The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

bobsmename · Jan 5, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Yes, I do not believe Sinless Perfection is a salvation issue. I believe we have to meet the bare level minimum requirement for holy living, which is to overcome (and or put away in time) grievous sin out of our lives with the help of God and by His grace and mercy and power. I do not believe all sins condemn a person. But the Bible does make clear those sins that do condemn us (like murder, hate, adultery, theft, coveting, idolatry, lying, etc.). Faults of character (like not listening all that well in every instance), and or not taking out the trash on time, or going over the speed limit a little on the highway are not sins that lead to spiritual death (in my view).

Do you understand what coveting involves? If you dwell on an impure thought you are guilty of coveting? So according to what you wrote, if you or any other Christian dwells on any impure thoughts in your mind you are going to hell because you broke the commandment not to covet. Now you may claim you never dwell on any impure thoughts, but I wonder how many others would make that claim? I sincerely do not understand why so many who quote 'you must obey certain laws seem to have little understanding of what that entails.
I will repeat. The bible states the ten commandments are the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation. If you want to be judged according to your obedience of such law that is of course your entitlement.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 6, 2020

bobsmename said:
So you claim not to invite friends or family home for a meal but rather the poor, lame, blind and beggars so you may receive your reward in Heaven for doing so?

Actually, Jesus actually claimed this (and not I). We have to strive to obey the words of Jesus, no matter how hard they may appear to be. Why? Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

We are also not alone. For with man such things are impossible, but with God, all things are possible (Matthew 19:26). But why should we put treasure in Heaven vs. putting treasure here upon this Earth? Jesus says, where your treasure is, there will your heart be also (Matthew 6:21).

You said:
If someone stole something of yours, you would gladly give them more than what they stole with nothing but love in your heart for them?
If anyone wanted to borrow from you, you would give to them without ever expecting anything back?

The issue is not whether I will do so or not. I am not the standard, God's Word (the Bible is the standard) in how we are to live. One is seeking to either please the Lord by obeying Him, or they are not seeking to do that. The problem today is that many are seeking to not believe the words of Jesus and they are seeking to make excuses for not obeying His words, and to justify that they can sin on some level while under God's grace. Isaiah 26:10 says, "Let grace be shown to the wicked, Yet he will not learn righteousness;"

Anyways, Luke 6:29 says,
"...and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also."

Why?

Jesus says,
"For there is more to life than food, and more to the body than clothing."
(Luke 12:23).

And Paul says,
"For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." (Romans 14:17).

You said:
You truly in your heart love all your enemies, without slip, those who may persecute you, lie about you, or be unkind to you in anyway?

We are told to...

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

If we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15).
Even Jesus said, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."
(Luke 23:34); And Jesus is our example (1 Peter 2:21).

You said:
You leap for joy if you are persecuted?

Why should we do this?

Paul says,

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." (Romans 8:18).

You said:
If you have ever fasted you have not so much as hinted to anyone you are fasting?

Why should we do this?

Jesus says,

"But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly." (Matthew 6:17-18).

Wouldn't a believer who truly wants to follow Jesus desire to be rewarded openly by the Father? Sure they do.

You said:
You see, you just quote words and tell others how they should/must live, but it has nothing to do with the reality of your own life does it.

Again, it is not about me. It would also not matter if I told you what good works God has done through my life. So far, you have implied that it is impossible to obey the words of Jesus. If this is the case, then why would you believe me? Besides, I am not into boasting. All glory and praise goes to Jesus Christ for any good done in my life. Also, trust has to be earned. I do not confide in those who are against what God's Word plainly says.

Noah was a preacher of righteousness. I could imagine that those he was preaching to would think he was crazy that anyone besides him and his family could live righteously because the whole world was wicked. The wicked men at that time would look to themselves or their neighbors as the standard of truth, and they would not believe Noah.

You said:
Matt7:2 is good to remember

Matthew 7:2 is dealing with hypocritical judgment and not that a believer cannot judge. Just read the next verse (Matthew 7:3). For Jesus says that we can judge righteously (John 7:24). Paul says, "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." (Ephesians 5;11).

Acts of the Apostles 3:23 says that any man who does not hear that prophet (JESUS), they will be destroyed. Jesus says in Matthew 7:26-27 that everyone who does not do what He says, they are like a fool who built their house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of their house.

Yes, this would even include me.
I am not above the Word of God anymore than anybody else.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 6, 2020

bobsmename said:
Gal3:10-11 was not misquoted at all, it referred to the moral law of the ten commandments, nine of which are applicable today as written. The legalistic law, as you should know could be faultlessly obeyed, people who did not know God(according to Christ could faultlessly obey that law as could Saul the Pharisee. The problem was always the moral law. That has never been faultlessly obeyed, and if you want to be justified by law you have to faultlessly obey # it as Paul and James clearly tell us.

It amazes ,me that many can just excuse the sin they do have as sin that is not that important whilst they still believe they will attain heaven because they have obeyed the law.

Again, you have to prove according to the Bible that Paul was at times referring exclusively to the keeping of the Moral Law as being a problem while under God's grace. Actually, in Titus 2:11-12, Paul says that the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.

Paul was fighting against Circumcision Salvationism:

Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”
1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)
Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”
Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

In fact, this heresy of Circumcision Salvationism was addressed at the Jerusalem council:

Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

Funny, how they did not say that keeping the Moral Law was the problem. In fact, John says that if any man hates his brother, they are like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15). So this shows that the Moral Law does apply to the believer and they have to uphold it, otherwise, they will spiritually die. For even the believing widows that live in pleasure are dead spiritually while they live physically. For it is written: "But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." (1 Timothy 5:6).

Bible Highlighter · Jan 6, 2020

bobsmename said:
Do you understand what coveting involves? If you dwell on an impure thought you are guilty of coveting? So according to what you wrote, if you or any other Christian dwells on any impure thoughts in your mind you are going to hell because you broke the commandment not to covet. Now you may claim you never dwell on any impure thoughts, but I wonder how many others would make that claim? I sincerely do not understand why so many who quote 'you must obey certain laws seem to have little understanding of what that entails.

Jesus said if one were to look upon a woman in lust, their whole body can be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). One either believes these words of Jesus, or they will not believe them. I choose to believe them because the consequences of not believing them places my own soul at risk. My soul is too important to play games with. I will walk the straight and narrow path.

You said:
I will repeat. The bible states the ten commandments are the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation. If you want to be judged according to your obedience of such law that is of course your entitlement.

The letter that kills is in reference to the Law of Moses and NOT all forms of Law.
Again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
The ministry of death is not the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2), or the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25).

Neogaia777 · Jan 6, 2020

"How" we are to seek and obey Jesus and follow God's words, is what is truly important, and matters most, etc... Whether is is only just you in only your own strength, or only in God's strength and God's strength (will, ability, etc) only, etc...

And as far as judging goes...? Way, way, way all too many judge when and where they should not ever, and when and where it is not called for ever... or where they when and should not have to, and are not supposed to ever, etc... And it is that kind of judging (that I see going on way to much and all too often) that I am very much against, etc...

And I seriously question the "motives" involved also....? in and behind most people's judging and judgments also...? Cause they are not very "pure" (to put it mildly) much of the time... And in my observations, hardly not ever, most of the time ever, etc... Very dark hidden motives and motivations most of the time, etc...

And also, not to mention when and where they should not, or do not have to, and therefore should not, etc... Cause if you do do it when and where you should not, you are actually putting your own self in the place of God or in God's place, etc... And that's what is so "dark" about it, etc... Not to mention the "other" "real reasons or true motivations" behind such a thing also, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

jahel · Jan 6, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
This is a vague statement. What are you referring to?
What kind of sins, and do they have to be confessed and forsaken?

Most Christians these days have an unclear view of the reward system. Many use the doctrine of pergatory to explain away what is easily rightly divided in the Word in recognition of the difference between the millenium and eternity. (of course not believing that Christ has a Kingdom future will just leave you with purgatory) Like the prophets of old who couldn't see the church age in the valley when viewing eternity, so too with these 2 trains of thoughts, they cannot see the valley of the millenium when viewing eternity. The prophets of old had an excuse. 1 Peter 1:12

AND this is not confined to any specific denominations even tho they don't term it as pergatory.

School A , believing in eternal salvation, regards all the negative points of reward scripture as applying to the perdition of false believers; while school B, believes that a saved person will perish if he falls, regards these points as applying to the perdition of believers who have fallen.

But the complete revelation of the Bible shows that these negative points refer to the suffering of the loss of the kingdom reward. God's salvation is eternal; once we obtain it, we will never lose it John 10:28-29 But we may suffer the loss of the kingdom reward, even though we still will be saved 1 Corinthians 3:8, 1 Corinthians 3:14-15.

Neither schools of thought recognize the reward of the kingdom; even moreso, they don’t see the suffering of the loss of the kingdom reward. Both consider all the negative points in verses referring to the rewards as referring to perdition.

Hebrews 6 refers to those who have fallen away yet have repented in baptism, tasted of the heavenly (note John the baptist had the ministry of baptism of repentance not to be repeated but rather revisited daily at the throne to receive mercy and a cleaned conscience) Hebrews 10 refers to those who never believed but treated His sacrifice as a common thing and insulted the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 12:28
Therefore receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us have grace, through which we may serve God well-pleasingly with piety and fear;

The Hebron believers had received the kingdom, but they risked losing the reward in the manifestation of the kingdom if they shrank back from the grace of God, from God's new covenant way.

The kingdom in the reality of the kingdom, is an exercise and a discipline Matthew 5:3, 10, 20, Matthew 7:21 from a benevolent Father. Hebrews 10:35, Hebrews 11:6, Hebrews 11:26

Chris V++ · Jan 6, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Your thinking that the traditional church is the normal way of doing things; It is not. Check out these threads here:

The Pastor King (New)

Gods Order in the body of Christ

If i'm understanding the point of these links, I can appreciate not wanting to put priests / pastors on high pedestals, but will never subscribe to a movement calling for the permanent dissolution of traditional churches. (I have to force myself to attend at times but have hardly ever regretted it.) Haven't you never felt the Holy Spirit working in these upscaled communal settings? You already know this but some denominations have checks and balances in place and standardization so to prevent some little fiefdom from developing. I think the Amish meet the way you propose, but (no offense to the Amish) they are exclusive to say the least.

jahel · Jan 6, 2020

jahel said:
Most Christians these days have an unclear view of the reward system. Many use the doctrine of pergatory to explain away what is easily rightly divided in the Word in recognition of the difference between the millenium and eternity. (of course not believing that Christ has a Kingdom future will just leave you with purgatory) Like the prophets of old who couldn't see the church age in the valley when viewing eternity, so too with these 2 trains of thoughts, they cannot see the valley of the millenium when viewing eternity. The prophets of old had an excuse. 1 Peter 1:12

AND this is not confined to any specific denominations even tho they don't term it as pergatory.

School A , believing in eternal salvation, regards all the negative points of reward scripture as applying to the perdition of false believers; while school B, believes that a saved person will perish if he falls, regards these points as applying to the perdition of believers who have fallen.

But the complete revelation of the Bible shows that these negative points refer to the suffering of the loss of the kingdom reward. God's salvation is eternal; once we obtain it, we will never lose it John 10:28-29 But we may suffer the loss of the kingdom reward, even though we still will be saved 1 Corinthians 3:8, 1 Corinthians 3:14-15.

Neither schools of thought recognize the reward of the kingdom; even moreso, they don’t see the suffering of the loss of the kingdom reward. Both consider all the negative points in verses referring to the rewards as referring to perdition.

Hebrews 6 refers to those who have fallen away yet have repented in baptism, tasted of the heavenly (note John the baptist had the ministry of baptism of repentance not to be repeated but rather revisited daily at the throne to receive mercy and a cleaned conscience) Hebrews 10 refers to those who never believed but treated His sacrifice as a common thing and insulted the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 12:28
Therefore receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us have grace, through which we may serve God well-pleasingly with piety and fear;

The Hebron believers had received the kingdom, but they risked losing the reward in the manifestation of the kingdom if they shrank back from the grace of God, from God's new covenant way.

The kingdom in the reality of the kingdom, is an exercise and a discipline Matthew 5:3, 10, 20, Matthew 7:21 from a benevolent Father. Hebrews 10:35, Hebrews 11:6, Hebrews 11:26

Note that an ongoing anything, should the kingdom be manifested now and then eternity, says the same thing, that of believing that He is the rewarding God, rewarding good behaviour and removing rewards for bad behaviour. (culminating in the afterlife) That is still God’s form of discipline.

HatGuy · Jan 6, 2020

Kenny'sID said:
Then you are saying attempting to not sin, leads us to, or makes us sin?

Nope, I'm literally saying that perfectionism leads to sin, it does not lead to perfection. There was a context to my original statement.

Kenny'sID said:
If I'm wrong, will you please show me who teaches God expects perfection? See that is just another deception Hatguy is presenting because without the deceit, he would have to just stop arguing...it's all OSAS has to work with to defends their way.

Or maybe HatGuy can backup his comment there on God or preachers expectation of perfection?

I outline my motivation and views back in post 51. From there I've tried to keep going back to what I was originally saying, but you keep trying to bark up the wrong tree.

The fact that I'm not even OSAS shows me you keep lumping me into some preconceived notion and argue against that. You already judged my theology and intentions before even reading my posts properly, and so our little conversation continues to feel like one giant strawman. Perhaps you've not bothered to read any of what I've been saying? Ironically, it may make you guilty of the very thing you accuse me of doing.

I don't really need to reply to this post because I've stated ad nauseam that the problem with the OP is it misses its mark. I agree with the principle that sin must be talked about and dealt with, but I disagree with the method and the way in which certain scriptures are being used here to validate a method I believe is biblically unsound and therefore ineffective in really dealing with sin. Perhaps our bigger concerns are the same, namely the need for holiness, but our difference lies in how to deal with that issue.

I constantly try and go back to that and you continue to try and put words in my mouth to prove your preconceived notion of me and my theology, which is probably why you feel like you're getting nowhere and resort to frustration and ad hominem. But perhaps if you really engaged the posts and dealt with your presuppositions, the discussion might be more edifying.

jahel · Jan 6, 2020

HatGuy said:
Nope, I'm literally saying that perfectionism leads to sin, it does not lead to perfection. There was a context to my original statement.

I outline my motivation and views back in post 51. From there I've tried to keep going back to what I was originally saying, but you keep trying to bark up the wrong tree.

The fact that I'm not even OSAS shows me you keep lumping me into some preconceived notion and argue against that. You already judged my theology and intentions before even reading my posts properly, and so our little conversation continues to feel like one giant strawman. Perhaps you've not bothered to read any of what I've been saying? Ironically, it may make you guilty of the very thing you accuse me of doing.

I don't really need to reply to this post because I've stated ad nauseam that the problem with the OP is it misses its mark. I agree with the principle that sin must be talked about and dealt with, but I disagree with the method and the way in which certain scriptures are being used here to validate a method I believe is biblically unsound and therefore ineffective in really dealing with sin. Perhaps our bigger concerns are the same, namely the need for holiness, but our difference lies in how to deal with that issue.

I constantly try and go back to that and you continue to try and put words in my mouth to prove your preconceived notion of me and my theology, which is probably why you feel like you're getting nowhere and resort to frustration and ad hominem. But perhaps if you really engaged the posts and dealt with your presuppositions, the discussion might be more edifying.

I don’t think that believing that once in the Family of God always in the Family of God represents a method of ineffectual dealing with sin. I agree that the op misses the mark, but worse is the lack of emphasis on individual responsibility and replaced with micromanagement of the so-called laity.

bobsmename · Jan 6, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Actually, Jesus actually claimed this (and not I). We have to strive to obey the words of Jesus, no matter how hard they may appear to be. Why? Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

We are also not alone. For with man such things are impossible, but with God, all things are possible (Matthew 19:26). But why should we put treasure in Heaven vs. putting treasure here upon this Earth? Jesus says, where your treasure is, there will your heart be also (Matthew 6:21).

The issue is not whether I will do so or not. I am not the standard, God's Word (the Bible is the standard) in how we are to live. One is seeking to either please the Lord by obeying Him, or they are not seeking to do that. The problem today is that many are seeking to not believe the words of Jesus and they are seeking to make excuses for not obeying His words, and to justify that they can sin on some level while under God's grace. Isaiah 26:10 says, "Let grace be shown to the wicked, Yet he will not learn righteousness;"

Anyways, Luke 6:29 says,
"...and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also."

Why?

Jesus says,
"For there is more to life than food, and more to the body than clothing."
(Luke 12:23).

And Paul says,
"For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." (Romans 14:17).

We are told to...

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

If we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15).
Even Jesus said, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."
(Luke 23:34); And Jesus is our example (1 Peter 2:21).

Why should we do this?

Paul says,

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." (Romans 8:18).

Why should we do this?

Jesus says,

"But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly." (Matthew 6:17-18).

Wouldn't a believer who truly wants to follow Jesus desire to be rewarded openly by the Father? Sure they do.

Again, it is not about me. It would also not matter if I told you what good works God has done through my life. So far, you have implied that it is impossible to obey the words of Jesus. If this is the case, then why would you believe me? Besides, I am not into boasting. All glory and praise goes to Jesus Christ for any good done in my life. Also, trust has to be earned. I do not confide in those who are against what God's Word plainly says.

Noah was a preacher of righteousness. I could imagine that those he was preaching to would think he was crazy that anyone besides him and his family could live righteously because the whole world was wicked. The wicked men at that time would look to themselves or their neighbors as the standard of truth, and they would not believe Noah.

Matthew 7:2 is dealing with hypocritical judgment and not that a believer cannot judge. Just read the next verse (Matthew 7:3). For Jesus says that we can judge righteously (John 7:24). Paul says, "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." (Ephesians 5;11).

Acts of the Apostles 3:23 says that any man who does not hear that prophet (JESUS), they will be destroyed. Jesus says in Matthew 7:26-27 that everyone who does not do what He says, they are like a fool who built their house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of their house.

Yes, this would even include me.
I am not above the Word of God anymore than anybody else.

So we have established that though you lay the condition of eternal life on obeying Christ's commands, you yourself do not even try and obey many of them

bobsmename · Jan 6, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Again, you have to prove according to the Bible that Paul was at times referring exclusively to the keeping of the Moral Law as being a problem while under God's grace. Actually, in Titus 2:11-12, Paul says that the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.

Paul was fighting against Circumcision Salvationism:

Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”

Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”

Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”

1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)

Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”

Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”

Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

In fact, this heresy of Circumcision Salvationism was addressed at the Jerusalem council:

Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

Funny, how they did not say that keeping the Moral Law was the problem. In fact, John says that if any man hates his brother, they are like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15). So this shows that the Moral Law does apply to the believer and they have to uphold it, otherwise, they will spiritually die. For even the believing widows that live in pleasure are dead spiritually while they live physically. For it is written: "But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." (1 Timothy 5:6).

The reason you have to die to righteousness of obeying the law, is NOT due to the legalistic law. Paul himself said he faultlessly obeyed that law as a Pharisee(Phil3:6) The Pharisees of Jesus day could also faultlessly obey outwardly, so it is quite plain you would not need to die to righteousness of obeying law you could faultlessly obey.
And who has said what is written in the moral law does not apply to the believer?

bobsmename · Jan 6, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Jesus said if one were to look upon a woman in lust, their whole body can be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). One either believes these words of Jesus, or they will not believe them. I choose to believe them because the consequences of not believing them places my own soul at risk. My soul is too important to play games with. I will walk the straight and narrow path.

The letter that kills is in reference to the Law of Moses and NOT all forms of Law.
Again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
The ministry of death is not the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2), or the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25).

Paul states the letter that kills is the law engraved in stone. Only the ten commandments were engraved in stone. I assume, you would happily tell a young teenager if they dwelt on any impure thought they will end up in hell due to your beliefs. But you wouldn't tell them that would you. Many peoples reality is not what they preach

Kenny'sID · Jan 6, 2020

HatGuy said:
I outline my motivation and views back in post 51. From there I've tried to keep going back to what I was originally saying, but you keep trying to bark up the wrong tree.

HatGuy said:
I constantly try and go back to that and you continue to try and put words in my mouth to prove your preconceived notion of me and my theology,

Best stick with one post at a time so everything is right here before us for less confusion. My question to you was perfectly legitimate considering your claim. It made no sense at and I still don't understand how striving for perfection can possibly lead to sin (seems to me it would do the opposite), so since you only made the claim and gave no basis for it, I will ask what that basis is....fair enough?.

per·fec·tion·ism
/pərˈfekSHəˌnizəm/

Learn to pronounce

noun
noun: perfectionism
refusal to accept any standard short of perfection.
Philosophy
a doctrine holding that religious, moral, social, or political perfection is attainable,

1) How does perfectionism, as defined, lead to sin"?

2) And who was it that claimed that doctrine, as it is defined, is attainable or is a non OSAS thing to begin with?

Seems you somehow got that we are perfectionism based out of us feeling we should try to obey Christ, so unless you have a reason for even bringing that up as the thing that it never was here, I must ask, why be deceitful, and say that doctrine is ours? Could be someone claimed it so you have the benefit of the doubt for the moment, but if it turns out that isn't the case, it's very necessary to bring it up, just as I have challenged other things that anti OSAS/whoever are wrongly stating we believe in order to win their case. Surely you can see that simply isn't fair, nor is it real.

Your turn to read/listen, so you will be certain why I go after certain posts.

I'll make one more attempt to drive my point home about the many defense deceptions used here/elsewhere and as I proved earlier, way way too often, using this one as example. If the Perfectionism doctrine is applied to non OSAS, and you do make your case that obtaining Perfectionism is not possible, then you have in reality, won /done nothing relevant because as far as I know (yet to be seen) non OSAS, never claimed Perfectionism as their thing, I know I didn't. it's simply something that was made up, using the fact we feel it is necessary to obey God/Christ.

HatGuy said:
The fact that I'm not even OSAS shows me you keep lumping me into some preconceived notion and argue against that.

HatGuy said:
But perhaps if you really engaged the posts and dealt with your presuppositions, the discussion might be more edifying.

I have engaged the posts, that is what this reply is about, I engaged what I thought was wrong, just as I have been, just as your side/everyone else has been doing, as in making accusations, judging (as you call it) and such...all in a days debate. And now I'm asking you to explain, or make your case.

Also, you go on about how I'm not doing what I really am doing as well as past posts you claim I didn't read or treat just as you thought I should have.

3) What in particular of your past posts do you think I didn't bother to read? And please try to keep it as simple and straightforward as possible.

So, just the three questions in this post, they are numbered.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 6, 2020

Chris V++ said:
If i'm understanding the point of these links, I can appreciate not wanting to put priests / pastors on high pedestals, but will never subscribe to a movement calling for the permanent dissolution of traditional churches. (I have to force myself to attend at times but have hardly ever regretted it.) Haven't you never felt the Holy Spirit working in these upscaled communal settings? You already know this but some denominations have checks and balances in place and standardization so to prevent some little fiefdom from developing. I think the Amish meet the way you propose, but (no offense to the Amish) they are exclusive to say the least.

The problems are numerous. The early church (the people, and not a building) met in each other's homes and they did not seek to build a big building and designate one man to speak and run things. Unbelievers can walk in and start to praise God next to you. They may never even accept the Lord, but they just go there. But what fellowship does light have with darkness? 2 Corinthians 6 warns against this. Try re-reading the chapter several times to let it sink in by what Paul is really saying. Also, church has become like a big show or form of entertainment. Smoke, and lights, and hip music all are a part of worshiping God. Women come to church dressing indecently (tempting other men). Everybody comes and sings, and hears the message, and they go home. Most do not really get intimate with everyone there and get to know each other and go over each other's homes and or help the new person to follow Jesus and to live holy and to study His Word. They do not go out and help the poor, and spread the gospel in their area.

Neogaia777 · Jan 6, 2020

bobsmename said:
The reason you have to die to righteousness of obeying the law, is NOT due to the legalistic law. Paul himself said he faultlessly obeyed that law as a Pharisee(Phil3:6) The Pharisees of Jesus day could also faultlessly obey outwardly, so it is quite plain you would not need to die to righteousness of obeying law you could faultlessly obey.
And who has said what is written in the moral law does not apply to the believer?

Faultlessly obeying the Law outwardly does not mean you are inwardly, and is actually opposed to faultlessly obeying it inwardly, etc.

And therein lies the main problem, etc...

It creates a contradiction and a conflict from within, or on the inside of a man, etc... Seed of hypocrisy, etc... and overall horrible, evil wicked hearts, etc... angry hateful bitter, jealous and envious, overly critical, and uneccessarily overly critical, and very hypocritical judgmental dispositions, behaviors, actions and attitudes, etc...

All because of that conflict or contradiction from within, etc... due to trying to obey it outwardly that is actually opposed to truly obeying it/them inwardly, etc...

"Not good" to say the least...

Anyway,

God Bless!

Bible Highlighter · Jan 6, 2020

bobsmename said:
So we have established that though you lay the condition of eternal life on obeying Christ's commands, you yourself do not even try and obey many of them

Again, you do not know my heart and life on whether or not I seek to obey the Lord's commands or not. Besides, whether I live holy and perfect or not, I am not the standard. God's Word is the standard. Tell me: Why would Jesus tell us to do all those things specifically if they were impossible to do? Jesus was very specific and detailed about doing certain righteous things. Why would Jesus make statements that strongly suggest that we are to obey Him if that is secretly not really what He wants us to do? Do you have a good and rational alternative explanations by what Jesus told us to do as not be relevant for us today? Jesus said, "And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it." (Luke 8:21). Again, your words are contrary to the words of Jesus. You have to give me a good reason in Scripture; If not, then I am just going to assume that you are rejecting whole giant portions of the words of Jesus here. Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

BNR32FAN · Jan 6, 2020

jahel said:
What is a mortal sin? What future sin will our mediator not cover at the throne of grace?

Failure to abide in Christ is a mortal sin.

bobsmename · Jan 6, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Again, you do not know my heart and life on whether or not I seek to obey the Lord's commands or not. Besides, whether I live holy and perfect or not, I am not the standard. God's Word is the standard. Tell me: Why would Jesus tell us to do all those things specifically if they were impossible to do? Jesus was very specific and detailed about doing certain righteous things. Why would Jesus make statements that strongly suggest that we are to obey Him if that is secretly not really what He wants us to do? Do you have a good and rational alternative explanations by what Jesus told us to do as not be relevant for us today? Jesus said, "And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it." (Luke 8:21). Again, your words are contrary to the words of Jesus. You have to give me a good reason in Scripture; If not, then I am just going to assume that you are rejecting whole giant portions of the words of Jesus here. Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

I follow the true Gospel, I do not preach a Gospel that would condemn me. If your message is correct, you condemn yourself. Yet you do not believe you are condemned do you, so in your own life, you do not believe what you write here

Neogaia777 · Jan 6, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Again, you do not know my heart and life on whether or not I seek to obey the Lord's commands or not. Besides, whether I live holy and perfect or not, I am not the standard. God's Word is the standard. Tell me: Why would Jesus tell us to do all those things specifically if they were impossible to do? Jesus was very specific and detailed about doing certain righteous things. Why would Jesus make statements that strongly suggest that we are to obey Him if that is secretly not really what He wants us to do? Do you have a good and rational alternative explanations by what Jesus told us to do as not be relevant for us today? Jesus said, "And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it." (Luke 8:21). Again, your words are contrary to the words of Jesus. You have to give me a good reason in Scripture; If not, then I am just going to assume that you are rejecting whole giant portions of the words of Jesus here.

We will never ever see any kind of real true success ever always trying to keep them only in our own will and strength only ever, etc...

Why a personal relationship has to come first before and kind of Law keeping and/or obeying, etc... Because we need to have and/or be doing it in His strength and will and/or ability only, and not just only our own only, etc...

Without that there is no hope, etc...

Without that you are only deceiving yourself (and possibly others) and your own mind, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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