You did not chose Me, I chose you.

Hammster

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And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
— Ephesians 2:1-6
 
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Hammster

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The reason Paul was hard to understand was that he preached grace in an age of legalism. People want to think that they in some way contribute to their salvation by being good. Paul was clear that we are never good enough, through we are being conformed.

Some on here sound like the rich young ruler, except instead of keeping laws since their youth, they think they’ve kept them since they were converted.

They also must ignore the fact that they guilty of sins of omission and convince themselves that they are 100% obedient to every command of Christ.

Please don’t fall for it. Understand that if you are in Christ, you are not under condemnation. You are free from the burden of trying. Instead, you get to be obedient out of love for Him that saved you, and when you sin, your Father will be there to forgive you. Christ will wash your feet. The Good Shepherd will watch over you and keep you safe.
 
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Der Alte

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I realize that list is of your own making. I have seen it repeatedly when you respond regarding this subject which is why I wrote copied and pasted. I have refuted several of your proof texts but you refuse to acknowledge that and instead persist in your own belief which of course is your prerogative.
This made me laugh. Refuting what I say requires more than just someone saying, or quoting from some scholar/version which states "Aionios in that verse does not mean eternal, it really means age-during.[or some other nonsensical word."
Refuting my post requires credible, verifiable, historical, lexical, grammatical etc. evidence.
Here is one of your so-called refutations.

Paul warned the brethren in Rome in Rom 8:13 "For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Paul warned the brethren that if they live a lifestyle of fleshly living, they will die. The word "die" in this verse cannot refer to physical death because every single person dies physically no matter what kind of lifestyle they lived. Thus Paul's warning of chronic, unrepentant sin applies to spiritual death which means to perish in an infinite period.
[Link]
Am I a bad person because I don't believe in eternal hell?
Please explain to me how this refutes any verse which I posted?


 
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Oldmantook

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This made me laugh. Refuting what I say requires more than just someone saying, or quoting from some scholar/version which states "Aionios in that verse does not mean eternal, it really means age-during.[or some other nonsensical word."
Refuting my post requires credible, verifiable, historical, lexical, grammatical etc. evidence.
Here is one of your so-called refutations.

Paul warned the brethren in Rome in Rom 8:13 "For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Paul warned the brethren that if they live a lifestyle of fleshly living, they will die. The word "die" in this verse cannot refer to physical death because every single person dies physically no matter what kind of lifestyle they lived. Thus Paul's warning of chronic, unrepentant sin applies to spiritual death which means to perish in an infinite period.
[Link]
Am I a bad person because I don't believe in eternal hell?
Please explain to me how this refutes any verse which I posted?

While you're laughing, allow me to enlighten you. Why do you presuppose that aiōnion means forever? When the rich young ruler asked Jesus what he must do to inherit ETERNAL life, what did Jesus say? It's always best to let Jesus define "eternal" life instead of believing in your man-made teachings. In the gospel passages, Jesus in teaching his disciples equated eternal life with the kingdom of God.
In Matt 19 Jesus stated 23And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” 27Then Peter said in reply, “See, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?” 28Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

In these verses, Jesus himself equates eternal life with the kingdom of God/kingdom of heaven. So ask yourself, how would the rich young man and the disciples, all of whom were Jews understand what Jesus meant by the kingdom of God/heaven? You well know that the Jews at that time were still anticipating the arrival of their Messiah - not as a Lamb - but as a conquering king who would vanquish their enemies and establish an AGE of peace where Jesus would rule from his throne on the earth as this passage states. So when the rich young man asked Jesus about eternal life, he was not referring to life "forever" but life in the kingdom of God meaning the Millennial Kingdom - an age of limited duration - not forever. Thus your claim that eternal life must mean forever is contradicted by Jesus' own teaching in the gospels. Aiōnion means "age-during" which is what I have claimed all along. You can continue believing what you will. I prefer to believe Jesus' own words.

Furthermore, I am curious as to why you did not include Matt 25:46 in your famous list? After all, aiōnion occurs not once but twice there pertaining to both punishment and to life. Care to venture an answer?
 
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CharismaticLady

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Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
— Romans 8:1

You only quoted half the verse. The condition for that being true is the last half of the verse.
 
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I preach the grace that Paul preached, not the a legalism that you proclaim.

Hammster I am curious if you believe the same as Mark Q does. Here is what he recently posted.

"What then? Shall we sin, that grace may abound?" (No, but we do and it does!)
"If we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to have already forgiven us our sin."

Is that how you also read 1 John 1:9?
 
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CharismaticLady

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@Hammster how about this one?

The regenerated are indeed sinless in the sight of God, because they are already forgiven --not because they no longer sin, even with sins of outright rebellion.
 
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Der Alte

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<OM>
While you're laughing, allow me to enlighten you. Why do you presuppose that aiōnion means forever? When the rich young ruler asked Jesus what he must do to inherit ETERNAL life, what did Jesus say? It's always best to let Jesus define "eternal" life instead of believing in your man-made teachings. In the gospel passages, Jesus in teaching his disciples equated eternal life with the kingdom of God.
In Matt 19 Jesus stated
23And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” 27Then Peter said in reply, “See, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?” 28Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and the last first.
In these verses, Jesus himself equates eternal life with the kingdom of God/kingdom of heaven. So ask yourself, how would the rich young man and the disciples, all of whom were Jews understand what Jesus meant by the kingdom of God/heaven? You well know that the Jews at that time were still anticipating the arrival of their Messiah - not as a Lamb - but as a conquering king who would vanquish their enemies and establish an AGE of peace where Jesus would rule from his throne on the earth as this passage states. So when the rich young man asked Jesus about eternal life, he was not referring to life "forever" but life in the kingdom of God meaning the Millennial Kingdom - an age of limited duration - not forever. Thus your claim that eternal life must mean forever is contradicted by Jesus' own teaching in the gospels. Aiōnion means "age-during" which is what I have claimed all along. You can continue believing what you will. I prefer to believe Jesus' own words.
Furthermore, I am curious as to why you did not include Matt 25:46 in your famous list? After all, aiōnion occurs not once but twice there pertaining to both punishment and to life. Care to venture an answer?
<OM>
How does this presumptive interpretation refute anything I said? Where does this passage say anything about "the Millennial Kingdom - an age of limited duration - not forever.?"
How does Jesus equating "aionios" life with the kingdom of God prove that "aionios" does not mean eternal?
Look at what you have done, you totally ignored my post where I cited 24 verses and you quote this one passage back at me.
From my post which you ignored. How long is Jesus' kingdom in this verse?

Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/telos]
In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here clearly means eternal.
.....As for Matthew 25:46 neither occurrence of "aionios" defines or describes "aionios." It simply says that "life" and "punishment" are "aionios."
The absence of this verse from my list does not affect my conclusions in any way.
.....You said, "It's always best to let Jesus define "eternal" life instead of believing in your man-made teachings. In the gospel passages, Jesus in teaching his disciples equated eternal life with the kingdom of God." So let us do just that.
Here are 4 verses, of the 10 verses, spoken by Jesus in my list, where Jesus clearly defines "aionios" as eternal.

John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.
John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “Aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In these 2 verses Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. In a finite period believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
 
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Hammster

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Hammster I am curious if you believe the same as Mark Q does. Here is what he recently posted.



Is that how you also read 1 John 1:9?
Then He poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded. So He came to Simon Peter. He said to Him, “Lord, do You wash my feet?” Jesus answered and said to him, “What I do you do not realize now, but you will understand hereafter.” Peter said to Him, “Never shall You wash my feet!” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.” Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head.” Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.”
— John 13:5-10
 
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Hammster

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@Hammster how about this one?
Sinless? No.


“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
“Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
— Romans 4:7-8
 
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Oldmantook

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<OM>
While you're laughing, allow me to enlighten you. Why do you presuppose that aiōnion means forever? When the rich young ruler asked Jesus what he must do to inherit ETERNAL life, what did Jesus say? It's always best to let Jesus define "eternal" life instead of believing in your man-made teachings. In the gospel passages, Jesus in teaching his disciples equated eternal life with the kingdom of God.
In Matt 19 Jesus stated
23And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” 27Then Peter said in reply, “See, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?” 28Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and the last first.
In these verses, Jesus himself equates eternal life with the kingdom of God/kingdom of heaven. So ask yourself, how would the rich young man and the disciples, all of whom were Jews understand what Jesus meant by the kingdom of God/heaven? You well know that the Jews at that time were still anticipating the arrival of their Messiah - not as a Lamb - but as a conquering king who would vanquish their enemies and establish an AGE of peace where Jesus would rule from his throne on the earth as this passage states. So when the rich young man asked Jesus about eternal life, he was not referring to life "forever" but life in the kingdom of God meaning the Millennial Kingdom - an age of limited duration - not forever. Thus your claim that eternal life must mean forever is contradicted by Jesus' own teaching in the gospels. Aiōnion means "age-during" which is what I have claimed all along. You can continue believing what you will. I prefer to believe Jesus' own words.
Furthermore, I am curious as to why you did not include Matt 25:46 in your famous list? After all, aiōnion occurs not once but twice there pertaining to both punishment and to life. Care to venture an answer?
<OM>
How does this presumptive interpretation refute anything I said? Where does this passage say anything about "the Millennial Kingdom - an age of limited duration - not forever.?"
How does Jesus equating "aionios" life with the kingdom of God prove that "aionios" does not mean eternal?
Look at what you have done, you totally ignored my post where I cited 24 verses and you quote this one passage back at me.
From my post which you ignored. How long is Jesus' kingdom in this verse?

Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/telos]
In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here clearly means eternal.
.....As for Matthew 25:46 neither occurrence of "aionios" defines or describes "aionios."
It simply says that "life" and "punishment" are "aionios."
The absence of this verse from my list does not affect my conclusions in any way.
.....You said, "It's always best to let Jesus define "eternal" life instead of believing in your man-made teachings. In the gospel passages, Jesus in teaching his disciples equated eternal life with the kingdom of God." So let us do just that.
Here are 4 verses of the 10 verses spoken by Jesus in my list, where Jesus clearly defines "aionios" as eternal.

John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.
John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “Aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In these 2 verses Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. In a finite period believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
I find it amusing how you take great pains to avoid dealing with the text itself. You continue your logical fallacy by complaining that the text itself does not mention the Millennial kingdom which is an argument from silence (the weakest form of argumentation). That is indeed true as the word millennium is absent from the text but at the same time you totally ignore whom Jesus' audience was. Jesus was speaking to his fellow Jews who expected their Messiah to rule on earth for an age of time - not for eternity. Thus although the term itself is not included in the text one can, based on Jesus' audience conclude that they were referencing the Millennium. Do you deny that the Jews were expecting the Messiah to rule on earth for an AGE of time? Yes or no? Thus aionion life means life during the Millennial Age not life that is eternal. That is the context that you fail to account for or even attempt to explain away. All scripture must fit into your doctrine; not just the ones that happen to be convenient for you.

Your attempt to explain Matt 25:46 is feeble. Of course aionios is in the verse! That is why I pointed it out to you. You have boasted all along that aionios always means eternal and cannot refer to a finite age of time. This verse destroys your notion because in proper context Jesus is addressing those who are still alive at his return - goat and sheep nations. At this time, Jesus judges the sheep and the goats. He praises the sheep and welcomes them into the kingdom (v.34) These are the people who will populate the Millennial kingdom during the 1,000 years - not for eternity. Likewise, the goats are condemned to the lake of fire for an aionios time - also 1,0000 years. Thus your contention that aionios means eternal simply does not fit with the context of this passage.

Your interpretation of Lk 1:33 is also deficient for the following reason. Are you not aware that Jesus does not reign forever?? Jesus does not reign forever because at the end of the age he subjects himself to the Father and delivers the kingdom to the Father.
1 Cor 15:24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. NASB
Thus Lk 1:33 cannot be referring to Jesus as having an "eternal" kingdom.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Hammster I am curious if you believe the same as Mark Q does. Here is what he recently posted.



Is that how you also read 1 John 1:9?

("If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to have already forgiven us our sin....")
My father (who is a formidable Greek scholar), says that it is implied by the Greek tenses of the verse. Actually, there is more to it than that. Also, the forgiveness is conditional on the confession, though if we confess, the forgiveness is already done.

You once asked also, the same sort of trap-sounding question, though awkwardly stated, "is that what Reformed Doctrine(?) believes?" I don't suppose it makes much sense that Reformed Doctrine, or Theology, believes anything. I'm guessing you meant those who hold to Reformed Theology....? Anyhow, Reformed Theology teaches everything proceeds from and is dependent on Sovereign God. Humanity in particular has no integrity, worth or even existence on its own. And somehow, that is interpreted by others that Reformed Doctrine therefore denies actual, real, choice. We are real because of God, and for God's own purposes, and only according to God's assessment --not ours.
 
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I quoted the whole thing.

You like the modern versions from codices that deleted words, and even whole verses. They assume erroneously that the KJV added words and verses, but that has been discovered to be false. The correct quoting of the verse is:

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
 
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CharismaticLady

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Sinless? No.


“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
“Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
— Romans 4:7-8

This is why you don't understand Paul and have twisted his teaching.
 
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CharismaticLady

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("If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to have already forgiven us our sin....")
My father (who is a formidable Greek scholar), says that it is implied by the Greek tenses of the verse. Actually, there is more to it than that. Also, the forgiveness is conditional on the confession, though if we confess, the forgiveness is already done.

You once asked also, the same sort of trap-sounding question, though awkwardly stated, "is that what Reformed Doctrine(?) believes?" I don't suppose it makes much sense that Reformed Doctrine, or Theology, believes anything. I'm guessing you meant those who hold to Reformed Theology....? Anyhow, Reformed Theology teaches everything proceeds from and is dependent on Sovereign God. Humanity in particular has no integrity, worth or even existence on its own. And somehow, that is interpreted by others that Reformed Doctrine therefore denies actual, real, choice. We are real because of God, and for God's own purposes, and only according to God's assessment --not ours.

So is it only the sins you know about that you can confess?
 
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Mark Quayle

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So is it only the sins you know about that you can confess?
Haha. Do you know of any others? No, actually, in some rote prayers, the unknown sins are also mentioned, and generic prayers concerning generic attitude of self-reliance vs relying on God, for example.

I confess to occasional turning myself toward my own desires that (at least to my conscience) oppose God. That, to me at that point, is sin. Whether it actually is, is for God to judge. My deeds are not all that is sin, but the reason for those deeds.

Thank God that he is judge, and is greater than my conscience. I keep hearing that sin is deeds, as though we can decree that this or that is of itself sin. In Sunday School there is discussion whether this or that is wrong or right to do, as if keeping what we know to be right or wrong is all that matters. What about our reasons for doing so?

Do we honestly think we live up to sinlessness? Be honest. You make a big deal of intentional vs unintentional sins, as if it is all about sins. What about sin? Do you deny the Bible's teaching about the "old man" at work in us, that we must be continually putting to death?
 
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