The Man Christ Jesus

Charlie24

Newbie
Oct 17, 2014
2,306
963
✟103,731.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Yes, I agree. But all will believe. Jesus came to save the world, not condemn it (Jn 3:17). I happen to believe in the total victory of Christ.

God has reconciled the world to Him, not counting men's sins (2 Cor 5:19). Love bears no record of wrongs (1 Cor 13:5), and the gospel is good news for all (Lk 2:10).

When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. (1 Cor 15:28)

Does that sound like God loses anything? Exitus et reditus, my friend.
Have you repented of your sins and asked Christ to forgive you? Are you doing your best to follow Him?

If the answer to both these questions is yes, it doesn't matter if you believe in the greater hope. You are a born again Christian.

If the answer to either of these questions is no, you are in deep trouble with Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Have you repented of your sins and asked Christ to forgive you? Are you doing your best to follow Him?

If the answer to both these questions is yes, it doesn't matter if you believe in the greater hope. You are a born again Christian.

If the answer to either of these questions is no, you are in deep trouble with Christ.

With respect, salvation is from God, we can't save ourselves; all our righteousness is but filthy rags. Am I a 'good Christian'? No, I rely on His good grace and mercy, and He leads me in awe of His holy glory and absolute perfection. So I can be assured that the outcome will be good. I'm not anxious about salvation. We love Him because He loved us first.

This is what I was getting at with the atonement - it reassures us that God is good and He'll go all the way to save us even at our worst, regardless of whether you think that's all mankind or just a select few.
 
Upvote 0

Charlie24

Newbie
Oct 17, 2014
2,306
963
✟103,731.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
With respect, salvation is from God, we can't save ourselves; all our righteousness is but filthy rags. Am I a 'good Christian'? No, I rely on His good grace and mercy, and He leads me in awe of His holy glory and absolute perfection. So I can be assured that the outcome will be good. I'm not anxious about salvation. We love Him because He loved us first.

This is what I was getting at with the atonement - it reassures us that God is good and He'll go all the way to save us even at our worst, regardless of whether you think that's all mankind or just a select few.
With that confession I consider you my brother in Christ!

We disagree on some doctrine but that does not decide our salvation.

Thank God He doesn't ask much of us, but He does demand that we repent and believe in His Son.
 
Upvote 0

danielmears

Active Member
Site Supporter
Jan 30, 2018
266
156
Phelan
✟132,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It has often been said, and rightly so, that the greatest example of being led by the Holy Spirit is seen in the Man, Christ Jesus. While never ceasing to be God, He laid aside His expression of deity and walked this earth as you and I, but without sin. Phil. 2:7.

Christ could not lay aside His deity as God, He cannot stop being God. But He did lay aside His expression of deity to become 100% man.

All the miracles He performed was done through Him by the Holy Spirit. Every word he spoke was given to Him by the Holy Spirit. While never ceasing to be God, He willingly gave up His attributes as all-knowing, all-powerful, and everywhere present. He was wholly dependent on the Holy Spirit.

When the woman touched the hem of His garment He turned and said, who touched me? He had to look around to see who it was.

When His disciples asked Him when would He return? He said no one knows when the Son of Man will return, only My Father. He didn't know because he willingly gave up that power to become 100% man while yet being 100% God.

When He rose from the dead in victory over death, hell, and the grave, Satan was totally and completely defeated.

Christ Jesus is still 100% man and 100% God, and He has taken back that which He laid aside.

He is the Almighty God!
 
Upvote 0

danielmears

Active Member
Site Supporter
Jan 30, 2018
266
156
Phelan
✟132,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Christ was one with God and said so in John 17:21 when he prayed we too would, be one. He said he only did what the Father told him and said, the Father is greater. He was one and was showing us, the way! With God, he said, all things are possible! His demonstration of power clearly proves he was One but we should listen when he says, greater things will you do because I go to the Father! Man short changes himself on what is possible! If we believe in the Christ, the anointed one, we are told to do what he says, only believe, have faith, love God with all of our heart and mind, including others, realizing we are the children of the most High, Living God!







1
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,347
1,749
✟166,441.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Yes, I agree. But all will believe. Jesus came to save the world, not condemn it (Jn 3:17). I happen to believe in the total victory of Christ.

God has reconciled the world to Him, not counting men's sins (2 Cor 5:19). Love bears no record of wrongs (1 Cor 13:5), and the gospel is good news for all (Lk 2:10).

When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. (1 Cor 15:28)

Does that sound like God loses anything? Exitus et reditus, my friend.
Wrong not all believe or will believe.

John 6:64. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.66. ...From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.”

2 Corinthians 4:3. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”

Hebrews 3:19. So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”

John 17:12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,427
26,867
Pacific Northwest
✟731,303.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
The kenosis was not a laying aside of His divine power/attributes/etc; it is the humility of Christ-God who not only became man, but as St. Paul says in Philippians 2, taking on the form of a slave, being obedient to the point of death, even death on the cross. It is the humility of God that the Apostle talks about here. The emptying, the kenosis, is in Christ not exploiting His divinity, but being humble.

When Christ spoke to the wind and waves and they became still, creation listened because He's God. The Lord says that He freely gives up His life, and He can freely take it back up again.

God became humble, weak. God suffered, God was crucified. God willfully, purposefully, and graciously condescended to partake in our weakness, fragility, pain, suffering, and yes, death. He chose this for Himself, for our sakes. Not by ever ceasing to be what He always was, not by setting aside what He is; but by taking upon Himself what we are. That's the kenosis.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

Hillsage

One 4 Him & Him 4 all
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2009
5,244
1,767
The land of OZ
✟322,350.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
But I have read, "your sins have separated you from your God."
Are you sure you've "read THAT in scripture." ? Or do You just 'see' what indoctrinated teaching has taught you to believe. Where is this verse that you speak of?

But even if you could find a verse saying what 'you said'; would you know the difference between "YOU being separated FROM GOD" and "GOD being separated FROM YOU"?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,427
26,867
Pacific Northwest
✟731,303.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Let me ask a question.

If a person rejects Christ, is that persons sin forgiven because of the atonement of Christ?

Biblically, the answer is yes. Christ died for everyone. You, me, everyone; your sins, my sins, everyone's sins.

That doesn't mean everyone will be saved. But Christ didn't die only for the elect, Christ died for everyone.

Both the Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement and the Arminian doctrine of Unlimited Atonement, effectively, argue that Christ only dies for some. The difference is that the Calvinist says that on account of man's total inability, God's unconditional election, and God's irresistable grace the elect will be saved, and those whom God predestined to salvation are those for whom Christ died; while the Arminian says that we aren't totally unable, God's election isn't unconditional, and grace is resistible, and so Christ died for all who would believe in Him by their own decision and choice.

Approaching the topic from entirely outside the Reformed theological paradigm, as a Lutheran, it is neither Limited nor Unlimited Atonement, but Universal Atonement. Christ died for all. Full stop. Everyone. That's why St. Paul can say in Romans 5:18 that all are justified. This is Objective Justification, what happened objectively once and for all, for everyone, by Christ's death and resurrection. Subjective Justification is what happens when, by the grace of God, through the means of His grace, He gives us faith and appropriates to us all which Christ accomplished. This is is a big part of what St. Paul says in Romans ch. 10, asking how can those who never heard of Him call upon Him, and how can they hear unless one is sent to preach. Thus, the Apostle says, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ (Romans 10:17). It is therefore the preaching of the Gospel which God has chosen to be the means by which what Christ has done comes to you and to me, it is for this reason that Christ called His apostles to preach the forgiveness of sins in His name beginning in Jerusalem, and commissioned His Church to preach the word, and to baptize.

As Martin Luther poignantly states in the Large Catechism,

"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us." (Large Catechism, Section II, Article III, 38)

The work is done and accomplished. Christ's work is finished, it is perfect, complete, and it is for every man, woman, and child. Not merely as a potential, but objectively so. But for us to benefit from this work it must come to us as individuals, that is why Christ institutes His Church and calls her to the ministry of Word and Sacrament. That God, through His Gospel, brings the all-sufficient work of Christ to you and to me. The Gospel is "Christ died for you" not "God did His part, now you have to do yours."

And thus, yes, Christ died for those who reject him. Because, frankly, that describes everyone. Even those of us who call ourselves Christians reject Him, we reject Him every time we sin. How often in our lives, in thought, word, or deed we--like Peter--deny the Son of God? Yet, St. John reminds us, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Christ died for all. Those whom God predestined from before the foundation of the world, and those who, even on the Last Day, would deny and curse Him.

Which is why damnation is not God's work against man, but man's work against himself. It is only by the will of man that he is damned, for he chooses himself even to his own destruction. To borrow language from C.S. Lewis, what may have begun as merely a grumble inside a person ultimately makes them the grumble. A shrinking away from God, and thus away from all that makes us human, to become nothing more than the grumble. So horrid is this that St. John of Patmos can only describe it as "the second death", using the imagery of a burning lake of sulfur and fire into which even death and Hades themselves are cast into. A death that is more than death.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Like
Reactions: jacks
Upvote 0

Charlie24

Newbie
Oct 17, 2014
2,306
963
✟103,731.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Are you sure you've "read THAT in scripture." ? Or do You just 'see' what indoctrinated teaching has taught you to believe. Where is this verse that you speak of?

But even if you could find a verse saying what 'you said'; would you know the difference between "YOU being separated FROM GOD" and "GOD being separated FROM YOU"?

Isa. 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Charlie24

Newbie
Oct 17, 2014
2,306
963
✟103,731.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Biblically, the answer is yes. Christ died for everyone. You, me, everyone; your sins, my sins, everyone's sins.

That doesn't mean everyone will be saved. But Christ didn't die only for the elect, Christ died for everyone.

Both the Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement and the Arminian doctrine of Unlimited Atonement, effectively, argue that Christ only dies for some. The difference is that the Calvinist says that on account of man's total inability, God's unconditional election, and God's irresistable grace the elect will be saved, and those whom God predestined to salvation are those for whom Christ died; while the Arminian says that we aren't totally unable, God's election isn't unconditional, and grace is resistible, and so Christ died for all who would believe in Him by their own decision and choice.

Approaching the topic from entirely outside the Reformed theological paradigm, as a Lutheran, it is neither Limited nor Unlimited Atonement, but Universal Atonement. Christ died for all. Full stop. Everyone. That's why St. Paul can say in Romans 5:18 that all are justified. This is Objective Justification, what happened objectively once and for all, for everyone, by Christ's death and resurrection. Subjective Justification is what happens when, by the grace of God, through the means of His grace, He gives us faith and appropriates to us all which Christ accomplished. This is is a big part of what St. Paul says in Romans ch. 10, asking how can those who never heard of Him call upon Him, and how can they hear unless one is sent to preach. Thus, the Apostle says, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ (Romans 10:17). It is therefore the preaching of the Gospel which God has chosen to be the means by which what Christ has done comes to you and to me, it is for this reason that Christ called His apostles to preach the forgiveness of sins in His name beginning in Jerusalem, and commissioned His Church to preach the word, and to baptize.

As Martin Luther poignantly states in the Large Catechism,

"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us." (Large Catechism, Section II, Article III, 38)

The work is done and accomplished. Christ's work is finished, it is perfect, complete, and it is for every man, woman, and child. Not merely as a potential, but objectively so. But for us to benefit from this work it must come to us as individuals, that is why Christ institutes His Church and calls her to the ministry of Word and Sacrament. That God, through His Gospel, brings the all-sufficient work of Christ to you and to me. The Gospel is "Christ died for you" not "God did His part, now you have to do yours."

And thus, yes, Christ died for those who reject him. Because, frankly, that describes everyone. Even those of us who call ourselves Christians reject Him, we reject Him every time we sin. How often in our lives, in thought, word, or deed we--like Peter--deny the Son of God? Yet, St. John reminds us, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Christ died for all. Those whom God predestined from before the foundation of the world, and those who, even on the Last Day, would deny and curse Him.

Which is why damnation is not God's work against man, but man's work against himself. It is only by the will of man that he is damned, for he chooses himself even to his own destruction. To borrow language from C.S. Lewis, what may have begun as merely a grumble inside a person ultimately makes them the grumble. A shrinking away from God, and thus away from all that makes us human, to become nothing more than the grumble. So horrid is this that St. John of Patmos can only describe it as "the second death", using the imagery of a burning lake of sulfur and fire into which even death and Hades themselves are cast into. A death that is more than death.

-CryptoLutheran

John 8:24
"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

Like I said, no Christ, no forgiveness of sin.
 
Upvote 0

Hillsage

One 4 Him & Him 4 all
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2009
5,244
1,767
The land of OZ
✟322,350.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Isa. 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, .
You just proved my point. That verse does not say your SINS have separated you. Do you know the difference between and iniquity and a sin?

EXO 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children,

EZE 21:24 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have made your iniquity to be remembered, in that your transgressions are discovered, so that in all your doings your sins do appear; because, I say, that ye are come to remembrance, ye shall be taken with the hand.


and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear

And just why have your sins hid his face from you, as you believe? Is it because He is blinded by them? Or is it because YOU are blinded by them. Huge difference in your attitude toward the God you think you're serving and the plan you think you understand.

And, you only answered 1 of my very short 2 question post Charlie. If you can't face all the questions what are you even doing here? Do you even have the freedom to believe you don't know something?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: FineLinen
Upvote 0

Charlie24

Newbie
Oct 17, 2014
2,306
963
✟103,731.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
You just proved my point. That verse does not say your SINS have separated you. Do you know the difference between and iniquity and a sin?

EXO 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children,

EZE 21:24 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have made your iniquity to be remembered, in that your transgressions are discovered, so that in all your doings your sins do appear; because, I say, that ye are come to remembrance, ye shall be taken with the hand.




And just why have your sins hid his face from you, as you believe? Is it because He is blinded by them? Or is it because YOU are blinded by them. Huge difference in your attitude toward the God you think you're serving and the plan you think you understand.

And, you only answered 1 of my very short 2 question post Charlie. If you can't face all the questions what are you even doing here? Do you even have the freedom to believe you don't know something?[/QUOTE]

The pastor preached on loving your neighbor this morning. You make that quite a chore, Hillsage!

As I remember a couple of months ago on a political thread you said the same thing to me, "what are you even doing here."

I don't think you would say that face to face, in fact, I'm sure of it!

You pick these petty arguments for some reason, maybe you just don't like me.

I suggest you start a study on how to relate to folks and gain yourself some people skills.
 
Upvote 0

Hillsage

One 4 Him & Him 4 all
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2009
5,244
1,767
The land of OZ
✟322,350.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
The pastor preached on loving your neighbor this morning. You make that quite a chore, Hillsage!
A good message sounds like. And one you apparently can't live up to either...especially giving your final "suggestion" for me. :(

As I remember a couple of months ago on a political thread you said the same thing to me, "what are you even doing here."
Your memory is better than mine then. But I'm not surprised if I did. Since you are confirming again to me, that my recommendation still seems have remained consistent.

I don't think you would say that face to face, in fact, I'm sure of it!
Of course you're "sure of it". I would expect nothing less of your thinking. I do believe you'd be very surprised to find the same with me face to face.

You pick these petty arguments for some reason, maybe you just don't like me.
Arguments so petty you can't even respond???? Maybe they just challenge you deeper than you can even bear to deal with.
I suggest you start a study on how to relate to folks and gain yourself some people skills.
OK.....Thought about that.....laughed about it......and will now forget about it. So we'll probably meet up again sometime. But don't be surprised that I haven't changed then too...especially if you haven't changed either. :wave:
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FineLinen
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums