The solar-nighttime problem is being addressed. Indeed, when you do you want to turn on all your lights? When there is no solar power. That's how your solar lights in your frontyard work.

So we come up with all these gridded, shared energy storage, multiple energy source solutions; all of which feed the grid, and the grid draws from. What happens next? Capitalists throw stones and say it is too socialistic. So now we have to come up with "capitalist" solutions, in addition to the problems we already face just from nature.

So then what happens next? We have a huge business-to-business market for energy. During times of peak demand for air conditioning, we also have times of peak supply of solar back into the grid (because people would prefer to sell their excess solar power back to the grid, rather than store it in their own homes to use later at night). Energy prices fluctuate. Electric companies buy-and-sell energy from each other, to meet varying supply and demand.

So then what happens next? "Global warming is all just an invention of the big banks, to make a profit".


You can't win.
 
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grasping the after wind

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Okay, good.

The solar-nighttime problem is being addressed. Indeed, when you do you want to turn on all your lights? When there is no solar power. That's how your solar lights in your frontyard work.

So we come up with all these gridded, shared energy storage, multiple energy source solutions; all of which feed the grid, and the grid draws from. What happens next? Capitalists throw stones and say it is too socialistic. So now we have to come up with "capitalist" solutions, in addition to the problems we already face just from nature.

So then what happens next? We have a huge business-to-business market for energy. During times of peak demand for air conditioning, we also have times of peak supply of solar back into the grid (because people would prefer to sell their excess solar power back to the grid, rather than store it in their own homes to use later at night). Energy prices fluctuate. Electric companies buy-and-sell energy from each other, to meet varying supply and demand.

So then what happens next? "Global warming is all just an invention of the big banks, to make a profit".


You can't win.

I haven't heard anyone suggest that it is banks that invented global warming. I expect it must be very hard to make that case . After all, it would be extremely hard to convince anyone that banks invented anything let alone something that had been going on for centuries before there were any banks.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Then you do support their research into the matter?

A major way you counteract the "unreliability" of renewable energy is by having a grid. When flags can't even fly in one place, it is windy in another. When it rains here, it is sunny there. So we form a grid and energy storage, to solve a problem nature created. There is no diabolical, sinister plot to socialize everyone here: gridding renewable energy is simply the easiest solution we have.

Transferring electricity is very wasteful. Best to use it close to where it is produced.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I wouldn't mind one in my backyard at all as long as I am the owner of it and not some government mandated monopolistic electric company. Windmills a can be an nice little addition to the power grid but not a reliable bulwark. In the end only fossil fuels or nuclear are currently reliable enough sources to make sure one can meet a country's electrical needs. For now and the forseeable future ,wind and solar are simply too unreliable to meet those needs. They can , however, be useful as adjuncts to the more reliable sources.

They're now pushing for large capacity battery storage to mitigate those times.
 
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usexpat97

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Elon Musk was working on those big batteries you keep in your garage. You could probably just switch out the battery in your EV you have parked there. Problem is, to get the storage capacity you really need, those things ran around $20k and needed a lot of lithium--not an element we have in plentiful supply.
 
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Bob Crowley

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Windmills use more energy to make and deliver than they will ever save ... they are just something to make People feel like they are doing something

That would appear to be a myth.

Wind Turbines DON’T Use More Energy Than They Produce — Debunking The Myth That Won’t Die

As far as I'm concerned, the power grid should be supported by a mix of solar, wind, fossil fuel and whatever else is needed to ensure power is always on tap.

We've got solar power units on our roof, and overall we produce a bit more energy than we use. However we can't store it, and obviously no power is generated at night. Inclement weather can also significantly reduce the amount of energy the cells generate.

At the moment, there's not much financial incentive for us to become more "green" than we are from the point of view of solar power, due to the fact we get a subsidy, which finishes in 2028. If we increased our output by putting on more panels, we'd lose the subsidy. I haven't paid a power bill since late 2011, when the units were installed. I'd be a mug to become more "green" when all it would do is cost us more money, as things stand right now.

However if we moved, and if we had enough money, I'd think about solar power with battery backup. The subsidy would no longer be available, and I have my own peculiar reasons for being concerned about Australia's political and economic outlook.

I also think climate change is here to stay. We've had bush fires all over the place in Australia, and each year it seems to be getting hotter and drier over much of the continent. In fact, I'd say we'd be one of the countries most likely to be negatively affected by climate change, whereas Canada for example may even gain from it.
 
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The Barbarian

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Transferring electricity is very wasteful. Best to use it close to where it is produced.

It's why Tesla won out over Edison, who wanted direct current. AC, given very high voltages, can be passed over very long distances, with very little loss. It's how our grid works now.
 
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BryanJohnMaloney

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Okay, good.

The solar-nighttime problem is being addressed. Indeed, when you do you want to turn on all your lights? When there is no solar power. That's how your solar lights in your frontyard work.

So we come up with all these gridded, shared energy storage, multiple energy source solutions; all of which feed the grid, and the grid draws from. What happens next? Capitalists throw stones and say it is too socialistic. So now we have to come up with "capitalist" solutions, in addition to the problems we already face just from nature.

So then what happens next? We have a huge business-to-business market for energy. During times of peak demand for air conditioning, we also have times of peak supply of solar back into the grid (because people would prefer to sell their excess solar power back to the grid, rather than store it in their own homes to use later at night). Energy prices fluctuate. Electric companies buy-and-sell energy from each other, to meet varying supply and demand.

So then what happens next? "Global warming is all just an invention of the big banks, to make a profit".


You can't win.

What specific "capitalists" have denounced the power grid as "too socialistic"? Non-fringe, please. Likewise, actual capitalists, not wonks, not "pundits", not politicians. The capitalists I'm familiar with are happy to continue to use a concept that has been used long before solar or wind generation were added to the grid. You ARE aware that the grid wasn't invented for those generation methods, right?
 
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The Barbarian

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What specific "capitalists" have denounced the power grid as "too socialistic"?

Edison. He favored direct current, provided by small businesses locally. You neighborhood power company.

Non-fringe, please. Likewise, actual capitalists, not wonks, not "pundits", not politicians.

Few businessmen are actually capitalists. They generally do everything in their power to avoid a market economy.
 
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BryanJohnMaloney

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Edison. He favored direct current, provided by small businesses locally. You neighborhood power company.

Do you have a quote to that effect?


Few businessmen are actually capitalists. They generally do everything in their power to avoid a market economy.

Ah, yes, when all else fails go "No True Scotsman".

Still waiting on those MANY "capitalists" who despise the power grid.
 
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The Barbarian

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Barbarian observes:
Edison. He favored direct current, provided by small businesses locally. You neighborhood power company.

Do you have a quote to that effect?

Hmm... (Barbarian checks)
I have always consistently opposed high-tension and alternating systems of electric lighting, not only on account of danger, but because of their general unreliability and unsuitability for any general system of distribution.
— Thomas Edison
In 'The Dangers of Electric Lighting', North American Review (Nov 1889), 149, No. 396, 633.

Some details:
War of the currents - Wikipedia

Barbarian observe:
Few businessmen are actually capitalists. They generally do everything in their power to avoid a market economy.

Ah, yes, when all else fails go "No True Scotsman".

Well, let's ask Adam Smith, the ubercapitalist...

"People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices…. But though the law cannot hinder people of the same trade from sometimes assembling together, it ought to do nothing to facilitate such assemblies, much less to render them necessary."
Adam Smith, The Wealth Of Nations, Book IV Chapter VIII, p. 145, para. c27.

Still waiting on those MANY "capitalists" who despise the power grid.

You'd have to ask whoever made that claim.
 
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