The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

Bible Highlighter · Jan 5, 2020

jahel said:
It’s also perdition vs rewards and loss thereof.

This is a vague statement. What are you referring to?
What kind of sins, and do they have to be confessed and forsaken?

Chris V++ · Jan 5, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
It's why Scripture says to work out your salvation with FEAR and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear? Again, your belief has to re-write the plain and simple meaning of these truths in Scripture (Because they do not agree with a more comfortable theology that has been taught by the masses).

Thanks again. I see what you are saying, but I don't find myself stealing or cheating because I already do fear God. I'm not trying to write the fear of the Lord out of anything. OSAS may be naive, but if it is false, it does not follow either that BAC who believe in OSAS don't fear God, or repent and confess their sins and seek restoration.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 5, 2020

Kenny'sID said:
I know, the quote was for Hatguy

My point was if that was part of the formula you just mentioned then that formula falls apart because God doesn't expect perfection and no one I know teaches he does.

If I'm wrong, will you please show me who teaches God expects perfection? See that is just another deception Hatguy is presenting because without the deceit, he would have to just stop arguing...it's all OSAS has to work with to defends their way.

Or maybe HatGuy can backup his comment there on God or preachers expectation of perfection?

Yes, I do not believe Sinless Perfection is a salvation issue. I believe we have to meet the bare level minimum requirement for holy living, which is to overcome (and or put away in time) grievous sin out of our lives with the help of God and by His grace and mercy and power. I do not believe all sins condemn a person. But the Bible does make clear those sins that do condemn us (like murder, hate, adultery, theft, coveting, idolatry, lying, etc.). Faults of character (like not listening all that well in every instance), and or not taking out the trash on time, or going over the speed limit a little on the highway are not sins that lead to spiritual death (in my view).

Bible Highlighter · Jan 5, 2020

Chris V++ said:
Thanks again. I see what you are saying, but I don't find myself stealing or cheating because I already do fear God. I'm not trying to write the fear of the Lord out of anything. OSAS may be naive, but if it is false, it does not follow either that BAC who believe in OSAS don't fear God, or repent and confess their sins and seek restoration.

Again, there is no need to fear God if they think their salvation is secured in the fact that their future sin is forgiven them. Unbelievers go through trials in life. So the idea of chastening by bad things happening in a believer's life is not really all that much of reason to fear God. Only the fear of the punishment of hell is an effective deterrent. Jesus said, do not fear the one who can kill the body, but fear the One who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (See: Matthew 10:28).

Kenny'sID · Jan 5, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Yes, I do not believe Sinless Perfection is a salvation issue. I believe we have to meet the bare level minimum requirement for holy living, which is to overcome (and or put away in time) grievous sin out of our lives with the help of God and by His grace and mercy and power. I do not believe all sins condemn a person. But the Bible does make clear those sins that do condemn us (like murder, hate, adultery, theft, coveting, idolatry, lying, etc.). Faults of character (like not listening all that well in every instance), and or not taking out the trash on time, or going over the speed limit a little on the highway are not sins that lead to spiritual death (in my view).

I don't disagree with any of that, and it would be good that others would read it...more than once.

timothyu · Jan 5, 2020

Regarding sin God made it simple. Always put His will before our own and His will is we love all as self. That covers whatever sins man labels.

Chris V++ · Jan 5, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Again, there is no need to fear God if they think their salvation is secured in the fact that their future sin is forgiven them. Unbelievers go through trials in life. So the idea of chastening by bad things happening in a believer's life is not really all that much of reason to fear God. Only the fear of the punishment of hell is an effective deterrent. Jesus said, do not fear the one who can kill the body, but fear the One who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (See: Matthew 10:28).

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I ve never heard preaching against the need to confess future sins to God once committed. I've heard alot of the opposite in fact, like 'the second you realize you've sinned confess. ' But do you think God finely tunes a Christian conscience,and gives us a desire to please the Lord out of more than just a fear of hell for non compliance? (not that the prospect of hell isn't terrifying) Are you only motivated to do what is right so as to avoid hell?

*edited for clarity

bobsmename · Jan 5, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
You cannot confess of sin to be forgiven of sin if future sin is forgiven a person. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. The problem today is that Christians are not reading and believing this verse and many others.

Also, the Law that Paul talks about is the 613 laws of Moses as a whole or contract. Acts of the Apostles 13:39 says we are not justified by the Law of Moses. Paul never speaks against the keeping of the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2), or the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25), or the Command to Believe on Jesus and love one another (1 John 3:23). In other words, there is a huge difference between Old Testament Law (the 613 laws of Moses), vs. New Testament Law (Laws that come from Jesus and His followers).

In the book of Romans, Galatians, and Corinthians: Every time you see the word "law" or "works," just look at the surrounding context and you will see that it is in reference to the "Law of Moses" which ended with Christ's sacrifice. For the temple veil was torn from top to bottom at the cross, letting us know that the Law had ended. For if the laws on animal sacrifices and the priesthood ended with the temple veil being torn, then it is logical to assume that the whole of the Old Law is no more. In fact, that is what Hebrews 8:13 says. Jesus said at the Lord's supper (before His crucifixion) to His disciples that the Old was going to soon disappear (And it did with His death).

We are under a New Covenant with New Commands.

Paul was arguing for the necessity of the process of salvation called: "Justification" (which is a process of salvation that is without the deeds of the Law because it is based on God's mercy and forgiveness). This does not mean that there is not another step or stage in the salvation process after one is saved by God's grace. I believe this next step after Justification is Sanctification. One has to look at the whole counsel of God's Word to get a more fuller picture of salvation. But most are satisfied to just listen to their Pastor and for him to spoon feed them. They do not study God's Word on their own in prayer and just read and believe the plain text. They seek to change what the Bible plainly says. For example: Philippians 2:12 says work out your salvation with fear and trembling. This is obviously talking about fear because why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear? But men who want to justify sin on some level will say that "fear" does not mean "fear" and they will seek to change that word because they don't like it. So they say future sin is forgiven a person (Thereby leading people to treat God's grace as a license to sin on some level). For one does not have to practice sin in order to be condemned by that sin. One can think they can occasionally sin and not worry about confessing it to the Lord and think they are saved by thinking all their future sin is forgiven them (as long as they are not doing the really bad stuff like murdering all the time, or committing armed robbery, or being a inappropriate content star, etc.). Unfortunately, they do not need to worry about the other kinds of sins that Jesus said will destroy them. They do not heed the warnings of Jesus about how certain other sins can destroy their soul as Jesus warned us in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, and Matthew 25:31-46. Why do they not care? Because their future sin is forgiven them. Thus, they have a license.

The law Paul talks about includes the Ten Commandments.
If you are not justified by obeying law, that does not mean you are free to ignore such law. From what you wrote it appears that is what you think(sorry if I misunderstood you)

Do you believe keeping Christ's law/commands justifies you? I very much doubt you even try to obey all of Christ's literal commands. I have never met any christian who has.
If I asked my parents to forgive me when I broke their rules as a child, I knew they would do so. My place in their family was not threatened until I sought forgiveness for breaking their rules.
I will repeat. No truly born again Christian can possibly use grace/Christ dying for your sins as a licence to sin, such licence was removed under the terms of the new covenant. You seem to be ignoring, or failing to understand that

timothyu · Jan 5, 2020

People by nature want to be seen as being good even when they are doing evil.

bobsmename · Jan 5, 2020

Beware of people who tell you, you must obey the law to be justified/righteous in God's sight. Whether that law be without definition/the ten commandments/Christ's literal commands etc. In my experience, people who insist upon this have mostly hardened hearts, they simply seek to excuse breaking the law themselves with little or no contrition. The bible states the Ten commandments are the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation. And you will never obey Christ's law by focusing on, and striving to obey each and every literal command of Christ. I have never, in over forty years met any Christian who has even tried to obey each and every literal command of Christ, but many will quote scripture to state you must obey these commands to prove you love Jesus.
Of course, in biblical times there were those, insincere people who sought to abuse grace(Jude4) But make no mistake, the vast majority who willingly accept that Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness(Romans10:4) do so because their hearts are not hardened. They cannot excuse their shortcomings/sin, nor do they attempt to do so. And these are the only ones who from their hearts can give God all the glory, and that is what God wants, for he will share his glory with no man, or woman.

bobsmename · Jan 5, 2020

There is no justification in partially obeying the law. Perfectly obey it or stand guilty before it:

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. James2:10

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith Gal3:10&11
For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless," 15 because the law brings wrath Rom4:14&15

Bible Highlighter · Jan 5, 2020

Chris V++ said:
I'm not disagreeing with you, but I ve never heard preaching against the need to confess future sins to God once committed. I've heard alot of the opposite in fact, like 'the second you realize you've sinned confess. ' But do you think God finely tunes a Christian conscience,and gives us a desire to please the Lord out of more than just a fear of hell for non compliance? (not that the prospect of hell isn't terrifying) Are you only motivated to do what is right so as to avoid hell?

*edited for clarity

Ask your church or neighborhood churches if they lose salvation if they sin. They will say... “no,” which means they can commit grievous sin on some small level and still be saved. Again, many teach suicide is not a sin that condemns a person, etc.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 5, 2020

bobsmename said:
The law Paul talks about includes the Ten Commandments.
If you are not justified by obeying law, that does not mean you are free to ignore such law. From what you wrote it appears that is what you think(sorry if I misunderstood you)

Yes, but the Ten Commandments do not exist technically speaking because the Saturday Sabbath command is never repeated as a command given to us by either Jesus or His followers and none of the moral laws out of the 10 (Like: Do not murder, do not commit adultery, etc.) are no longer attached with death penalties. For example: Jesus said to the Jews who caught the woman in the act of adultery to only cast stones if they were without sin. Meaning, the Law has changed.

This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

You said:
Do you believe keeping Christ's law/commands justifies you?

So you are not justified by keeping the law or command in 1 John 3:23 that says that we are to believe in Jesus? What about the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus? (See: Romans 8:2). Keeping this law makes us free from the law of sin and death. The “law of sin and death” is the 613 laws of Moses.

You said:
I very much doubt you even try to obey all of Christ's literal commands. I have never met any christian who has.

This is because we are living in the last days where folks have a form of godliness but they deny the power thereof. Jesus says, “When the Son of Man returns, will he find faith in the Earth?” His commands are a part of the faith.

Chris V++ · Jan 5, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Ask your church or neighborhood churches if they lose salvation if they sin. They will say... “no,” which means they can commit grievous sin on some small level and still be saved. Again, many teach suicide is not a sin that condemns a person, etc.

So supposed a person became born again, then joined an eternal security church ( Baptist for example) and was baptized in that church, and believed as you say, but still confessed their sins anyway and tried to do good deeds. Is that hypothetical person dies with no unconfessed grievous sins, is that person still saved, even if he or she believes in (or is undecided) about eternal security? And if that person has a change in thinking and decides eternal security is false, can that person still attend that Baptist church, or should he or she attend elsewhere?

Bible Highlighter · Jan 5, 2020

bobsmename said:
There is no justification in partially obeying the law. Perfectly obey it or stand guilty before it:

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. James2:10

You are misquoting James 2:10 out of its context. The point James was making was not that we are helpless to keep all of God’s laws, his point was that if a believer breaks the Royal law of love by not loving their brother in giving favor to the rich brethren and showing no favor to the poor brethren (James 2:1-9) then their faith is like that of demons (James 2:19) with no visible fruit that one has a genuine faith (James 2:18). For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Breaking the Royal law of loving your neighbor (your brother) is the reference to “if you break one law in one point, you break them all.” James is referring to the Royal Law of love (i.e. the work of love that shows one loving faith towards the Savior). The offend in one point is in reference to the breaking of the law of loving your brother or neighbor (and not just any law).

You said:
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith Gal3:10&11
For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless," 15 because the law brings wrath Rom4:14&15

Again, you misquote these passages out of context to refer to all forms of Law when these passages are clearly referring to the Old Law or the Laws of Moses.

Galatians 3:17 says,

“And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.” (Galatians 3:17).

Which Law came 430 years after the promise given to Abraham?

The Law of Moses or the Law of Christ?

This would be the Law of Moses.

Romans 4:14-15 is also referring to the Law of Moses. Romans 3:1 mentions what profit is there in circumcision and what advantage does the Jew have? Circumcision is of the Law of Moses. The Jewish religion follows the Law of Moses.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 5, 2020

Chris V++ said:
So supposed a person became born again, then joined an eternal security church ( Baptist for example) and was baptized in that church, and believed as you say, but still confessed their sins anyway and tried to do good deeds. Is that hypothetical person dies with no unconfessed grievous sins, is that person still saved, even if he or she believes in (or is undecided) about eternal security? And if that person has a change in thinking and decides eternal security is false, can that person still attend that Baptist church, or should he or she attend elsewhere?

I think if they believe they cannot lose salvation by sin, they will undoubtedly think they can sin and still be saved on some level. The inherent problem of Eternal Security leads to this conclusion. It is a denial of what Scripture teaches over and over in many places. There is no need to work out one’s salvation with fear and trembling if they don’t actually believe Philippians 2:12 says that. We cannot reject whole swafs of Scripture and claim we believe in Scripture.

I believe God gives believers opportunities to come out of Eternal Security and or Belief Alone-ism. If they don’t want to listen, that is their choice.

Chris V++ · Jan 5, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I believe God gives believers opportunities to come out of Eternal Security and or Belief Alone-ism. If they don’t want to listen, that is their choice.

So what does this look like in real life? For the former Baptist, for example, coming out of ES and Belief alone-ism implies finding a different church. What specific church or churches are better alternatives?

Bible Highlighter · Jan 5, 2020

Chris V++ said:
So what does this look like in real life? For the former Baptist, for example, coming out of ES and Belief alone-ism implies finding a different church. What specific church or churches are better alternatives?

Your thinking that the traditional church is the normal way of doing things; It is not. Check out these threads here:

The Pastor King (New)

Gods Order in the body of Christ

bobsmename · Jan 5, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Yes, but the Ten Commandments do not exist technically speaking because the Saturday Sabbath command is never repeated as a command given to us by either Jesus or His followers and none of the moral laws out of the 10 (Like: Do not murder, do not commit adultery, etc.) are no longer attached with death penalties. For example: Jesus said to the Jews who caught the woman in the act of adultery to only cast stones if they were without sin. Meaning, the Law has changed.

This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

So you are not justified by keeping the law or command in 1 John 3:23 that says that we are to believe in Jesus? What about the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus? (See: Romans 8:2). Keeping this law makes us free from the law of sin and death. The “law of sin and death” is the 613 laws of Moses.

This is because we are living in the last days where folks have a form of godliness but they deny the power thereof. Jesus says, “When the Son of Man returns, will he find faith in the Earth?” His commands are a part of the faith.

So you claim not to invite friends or family home for a meal but rather the poor, lame, blind and beggars so you may receive your reward in Heaven for doing so?
If someone stole something of yours, you would gladly give them more than what they stole with nothing but love in your heart for them?
You truly in your heart love all your enemies, without slip, those who may persecute you, lie ab out you, or be unkind to you in anyway?
You leap for joy if you are persecuted?
If you have ever fasted you have not so much as hinted to anyone you are fasting?
If anyone wanted to borrow from you, you would give to them without ever expecting anything back?

You see, you just quote words and tell others how they should/must live, but it has nothing to do with the reality of your own life does it.
Matt7:2 is good to remember

bobsmename · Jan 5, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
You are misquoting James 2:10 out of its context. The point James was making was not that we are helpless to keep all of God’s laws, his point was that if a believer breaks the Royal law of love by not loving their brother in giving favor to the rich brethren and showing no favor to the poor brethren (James 2:1-9) then their faith is like that of demons (James 2:19) with no visible fruit that one has a genuine faith (James 2:18). For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Breaking the Royal law of loving your neighbor (your brother) is the reference to “if you break one law in one point, you break them all.” James is referring to the Royal Law of love (i.e. the work of love that shows one loving faith towards the Savior). The offend in one point is in reference to the breaking of the law of loving your brother or neighbor (and not just any law).

Again, you misquote these passages out of context to refer to all forms of Law when these passages are clearly referring to the Old Law or the Laws of Moses.

Galatians 3:17 says,

“And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.” (Galatians 3:17).

Which Law came 430 years after the promise given to Abraham?

The Law of Moses or the Law of Christ?

This would be the Law of Moses.

Romans 4:14-15 is also referring to the Law of Moses. Romans 3:1 mentions what profit is there in circumcision and what advantage does the Jew have? Circumcision is of the Law of Moses. The Jewish religion follows the Law of Moses.

Gal3:10-11 was not misquoted at all, it referred to the moral law of the ten commandments, nine of which are applicable today as written. The legalistic law, as you should know could be faultlessly obeyed, people who did not know God(according to Christ could faultlessly obey that law as could Saul the Pharisee. The problem was always the moral law. That has never been faultlessly obeyed, and if you want to be justified by law you have to faultlessly obey # it as Paul and James clearly tell us.

It amazes ,me that many can just excuse the sin they do have as sin that is not that important whilst they still believe they will attain heaven because they have obeyed the law.

The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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