Is God Moral?

Is God moral?

  • Yes

    Votes: 23 100.0%
  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    23

hedrick

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In principle God doesn't have to conform with our standards, such as morality. However Jesus' view is that we love people and treat them well as a response to God's love and treatment of us. So I believe that our morality has to agree reasonably with the principles that God follows. He may do something that seems wrong because he knows something that we don't. But in general he should act morally.

I realize there are examples from the Bible where he didn't. In a few cases this may be because he knew something we don't. But I think the early Israelites didn't fully understand God, and attributed actions to him that he didn't actually approve of (if in fact those passages are historical at all).
 
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Josheb

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Look man, I do not respond well to hypocricy or lies.
It has not been shown anyone but you has been hypocritical or lied.


Once again you're off-topic in your own op.
Once again you've insinutated something without a single byte of evidence.
Once again the baseless insinuation demonstrates the problem of "saying so doesn't make it so" that you yourself have decried. Inother words, you just practiced that which is reportedly disdained.

That is called hypocrisy, Clete!

Log, not speck.

Because you are going to get exasperated with the frequency I continue to hold up the mirror of your own posts to you and you'll end up breaking off cyber-fellowship unnecessarily. The solution is simple: Stick to the op and the op-relevant content others bring to bear upon it.

One single more sentence like this coming from the man who hasn't substantiated a single syllable of one solitary objection he's presented, will very suddenly end the discussion.
Welcome to my ignore list.
Another example of hypocrisy: there is no welcome to ignoring or being ignored. The statement is self-contradictory. It's like saying, "I'm sorry you're a jerk," or "I'm sorry for saying bad things about you, you jerk." It is self-indicting. Such statements do not demonstrate any sorrow, regret, or remorse.
Don't waste your time responding to anything I ever say again. I won't read it.
When you get elected sheriff of CF then you can tell others how and when to post. Until then only one thing is expected of any and all:


A polite and respectful, reasonable and rational, cogent and coherent topical case of well-rendered scripture.

And this op is missing that standard widely. That's not on me, Clete. I am not alone pointing out some of the problems in this op. Ignoring posters' posts won't change that fact.



And as to whether or not you read what is posted is another non sequitur. Most of us post so we might learn. None ignored by you will learn from you. Those reading misguided ops may be unduly influenced by the errors contained in those ops so it is incumbent upon others to correct those errors so all readers may benefit. The goal(s) can be found in places like Ephesians 4 and these are goals 1) upon which we all should agree, and 2) inherently entail correction along the way so that standard places every single one of us in a position to be teachable and learn.

Ephesians 4:11-16
"[Christ] gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love."

Iron sharpening iron necessarily involves friction. Was it imagined everyone would just bow down to the op and universal agreement would ensue? If not the show up!


So I'm going to affirm the op where it warrants affirming, inquire about that which is either unclear or I don't understand, and refute that which does not bear consistency with scripture. You can do with that what you like.
 
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Josheb

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Is God moral?

....God is not subject to anyone or anything, including a moral standard - He is the standard!
Which is the answer to the question asked!

Q: Is God moral?
A: God is the moral standard.

Short discussion.

Accordingly, clearly something else is at play in this op.
 
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Josheb

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What is the source of such confusion?
What "confusion"? The hypothetical confusion of hypothetical people not present in this discussion?


How about we stick to

1) The question to be answered: Is God moral?
2) The answer provided in the op,
3) The answers other respondents provide,
4) and the discussion of the content actually present and not abstractly hypothetical?
 
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I posted this essay in another thread and got a response that was disappointing, to say the least. I'm pretty sure the person didn't understand it. So, I decided that it would be good to give it it's own thread.

But, before you read the essay below, answer the poll. People might be surprised by the results! By the title of the essay, you can tell that my answer is "yes" but don't let that bias your answer. Just go with your gut and answer it the way you would if you were asked the question in some mundane context not associated with a Christian web forum and then read the essay and see if your position is modified at all (regardless of which answer you give to the poll which I intentionally made a binary choice). I'd also love it if you posted an explanation of your answer as well as any reaction you have to what I say in the essay.

Enjoy!


Our Moral God

The question of God's morality might, to some, seem a ridiculous question. To some, the idea that God might not be moral is so ludicrous a thought that it would be downright blasphemous to even utter it aloud. After all, they say, if God is amoral (i.e. non-moral) then there can be no standard of right and wrong. But, to those who take such a position, it would come as quite a surprise to discover that there are at least as many, if not more, who think it an equally blasphemous thought to suggest that God is moral. After all, God is not subject to anyone or anything, including a moral standard - He is the standard! Right?

What is the source of such confusion? Well, there are many possible ways to answer that question, the most obvious of which has to do with the defining of terms and explaining in more detail what is meant when one says that God is, or is not, moral. But I don't believe that the problem can really be solved by a mere analysis of the semantics involved. This is not an issue of sophistry but rather it is a problem of philosophy. There is a more fundamentally philosophical issue involved here that I believe the vast majority of people on both sides of this issue do not understand nor do they even have any inkling of the issue's existence for that matter. The purpose of this short essay is to bring this issue to the attention of those on both sides of this issue and to explain how the God we serve is indeed moral but not because He follows or is subject to a set of rules nor because His nature defines morality, which is meaningless, but because God is rational.

In John chapter one we are taught not simply that Jesus is God, nor simply that God became a man, but that God the Son is the Logos of God. The New King James renders the passage this way...

John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.​

In this passage, everywhere you see the phrase, "the Word" the Greek word being used is "Logos". It is important to understand what this Greek word means because the use of "Word" as an English translation just does not convey what this passage is teaching. Logos conveys the idea of communication or more specifically, discourse and more specifically than that, rational discourse and/or rational argument. It is the word from which we get the suffix "-ology", as in Biology, Theology, Technology, Climatology, Cosmology, etc. Let's look at the word "biology". "Bio" means life and "ology" means to study. So, the study of living things is "Biology" and the processes in a living creature are said to be biological. Notice bio-LOGICAL. To apply logic to the processes in living things, and thus to understand them (i.e. to study them), is biology, it is the logos of life. This is the meaning conveyed by the word "Logos". It, like any other word, as a sphere of meaning that can vary depending on the specific context but this is the core meaning of the word in the Greek language.

So now, with this better understanding of the Greek, lets look at this passage again...

John 1:1 In the beginning was Logic, and Logic was with God, and Logic was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And Logic became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.​

Now, there are some who object to such a translation thinking it improper to equate the living God with some abstract concept such as logic. But it should be noted that those who make such an objection never object to God being equated with the abstract concept of "Word", nor are they typically capable of offering any explanation as to what exactly it means to say "the Word was God". In other words, people who object on the grounds of referring to God as an abstraction, typically have no real problem with abstractions so long as the abstraction being used makes no sense.
This is, however, quite a new idea to most of those reading this and so let me just cite a couple of others who have used and acknowledged the validity of such a translation. Not that doing so helps to prove anything other than that this teaching is not unique to, nor can it's genesis be attributed to me. Indeed, this idea is as old as Christianity. As evidence of both its veracity and its antiquity, I offer the following quotations, the likes of which there are many...

"...this translation––may not only sound strange to devout ears, it may even sound obnoxious and offensive. But the shock only measures the devout person's distance from the language and thought of the Greek New Testament. Why it is offensive to call Christ Logic, when it does not offend to call him a word, is hard to explain. But such is often the case. Even Augustine, because he insisted that God is truth, has been subjected to the anti–intellectualistic accusation of "reducing" God to a proposition. At any rate, the strong intellectualism of the word Logos is seen in its several possible translations: to wit, computation, (financial) accounts, esteem, proportion and (mathematical) ratio, explanation, theory or argument, principle or law, reason, formula, debate, narrative, speech, deliberation, discussion, oracle, sentence, and wisdom.
Any translation of John 1:1 that obscures this emphasis on mind or reason is a bad translation. And if anyone complains that the idea of ratio or debate obscures the personality of the second person of the Trinity, he should alter his concept of personality. In the beginning, then, was Logic." - Gordon H. Clark; Against The World. The Trinity Review, 1978-1988. [God And Logic, Gordon H. Clark, p. 52-56] John W. Robbins, Editor.

"For not only among the Greeks did reason (Logos) prevail to condemn these things through Socrates, but also among the Barbarians were they condemned by Reason (or the Word, the Logos) Himself, who took shape, and became man, and was called Jesus Christ;" Justin Martyr: The First Apology of Justin Chapter V

Logos n. < Gr, a word: see Logic 1 Gr. Philos. reason, thought of as constituting the controlling principle of the universe and as being manifested by speech 2 Christian Theol. the eternal thought or word of God, made incarnate in Jesus Christ: John 1 - Webster's Dictionary​

Okay, so what's the point? God is Logic, Logic is God - so what? Well, let's suppose someone, for whatever reason, rejects the Bible, Jesus Christ and the whole concept of God, a true atheist, attempts to think through the issues of life and does so in such a way so as to stay as true to the principles of logic and sound reason is he possibly can. If the Living God is Logic then what conclusions should this person come too? Should they not be at least very similar to the teachings which are found in Scripture? If such an atheist existed and made such an attempt to use reason to formulate his philosophy of life, would he not be using God to formulate it, even if by accident and in ignorance?

Now, bearing that in mind I want to look at John 1 again. This time just verse 4...

John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.​

I find it interesting that the issue of life is brought up in the context of the Logos of God. It interests me because if one were to attempt to contemplate a rational basis for morality, life would have to be a necessary starting point because it is only to the living that issues of morality apply or matter. Ayn Rand, just the sort of atheist to which I've been referring, put it this way...

"...the first question is "Does man need values at all—and why?" According to Rand, "it is only the concept of 'Life' that makes the concept of 'Value' possible," and, "the fact that a living entity is, determines what it ought to do." Rand writes: "there is only one fundamental alternative in the universe: existence or non-existence—and it pertains to a single class of entities: to living organisms. The existence of inanimate matter is unconditional, the existence of life is not: it depends on a specific course of action... It is only a living organism that faces a constant alternative: the issue of life or death..." The survival of the organism is the ultimate value to which all of the organism's activities are aimed, the end served by all of its lesser values." Ayn Rand (1964). The Virtue of Selfishness (paperback ed.). p. 13 & 18 New York: Signet.​

Rand also said...

"Man's mind is his basic tool of survival. Life is given to him, survival is not. His body is given to him, its sustenance is not. His mind is given to him, its content is not. To remain alive he must act and before he can act he must know the nature and purpose of his action. He cannot obtain his food without knowledge of food and of the way to obtain it. He cannot dig a ditch––or build a cyclotron––without a knowledge of his aim and the means to achieve it. To remain alive, he must think." Rand, Ayn (1992) [1957]. Atlas Shrugged (35th anniversary ed.). p. 1012 New York: Dutton​

Now, according to Rand, rationality is the primary virtue in ethics (i.e. morality). For rand ethics is...

"the recognition and acceptance of reason as one's only source of knowledge, one's only judge of values and one's only guide to action." Rand, Ayn (1964). The Virtue of Selfishness (paperback ed.). p. 25 New York: Signet.​

All of which, if God is Logic, is entirely consistent with the common Christian teaching that morality is derived from and defined by God's nature. Which, by the way, is not to say that Ayn Rand was a godly person, nor that her philosophical conclusions were all correct. On the contrary, her rejection of the existence of God led to a great many errors, some of which are disastrous and grievously wrong. But, nevertheless, to the degree she stayed true to reason, her conclusions remained close to the truth, which means, by definition, that they remained close to God and His truth as taught in the pages of Scripture.

Rand's quintessential statement on morality is this ...

"Since reason is man’s basic means of survival, that which is proper to the life of a rational being is the good; that which negates, opposes or destroys it is the evil." Ayn Rand: Atlas Shrugged​

Now, since we now know that God is Reason, what could an atheist say that would be any more in line with the teachings of Scripture than that!?

I submit that in fact there is nothing an atheist or anyone else could say that would be more in line with the teaching a Scripture and that, in fact, we can find the answer to the confusion surrounding the morality of God in the fact the God is Logic. Morality is not simply defined by God's character as many Christians suppose, but rather that which is moral is so because it is rational, which, if you are following the line of thinking in this essay properly, you'll understand is the equivalent of saying that what is moral is so because it is God like. To say that God is moral, is not to say that God has a list of rules that He must follow but simply that God is Life and that He is consistent with Himself and therefore acts in way which is proper to Life. Thus, to say that God is moral is to say that God is rational. An amoral (non-moral) God would be non-rational and therefore non-personal, non-relational, non-thinking, non-living, non-real!

God is real! Therefore, God is rational, therefore God is moral!

Clete Pfeiffer
3/24/2012

Scripture and a believer's walk with God testifies to God's goodness and or His moral character. Jesus said, "there is none good but one, that is, God" (Matthew 19:17). This does not mean we cannot be good or live a good life that God requires of us. Jesus desired men to live holy lives by allowing God to live within us to do the good work (John 15:5) (Philippians 2:13). The apostle John says, God is love (1 John 4:8). Most in the church today teach that God is not exactly moral (even though they may say that He is moral and good). They think God agrees with a believer's grievous sin on some small level. Sure, they may not justify murder, rape, armed robbery, etc.; But they do say that a believer can commit suicide and be saved. They do say that in certain cases, a believer can be killed physically by God early and be taken to Heaven if they slip into drunkenness or gluttony. They do believe they can lie and or cuss and be saved. But if God is good, would He agree with these other kinds of grievous sins? Surely not. God is holy and He cannot justify those sins that He clearly condemns within His Word because that would mean God is not consistent in His morality (or goodness). Can they seek forgiveness for their sin? Yes, but they cannot justify their sin. For God is good. God is holy, and righteous; There is no darkness in God.
 
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Josheb

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Well, there are many possible ways to answer that question, the most obvious of which has to do with the defining of terms and explaining in more detail what is meant when one says that God is, or is not, moral. But I don't believe that the problem can really be solved by a mere analysis of the semantics involved.
So the "obvious" way to answer the question is not believed to solve the problem. Again I reiterate: the author of this article has just stated s/he does not believe the obvious answer will not solve the problem, and the "problem" is answering the already answered question, "Is God moral?"

Question:
Is God moral?
Answer: God is the moral standard.
Commentary: We should define the term "moral" but not in any obvious manner because that won't solve the problem of how do we answer the question.

What question?

Question: Is God moral?
Answer: God is the moral standard.

I trust my fellow brothers and sisters are just as crtical examining of what they read written by ThDs as they are of the posters in CF. Does anyone else see the problem in the opening argument of this article, or am I alone is seeing the rhetoric as something we do not want to accept or embrace?
 
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Josheb

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This is not an issue of sophistry but rather it is a problem of philosophy.
False dichotomy. Irony: The false dichotomy makes that statement sophistry.

Again I ask my fellow readers to be as critical of the source material as they may be of posters' posts.
 
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hedrick

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Which is the answer to the question asked!

Q: Is God moral?
A: God is the moral standard.

Short discussion.

Accordingly, clearly something else is at play in this op.
I've seen claims in CF postings that go the other way. When discussing the OT genocide stories and other apparent immoral actions by God, there were people saying that God could and did do things which would be immoral by standards set for us.
 
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Josheb

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The purpose of this short essay is to bring this issue to the attention of those on both sides of this issue and to explain how the God we serve is indeed moral but not because He follows or is subject to a set of rules nor because His nature defines morality, which is meaningless, but because God is rational.
Wonderful statement of purpose! Let's affirm that purpose and examine the case presented for the answer already provided.

Question: Is God moral?
Answer:
God is the moral standard.

Thesis: God is indeed moral because God is rational.

When all the rhetoric and dnied sophistry is stripped away this is what that article is asserting. It bases its position upon the premise the word "logos" in the preamble of John's gospel is better rendered as "logic," stating quite plainly, "this is the core meaning of the word in the Greek language."


The problem with that position is that "logical" is not a very good replacement for the word logos and the author of that position has himself violated his own standard of considering context.



Folks, John was probably referencing the Jewish philosopher Philo.


Here's what Philo wrote about Alexander the Great,

"To his Logos, his chief messenger, highest in the age and honor, the Father of all has given the special prerogative to stand on the border and separate the creature from the Creator. This same Logos both pleads with the Immortal as suppliant for the afflicted mortality and acts as ambassador of the ruler to the subject. He glories in this prerogative and proudly describes it in these words, 'I stood between the Lord and you.'"

That is what the first century Jew would have seen reading John's preamble. John is the most Jewish of the NT writers, more so even than Paul. John constantly references the Tanakh, and he does so in his gospel repeatedly correcting Jewish thought.

To try to understand John's use of "logos" absent these and other contexts is a Fail. To attempt a definition or interpretation of John's use of "logos" through a modern analysis of Greek terms absent the first century contexts is an even greater Fail.


Furthermore, I assume most of us here are familiar with the distinctions between Greek and Roman deification of supposedly noble or great, mighty, and victorious humans and the inherent deity of the man Jesus Christ. If not, then just let me know and I'll provide a brief summary, or look it up online. This is important because all of the gospels confront the view of deification prevalent in the first century theisms. The word "gospel" (Gk.: "euangelion") is translated "good news," but the actual Greek words for "good " and "news" are "kalon" and "akoē." (Strong's G2098, G2570, and G189, respectively)

Look it up.

An "euangelion" is something else entirely. That term had enormous significance in the first century, especially to the Roman-occupied Jews to whom the King of (all) Kings Who is Himself the Logos of God that is God had just come.

Folks failing to include that in their rendering of "logos" are also failing both themselves and their readers.


Therefore, the word "logic" nor "reason" is an appropriate, adequate, or correct replacement for the term "logos" in John's preamble, and.....


...Therefore, that analysis of the term logos is not a rational basis for answering the question, "Is God moral?" or more accurately, "Is the God that is the moral standard moral?"
 
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Josheb

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Now, there are some who object to such a translation thinking it improper to equate the living God with some abstract concept such as logic. But it should be noted that those who make such an objection never object to God being equated with the abstract concept of "Word"....
That is because God Himself asserts the ontology of "the logos was God," and not "the logic was God."


It is in fact improper to change or interpret God's word as written with human understanding, especially when and where that human understanding ignores all the inherent intra-scriptural and cultural contexts to God's use of His terms. God is, after all, the Author of language.
....nor are they typically capable of offering any explanation as to what exactly it means to say "the Word was God".
I can. I can and have.
In other words, people who object on the grounds of referring to God as an abstraction, typically have no real problem with abstractions so long as the abstraction being used makes no sense.
Hmmmmm.... Is this intended to insinuate God's use of the abstraction, "the logos was God," makes no sense?

If so then that is a false statement and everything built upon it is likewise false.

If not then the entire comment and it's line of discourse is irrelevant to the discussion at hand AND irrelevant to answering the question asked, "Is God moral?"


Which gets us back to the reality: this article argues illogically that logic is a viable means of understanding the moral nature of God!
 
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Josheb

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I've seen claims in CF postings that go the other way. When discussing the OT genocide stories and other apparent immoral actions by God, there were people saying that God could and did do things which would be immoral by standards set for us.
Yes, but the article in this OP answers the question as stated.

The op asks a question and then answers it, and answers it definitively (from its pov and that with which most of us Christians agree).

So why the need for further discussion?


Well......... the answer to that question appears to be : so I can sell you all on this idea God is moral because he's logical.

Which is an argument I suspect most of us will reject. I've read Clark before and am an advocate of presuppositional apologetics. I've tried to track down an online copy of the article from the Trinity Review and found this OP has been posted in other forums. I'd like to know whether the quote from Clark is a quote mine because I suspect Clark said much, much more about both the logos and and logic. I'd like to have a fuller understanding of his position. If this does turn out to be a quote mine then I will post that evidence and if not then I will confirm the accuracy of the quote but continue my critique. Clark doesn't get a pass just because he's brilliant, ejumicated, and I usually like his positions :sunglasses:.


Are the CF posters you read citing "genocide" as immoral acts Christians? If you can link to such an example among Christians I think I'd be interested in reading that exchange.
 
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danielmears

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I posted this essay in another thread and got a response that was disappointing, to say the least. I'm pretty sure the person didn't understand it. So, I decided that it would be good to give it it's own thread.

But, before you read the essay below, answer the poll. People might be surprised by the results! By the title of the essay, you can tell that my answer is "yes" but don't let that bias your answer. Just go with your gut and answer it the way you would if you were asked the question in some mundane context not associated with a Christian web forum and then read the essay and see if your position is modified at all (regardless of which answer you give to the poll which I intentionally made a binary choice). I'd also love it if you posted an explanation of your answer as well as any reaction you have to what I say in the essay.

Enjoy!


Our Moral God

The question of God's morality might, to some, seem a ridiculous question. To some, the idea that God might not be moral is so ludicrous a thought that it would be downright blasphemous to even utter it aloud. After all, they say, if God is amoral (i.e. non-moral) then there can be no standard of right and wrong. But, to those who take such a position, it would come as quite a surprise to discover that there are at least as many, if not more, who think it an equally blasphemous thought to suggest that God is moral. After all, God is not subject to anyone or anything, including a moral standard - He is the standard! Right?

What is the source of such confusion? Well, there are many possible ways to answer that question, the most obvious of which has to do with the defining of terms and explaining in more detail what is meant when one says that God is, or is not, moral. But I don't believe that the problem can really be solved by a mere analysis of the semantics involved. This is not an issue of sophistry but rather it is a problem of philosophy. There is a more fundamentally philosophical issue involved here that I believe the vast majority of people on both sides of this issue do not understand nor do they even have any inkling of the issue's existence for that matter. The purpose of this short essay is to bring this issue to the attention of those on both sides of this issue and to explain how the God we serve is indeed moral but not because He follows or is subject to a set of rules nor because His nature defines morality, which is meaningless, but because God is rational.

In John chapter one we are taught not simply that Jesus is God, nor simply that God became a man, but that God the Son is the Logos of God. The New King James renders the passage this way...

John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.​

In this passage, everywhere you see the phrase, "the Word" the Greek word being used is "Logos". It is important to understand what this Greek word means because the use of "Word" as an English translation just does not convey what this passage is teaching. Logos conveys the idea of communication or more specifically, discourse and more specifically than that, rational discourse and/or rational argument. It is the word from which we get the suffix "-ology", as in Biology, Theology, Technology, Climatology, Cosmology, etc. Let's look at the word "biology". "Bio" means life and "ology" means to study. So, the study of living things is "Biology" and the processes in a living creature are said to be biological. Notice bio-LOGICAL. To apply logic to the processes in living things, and thus to understand them (i.e. to study them), is biology, it is the logos of life. This is the meaning conveyed by the word "Logos". It, like any other word, as a sphere of meaning that can vary depending on the specific context but this is the core meaning of the word in the Greek language.

So now, with this better understanding of the Greek, lets look at this passage again...

John 1:1 In the beginning was Logic, and Logic was with God, and Logic was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And Logic became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.​

Now, there are some who object to such a translation thinking it improper to equate the living God with some abstract concept such as logic. But it should be noted that those who make such an objection never object to God being equated with the abstract concept of "Word", nor are they typically capable of offering any explanation as to what exactly it means to say "the Word was God". In other words, people who object on the grounds of referring to God as an abstraction, typically have no real problem with abstractions so long as the abstraction being used makes no sense.
This is, however, quite a new idea to most of those reading this and so let me just cite a couple of others who have used and acknowledged the validity of such a translation. Not that doing so helps to prove anything other than that this teaching is not unique to, nor can it's genesis be attributed to me. Indeed, this idea is as old as Christianity. As evidence of both its veracity and its antiquity, I offer the following quotations, the likes of which there are many...

"...this translation––may not only sound strange to devout ears, it may even sound obnoxious and offensive. But the shock only measures the devout person's distance from the language and thought of the Greek New Testament. Why it is offensive to call Christ Logic, when it does not offend to call him a word, is hard to explain. But such is often the case. Even Augustine, because he insisted that God is truth, has been subjected to the anti–intellectualistic accusation of "reducing" God to a proposition. At any rate, the strong intellectualism of the word Logos is seen in its several possible translations: to wit, computation, (financial) accounts, esteem, proportion and (mathematical) ratio, explanation, theory or argument, principle or law, reason, formula, debate, narrative, speech, deliberation, discussion, oracle, sentence, and wisdom.
Any translation of John 1:1 that obscures this emphasis on mind or reason is a bad translation. And if anyone complains that the idea of ratio or debate obscures the personality of the second person of the Trinity, he should alter his concept of personality. In the beginning, then, was Logic." - Gordon H. Clark; Against The World. The Trinity Review, 1978-1988. [God And Logic, Gordon H. Clark, p. 52-56] John W. Robbins, Editor.

"For not only among the Greeks did reason (Logos) prevail to condemn these things through Socrates, but also among the Barbarians were they condemned by Reason (or the Word, the Logos) Himself, who took shape, and became man, and was called Jesus Christ;" Justin Martyr: The First Apology of Justin Chapter V

Logos n. < Gr, a word: see Logic 1 Gr. Philos. reason, thought of as constituting the controlling principle of the universe and as being manifested by speech 2 Christian Theol. the eternal thought or word of God, made incarnate in Jesus Christ: John 1 - Webster's Dictionary​

Okay, so what's the point? God is Logic, Logic is God - so what? Well, let's suppose someone, for whatever reason, rejects the Bible, Jesus Christ and the whole concept of God, a true atheist, attempts to think through the issues of life and does so in such a way so as to stay as true to the principles of logic and sound reason is he possibly can. If the Living God is Logic then what conclusions should this person come too? Should they not be at least very similar to the teachings which are found in Scripture? If such an atheist existed and made such an attempt to use reason to formulate his philosophy of life, would he not be using God to formulate it, even if by accident and in ignorance?

Now, bearing that in mind I want to look at John 1 again. This time just verse 4...

John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.​

I find it interesting that the issue of life is brought up in the context of the Logos of God. It interests me because if one were to attempt to contemplate a rational basis for morality, life would have to be a necessary starting point because it is only to the living that issues of morality apply or matter. Ayn Rand, just the sort of atheist to which I've been referring, put it this way...

"...the first question is "Does man need values at all—and why?" According to Rand, "it is only the concept of 'Life' that makes the concept of 'Value' possible," and, "the fact that a living entity is, determines what it ought to do." Rand writes: "there is only one fundamental alternative in the universe: existence or non-existence—and it pertains to a single class of entities: to living organisms. The existence of inanimate matter is unconditional, the existence of life is not: it depends on a specific course of action... It is only a living organism that faces a constant alternative: the issue of life or death..." The survival of the organism is the ultimate value to which all of the organism's activities are aimed, the end served by all of its lesser values." Ayn Rand (1964). The Virtue of Selfishness (paperback ed.). p. 13 & 18 New York: Signet.​

Rand also said...

"Man's mind is his basic tool of survival. Life is given to him, survival is not. His body is given to him, its sustenance is not. His mind is given to him, its content is not. To remain alive he must act and before he can act he must know the nature and purpose of his action. He cannot obtain his food without knowledge of food and of the way to obtain it. He cannot dig a ditch––or build a cyclotron––without a knowledge of his aim and the means to achieve it. To remain alive, he must think." Rand, Ayn (1992) [1957]. Atlas Shrugged (35th anniversary ed.). p. 1012 New York: Dutton​

Now, according to Rand, rationality is the primary virtue in ethics (i.e. morality). For rand ethics is...

"the recognition and acceptance of reason as one's only source of knowledge, one's only judge of values and one's only guide to action." Rand, Ayn (1964). The Virtue of Selfishness (paperback ed.). p. 25 New York: Signet.​

All of which, if God is Logic, is entirely consistent with the common Christian teaching that morality is derived from and defined by God's nature. Which, by the way, is not to say that Ayn Rand was a godly person, nor that her philosophical conclusions were all correct. On the contrary, her rejection of the existence of God led to a great many errors, some of which are disastrous and grievously wrong. But, nevertheless, to the degree she stayed true to reason, her conclusions remained close to the truth, which means, by definition, that they remained close to God and His truth as taught in the pages of Scripture.

Rand's quintessential statement on morality is this ...

"Since reason is man’s basic means of survival, that which is proper to the life of a rational being is the good; that which negates, opposes or destroys it is the evil." Ayn Rand: Atlas Shrugged​

Now, since we now know that God is Reason, what could an atheist say that would be any more in line with the teachings of Scripture than that!?

I submit that in fact there is nothing an atheist or anyone else could say that would be more in line with the teaching a Scripture and that, in fact, we can find the answer to the confusion surrounding the morality of God in the fact the God is Logic. Morality is not simply defined by God's character as many Christians suppose, but rather that which is moral is so because it is rational, which, if you are following the line of thinking in this essay properly, you'll understand is the equivalent of saying that what is moral is so because it is God like. To say that God is moral, is not to say that God has a list of rules that He must follow but simply that God is Life and that He is consistent with Himself and therefore acts in way which is proper to Life. Thus, to say that God is moral is to say that God is rational. An amoral (non-moral) God would be non-rational and therefore non-personal, non-relational, non-thinking, non-living, non-real!

God is real! Therefore, God is rational, therefore God is moral!

Clete Pfeiffer
3/24/2012
The scriptures also tell us God is Love, Light and Spirit! When you interchange love with God you have a clearer understanding of the all encompassing Creator which can not be put in a box. He also has created a righteous system where according to your heart, the center of your being, you have manifesting results which are created, (remember, we are made in the image of God) bringing good or what we call, bad, fruit! We are instructed to fear not and have faith for a reason; then we may overcome the world, our spiritual work occurring in the unseen and not the seen! Jesus, was literally the Word incarnate, as stated in John, in the beginning the Word was, your point reveals why he was One with the Creator, the very power of God filling him to overflowing as witnessed in the Transfiguration. Really, the awesome wonder of it all is quite overwhelming for us to rap our mind around but the Spirit assists us with this endeavor bringing Light! Glory to God!
 
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Clete

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In principle God doesn't have to conform with our standards, such as morality.
How do you know that morality is "our standard"? Where do we find this human standard of morality that God isn't subject too and what sort of morality is it?

However Jesus' view is that we love people and treat them well as a response to God's love and treatment of us. So I believe that our morality has to agree reasonably with the principles that God follows. He may do something that seems wrong because he knows something that we don't. But in general he should act morally.
Okay but how would you know whether He had or not?

I realize there are examples from the Bible where he didn't.
He didn't what, act morally?

I doubt that you could establish this claim but would be interested in reading any attempt you might care to make. Just what is it that you think God has done that is immoral?

In a few cases this may be because he knew something we don't. But I think the early Israelites didn't fully understand God, and attributed actions to him that he didn't actually approve of (if in fact those passages are historical at all).
I can only guess here because you didn't elaborate but I assume that you are referring to episodes where God commanded that the Israelites kill entire populations of people during the wars they fought to secure the land promised to Abraham. If that assumption is correct then....

First, our lives belong to God. Whether we are saved or not, every breath we take is at God's discretion and it is not murder for Him to end our physical lives whenever He sees fit to do so. It is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment. We are promised a physical death and then justice nothing more, nothing less.

Second, as you say, God is privy to much more information than we have and has plans of His own that we are neither aware nor is He required to inform us of. If the physical death of a particular population is necessary for the achievement of these goals then we are in no place to judge the matter due to a lack of both knowledge and wisdom.

There's more to say but I'm out of time for this morning and that's enough for now anyway.

Clete
 
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Hawkins

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God sets the standard of morality. God is more moral than us. Though there could be a fundamental difference between the morality of God and that of men. Men's morality is based off whether an innocent is harmed. It is first a judgment of the past. By our morality we can't say that Hitler is evil when he's still 16 years old, but God can tell.

The second difference is that God's morality, unlike that of men, is based off whether a soul is saved (i.e., in terms of eternity). So it is one of God's job to kill those otherwise would cause more soul loss, such as the Canaanites. This is one of the many reasons why God needs a people (i.e., ancient Israel) to do the job.

Humans consider God being not moral in killing the Canaanites not because humans are more moral, it's because humans lack the understanding of how God being more moral!
 
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Neogaia777

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I think the OT was a dark period of time and was to show us "our own ways", man's ways, etc, so that they could be completed and so that we could come to their finish or the end of it/them or ourselves as soon as possible after the fall, etc, and that they ended, and the ways were changed after Christ, or in and with Christ when He came, etc, and after that was another newer way, etc, a much better way, etc, but the other way had to come first and be exposed and be made known and brought to it's full failing conclusion first to prepare the way for Christ, etc, to have a thing that could be fully realized that we needed to be saved from, or needed a savior for, etc, which was our own ways that didn't work and were destined to end up in failure, in order to prepare the way for Christ and the New Covenant ways, for which the other ways had to come first and be made known first for that to happen only afterwards, etc, and could only come and happen only afterwards, and only after that period of time and those ways were first brought to their full conclusion first, which took some "time" first, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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