sovereigngrace

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You believe the millennial kingdom is now and that we reign spiritually.
You said you believe we reign in the New Heaven and New Earth physically and spiritually with God.
So the question is who are we reigning over in the New Heaven and New Earth physically and spiritually and in what way? Who are the subjects? How do we rule as Kong’s, priests and rulers physically and spiritually? Jerry Kelso

We don't need to reign over anyone. Do you not believe we reign in the NHNE?
 
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jerry kelso

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We don't need to reign over anyone. Do you not believe we reign in the NHNE?

sovereigngrace,

1. What you don’t understand is that the KoH reign on earth is eternal 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-7; etc. what part of forever don’t you understand?

2. It will be a literal earthly kingdom just like the earthly kingdoms that oppressed Israel.
Dake says that the KoH will be the 9th kingdom in Daniel and Revelation. Egypt; Assyria; Babylon; Medo-Persia; Greece; Rome; Revised Rome; Revived Greece; and the KoH; Isaiah 9:6-7; Daniel 2:44,45; 7:13;,14; 17:27; Zechariah 14; Revelation 17:8-18.
The KoH reign is literal like those in the past which concerns Israel not the church. It is forever whether you believe in a millennial kingdom today or after the
tribulation and includes the Kingdom in the KoG all in all.

3. The form of government will not be monarchic. democratic, or autocratic, but a theocratic form of government ie; God reigning through;
Jesus Christ , his only begotten son, 2 Samuel 7; Psalms 2, 89:35-37; Isaiah 2:2-4; 4:2-3; 9:6-7; 11:2-15; 16:5; 24:23; 32:1-4; 40:9-10; 42:1-4; 52:7; Jeremiah23:5-8; Ezekiel 43:7; Daniel 2:44-45; 7:13-14; Micah: 4; 5:1-7; Zechariah 6:12-13; 14:1-21; Luke 1:32-35; Revelation 11:15; 20:1-10.
David the King of Israel; Jeremiah 30:9; Ezekiel 34:24; 37:24-28; Hosea 3:4-5.
The apostles and all saints from Adam to the Millennium; or those who have part in the first resurrection Psalm 149:5-9; Daniel 7:18-27; Matthew 19:28; 1 Corinthians 4:8;6:2; Ephesians 2:7; 2 Timothy 2:12; Hebrew 11; Romans 8:17; 2 Thessalonians 1:4-7; Revelation 1:6; 2:26-27; 5:9-10; 11:15; 12:5; 20:4-6; 22:5.

4. Jerusalem will be the;
a) seat of the government
b) world capital
c) center of worship forever
1 Chronicles 23:25; 2 Chronicles 33:4-7; Psalm 48:8; Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:11-12:6; Jeremiah 17:25; Ezekiel 34:1-31; 43:7; Joel 3:17; 20; Micah 4:7; Zechariah 8:3-23; 14:1-21; Acts 15:1-18.
Dake also says; Various classes will be excluded from the kingdom; Matthew 5:20; 13:49-50; 24:45-51; 25:25-28; 31-46; Revelation 14:9-12.
All nations now in existence on the earth and who will be living when Christ comes will continue as such as in the kingdom forever and ever. All people, all nations, and languages should serve him, his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away and his kingdom that shall not be destroyed; Daniel 7:13-14, 18, 22-27; Isaiah 9:6-7; Zechariah 14:1-21; Luke 1:32-35; Revelation 11:15.
After the battle of Armageddon and the judgement of the nations at the return of Christ, there will be many of all nations left who will go up from year to year to worship the Lord of hosts and keep the Feast of Tabernacles. It is these people who will populate the earth during the millennium and forever; Isaiah 2:1-2; Zechariah 14:1-21; Matthew 25:31:46; Revelation 11:15;20:1-10. Finis J. Dake Revelation Expounded.
You are wrong about no literal millennial kingdom before the NHNE.
You are also wrong that there won’t be a reign in the theocratic government with earthly people in the literal millennial kingdom forever even when the KoG is consummated.
The scriptures prove you are wrong like always. Believe God’s word!!!!!!!! Not your out of context context!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jerry Kelso
 
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sovereigngrace

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sovereigngrace,

1. What you don’t understand is that the KoH reign on earth is eternal 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-7; etc. what part of forever don’t you understand?

Your kingdom is not eternal, it lasts for a thousand years and then falls apart when Satan is released. It is invaded by billions of wicked (as the sand of the sea) who switch their allegiance from Christ to Satan. Amils anticipate Christ introducing an eternal kingdom full of only the elect of all nations throughout time (OT and NT) when He arrives! There will be no apartheid in this kingdom, and there will be no end.

2. It will be a literal earthly kingdom just like the earthly kingdoms that oppressed Israel.

Dake says that the KoH will be the 9th kingdom in Daniel and Revelation. Egypt; Assyria; Babylon; Medo-Persia; Greece; Rome; Revised Rome; Revived Greece; and the KoH; Isaiah 9:6-7; Daniel 2:44,45; 7:13;,14; 17:27; Zechariah 14; Revelation 17:8-18.

You are trying to make the shadow and type the substance and reality. You want to resurrect a failed temporal old covenant system that is based on racial favor, and which was replaced by a better perfect eternal covenant. That is never going to happen.

Scripture describes the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11) and “that which is abolished” (2 Corinthians 3:13). It makes clear: “the old testament … vail is done away in Christ" (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms: “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” Hebrews 10:2 confirms they “ceased to be offered.”
  • You want us to move from the realization back to the shadow.
  • You want us to move from the perfect back to the imperfect.
  • You want us to move from the all-sufficient back to the inadequate.
  • You want us to move from the spiritual back to the physical.
  • You want us to move from the internal back to the external.
  • You want us to move from the supernatural back to the natural.
  • You want us to move from the eternal back to the temporary.
  • You want us to move from the heavenly back to the earthly.
  • You want us to move from the international back to the national.
  • You want us to move from the unconditional back to the conditional.
The KoH reign is literal like those in the past which concerns Israel not the church. It is forever whether you believe in a millennial kingdom today or after the
tribulation and includes the Kingdom in the KoG all in all.

The kingdom of God exists wherever the king – the Lord Jesus Christ – exercises His intimate spiritual jurisdiction. The kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises His divine kingship, dominion and intimate rule. It includes heaven (and all those who are in heaven) – the place where with the kingdom is centered and administrated. That is why Matthew frequently described the kingdom of God as the kingdom of heaven. Notwithstanding, it also includes the full extent of the true Church, the spiritual temple of God, the body of Christ on earth. It is therefore the whole realm in which the rule of man becomes the rule of God; it is the area where the law of God and of righteousness is pre-eminent.

Whilst the kingdom is coming in all its final eternal glory at the Coming of the Lord, the kingdom is here now spiritually.

The kingdom is sometimes described as “the kingdom of heaven” and at other times “the kingdom of God.” An elementary comparison between the two in the New Testament will show that “the kingdom of heaven” and “the kingdom of God” are just similar expressions to describe the one same Kingdom.

The term “the kingdom of God” refers to the One from whom it originates, whereas, the term “the kingdom of heaven” describes the place where it is centered. The word kingdom simply means ‘king [with a] domain’. It refers to the territory and the people over whom a King rules and exercises sovereign authority. The term also includes the laws that administer that kingdom.

The word employed in the New Testament for ‘kingdom’ is the Greek word ‘basileia’ denoting ‘sovereignty, royal power, kingship and dominion’. A kingdom must therefore have (1) a king – or a head, (2) a domain to rule over – namely subjects and territory, (3) and rules and laws which govern it.

The King in God’s kingdom is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ. And since we got saved we are His subjects. The laws that govern Christ’s spiritual kingdom are found in this precious Book. Jesus declared in Matthew 6:33, seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”

Israel looked for a kingdom, and Christ brought it. The literalist Jews missed it as they had no concept of the spiritual nature of it. Daniel 2:34-35 says, "a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."

Whilst we are looking at a literal prophecy and a literal truth we are looking at a literal metaphor. Stones don’t naturally grow into mountains. There is no doubt that we are looking at a spiritual prediction.

The kingdom began as a small stone with the early church in a small nation and has now become (as predicted) a large mountain today throughout the world covering all nations.

It is explicitly stated that the kingdom of God would be set up in the days of the Roman Empire (Daniel 2:44).

The prophet Daniel predicted this eternal kingdom, which would emanate from “the God of heaven” in Daniel 2:44-45, saying, “And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.”

Christ did not come to set up a kingdom that was limited to time, it would rather be an eternal kingdom that would last forever.

Other such references are found throughout Scripture in Genesis 24:3, Ezra 5:11-12, 6:9-10, 7:12, 21, 23, Nehemiah, 1:4, 2:4, 20, Psalm 136:26, Daniel 2:18-19, 37, Jonah 1:9, Revelation 11:13, 16:11.

Those who disconnect the repeated synonymous terms “the kingdom of heaven” and “the kingdom of God” do gravely undermine the simple truth that there is but one eternal righteous kingdom that belongs to “the God of heaven.” It is God ordained and God controlled; and whilst it is currently headquartered in heavenly domain it finds its earthly demonstration within the persecuted Church of Jesus Christ. Significantly, in Revelation, we see the righteous giving glory to the God of heaven (11:13) and the wicked blaspheming the God of heaven(16:10-11).

Dispensationalists obsession with the shadow, type and figure drives them to fight for its continuation. They are so enamored by the old covenant that they not only want to hold onto the ceremonial system but also introduce it after the second coming to the new earth. They are determined to hold onto the old abolished system for all their might.
 
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sovereigngrace

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3. The form of government will not be monarchic. democratic, or autocratic, but a theocratic form of government ie; God reigning through;
Jesus Christ , his only begotten son, 2 Samuel 7; Psalms 2, 89:35-37; Isaiah 2:2-4; 4:2-3; 9:6-7; 11:2-15; 16:5; 24:23; 32:1-4; 40:9-10; 42:1-4; 52:7; Jeremiah23:5-8; Ezekiel 43:7; Daniel 2:44-45; 7:13-14; Micah: 4; 5:1-7; Zechariah 6:12-13; 14:1-21; Luke 1:32-35; Revelation 11:15; 20:1-10.
David the King of Israel; Jeremiah 30:9; Ezekiel 34:24; 37:24-28; Hosea 3:4-5.
The apostles and all saints from Adam to the Millennium; or those who have part in the first resurrection Psalm 149:5-9; Daniel 7:18-27; Matthew 19:28; 1 Corinthians 4:8;6:2; Ephesians 2:7; 2 Timothy 2:12; Hebrew 11; Romans 8:17; 2 Thessalonians 1:4-7; Revelation 1:6; 2:26-27; 5:9-10; 11:15; 12:5; 20:4-6; 22:5.

Not so!

Hebrews 11:17 tells us that we have a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”

Galatians 3:16-18 declares: “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.”

This passage says it all! The Premils and their fixation with the land and with the old covenant is rebuked time after time in the New Testament. It shows Christ as the inheritance. It shows Christ as the promise. It shows Him as the Promised Land.

Hebrews 3:14-15 says speaking of the salvation that believers have entered into today “in Christ,” “For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Hebrews 3:16-19 immediately continues, comparing the physical, temporal earthly land in the Old Testament, “For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? Was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”

The rest desired by God’s people in the Old Testament was always associated with occupying the land of Israel. This reading also tells us that the two blockages to that rest for the children of Israel were sin and unbelief.

I am convinced that every true child of God has left Egypt (being a picture of the world), however, many still haven’t entered into the fullness and joy of the Promised Land that is here described as have departed been delivered from

Hebrews 4:1-3 says, “Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest.”

And continues in Hebrews 4:9-11 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.”

· The place of rest is “a promise” for all God’s people (Hebrews 4:1). However, like every promise that God gives us, it must be received and used.
· That land can only be entered by faith or “with faith” (Hebrews 4:2).
· When a man enters into that place of rest he ceases “from his own works” (Hebrews 4:10). He abandons every confidence in himself.

Canaan was always viewed as the Promised Land – the earthly place of rest of the people of God in the Old Testament; however, it was not viewed as the eternal rest.

Hebrews 11:8-10 describes how our great father of the faith, the Patriarch, Abraham looked for that great heavenly city, saying, By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.”

It would seem right to regard God's future inheritance for Israel as relating to the heavenly abode and the prepared city the New Jerusalem. The Patriarch’s earthly abode in Canaan is depicted here as a temporary sojourn and “a strange country.” This was not Abraham’s eternal abode or was it his true home. Like us, he looked for the New Jerusalem that would last forever. Man’s ultimate hope (whether Old Testament or New Testament) is when Jerusalem from above comes down to the earth to dwell forever.

Hebrews 11:13-16 says, specifically speaking of the great Old Testament champions of faith, “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”

Here, in easily comprehensible language, we see the focus and overriding desire of these Old Testament heroes of the faith (nearly all of whom had accessed the old Jerusalem in their lifetime) revealed. They plainly desired a “prepared” heavenly city.

The Old Testament saints, like those in the New Testament, looked forth to a “prepared” eternal heavenly city, not a physical temporal earthly one. Their eyes were therefore not below but above. Scripture plainly tells us that that “place” is called the New Jerusalem – the eternal home of the beloved. The Premillennialist that looks for old Jerusalem at the Second Coming is evidently focused upon the wrong city.

Like Abraham and the Old Testament saints of old, our eyes should be fixed upon another country, not an earthly, and a city that is not built with hands or can be touched or visited in this fleeting life.

Whilst earthly Jerusalem may be the hope today of the Christ-rejecting Jew, the heavenly New Jerusalem was the desire of the believing Old Testament saints.

That “place,” which Christ is preparing us, and for which His people are patiently waiting, is identified as an actual city in Hebrews 13:14. Notwithstanding, it is not a physical temporal earthly city sitting in the centre of natural Israel, but rather a heavenly eternal city. The passage says, “for here (that is on this earth) have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.” That city is the New Jerusalem, which Christ is presently preparing. Earthly Jerusalem is clearly with us now, whereas the New Jerusalem in all its glory is still to come!!!

During our Lord’s earthly ministry He made a very significant statement about the heavenly abode, which many modern-day eschatology students tend to overlook. Jesus said, in John 14:1-3, “Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

Something we should establish here due to the array of false teaching floating around on the subject: whilst this eternal abode Christ is currently preparing for His people is now in heaven there is no proof in this text that this city will remain in heaven after His Coming. Jesus simply promises: I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

Where Christ is at His appearing is where the heavenly city with its many mansions will be. This closely connects Christ to the holy city. One could take from this statement that the New Jerusalem will appear with Christ. It would be wise to see whether there is other Scripture to support or negate such a hypothesis.

Christ here directly addresses the undoubted concern of His disciples just prior to His heavenly removal. He clearly intended to convey a real sense of hope and comfort to His troubled disciples, in this reading, who were evidently concerned at the thought of the His impending departure. In doing so, He advanced some precious Divine truths, which are deserving of our careful consideration and note, none more so than the fact that He was assuredly returning for His saints. He plainly and succinctly declares, “if I go…I will come again.” This is the great assurance for every believer, that, yet, for a short season he is faced with earthly trials, tribulations and separation, it is but nothing in comparison to that place and condition which awaits God’s heavenly people.

The next thing of note we see is that Christ was, shortly after this incident, going to His “Father’s house” – heaven – to “prepare a place” for His people. That “place,” which was undoubtedly heavenly, and its final manifestation, is clearly identified here with the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The word rendered “prepare” here, in the King James Version, is the Greek word hetoimasoo which simply means ‘to make ready’. Therefore, Christ is presently preparing, or making ready, a heavenly abode for the redeemed of God, which they will inhabit at His glorious final all-consummating Second Coming.

That “prepared” city is repeatedly described in Scripture as the New Jerusalem – the heavenly city. In a parallel passage in Revelation 3:11-12, Christ promises His people, while also speaking of His glorious all-consummating Second Advent, “Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

This Second Coming passage confirms our notion. The heavenly city comes down from heaven with Christ when He returns.

This reading informs us that this “place,” which Christ spoke of has a name; being described as the New Jerusalem and that it “cometh down out of heaven” at His appearing. This truth should help those who struggle with the meaning and timing of Revelation 20, because Revelation 21:1-2 (which all commentators agree) appears immediately after the happenings of Revelation 20. Therefore, it places its appearing, which we have already established coincides with the Second Coming of the Lord, at the end of the millennium thus revealing a postmillennial appearing of Christ. Christ connects the appearance of the New Jerusalem at His Coming, declaring, “Behold, I come quickly.” It is at this all-consummating event that the New Jerusalem comes “down out of heaven from my God.”

Note that the exact detail described as occurring at the Second Coming – namely:

The “new Jerusalem” appears.
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven.”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven … from God.”

Further evidence that the prepared New Jerusalem is coming down to the new earth is found in Revelation 21:1-4. It declares, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

The New Jerusalem does not stay in heaven. At the end of the millennium it descends to the new earth. We should not overlook: the detail described elsewhere in Scripture as occurring at the Second Coming of the Lord carefully matches that which takes place at the end of the millennium (definitely not the beginning). It is the “holy city, new Jerusalem” that is figuratively “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband” and which corresponds with the Lord’s teaching in John 14. This city is the only “prepared place” alluded to in the whole of the New Testament. This city, which appears with Christ at His Coming, is undoubtedly a heavenly “place” and is the single focus of every true saint of God – the place of eternal peace and rest from sin, the effects of sin (including death), and all sinners forever.

Knitting all these passages together reinforces the Amillennial and Postmillennial positions that Revelation 20 is speaking about a current period of time. It is clear Premillennialism has a major problem here. First, John 14:1-3 ties Christ to the heavenly city and presents that city, which is being prepared, as the eternal hope of the saints. If that city does not appear until after the millennium as a Premillennial reading of Revelation 20 would require then the saints will not experience that prepared city for over 1,000 years.

Premillennialism divorces Christ from the eternal city He is preparing now. It also evacuates the New Jerusalem at the Second Coming and forbids the saints entry to it for 1,000 years. Why would Christ emphasise the eternal glory and comfort of this city He is preparing for His people if they were not going to immediately enjoy it when they die or when He appears? The whole promise of John 14:1-3 is negated by this theological school of thought. Premillennialism must also ignore Revelation 3:11-12, which, whilst speaking of the Coming of Christ, describes the accompanying descent of the heavenly abode.

No wonder 1 Corinthians 2:9 says, “as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.”

I guess if I was to sum up the great difficulty I have with Premillennialism on this matter, it is its constant focus upon the natural city Jerusalem, and their notion that God's favour is upon this Christ-rejecting people, rather than focusing like Abraham upon that city that embraces the true chosen of God – the New Jerusalem. The New Testament constantly directs our eyes toward the heavenly Jerusalem, whereas Premils are constantly speaking of, and speculating about, the old Jerusalem, which we know is likened today unto Sodom and Egypt (Revelation 11) and is now "in bondage with her children" (Galatians 4:22-26).

It is only after the judgment that we learn: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world (Matthew 25:34).

The prepared kingdom and the prepared city are indivisible. Inheriting one means inheriting the other. This is seen to occur when Christ appears.

This temple within the city – the New Jerusalem – is Christ. Revelation 21:22 says, “And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.” The New Jerusalem represents the wider kingdom wherein the temple centrally resides.
 
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jerry kelso

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Your kingdom is not eternal, it lasts for a thousand years and then falls apart when Satan is released. It is invaded by billions of wicked (as the sand of the sea) who switch their allegiance from Christ to Satan. Amils anticipate Christ introducing an eternal kingdom full of only the elect of all nation (OT and NT) when He arrives! There will be no apartheid in this kingdom, and there will be no end.



You are trying to make the shadow and type the substance and reality. You want to resurrect a failed temporal old covenant system that is based on racial favor, and which was replaced by a better perfect eternal covenant. That is never going to happen.

Scripture describes the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11) and “that which is abolished” (2 Corinthians 3:13). It makes clear: “the old testament … vail is done away in Christ" (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms: “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” Hebrews 10:2 confirms they “ceased to be offered.”
  • You want us to move from the realization back to the shadow.
  • You want us to move from the perfect back to the imperfect.
  • You want us to move from the all-sufficient back to the inadequate.
  • You want us to move from the spiritual back to the physical.
  • You want us to move from the internal back to the external.
  • You want us to move from the supernatural back to the natural.
  • You want us to move from the eternal back to the temporary.
  • You want us to move from the heavenly back to the earthly.
  • You want us to move from the international back to the national.
  • You want us to move from the unconditional back to the conditional.


The kingdom of God exists wherever the king – the Lord Jesus Christ – exercises His intimate spiritual jurisdiction. The kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises His divine kingship, dominion and intimate rule. It includes heaven (and all those who are in heaven) – the place where with the kingdom is centered and administrated. That is why Matthew frequently described the kingdom of God as the kingdom of heaven. Notwithstanding, it also includes the full extent of the true Church, the spiritual temple of God, the body of Christ on earth. It is therefore the whole realm in which the rule of man becomes the rule of God; it is the area where the law of God and of righteousness is pre-eminent.

Whilst the kingdom is coming in all its final eternal glory at the Coming of the Lord, the kingdom is here now spiritually.

The kingdom is sometimes described as “the kingdom of heaven” and at other times “the kingdom of God.” An elementary comparison between the two in the New Testament will show that “the kingdom of heaven” and “the kingdom of God” are just similar expressions to describe the one same Kingdom.

The term “the kingdom of God” refers to the One from whom it originates, whereas, the term “the kingdom of heaven” describes the place where it is centered. The word kingdom simply means ‘king [with a] domain’. It refers to the territory and the people over whom a King rules and exercises sovereign authority. The term also includes the laws that administer that kingdom.

The word employed in the New Testament for ‘kingdom’ is the Greek word ‘basileia’ denoting ‘sovereignty, royal power, kingship and dominion’. A kingdom must therefore have (1) a king – or a head, (2) a domain to rule over – namely subjects and territory, (3) and rules and laws which govern it.

The King in God’s kingdom is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ. And since we got saved we are His subjects. The laws that govern Christ’s spiritual kingdom are found in this precious Book. Jesus declared in Matthew 6:33, seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”

Israel looked for a kingdom, and Christ brought it. The literalist Jews missed it as they had no concept of the spiritual nature of it. Daniel 2:34-35 says, "a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."

Whilst we are looking at a literal prophecy and a literal truth we are looking at a literal metaphor. Stones don’t naturally grow into mountains. There is no doubt that we are looking at a spiritual prediction.

The kingdom began as a small stone with the early church in a small nation and has now become (as predicted) a large mountain today throughout the world covering all nations.

It is explicitly stated that the kingdom of God would be set up in the days of the Roman Empire (Daniel 2:44).

The prophet Daniel predicted this eternal kingdom, which would emanate from “the God of heaven” in Daniel 2:44-45, saying, “And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.”

Christ did not come to set up a kingdom that was limited to time, it would rather be an eternal kingdom that would last forever.

Other such references are found throughout Scripture in Genesis 24:3, Ezra 5:11-12, 6:9-10, 7:12, 21, 23, Nehemiah, 1:4, 2:4, 20, Psalm 136:26, Daniel 2:18-19, 37, Jonah 1:9, Revelation 11:13, 16:11.

Those who disconnect the repeated synonymous terms “the kingdom of heaven” and “the kingdom of God” do gravely undermine the simple truth that there is but one eternal righteous kingdom that belongs to “the God of heaven.” It is God ordained and God controlled; and whilst it is currently headquartered in heavenly domain it finds its earthly demonstration within the persecuted Church of Jesus Christ. Significantly, in Revelation, we see the righteous giving glory to the God of heaven (11:13) and the wicked blaspheming the God of heaven(16:10-11).

Dispensationalists obsession with the shadow, type and figure drives them to fight for its continuation. They are so enamored by the old covenant that they not only want to hold onto the ceremonial system but also introduce it after the second coming to the new earth. They are determined to hold onto the old abolished system for all their might.


sovereigngrace,

1. Once again you misunderstand the 1000 years is to put down all sin and rebellion including death etc.
The son hands over the KoH physical earthly sphere which is the same as the kingdom under the whole Heaven Daniel 7:27. Why? So God will be all in all which is the universal kingdom being in complete harmony forever.

2. The New Heaven and New Earth is the last renovation and does not mean annihilation. Why? Because the KoH is eternal 2 Samuel 7:16. What part of forever don’t you understand?

3. Well, a mills and pre-tribs both believe in the final perfect state Revelation 21-22.

4. Your 1000 year you say is the millennial kingdom now and that we reign now spiritually.
This means that the binding of Satan is because the gospel is being spread around the world and so he is kept from deceiving the nations.
What world are you in? The nations are still as wicked as ever.
Matthew 24:14 says the gospel of the Kingdom has to be preached to all the world.
Today, the whole world has basically been preached to about salvation.
According to your view there’s a contradiction here.
Answer Matthew 24:14 and clear up your contradiction or do you even know what the Gospel of the kingdom is? Jerry Kelso
 
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sovereigngrace,

1. Once again you misunderstand the 1000 years is to put down all sin and rebellion including death etc.
The son hands over the KoH physical earthly sphere which is the same as the kingdom under the whole Heaven Daniel 7:27. Why? So God will be all in all which is the universal kingdom being in complete harmony forever.

Your millennium is a debacle. You will not even address that. It is full of everything that this age suffers sin, death, corruption, sickness, Satan, war. Quite frankly: the Premil peace is a sham. It is not in Revelation 20. It is foisted upon it by Premils who are devoid of any other passage that mentions these thousand years. In reality billions of mortal phony religious Gentiles (as the sand of the sea) supposedly submit to Christ and attend Jerusalem to worship in the temple in your alleged future millennium. After a thousand yrs at the drop of a hat they change their worship to Satan. What a debacle! What a bust!

You have the greatest battle in history at the end of the pre-millennial millennium, when the wicked under the command of Satan surround Christ and the glorified saints as a sand of the sea. Your millennium of bliss is a total bust!

How can these billions of mortal wicked not sin or die? Also, you have the lion and lamb enjoying millennial bliss until the slaughter truck pulls up to drag the lambs, goats and bullocks to the temple in Jerusalem for sacrifice in the presence of Jesus. Amazingly, for the first time in history they have no fear of their traditional predators, just supposedly righteous millennial God-ordained priests coming for them with sharp knives.

Sin and death are everywhere in your supposed future age of Aquarius.

Does this not make Christ’s millennial reign an unmitigated disaster? After all, after reigning in glory and majesty with a rod of iron along with the saints in their glorified bodies, Christ is faced with a mass defection of billions of millennial inhabitants who side with Satan when he first appears on the millennial earth. This has to be the greatest falling away in history. It is the biggest religious deception in history. It is the most pronounced religious circus in history. This has to be the biggest evangelistic reversal in history.

Surely this makes Christ out to be deceived – believing He had mass allegiance, when in fact He reigned over a world flooded with closet Satanists? His outreach to the nations is a complete and utter bust.

What second coming passage (other than your view of Rev 20 - which Amillennialists reject) supports your view of deception being lifted off the Gentiles for 1,000 literal years followed by the notable widespread millennial evangelistic debacle when Satan at the drop of the hat claims the millennial inhabitants for himself (as the sand of the sea)?

The Bible tells us that God “shall send Jesus Christ … whom the heaven must receive (or dechomai, or detain) until the times of restitution (or reconstitution or restoration) of all things” (Acts 3:20). Surely this forbids Pretrib/Premil as that doctrine sees more of the same in its alleged future millennium, including an increase of sin, death and rebellion culminating in an ugly (yet foolish) war against the camp of the saints at the end?

It is not like the new earth that Amils anticipate which is perfect, pristine and Edenic.

2. The New Heaven and New Earth is the last renovation and does not mean annihilation. Why? Because the KoH is eternal 2 Samuel 7:16. What part of forever don’t you understand?

Premil teaches that there will be righteous converts still in their fallen mortal bodies during their millennium who are distinguished from the immortals. Surely Premils are going to have to create another catching away (“rapture”) for the "mortal believers" that get saved during their millennium in order to allow them to enter the glorified state and eternal bliss? After all, where does all the mortal saints in the millennium go when the earth flees away (Revelation 20:11) or passes away (Revelation 21:1-5)? Surely, they are not going to pass away when the earth passes away?

Can Premils please tell us what happens to the supposed glorified saints that inhabit this supposed future Premil millennium when the old earth flees away and the new earth arrives at the end of Satan's little season?

Do they experience another catching away (“rapture”) or do they just float off the old earth for a few moments while wrath is poured out?


3. Well, a mills and pre-tribs both believe in the final perfect state Revelation 21-22.

4. Your 1000 year you say is the millennial kingdom now and that we reign now spiritually.

This means that the binding of Satan is because the gospel is being spread around the world and so he is kept from deceiving the nations.
What world are you in? The nations are still as wicked as ever.
Matthew 24:14 says the gospel of the Kingdom has to be preached to all the world.
Today, the whole world has basically been preached to about salvation.
According to your view there’s a contradiction here.
Answer Matthew 24:14 and clear up your contradiction or do you even know what the Gospel of the kingdom is? Jerry Kelso

Not so! Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Satan cannot stop the enlightenment of the Gentiles as before. The restraint simply relates to the Gospel advance to the Gentiles. They were once enveloped in darkness before the first resurrection, now a bright light has been shining for 2000 years saving countless millions throughout the nations. And there is absolutely nothing Satan can do prevent the invasion of his territory. He cannot deceive "the nations" (Gentiles) because we now have the truth as a result of the church expansion into the nations.

We should note in Rev 20:3, the enlightening of the Gentiles (or) ethnos is carefully connected to the first resurrection of Christ. It is only through this powerful event that the deception that smothered the Gentiles was lifted. Moreover, the binding of Satan is expressly connected to the enlightenment of the Gentiles (or) ethnos.

The Church currently exists in its heavenly authority procured for them by Christ who has already defeated every enemy. The introduction of the kingdom of God through Christ’s earthly ministry saw the beginning of Christ’s assault upon the global control of Satan. It is through the finished work of Calvary that the Church now walks in victory. The responsibility of the Church is to simply enter into the reality of that great eternal work by faith. We reside on a far higher spiritual plane than this sin-cursed earth, namely in the throne-room of God. Abiding there ensures we walk by His will, His commands and His blueprint rather than our own carnal desires.
 
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jerry kelso

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Your millennium is a debacle. You will not even address that. It is full of everything that this age suffers sin, death, corruption, sickness, Satan, war. Quite frankly: the Premil peace is a sham. It is not in Revelation 20. It is foisted upon it by Premils who are devoid of any other passage that mentions these thousand years. In reality billions of mortal phony religious Gentiles (as the sand of the sea) supposedly submit to Christ and attend Jerusalem to worship in the temple in your alleged future millennium. After a thousand yrs at the drop of a hat they change their worship to Satan. What a debacle! What a bust!

You have the greatest battle in history at the end of the pre-millennial millennium, when the wicked under the command of Satan surround Christ and the glorified saints as a sand of the sea. Your millennium of bliss is a total bust!

How can these billions of mortal wicked not sin or die? Also, you have the lion and lamb enjoying millennial bliss until the slaughter truck pulls up to drag the lambs, goats and bullocks to the temple in Jerusalem for sacrifice in the presence of Jesus. Amazingly, for the first time in history they have no fear of their traditional predators, just supposedly righteous millennial God-ordained priests coming for them with sharp knives.

Sin and death are everywhere in your supposed future age of Aquarius.

Does this not make Christ’s millennial reign an unmitigated disaster? After all, after reigning in glory and majesty with a rod of iron along with the saints in their glorified bodies, Christ is faced with a mass defection of billions of millennial inhabitants who side with Satan when he first appears on the millennial earth. This has to be the greatest falling away in history. It is the biggest religious deception in history. It is the most pronounced religious circus in history. This has to be the biggest evangelistic reversal in history.

Surely this makes Christ out to be deceived – believing He had mass allegiance, when in fact He reigned over a world flooded with closet Satanists? His outreach to the nations is a complete and utter bust.

What second coming passage (other than your view of Rev 20 - which Amillennialists reject) supports your view of deception being lifted off the Gentiles for 1,000 literal years followed by the notable widespread millennial evangelistic debacle when Satan at the drop of the hat claims the millennial inhabitants for himself (as the sand of the sea)?

The Bible tells us that God “shall send Jesus Christ … whom the heaven must receive (or dechomai, or detain) until the times of restitution (or reconstitution or restoration) of all things” (Acts 3:20). Surely this forbids Pretrib/Premil as that doctrine sees more of the same in its alleged future millennium, including an increase of sin, death and rebellion culminating in an ugly (yet foolish) war against the camp of the saints at the end?

It is not like the new earth that Amils anticipate which is perfect, pristine and Edenic.



Premil teaches that there will be righteous converts still in their fallen mortal bodies during their millennium who are distinguished from the immortals. Surely Premils are going to have to create another catching away (“rapture”) for the "mortal believers" that get saved during their millennium in order to allow them to enter the glorified state and eternal bliss? After all, where does all the mortal saints in the millennium go when the earth flees away (Revelation 20:11) or passes away (Revelation 21:1-5)? Surely, they are not going to pass away when the earth passes away?

Can Premils please tell us what happens to the supposed glorified saints that inhabit this supposed future Premil millennium when the old earth flees away and the new earth arrives at the end of Satan's little season?

Do they experience another catching away (“rapture”) or do they just float off the old earth for a few moments while wrath is poured out?






Not so! Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Satan cannot stop the enlightenment of the Gentiles as before. The restraint simply relates to the Gospel advance to the Gentiles. They were once enveloped in darkness before the first resurrection, now a bright light has been shining for 2000 years saving countless millions throughout the nations. And there is absolutely nothing Satan can do prevent the invasion of his territory. He cannot deceive "the nations" (Gentiles) because we now have the truth as a result of the church expansion into the nations.

We should note in Rev 20:3, the enlightening of the Gentiles (or) ethnos is carefully connected to the first resurrection of Christ. It is only through this powerful event that the deception that smothered the Gentiles was lifted. Moreover, the binding of Satan is expressly connected to the enlightenment of the Gentiles (or) ethnos.

The Church currently exists in its heavenly authority procured for them by Christ who has already defeated every enemy. The introduction of the kingdom of God through Christ’s earthly ministry saw the beginning of Christ’s assault upon the global control of Satan. It is through the finished work of Calvary that the Church now walks in victory. The responsibility of the Church is to simply enter into the reality of that great eternal work by faith. We reside on a far higher spiritual plane than this sin-cursed earth, namely in the throne-room of God. Abiding there ensures we walk by His will, His commands and His blueprint rather than our own carnal desires.

sovereigngrace,

1. I understand your perception of the paradox of sin and rebellion being present in a kingdom of peace.
I have already shown how this is possible but you refuse to believe the scripture.
However, according to your view with Jesus reigning from the throne when he died at Calvary and rose up from the dead and the church being born then we should have gone straight to the KoG of the New Heaven and New Earth of perfection because he was given all authority in Heaven and earth.
There would be no purpose for this millennial kingdom now.

2. The sacrifices will be eternal on earth concerning the Feasts of the Lord which are eternal for a memorial. What part of forever don’t you understand?

3. Because the biblical truth and logic doesn’t make sense to you, it will never fit your false scenario and false interpretation of the scriptures and proper time factor.
God’s ways are higher than our ways.

4. I do agree with the throne room message.
So, let me ask you something, do you cast out demons and heal people and if you do is every demon cast out and is every person healed?
Jerry Kelso
 
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sovereigngrace,

1. I understand your perception of the paradox of sin and rebellion being present in a kingdom of peace.
I have already shown how this is possible but you refuse to believe the scripture.
However, according to your view with Jesus reigning from the throne when he died at Calvary and rose up from the dead and the church being born then we should have gone straight to the KoG of the New Heaven and New Earth of perfection because he was given all authority in Heaven and earth.
There would be no purpose for this millennial kingdom now.

2. The sacrifices will be eternal on earth concerning the Feasts of the Lord which are eternal for a memorial. What part of forever don’t you understand?

3. Because the biblical truth and logic doesn’t make sense to you, it will never fit your false scenario and false interpretation of the scriptures and proper time factor.
God’s ways are higher than our ways.

4. I do agree with the throne room message.
So, let me ask you something, do you cast out demons and heal people and if you do is every demon cast out and is every person healed?
Jerry Kelso

... and when exactly are you going to actually start addressing my points/questions? Your form is to ignore the numerous contradictions in your position and just keep repeating the party line, which is deeply unbiblical. We have already established Pretrib is not in the Bible. Now by your avoidance we are proving that a future millennial kingdom is not there either. I refer you back to my last avoided post.
 
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... and when exactly are you going to actually start addressing my points/questions? Your form is to ignore the numerous contradictions in your position and just keep repeating the party line, which is deeply unbiblical. We have already established Pretrib is not in the Bible. Now by your avoidance we are proving that a future millennial kingdom is not there either. I refer you back to my last avoided post.

sovereigngrace,

1. The problem is you have avoided the truth.

2. The truth is you don’t answer to every point I make and you pick and choose what part of my post you want to use to misrepresent my point. The truth is you dodge many times because you have no answer.

3. The truth is you don’t always give scriptural evidence.

4. The truth is that you started the accusation that everyone avoids your main points and gives no scripture or doesn’t address it when all the time you are guilty of doing all those things.
You just skated my simple questions because you don’t have a good answer answer or because I didn’t answer your whole post. Both are probably true.

4. The truth is you have tried to control the narrative and the conversation of all the posts. These are devious and deceptive devices.

5. The truth is that you give off a perception that no one knows any scripture at all but you which gives a perception of superiority.

6. The truth is that you want the last word.

7. The truth in my opinion you’re not being pithy on purpose. You want to try and muddy up the waters and confuse people.
But I and many others are not fooled by these kind of methods of dishonesty.

8. There are great expositors on both sides of this issue and I would never make out like they don’t know any scripture or when they give plenty of valid scriptures that I would invalidate that they didn’t state any.

9. I asked do you cast out demons and if you do is every demon cast out and do you heal people and if you do are they all healed?
Try again. Jerry Kelso
 
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sovereigngrace,

1. The problem is you have avoided the truth.

2. The truth is you don’t answer to every point I make and you pick and choose what part of my post you want to use to misrepresent my point. The truth is you dodge many times because you have no answer.

3. The truth is you don’t always give scriptural evidence.

4. The truth is that you started the accusation that everyone avoids your main points and gives no scripture or doesn’t address it when all the time you are guilty of doing all those things.
You just skated my simple questions because you don’t have a good answer answer or because I didn’t answer your whole post. Both are probably true.

4. The truth is you have tried to control the narrative and the conversation of all the posts. These are devious and deceptive devices.

5. The truth is that you give off a perception that no one knows any scripture at all but you which gives a perception of superiority.

6. The truth is that you want the last word.

7. The truth in my opinion you’re not being pithy on purpose. You want to try and muddy up the waters and confuse people.
But I and many others are not fooled by these kind of methods of dishonesty.

8. There are great expositors on both sides of this issue and I would never make out like they don’t know any scripture or when they give plenty of valid scriptures that I would invalidate that they didn’t state any.

9. I asked do you cast out demons and if you do is every demon cast out and do you heal people and if you do are they all healed?
Try again. Jerry Kelso

Unless you are willing to address the seeming contradictions in your position it is pointless continuing.
 
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Dishonest posting leads to pointless conversation which results to pointless in continuing.

Exactly, the questions are unanswerable from a Premil position. I honestly do not know how you would truly answer them. If you ever get answers please submit. I will not hold my breath.
 
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jerry kelso

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Exactly, the questions are unanswerable from a Premil position. I honestly do not know how you would truly answer them. If you ever get answers please submit. I will not hold my breath.
Exactly, the questions are unanswerable from a Premil position. I honestly do not know how you would truly answer them. If you ever get answers please submit. I will not hold my breath.

I didn’t ask you to hold your breath I just asked you to be fair in debate and rebuttal.
The questions are unanswerable from a pre-mil position?
I believe my last couple of questions got you stumped?
They are relevant questions but can you really answer them?
Do you cast out demons and if you do does everyone get cast out? Do you heal people and if you do does everyone get healed? And can you tell me why I would ask those questions and how they are relevant to our discussion? You may need to take a couple of big breaths before answering. Jerry Kelso
 
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I didn’t ask you to hold your breath I just asked you to be fair in debate and rebuttal.
The questions are unanswerable from a pre-mil position?
I believe my last couple of questions got you stumped?
They are relevant questions but can you really answer them?
Do you cast out demons and if you do does everyone get cast out? Do you heal people and if you do does everyone get healed? And can you tell me why I would ask those questions and how they are relevant to our discussion? You may need to take a couple of big breaths before answering. Jerry Kelso

LOL. What possibly is there in those unconnected and irrelevant questions would stump anyone? You are being petty again! I don't do any of this, but the Holy Ghost does. Those who want free get free. Healing is totally in God's hands. After He comes there will be no sin, sinners, sickness or rebellion or death. Perfection finally arrives.

Now will you answer my questions?

What second coming passage (other than your view of Rev 20 - which Amillennialists reject) supports your view of deception being lifted off the Gentiles for 1,000 literal years followed by the notable widespread millennial evangelistic debacle when Satan at the drop of the hat claims the millennial inhabitants for himself (as the sand of the sea)?

The Bible tells us that God “shall send Jesus Christ … whom the heaven must receive (or dechomai, or detain) until the times of restitution (or reconstitution or restoration) of all things” (Acts 3:20). Surely this forbids Pretrib/Premil as that doctrine sees more of the same in its alleged future millennium, including an increase of sin, death and rebellion culminating in an ugly (yet foolish) war against the camp of the saints at the end?

Premil teaches that there will be righteous converts still in their fallen mortal bodies during their millennium who are distinguished from the immortals. Surely Premils are going to have to create another catching away (“rapture”) for the "mortal believers" that get saved during their millennium in order to allow them to enter the glorified state and eternal bliss? After all, where does all the mortal saints in the millennium go when the earth flees away (Revelation 20:11) or passes away (Revelation 21:1-5)? Surely, they are not going to pass away when the earth passes away?

Can Premils please tell us what happens to the supposed glorified saints that inhabit this supposed future Premil millennium when the old earth flees away and the new earth arrives at the end of Satan's little season?

Do they experience another catching away (“rapture”) or do they just float off the old earth for a few moments while wrath is poured out?
 
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LOL. What about those unconnected and irrelevant question would stump anyone? You are being petty again! I don't do any of this, but the Holy Ghost does. Those who want free get free. Healing is totally in God's hands. After He comes there will be no sin, sinners, sickness or rebellion or death. Perfection finally arrives.

Now will you answer my questions?

What second coming passage (other than your view of Rev 20 - which Amillennialists reject) supports your view of deception being lifted off the Gentiles for 1,000 literal years followed by the notable widespread millennial evangelistic debacle when Satan at the drop of the hat claims the millennial inhabitants for himself (as the sand of the sea)?

The Bible tells us that God “shall send Jesus Christ … whom the heaven must receive (or dechomai, or detain) until the times of restitution (or reconstitution or restoration) of all things” (Acts 3:20). Surely this forbids Pretrib/Premil as that doctrine sees more of the same in its alleged future millennium, including an increase of sin, death and rebellion culminating in an ugly (yet foolish) war against the camp of the saints at the end?

Premil teaches that there will be righteous converts still in their fallen mortal bodies during their millennium who are distinguished from the immortals. Surely Premils are going to have to create another catching away (“rapture”) for the "mortal believers" that get saved during their millennium in order to allow them to enter the glorified state and eternal bliss? After all, where does all the mortal saints in the millennium go when the earth flees away (Revelation 20:11) or passes away (Revelation 21:1-5)? Surely, they are not going to pass away when the earth passes away?

Can Premils please tell us what happens to the supposed glorified saints that inhabit this supposed future Premil millennium when the old earth flees away and the new earth arrives at the end of Satan's little season?

Do they experience another catching away (“rapture”) or do they just float off the old earth for a few moments while wrath is poured out?

It is a given you don’t do it within your own strength. If you cannot be truthful you can’t cast out a demon cause they know whether or not you are true or not.
Healing is totally in God’s power but he needs a man of faith and compassion and has to have someone that knows how to deal with the devil and how to persevere.
Am I to assume these haven’t happened in your ministry by you.
Answer the questions honestly and I will tell you why they are relevant. Jerry kelso
 
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It is a given you don’t do it within your own strength. If you cannot be truthful you can’t cast out a demon cause they know whether or not you are true or not.
Healing is totally in God’s power but he needs a man of faith and compassion and has to have someone that knows how to deal with the devil and how to persevere.
Am I to assume these haven’t happened in your ministry by you.
Answer the questions honestly and I will tell you why they are relevant. Jerry kelso

What are you talking about? As is your MO, you are always trying to divert the subject off course. Now please address the questions I have presented.

It is posts like this that cause other Christians to laugh at Pentecostals.

Address the issues pertaining to your so-called future millennium, or admit that you can't.
 
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What are you talking about? As is your MO, you are always trying to divert the subject off course. Now please address the questions I have presented.

It is posts like this that cause other Christians to laugh at Pentecostals.

Address the issues pertaining to your so-called future millennium, or admit that you can't.

I take it you must not work in the supernatural.
Do you believe in the 5 or 7 fold ministry or do you know what that is?
 
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I take it you must not work in the supernatural.
Do you believe in the 5 or 7 fold ministry or do you know what that is?

What second coming passage (other than your view of Rev 20 - which Amillennialists reject) supports your view of deception being lifted off the Gentiles for 1,000 literal years followed by the notable widespread millennial evangelistic debacle when Satan at the drop of the hat claims the millennial inhabitants for himself (as the sand of the sea)?

The Bible tells us that God “shall send Jesus Christ … whom the heaven must receive (or dechomai, or detain) until the times of restitution (or reconstitution or restoration) of all things” (Acts 3:20). Surely this forbids Pretrib/Premil as that doctrine sees more of the same in its alleged future millennium, including an increase of sin, death and rebellion culminating in an ugly (yet foolish) war against the camp of the saints at the end?

Premil teaches that there will be righteous converts still in their fallen mortal bodies during their millennium who are distinguished from the immortals. Surely Premils are going to have to create another catching away (“rapture”) for the "mortal believers" that get saved during their millennium in order to allow them to enter the glorified state and eternal bliss? After all, where does all the mortal saints in the millennium go when the earth flees away (Revelation 20:11) or passes away (Revelation 21:1-5)? Surely, they are not going to pass away when the earth passes away?

Can Premils please tell us what happens to the supposed glorified saints that inhabit this supposed future Premil millennium when the old earth flees away and the new earth arrives at the end of Satan's little season?

Do they experience another catching away (“rapture”) or do they just float off the old earth for a few moments while wrath is poured out?
 
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jerry kelso

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What second coming passage (other than your view of Rev 20 - which Amillennialists reject) supports your view of deception being lifted off the Gentiles for 1,000 literal years followed by the notable widespread millennial evangelistic debacle when Satan at the drop of the hat claims the millennial inhabitants for himself (as the sand of the sea)?

The Bible tells us that God “shall send Jesus Christ … whom the heaven must receive (or dechomai, or detain) until the times of restitution (or reconstitution or restoration) of all things” (Acts 3:20). Surely this forbids Pretrib/Premil as that doctrine sees more of the same in its alleged future millennium, including an increase of sin, death and rebellion culminating in an ugly (yet foolish) war against the camp of the saints at the end?

Premil teaches that there will be righteous converts still in their fallen mortal bodies during their millennium who are distinguished from the immortals. Surely Premils are going to have to create another catching away (“rapture”) for the "mortal believers" that get saved during their millennium in order to allow them to enter the glorified state and eternal bliss? After all, where does all the mortal saints in the millennium go when the earth flees away (Revelation 20:11) or passes away (Revelation 21:1-5)? Surely, they are not going to pass away when the earth passes away?

Can Premils please tell us what happens to the supposed glorified saints that inhabit this supposed future Premil millennium when the old earth flees away and the new earth arrives at the end of Satan's little season?

Do they experience another catching away (“rapture”) or do they just float off the old earth for a few moments while wrath is poured out?

You talk big about the throne room message and get on Christians for not believing in it when you don’t practice what you preach in real life. You are a tinkling cymbal.
 
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sovereigngrace

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You talk big about the throne room message but you do

What second coming passage (other than your view of Rev 20 - which Amillennialists reject) supports your view of deception being lifted off the Gentiles for 1,000 literal years followed by the notable widespread millennial evangelistic debacle when Satan at the drop of the hat claims the millennial inhabitants for himself (as the sand of the sea)?

The Bible tells us that God “shall send Jesus Christ … whom the heaven must receive (or dechomai, or detain) until the times of restitution (or reconstitution or restoration) of all things” (Acts 3:20). Surely this forbids Pretrib/Premil as that doctrine sees more of the same in its alleged future millennium, including an increase of sin, death and rebellion culminating in an ugly (yet foolish) war against the camp of the saints at the end?

Premil teaches that there will be righteous converts still in their fallen mortal bodies during their millennium who are distinguished from the immortals. Surely Premils are going to have to create another catching away (“rapture”) for the "mortal believers" that get saved during their millennium in order to allow them to enter the glorified state and eternal bliss? After all, where does all the mortal saints in the millennium go when the earth flees away (Revelation 20:11) or passes away (Revelation 21:1-5)? Surely, they are not going to pass away when the earth passes away?

Can Premils please tell us what happens to the supposed glorified saints that inhabit this supposed future Premil millennium when the old earth flees away and the new earth arrives at the end of Satan's little season?

Do they experience another catching away (“rapture”) or do they just float off the old earth for a few moments while wrath is poured out?
 
Upvote 0