The ability of God - Does God always get His will done?

Kermos · Jan 5, 2020

God is omnipotent while man is impotent in the salvation of man.

The following posts of this thread are richly laden in the Word of God.

Revealing the links between John 17:20, John 15:16, and John 15:13-15 post

Paul wrote that God is the potter and we are the clay (Romans 9:18-29), but free-willians denounce the words of Paul post

Free-willians false claim that God is responsible sin in sinners (what some call cognitive dissonance) post in this thread

Neiher the IF/THEN logic conditional contruct nor a command conveys ability post along with the how the account of Cain and Abel relates with the IF/THEN logic post along with A BIBLICAL DECLARATION OF ABILITY AND INABILITY - CAPABILITY EXAMINED with COMMANDS EXPOSE GOOD AND EVIL - NOT CAPABILITY post

contrasting the old nature and the new nature post

debunking the Free-willian "sadistic cruel deity" and "spiritual rape" absurdities post

salvation and fruit, both are the acts of God alone post then expaonding into coalescing (1) fruit of the Spirit, (2) God's exclusive choosing of men, and (3) being a friend of Jesus

Our merciful and loving God is Benefactor, and we believers are beneficiaries post

Free-willians are outside of saving grace for they cannot please God (Romans 8:8) as well as they cannot understand spiritual things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14) unless God opens their eyes post

the unrighteous precepts of men includes "free will", a.k.a. "free choice", toward God post

the error of Armenians/Free-willians exposed post

The accurate grammatical structure of Revelation 13:8 analyzed post, and do not neglect the parallel in Revelation 17:8 and Matthew 25:34!

the meaning of "receive" post with application in Acts 2:38-39 and the subsequent we believers receive the Holy Spirit post

the "whoever believes" in John 3:16 is constrained by "believe" definition in John 6:29 and the "world" in John 17:9 has implications for "world" in John 3:16 post

"choose whom you will serve" in Joshua 24:15 does not indicate ability to serve God post

repentance is of/by/from God in man with accurate BIBLICAL CITATIONS post

"free will" does not occur in the New Testament except in Philemon 1:14 as an illusory metaphor post

"free will" and "self will" exist in a tightly-coupled relationship, see 2 Peter 2:9-10 and Philemon 1:14, post

proclaiming the gospel where there is no "free will"

The "you" occurrances in John 15:16 is the same as "you" occurrances in John 15:13-15 and John 15:16 and John 14:16-17 which are for all us believers in all time post. This is Love!

We believers on the Lord Jesus Christ receive the most valuable Treasure according to God's good pleasure!

renniks · Jan 5, 2020

Kermos said:
The Apostle Paul wrote "your goodness would not be, as it were, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).

You are totally missing the context:
That thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly; that is, that his goodness in forgiving his servant, and renouncing all claim and property in him, and admitting him to continue in the service of the apostle, might not look like a forced thing; but that it might appear to be a voluntary action, when he should of himself return him, after he had been sent to him, and received by him.

" As it were" does not mean what you are trying to make it mean. It's not a statement about the existence of Free Will. That's not even the topic.

renniks · Jan 5, 2020

Kermos said:
You neglected that Paul wrote of individual salvation with "So then it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (Romans 9:16) thus eliminating any "will" for man in salvation while ATTRIBUTING THE ENTIRETY OF SALVATION TO GOD WHO HAS MERCY!

And you again ignore context. What is according to God's mercy? Paul has been explaining that Issac was chosen over Esau, not for salvation, but as leader of Israel. Paul is explaining how the plan of salvation was worked out. Later he explains how to become saved.

renniks · Jan 5, 2020

Kermos said:
Renniks, please see the next post that God has me post!

It's hard to take you seriously, when you post arrogant statements like this!

renniks · Jan 5, 2020

Kermos said:
Fall down in front of the Consuming Fire and cry for mercy for your rebellion.

I can't. I have no free will.

Kermos · Jan 5, 2020

renniks said:
You are totally missing the context:
That thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly; that is, that his goodness in forgiving his servant, and renouncing all claim and property in him, and admitting him to continue in the service of the apostle, might not look like a forced thing; but that it might appear to be a voluntary action, when he should of himself return him, after he had been sent to him, and received by him.

" As it were" does not mean what you are trying to make it mean. It's not a statement about the existence of Free Will. That's not even the topic.

You wrote it, renniks, with "that it might appear to be a voluntary action" THAT YOU WROTE BECAUSE IT IS NOT FREE WILL.

The phrase "as it were" linguistically means "as if it were so"; therefore the stated cause is not the true cause thus the stated cause is illusory.

You deny that a believers good works are wrought in God for thus says the Lord Jesus "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5, John 3:21).

The Apostle Paul wrote "your goodness would not be, as it were, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).

The resultant "effect" is "your goodness" which is a work of God for Lord Jesus says "he who practices the truth" "his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21), but Paul includes only two potential "causes" for the resulting "effect".

Cause 1: "by compulsion"

Cause 2: "free will"

But, here's the thing, "as it were" means "as if it were really so" which means that the "free will" mentioned by Paul is illusory.

But there's more, the "by compulsion" is not referred to as illusory. Compulsion is concrete per the linguistics of the sentence.

You do not understand linguistics, but worse, you add to and subtract from scripture which carries a deadly end (Revelation 22:18-19).

You snipped out the Word of God from the post, again, and that's akin to you denying the Word of God. Behold, the Word of God Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), of which you deny pertains to you, and Lord Jesus says "whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 10:33)!

Kermos · Jan 5, 2020

renniks said:
And you again ignore context. What is according to God's mercy? Paul has been explaining that Issac was chosen over Esau, not for salvation, but as leader of Israel. Paul is explaining how the plan of salvation was worked out. Later he explains how to become saved.

Issac. Issac. You don't even know who is who. You cannot possibly know the meaning of the scripture. Paul wrote "it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (Romans 9:16), so it's "not on the man who wills" - that's you renniks for you claim that you can will toward God, but the Apostle says it's "not on the man who wills". The only indication that this is about leadership; on the other hand, the Apostle Paul says it is about man dependence on God's mercy. The Apostle says it's "on God who has mercy"; therefore, IT IS ABOUT SALVATION. BY THE ROMANS 9:16 IS AFTER ROMANS 9:13 WHICH MENTIONS ESAU, SO THIS IS LATER WHERE PAUL EXPLAINS SALVATION.

As a result, Paul agrees that you are in rebellion in your claimed free will choice toward God - you against the Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

renniks · Jan 5, 2020

Kermos said:
You wrote it, renniks, with "that it might appear to be a voluntary action" THAT YOU WROTE BECAUSE IT IS NOT FREE WILL.

Lol. There's no discussion going on in the verse about whether Free Will exists. He's saying that he doesn't want it to appear as if Philemon is being coerced by Paul, but that he is releasing his slave willingly.

Kermos · Jan 5, 2020

renniks said:
I can't. I have no free will.

Not without the intervention of Almighty God for Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

renniks · Jan 5, 2020

Kermos said:
Issac. Issac. You don't even know who is who. You cannot possibly know the meaning of the scripture.

Because I make a technical error doesn't mean I don't understand what the scripture means.

renniks · Jan 5, 2020

Kermos said:
Not without the intervention of Almighty God for Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Yes, he said he chooses some to certain tasks. Not choosing some for salvation. And even that choosing is not irresistible.

renniks · Jan 5, 2020

Kermos said:
Issac. Issac. You don't even know who is who. You cannot possibly know the meaning of the scripture. Paul wrote "it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (Romans 9:16), so it's "not on the man who wills" - that's you renniks for you claim that you can will toward God, but the Apostle says it's "not on the man who wills". The only indication that this is about leadership; on the other hand, the Apostle Paul says it is about man dependence on God's mercy. The Apostle says it's "on God who has mercy"; therefore, IT IS ABOUT SALVATION. BY THE ROMANS 9:16 IS AFTER ROMANS 9:13 WHICH MENTIONS ESAU, SO THIS IS LATER WHERE PAUL EXPLAINS SALVATION.

As a result, Paul agrees that you are in rebellion in your claimed free will choice toward God - you against the Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Now, let's take a look at where Paul is quoting from when he says this:
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
In Exodus 33,
15 Then Moses said to him, “If your Presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. 16 How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us? What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?”

17 And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”

18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

Here we have a situation where Moses basically wins an argument with God. But, notice what God tells him. He does what Moses asks because he is pleased with Moses! What happened to your god of determinism? I see no confirmation here of unconditional election, but just the opposite.

And while we are at it, let's see where Paul gets the Potter and Clay analogy.

Jeremiah 18 English Standard Version (ESV)
The Potter and the Clay
18 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will let you hear[a] my words.” 3 So I went down to the potter's house, and there he was working at his wheel. 4 And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.

5 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the Lord. Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it. 11 Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: ‘Thus says the Lord, Behold, I am shaping disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your deeds.’

Another verse confirming free will both on man and God's part.

renniks · Jan 5, 2020

Kermos said:
As a result, Paul agrees that you are in rebellion in your claimed free will choice toward God - you against the Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Lol. ROTFLOL. Here you manage to contradict yourself in the same sentence! How can I be in rebellion if I have no choices? I can't be against the Word of God if God is irrisistably causing everything I do. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either free will is real or there's no such thing as rebellion.

Kermos · Jan 6, 2020

renniks said:
Because I make a technical error doesn't mean I don't understand what the scripture means.

It reflects your larger error of denying Lord Jesus' words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). God willing, more to come on this matter of critical import.

Kermos · Jan 6, 2020

renniks said:
Yes, he said he chooses some to certain tasks. Not choosing some for salvation. And even that choosing is not irresistible.

"I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) is the same passage where Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16); therefore, the choosing of God includes salvation. You cannot choose Jesus unto salvation, and every time you claim the "choosing is not irresistible" you demonstrate your denial of the Word of God, and the Word of God says "whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 10:33).

Kermos · Jan 6, 2020

renniks said:
Now, let's take a look at where Paul is quoting from when he says this:
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
In Exodus 33,
15 Then Moses said to him, “If your Presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. 16 How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us? What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?”

17 And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”

18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

Here we have a situation where Moses basically wins an argument with God. But, notice what God tells him. He does what Moses asks because he is pleased with Moses! What happened to your god of determinism? I see no confirmation here of unconditional election, but just the opposite.

And while we are at it, let's see where Paul gets the Potter and Clay analogy.

Jeremiah 18 English Standard Version (ESV)
The Potter and the Clay
18 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will let you hear[a] my words.” 3 So I went down to the potter's house, and there he was working at his wheel. 4 And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.

5 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the Lord. Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it. 11 Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: ‘Thus says the Lord, Behold, I am shaping disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your deeds.’

Another verse confirming free will both on man and God's part.

In Exodus 33, there is no mention of "free will" for man to choose God. Moses, a shadow of the Christ, intercedes for himself and the individuals in Israel (Acts 3:22-23, Deuteronomy 18:15), and we find in the NT "there is one God, [and] One Mediator also between God and men, [the] man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5). You added to the words of the Law, and that is forbidden with the words "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you" (Deuteronomy 4:2).

In Jeremiah 18, there is no mention of "free will" for man to choose God; furthermore, neither a conditional logic expression nor a command convey ability as demonstrated in this post in this thread. This passage speaks of the Power of God.

The Prophet Isaiah wrote of the Potter in this passage:

For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
There is no one who calls on Your name, Who arouses himself to take hold of You; For You have hidden Your face from us And have delivered us into the power of our iniquities.
But now, O YHWH, You are our Father, We are the clay, and You our potter; And all of us are the work of Your hand.
(Isaiah 64:6-8)

There is no mention of "free will" for man to choose God, in fact, "There is no one who calls on Your name" is specifically mentioned. This passage speaks of the Power of God.

Paul wrote of individual salvation and sanctification "who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this,' will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory" (Romans 9:20-23).

In essence, you persist with "Why did you make me like this" just as Paul wrote.

As a result, Paul agrees that you are in rebellion in your claimed free will choice toward God - you against the Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

renniks · Jan 6, 2020

Kermos said:
'Why did you make me like this,' will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory" (Romans 9:20-23)

Who is the lump of clay? The lump of clay is Israel.

18 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will let you hear[a] my words.” 3 So I went down to the potter's house, and there he was working at his wheel. 4 And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.

5 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the Lord. Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it. 11 Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: ‘Thus says the Lord, Behold, I am shaping disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your deeds.’

Who did God "endure with much patience?" Israel, his chosen people who often individually rejected him. What happened to those who rejected him?

Isaiah 65:
“But as for you who forsake the Lord
and forget my holy mountain,
who spread a table for Fortune
and fill bowls of mixed wine for Destiny,
12 I will destine you for the sword,
and all of you will fall in the slaughter;
for I called but you did not answer,
I spoke but you did not listen.
You did evil in my sight
and chose what displeases me.”

13 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“My servants will eat,
but you will go hungry;
my servants will drink,
but you will go thirsty;
my servants will rejoice,
but you will be put to shame.
14 My servants will sing
out of the joy of their hearts,
but you will cry out
from anguish of heart
and wail in brokenness of spirit.

God's choosing is not unconditional. Even among his chosen people, he chose for salvation those who chose to follow him by faith.
Who were "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?" His own people, Israel! They were prepared for destruction on account of their disobedience and running after other Gods, but he still showed patience and spared some of them in order to do what? To bring salvation to the gentiles ("to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory"). That's us. And how does one become chosen? Yes, we are offered salvation strictly because of God's mercy. We have not done anything to deserve his mercy.
“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”
Again, Paul borrows from the Old Testament to show that this prediction has now been fulfilled in the gentiles receiving the gospel.
30" What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. "

How does one become one of God's chosen? By faith. It's not complicated. It's not fatalism, it's not fate, it's responding to Gods offer of mercy and becoming his child.

You can continue to add to the Word or you can accept what it clearly says.

Kermos · Jan 6, 2020

renniks said:
Lol. ROTFLOL. Here you manage to contradict yourself in the same sentence! How can I be in rebellion if I have no choices? I can't be against the Word of God if God is irrisistably causing everything I do. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either free will is real or there's no such thing as rebellion.

Actually, the natural man's state defaults to rebellion against the Word of God as demonstrated in this post in this thread; furthermore, it is written that the natural man is outside of saving grace for the he cannot please God (Romans 8:8) as well as he cannot understand spiritual things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14) unless God opens his eyes post in this thread.

Your roll on the floor lots of laughs (ROTFLOL) mocks the Word of God, and God does not tolerate such mockery without punishment (Galatians 6:7-8). Your self will is arrogance and pride against God (2 Peter 2:9-10).

You are in rebellion in your claimed free will choice toward God - you against the Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Kermos · Jan 6, 2020

renniks said:
Who is the lump of clay? The lump of clay is Israel.

18 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will let you hear[a] my words.” 3 So I went down to the potter's house, and there he was working at his wheel. 4 And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.

5 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the Lord. Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it. 11 Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: ‘Thus says the Lord, Behold, I am shaping disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your deeds.’

Who did God "endure with much patience?" Israel, his chosen people who often individually rejected him. What happened to those who rejected him?

Isaiah 65:
“But as for you who forsake the Lord
and forget my holy mountain,
who spread a table for Fortune
and fill bowls of mixed wine for Destiny,
12 I will destine you for the sword,
and all of you will fall in the slaughter;
for I called but you did not answer,
I spoke but you did not listen.
You did evil in my sight
and chose what displeases me.”

13 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“My servants will eat,
but you will go hungry;
my servants will drink,
but you will go thirsty;
my servants will rejoice,
but you will be put to shame.
14 My servants will sing
out of the joy of their hearts,
but you will cry out
from anguish of heart
and wail in brokenness of spirit.

God's choosing is not unconditional. Even among his chosen people, he chose for salvation those who chose to follow him by faith.
Who were "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?" His own people, Israel! They were prepared for destruction on account of their disobedience and running after other Gods, but he still showed patience and spared some of them in order to do what? To bring salvation to the gentiles ("to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory"). That's us. And how does one become chosen? Yes, we are offered salvation strictly because of God's mercy. We have not done anything to deserve his mercy.
“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”
Again, Paul borrows from the Old Testament to show that this prediction has now been fulfilled in the gentiles receiving the gospel.
30" What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. "

How does one become one of God's chosen? By faith. It's not complicated. It's not fatalism, it's not fate, it's responding to Gods offer of mercy and becoming his child.

You can continue to add to the Word or you can accept what it clearly says.

Man, you are seriously confusing matters, renniks. You wrote "We have not done anything to deserve his mercy" which is a blatant contradiction to your claim of your free will choice toward your god. You god does not match the One True God who says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16). Here's God's definition of faith/belief "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) thus God imparts faith not man imparting faith.

In Jeremiah 18, God refers to Isreal as clay; furthermore, God stipulated actions and results for those actions, but the stipulations do not convey ability (post in this thread) as you so desperately ignore proper linguistics to impose "free will" and choice toward God where none is mentioned. It's not people's choice for there is no indication of such.

Respecting Isaiah 65:11-14 there is only mention of "chose what displeases Me" (Isaiah 65:12), and that is MAN NOT CHOOSING GOD because the default nature of man is outside of saving grace for the he cannot please God (Romans 8:8) as well as he cannot understand spiritual things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14) unless God opens his eyes post in this thread; nonetheless, Isaiah refers to individual salvation as seen in "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. There is no one who calls on Your name, Who arouses himself to take hold of You; For You have hidden Your face from us And have delivered us into the power of our iniquities. But now, O YHWH, You are our Father, We are the clay, and You our potter; And all of us are the work of Your hand" (Isaiah 64:6-8).

Now, Paul brings in the individual salvation aspect with "He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?' On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this,' will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory" (Romans 9:18-23).

You desperately try to erase the absolute meaning of Paul that it's not that man that wills but the God who has mercy (Romans 9:16).

In essence, you persist with "Why did you make me like this" just as Paul wrote.

As a result, Paul agrees that you are in rebellion in your claimed free will choice toward God - you against the Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Kermos · Jan 6, 2020

The following is crucial, @renniks,

God knows the names of all the saints from all time because the names are recorded in "the book of life" "of the Lamb who has been slain" "written" "from the foundation of the world"; therefore, God chose us saints, so there is no guesswork by God, no surprise to God because someone unbeknownst to God "accepted" Jesus, no free will for man to choose toward God at any level unto salvation.

The Apostle John recorded that people "will wonder when they see the beast", and those same people being "whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 17:8).

The Apostle John also recorded "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, [everyone] whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain" (Revelation 13:8, see this post in this thread for a proper grammatical examination of this verse).

Even more, the Apostle John recorded "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27).

That is profound, renniks, because John wrote that "only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life", and "the book of life" "written" - written is past tense so done and complete - "from the foundation of the world".

It is NO ACCIDENT that Lord Jesus says "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world'" (Matthew 25:34).

Behold, Lord Jesus KNOWS the names of all saints beforehand!

Let us return to where you deny the Word of God. The Word of God's name is Jesus. The Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). You say this does not apply to you, and you can free will choose toward God. You claim you can do that with the Word of God clearly states that you cannot do; therefore, you are not at peace with God.

May God grant you wisdom.

The ability of God - Does God always get His will done?

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

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God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

Well-Known Member

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

Well-Known Member

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

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