The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

bobsmename

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But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker. Gal2:17&18

I guess, moving beyond milk, and getting into the meat of the word would include doing exegesis of passages such as the above, rather than simply selectively quoting the letter, something the pharisees of Jesus day could endlessly do without understanding the message that letter contained
 
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To all:

Galatians 2:17-18 is Paul talking about how if he seeks to rebuild the Law of Moses he would be a transgressor. The Law of Moses is no more (See Hebrews 8:13). The law has changed (See Hebrews 7:12). The temple veil was torn from top to bottom. In Galatians 2:17-18: Paul is not referring to the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2), or the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25).
 
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Neogaia777

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Do you think Peter did not think of himself as a sinner still when he wrote this (1 Peter 4:8) "Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins." Or did he just have compassion on other sinners maybe, or what do you think...?

Or, how about some OT, (Proverbs 10:12) "Hatred stirs up strife,
But love covers all sins." Notice it says "all", etc...

Either way, how many of you on here will lay claim to being 100% pure and 100% totally sinless, and any point in you life, or even right now presently, or think you will be in the future at some point in this (fallen) world and existence and life the way it currently is, etc...?

Any of you going to lay claim to that, etc...?

And if you not going to, how are you then going to saved if you are living by or are under the letter of the law, etc...?

Especially if you do not love, etc...? And some of you are saying and laying claim to the fact that you do love, or are having love, etc, but are showing something quite the very much exact opposite of love, etc...

Besides the fact that you are a major hypocrite, how do you ever expect to be saved, etc...?

There is no hope for you, you have fallen from Grace (Mercy, Love, etc)...

1 Corinthians 1:1-8- "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.

Are you perfect in this always...? And I mean always and all of the time, etc...?

To say nothing of "all of the rest of scripture" you claim to be perfect in, etc...?

So, if you are not perfect, how can you judge or have such a double standard...?

John 8:7- "He that is without sin among you, let him be the first to cast a stone"

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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To all:

We have to move beyond just having the milk of the Word alone (God's grace), but we have to also accept the meat of the Word. The meat of the Word is to be able to discern between good and evil (See: Hebrews 5:14). Most today seek to justify sin under God's grace and thereby they are not discerning properly between good and evil.

Side Note:

Again, I am not saying we do not need God's grace. We always need God's grace, but we also need to enter the Sanctification Process as a part of salvation, too (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:24, and John 5:24). For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).
Any gospel or word that says or preaches or teaches "Christ plus something to be justified always and in every single case before God" is a heretical gospel and is no different than trying to be justified from and/or under/by the Law of Moses...

And to judge that for "everyone all each equally across the board and for all without making any individual distinctions at all ever" is just so very, very wrong on so many levels that I hardly know where to begin in tearing it down or ripping it apart, etc... cause it needs to be torn down or ripped apart, etc...

You don't see the serious wrong in it seriously...?

We are not supposed to be judging those kinds of things at all, not for ourselves even, let alone for anyone else "not ourselves", etc...

Let God do his job, and let Him be in and have His rightful place, and quit trying to be Him, OK...?

The knowledge of good and evil was what gave/gives sin and death it's power over us and caused all this great evil that we see now today, and have seen throughout history, etc...

God Bless!
 
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jahel

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Failure to abide in Christ is a mortal sin.
Mortal sin really seems to be a misapplied term for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Christ continually abides for us so where He is so are we spiritually.
Initially He is the door thru which we may come and go, but eventually a pillar that doesn’t move away from God is applied to the overcomer.
Revelation 3:12, John 10
 
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bobsmename

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We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[d] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
17 ‘But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker. Gal2:15-18

A person is justified before God the moment they accept Christ as their saviour. So what justification is Paul talking about in the above, one that obviously takes time to achieve?



But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. Rom6:17&18

God will accept you even when you are dead in transgressions(Eph2:5) but you cannot remain in that state, steeped in the worst of sins/slaves to the those sins. You have to cross over from being a slave of sin, when you come to Christ, into a slave of righteousness leading to holiness. Leading to holiness means you are still not perfect once you have crossed over from one state to the other. But this crossing over takes time, it is not instantaneous. You seek for your Christianity to be justified in respect of crossing over from one state to the other, and this is achieved by faith in Christ, not striving to defeat the sin yourself/works of the law.
A person becomes a christian, is born again. They are a drunk, foul mouthed, habitual thief, and have continuous affairs. God will accept them there and then by faith in Christ, and the crossing over period begins. The new believer joins a church and attends one night. He heartily joins in the service with great enthusiasm, but alcohol can be smelt on their breath. Someone who does not understand the true gospel message may well think: ‘If this person is saved Christ must promote sin, for here he is, an evident sinner, smelling of alcohol while rejoicing in his salvation.’ The new convert however hates the sin that still binds him, for he has been born again, but despite the sin, he is still entitled to praise God for what he has done for him in Christ, for he is standing on a righteousness of faith in Christ, not one of observing the law, and trusting Christ to free him from his slavery. Otherwise he must go around in sackcloth and ashes until he is as pure as the driven snow. .
Immediately after Paul asks the question ‘Does Christ promote sin, he answers it. ‘Absolutely not, if I rebuild what I destroyed I really would be a lawbreaker.’ In other words, if Paul sought to justify his Christianity by not committing sin, he would fail, and simply prove he was a lawbreaker.

BTW
Im not saying drinking alcohol without drunkeness is sin, just using it as an example here
 
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bobsmename

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At the age of ten I responded to an altar call. I had been a normal healthy kid before I did so, but everything was about to change. The first big difference I noticed was, I became aware of my faults/sins in a way I never had previously (yes, even at that age!) I was determined to follow Christ and live a pure and holy life, for that is how in my heart I wanted to live. But as I now had the law within me, I could not hide from that law. If I lived as I had previously lived, I would be going against it. At times I got angry, and knew this was wrong, it was going against God’s moral law(didn’t reason it that way that young) so I had to stop being angry. I had unkind thoughts about some others, that was wrong also. I didn’t love many others as I should, that was wrong too. And I had a conscience about not always acting as I should act. In fact, I was starting to become much less happy than I had been before I made a commitment to Christ, for now I was burdened by my imperfections as I had not previously been.

Then I reached puberty, and along came impure thoughts. I so much did not want them, I knew they were sin (it was breaking the moral law inside of me) but no matter how hard I tried to resist them, they would not stop. In truth, I feared them, they could send me to hell, for Christians must live a life of obeying God, you cannot expect to attain heaven if you live a life of sin. The more I feared those thoughts, the more I feared they could send me to hell, the worse they got. I was not a happy young man anymore. I was guilt ridden by my inability to obey God, and live a pure and holy life for him. I started to feel condemned, and all the time the sin got worse. On the outside, I could still appear to be living a very good and holy life, but the inside was completely different. I was despondant, and felt it was all hopeless, I would end up in hell because I could not live as others did I saw in church on Sundays. For I imagined they were afflicted with none of the faults I had, they constantly told me how I should live my life, and we must obey God/his laws. So surely they were obeying them whilst I on the inside was not.

In the end, I walked away from the church. I refused to be a hypocrite, I could not live as Christians should live. I certainly could not be righteous before God by obeying his good and holy laws. I was a condemned sinner who would be cast into hell.

Looking back at that time, how can I describe it? I had felt alive once before the law came to me as it did, for there was no condemnation then, but when it did come, sin(consciousness) sprang to life and I died/felt condemned. The commandment that I believed would give me life/enable me to be a Christian and attain to heaven(if I obeyed it), instead brought death (for I could not keep it). Through my knowledge of the commandments all manner of sin was aroused in me. For sin took occasion of the commandment to arouse all manner of concupiscence in me. Was the law death for me? No, the law itself is holy, just and good, but sin took occasion of what was holy, just and good to make me exccedingly sinfull, and through it condemn me. (Rom7:7-13)


Fortunately for me, a few years later someone gave me a book, and in it was a chapter on Paul’s message of grace. I was stunned by what I read. I could have no righteousnerss of obeying God’s laws. No one had ever told me that before in churches. Abut as it was plainly written I believed it. But what of the sin? I didn’t want it for I was born again. I had been a slave to breaking the commandment: Thou shalt not covet where masturbation was concerned for six years. It only got worse when I believed such sin could send me to hell. But now I gave it to God and trusted I was saved because Jesus was my righteousness before him, I had no other. For three days the masturbation continued, I was breaking God’s moral law, however, for the first time in my life I did not let myself believe it condemned me, I trusted I was righteous in Gods sight because Jesus died for me. Those three days were so hard, I had discard logic and just cling to faith in Christ. A voice relentlessly told me in my head, I was just faking christianity, I was a hypocrite, I could not be saved due to what I was doing. But I kept looking to Christ and trusting him. On the fourth day, this sin I had a slave to for six years stopped. While I lived under righteousness of observing the law it only got worse. Paul wrote:

For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law(of righteousness) but under grace(righteousness of faith in Christ) Rom 6:14 But few it seems dare to actually believe it. For as Jesus said:

Many after drinking the old wine don’t want the new, for they say ‘the old is better’ Luke5:39
 
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BNR32FAN

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Simple message of guidance. Not in anyway micromanagement.
That seems to be according to nature. Old nature, without the means to advance.
They had not received the message that gave to them eternal life.
No we don’t see that. We see teachers who are not teachers.

Sorry I didn’t have a chance to properly address this earlier because I was working.

The warning here is about grieving the Holy Spirit by indulging in sin. That’s been the message since chapter 4. Your answers don’t address the verses and who Paul is writing to. You seem to be separating the verses as if Paul were addressing two different groups. For example when Paul said
Mortal sin really seems to be a misapplied term for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Christ continually abides for us so where He is so are we spiritually.
Initially He is the door thru which we may come and go, but eventually a pillar that doesn’t move away from God is applied to the overcomer.
Revelation 3:12, John 10

Their becoming a pillar is contingent on their holding fast to their faith. Yes once someone is added to the New Jerusalem they will not go out anymore.

“Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:10-12‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Im guessing your reference to John 10 is pertaining to verses 27-29 in which being one of His sheep is contingent on hearing and FOLLOWING. Just like Matthew 7:21-27 we must hear His words and ACT on them.
 
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jahel

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Sorry I didn’t have a chance to properly address this earlier because I was working.

The warning here is about grieving the Holy Spirit by indulging in sin. That’s been the message since chapter 4. Your answers don’t address the verses and who Paul is writing to. You seem to be separating the verses as if Paul were addressing two different groups. For example when Paul said


Their becoming a pillar is contingent on their holding fast to their faith. Yes once someone is added to the New Jerusalem they will not go out anymore.

“Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:10-12‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Im guessing your reference to John 10 is pertaining to verses 27-29 in which being one of His sheep is contingent on hearing and FOLLOWING. Just like Matthew 7:21-27 we must hear His words and ACT on them.
Mortal sin really seems to be a misapplied term for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Christ continually abides for us so where He is so are we spiritually.
Initially He is the door thru which we may come and go, but eventually a pillar that doesn’t move away from God is applied to the overcomer.
Revelation 3:12, John 10
It’s what I see scripture saying. Higher and lower critics would refer to Noah’s baptism and God being the one who closes the door.

I case you missed it there is no more judgement by water, only by fire.
 
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HatGuy

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At the age of ten I responded to an altar call. I had been a normal healthy kid before I did so, but everything was about to change. The first big difference I noticed was, I became aware of my faults/sins in a way I never had previously (yes, even at that age!) I was determined to follow Christ and live a pure and holy life, for that is how in my heart I wanted to live. But as I now had the law within me, I could not hide from that law. If I lived as I had previously lived, I would be going against it. At times I got angry, and knew this was wrong, it was going against God’s moral law(didn’t reason it that way that young) so I had to stop being angry. I had unkind thoughts about some others, that was wrong also. I didn’t love many others as I should, that was wrong too. And I had a conscience about not always acting as I should act. In fact, I was starting to become much less happy than I had been before I made a commitment to Christ, for now I was burdened by my imperfections as I had not previously been.

Then I reached puberty, and along came impure thoughts. I so much did not want them, I knew they were sin (it was breaking the moral law inside of me) but no matter how hard I tried to resist them, they would not stop. In truth, I feared them, they could send me to hell, for Christians must live a life of obeying God, you cannot expect to attain heaven if you live a life of sin. The more I feared those thoughts, the more I feared they could send me to hell, the worse they got. I was not a happy young man anymore. I was guilt ridden by my inability to obey God, and live a pure and holy life for him. I started to feel condemned, and all the time the sin got worse. On the outside, I could still appear to be living a very good and holy life, but the inside was completely different. I was despondant, and felt it was all hopeless, I would end up in hell because I could not live as others did I saw in church on Sundays. For I imagined they were afflicted with none of the faults I had, they constantly told me how I should live my life, and we must obey God/his laws. So surely they were obeying them whilst I on the inside was not.

In the end, I walked away from the church. I refused to be a hypocrite, I could not live as Christians should live. I certainly could not be righteous before God by obeying his good and holy laws. I was a condemned sinner who would be cast into hell.

Looking back at that time, how can I describe it? I had felt alive once before the law came to me as it did, for there was no condemnation then, but when it did come, sin(consciousness) sprang to life and I died/felt condemned. The commandment that I believed would give me life/enable me to be a Christian and attain to heaven(if I obeyed it), instead brought death (for I could not keep it). Through my knowledge of the commandments all manner of sin was aroused in me. For sin took occasion of the commandment to arouse all manner of concupiscence in me. Was the law death for me? No, the law itself is holy, just and good, but sin took occasion of what was holy, just and good to make me exccedingly sinfull, and through it condemn me. (Rom7:7-13)


Fortunately for me, a few years later someone gave me a book, and in it was a chapter on Paul’s message of grace. I was stunned by what I read. I could have no righteousnerss of obeying God’s laws. No one had ever told me that before in churches. Abut as it was plainly written I believed it. But what of the sin? I didn’t want it for I was born again. I had been a slave to breaking the commandment: Thou shalt not covet where masturbation was concerned for six years. It only got worse when I believed such sin could send me to hell. But now I gave it to God and trusted I was saved because Jesus was my righteousness before him, I had no other. For three days the masturbation continued, I was breaking God’s moral law, however, for the first time in my life I did not let myself believe it condemned me, I trusted I was righteous in Gods sight because Jesus died for me. Those three days were so hard, I had discard logic and just cling to faith in Christ. A voice relentlessly told me in my head, I was just faking christianity, I was a hypocrite, I could not be saved due to what I was doing. But I kept looking to Christ and trusting him. On the fourth day, this sin I had a slave to for six years stopped. While I lived under righteousness of observing the law it only got worse. Paul wrote:

For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law(of righteousness) but under grace(righteousness of faith in Christ) Rom 6:14 But few it seems dare to actually believe it. For as Jesus said:

Many after drinking the old wine don’t want the new, for they say ‘the old is better’ Luke5:39
Thank you for sharing this. It's great when we move from the abstract to the reality. Great testimony and so stoked the gospel and Spirit broke through for you. Jesus is awesome.
 
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It’s what I see scripture saying. Higher and lower critics would refer to Noah’s baptism and God being the one who closes the door.

I case you missed it there is no more judgement by water, only by fire.

I don’t see how this is relevant to my post.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I don’t see how yours was relevant to mine.

I directly quoted and explained the scriptures YOU PROVIDED. How is that not relevant?

Here I’ll post it again.

Simple message of guidance. Not in anyway micromanagement.
That seems to be according to nature. Old nature, without the means to advance.
They had not received the message that gave to them eternal life.
No we don’t see that. We see teachers who are not teachers.

Sorry I didn’t have a chance to properly address this earlier because I was working.

The warning here is about grieving the Holy Spirit by indulging in sin. That’s been the message since chapter 4. Your answers don’t address the verses and who Paul is writing to. You seem to be separating the verses as if Paul were addressing two different groups. For example when Paul said
Mortal sin really seems to be a misapplied term for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Christ continually abides for us so where He is so are we spiritually.
Initially He is the door thru which we may come and go, but eventually a pillar that doesn’t move away from God is applied to the overcomer.
Revelation 3:12, John 10

Their becoming a pillar is contingent on their holding fast to their faith. Yes once someone is added to the New Jerusalem they will not go out anymore.

“Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:10-12‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Im guessing your reference to John 10 is pertaining to verses 27-29 in which being one of His sheep is contingent on hearing and FOLLOWING. Just like Matthew 7:21-27 we must hear His words and ACT on them.
 
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jahel

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But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.
Simple message of guidance. Not in anyway micromanagement.
For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
That seems to be according to nature. Old nature, without the means to advance.
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
They had not received the message that gave to them eternal life.
Here we can see that Paul is warning the saints in Ephesus who are faithful to Christ and whom are sealed with the Holy Spirit to the day of redemption of turning to a sinful way of life that will result in them receiving the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience.
No we don’t see that. We see teachers who are not teachers.

If you want to rebuke that they didn’t turn away but had not the Word from those with empty words, do so.
 
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Most do not really get intimate with everyone there and get to know each other and go over each other's homes and or help the new person to follow Jesus and to live holy and to study His Word. They do not go out and help the poor, and spread the gospel in their area.
No community outside the walls.
 
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Thank you for sharing this. It's great when we move from the abstract to the reality. Great testimony and so stoked the gospel and Spirit broke through for you. Jesus is awesome.

I find the testimony as not reflecting the gospel at all. God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). Hebrews 5:9 essentially says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him.
 
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I find the testimony as not reflecting the gospel at all. God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). Hebrews 5:9 essentially says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him.
How could this not reflect the gospel? The power of God ended sin in someone's life. Why would that not be gospel? Isn't that what we want - obedience? It happened through God's power!
 
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How could this not reflect the gospel? The power of God ended sin in someone's life. Why would that not be gospel? Isn't that what we want - obedience? It happened through God's power!

I do not believe he is saying he overcame grievous sin. I got the impression that he was suggesting that we cannot obey Jesus and that his solution is to simply believe in Jesus alone for salvation (and not worry about his sin anymore because Jesus paid for it all). For he was asking me if I did certain teachings by Jesus (suggesting or implying that it is impossible to obey them).
 
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I do not believe he is saying he overcame grievous sin.

You didn't read it then...

Near the end of his post (guessing you didn't read it that far), "this sin I had a slave to for six years stopped. While I lived under righteousness of observing the law it only got worse." "Ect"...

God Bless!
 
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