Godfire - a Word Study

Charlie24

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I think I can both prove and make a case for "my doctrine," but what good is arguing if you reject everything I, and others, say?

Conversely, why do you keep posting on this thread and others, trying to convince others who have seen past the doctrines of churches?

I am currently reading a little book titled "Fossilized Customs." It is all about habits, customs, and holidays within Christianity...which trace back to paganism. It is stunning. It does not seem to be the main focus of the book, but I see Hell in the same light - a pagan belief that got into Christianity. Years ago, my quest for Truth in this area began when I saw a picture of the Tibetan Buddhist version of Hell, and realized that the only thing that separated it from the Christian Hell....was artistic style.

EDIT: I happen to have written a book on the subject of Hell, demonstrating how the UR view is a better doctrinal fit to the text of the Bible. It runs to over 240 pages now that I have added the chapter that makes up the first several posts of this thread. It would prove me case, but it is just not practical to post the whole thing here. OTOH, have you seen my "Condensation of Conclusions"?
If you want to read such things that's fine. I keep my thoughts and study directly on the Word of God. Theory and opinion can't lead me away from God's truth.

Every time I lay this to rest I"m called back, this time with a victory lap from one of your comrades. Enough is enough!

I set out this time to prove you can't prove your doctrine, you can only make a case for it.
 
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Lazarus Short

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You're correct: enough is enough. Here's my victory lap, and are you honest enough to look of the Scripture references? You did say that you keep your thoughts/study directly on the Word of God.

A CONDENSATION OF CONCLUSIONS ABOUT HEL, HELL AND THE KJV



1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation of the Cosmos - therefore, Hell is apparently uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5. John 1:3 explicitly states that God made all, and that no other person or agency made anything. To back that up, the Bible contains many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together as a term…without “hell.”

2. In the first chapter of Genesis, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.

3. The Creation as described in Genesis is properly a hierarchy, not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell – with the Earth and humans as a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.

4. God made both good and evil, for the same Hand that planted the Tree of Life aurely also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.

5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell, so Satan is NOT the Prince of Hell. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.

6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan, as it specifically refers to him as a man. See Ezekiel 26 - 28.

7. The Law God gave to Moses warned of death, but did not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments were delivered in the real world, and the most severe was simple death. See Genesis 2:17, Exodus through Deuteronomy, Romans 6:23.

8. Nearly all the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes death, destruction, perishing, God’s wrath and His cursings. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4. The only exception is the banishment of the unrighteous to the Lake of Fire – but that is for their ultimate salvation, otherwise Death cannot be defeated and God cannot become All in all, as we read in I Corinthians 15.

9. All people die, but none of them go to Eternal Conscious Torment – only to the grave or pit. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with “hell” (if present) properly replaced with “sheol” or “hades,” as so often noted in the marginal or center-column reference.

10. For the Hebrews, “sheol,” hidden, covered and unknown, was the state, condition or place of the dead. It was where the body returned to the dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it). See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

11. Eternal Conscious Torment depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato. It is clearly pagan.

12. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there – and thus, for most of living (and dead) humanity.

13. Hell violates God’s Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7,16.

14. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous, due to the presence of God’s Spirit of Life in each of us. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

15. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it’s also cold as…Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but Mary K Baxter depicts Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in Eternal Conscious Torment, you must be alive, but you’re dead, and on and on… Fictional descriptions of Hell, especially as seen in the works of Dante, Milton and Baxter, are clearly fictional and un-Biblical.

16. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not to destroy them or send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.

17. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.

18. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our eventual salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.

19. God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – usually as fire, but sometimes as soap. Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God’s Fire. See Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.

20. If God’s Fire is for baptism and refining, then that which is burned must be our carnal, sinful nature. It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire. See Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:11-15.

21. “Hell” is used in the King James Version (and others) to replace four other words: “Sheol,” “Hades,” “Gehenna” and “Tartarus.” None of these refer to a place of damnation or Eternal Conscious Torment. See any decent dictionary, especially the Oxford English Dictionary.

22. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is an imposition, an insertion into the text. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.

23. Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, such as the “Hel” we find in Norse mythology, but follow the truth of God’s Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word “hell,” except in imperfect translations.
 
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Saint Steven

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However we define "eternal" has to be applied to both "punishment" and "life".
If the "punishment" isn't "eternal", then neither is the life.

Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Matthew 25:46 New International Version (NIV)
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


Saint Steven said:
Here's a shocker.
Even eternal life isn't eternal. (ouch)
 
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FineLinen

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Wouldn't say that "aionios" not meaning eternal is a matter of your opinion and not fact?

Would anyone have reason not to believe your opinion from this information?

Or is your opinion the inspired Word of the Almighty God?

Charles: The Apostle St. John defines aionios very clearly.

This is zoe aionios that we may know You...
 
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Saint Steven

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aionios, the Greek word translated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)


The doctrine of eternal hell is so shocking that it deserves a careful examination. In this video we discuss the meaning of the word "aionios" by its other appearances in the Bible, not relying on dictionary definitions.
 
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Charlie24

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I personally believe the universalists spend maybe to much time discovering the unknown.

They seem to pick up where the Bible ends and explore "what if."

It's obvious that they don't spend enough time in scripture to learn Gods word, but use that time to study things do not profit them in the Lord.

Just my honest observation.
 
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Lazarus Short

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I personally believe the universalists spend maybe to much time discovering the unknown.

They seem to pick up where the Bible ends and explore "what if."

It's obvious that they don't spend enough time in scripture to learn Gods word, but use that time to study things do not profit them in the Lord.

Just my honest observation.

My list of conclusions with Biblical references says you are wrong about "the unknown."
 
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Shrewd Manager

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ESV Jn. 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal (aionios) life.

Damnationists' interpretation of Jn 3:16:

'For God so hated the world that he killed his only begotten son, so if you don't love Him, you'll burn in hell forever and ever....and ever'.

Universalists' interpretation:

'For God so loved the world that He didn't even hold back His only begotten son, so you can trust that He's not gonna let you perish'.

See the difference?
 
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Charlie24

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Damnationists' interpretation of Jn 3:16:

'For God so hated the world that he killed his only begotten son, so if you don't love Him, you'll burn in hell forever and ever....and ever'.

Universalists' interpretation:

'For God so loved the world that He didn't even hold back His only begotten son, so you can trust that He's not gonna let you perish'.

See the difference?

One of us will have a BIG surprise when we meet the Almighty.

If I'm wrong, no big deal. If you are wrong, it's a really big deal!

You will have given hope of salvation in the end to those who hate Christ.
 
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Saint Steven

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It's obvious that they don't spend enough time in scripture to learn Gods word, but use that time to study things do not profit them in the Lord.
That's not fair.
Most if not all of us have been raised in the church and have had extensive studies in the Bible. The greater hope requires tons more study to get a grip on. I recommended the Thomas Allin book to you. Did you see what a long book that is. And you promised to read it. How is that going?

And believe me, this is VERY profitable.
 
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Saint Steven

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One of us will have a BIG surprise when we meet the Almighty.

If I'm wrong, no big deal. If you are wrong, it's a really big deal!

You will have given hope of salvation in the end to those who hate Christ.
Seriously?
Do you think God is not concerned with those who bear false witness against him and slander his Fatherhood and love for humankind? Those who make him out to be an unforgiving tyrant.
 
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Charlie24

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That's not fair.
Most if not all of us have been raised in the church and have had extensive studies in the Bible. The greater hope requires tons more study to get a grip on. I recommended the Thomas Allin book to you. Did you see what a long book that is. And you promised to read it. How is that going?

And believe me, this is VERY profitable.
I see it as fair, Steven.

Not trying to be rude, just honest.

I have witnessed first hand your lack of knowledge in scripture. I have pointed out many scriptures you didn't even know existed. I have shown you from scripture the true meaning of many verses you have taken completely out of context.

You should know better than this with your background.

But instead of studying to see these mistakes, you're off on a study of tongues that will profit you little.

I'm not trying to become your enemy, I'm trying be your friend.
 
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Saint Steven

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I see it as fair, Steven.

Not trying to be rude, just honest.

I have witnessed first hand your lack of knowledge in scripture. I have pointed out many scriptures you didn't even know existed. I have shown you from scripture the true meaning of many verses you have taken completely out of context.

You should know better than this with your background.

But instead of studying to see these mistakes, you're off on a study of tongues that will profit you little.

I'm not trying to become your enemy, I'm trying be your friend.
Thanks, but that's a complete mischaracterization of me.
And I will not engage in self-defense beyond saying that.
 
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Saint Steven

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But instead of studying to see these mistakes, you're off on a study of tongues that will profit you little.
Actually my study of tongues happened 40 years ago. And it was very profitable.
 
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Charlie24

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That chapter is about ultimate redemption. Restoration. (see chapter heading below)
The separation is NOT eternal.

Isaiah 59:1-2 (NIV)
Sin, Confession and Redemption
1 Surely the arm of the Lord is not too short to save,
nor his ear too dull to hear.
2 But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear.
We've had enough of "eternal" for one day haven't we, Steven?
 
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Saint Steven

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We've had enough of "eternal" for one day haven't we, Steven?
You are missing the point.
This is about your out-of-context claim that the "separation" in Is.59:2 was eternal.

Saint Steven said:
That chapter is about ultimate redemption. Restoration. (see chapter heading below)
The separation is NOT eternal.

Isaiah 59:1-2 (NIV)
Sin, Confession and Redemption
1 Surely the arm of the Lord is not too short to save,
nor his ear too dull to hear.
2 But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear.
 
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