The KJVO myth...

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I notice one "Bible Highlighter" tried to defend the KJVO myth with some 40-yr. old stuff that's been long-refuted.

Does he, or any other KJVO have anything new ? Far as I'm concerned, the KJVO myth is just that-a MAN-MADE MYTH -& is phony as a Ford Corvette!

One question for KJVOs-

WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR THE KJVO MYTH ?
Without Scriptural support, no doctrine of faith/worship can be true.

I'm asking RESPECTFULLY; no flaming or word war intended. I just want to see some ACTUAL JUSTIFICATION for the KJVO myth.

The KJV is formatted based on the Masoretic text which was written to intentionally alter certain genealogies in an effort to falsely attribute the identity of Melchizedek to Shem, son of Noah. Doing this allows anti-Christian Jewish scholars to deny Jesus as our high priest by “proving” Melchizedek was in the priestly lineage but not Jesus. That, by itself, invalidates the KJV as authoritative.
 
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Der Alte

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The KJV is formatted based on the Masoretic text which was written to intentionally alter certain genealogies in an effort to falsely attribute the identity of Melchizedek to Shem, son of Noah. Doing this allows anti-Christian Jewish scholars to deny Jesus as our high priest by “proving” Melchizedek was in the priestly lineage but not Jesus. That, by itself, invalidates the KJV as authoritative.
Only if what you said about the MT is factual and can be supported with credible, verifiable, historical evidence. Do you have any of that?
 
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createdtoworship

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The KJV is formatted based on the Masoretic text which was written to intentionally alter certain genealogies in an effort to falsely attribute the identity of Melchizedek to Shem, son of Noah. Doing this allows anti-Christian Jewish scholars to deny Jesus as our high priest by “proving” Melchizedek was in the priestly lineage but not Jesus. That, by itself, invalidates the KJV as authoritative.
Don't modern translations use massoretic?
 
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createdtoworship

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King James Bible 2016

You could try that, an Australian revision.
Thanks I will check it out. Does it have a list of scholars who worked on it or translated it? If it's just one guy on his office computer it may not be that good of quality.
 
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createdtoworship

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King James Bible 2016

You could try that, an Australian revision.
Sorry it took awhile to find my link list, here is a clip from another thread but it has some good links:

"
Codex Vaticanus contains 7,579 changes from Textus Receptus

Codex sinaiticus has half leaves missing because they were burning them to keep warm when they found them. It has 9000 changes from Textus receptus.

The above two differ in the gospels over 3000 times with each other.

The condition of the manuscripts are beautiful compared to others of this age and. Makes them highly suspicious.

The evidence of the papyrus manuscripts of the 20th century were not available for the Greek text of Westcott and hort. The papyri evidence is much older than these two, and by and large supports the textus receptus.

NIV uses an alternate type of translation process called dynamic equivalent. So it is not a literal translation on purpose and changes thousand of times from a liter translation.

I would not attack a text behind modern translations if that was all we had. Why would I shoot myself in the foot like that. but we do have modern texts that are more complete than the alleged older texts, like I said that appear white and newer than they should. (indicating potential forgery), but at least read a little bit of the defense of the text behind the majority text....
here is an analysis on the priority of the byzantine over the modern texts source (alexandrian):
The Byzantine Priority Hypothesis


and some other translations that are not archaic like the KJV but still based on majority text: There is a huge need for a fully updated majority text tradition translation, many many people have undergone this task, and here are some of them. Some are better than others: And again I believe the NKJV is also a good text, but it needs an updated revision as well. Maybe undo some of the unnecessary changes.
(some links criticize some majority text translations, others support them, this is my list of links, they are unsorted and for your analysis and feedback as you have time). I actually like the literal aspect of the KJV and NKJV, over some of these other versions which seem to use some sort of dynamic equivalence. I haven't read them in a while, but compare them side by side with the KJV and count the words, if there is a big change in the number of words, I would refrain from using it.

http://www.byztxt.com/download/index.html
Introduction to Robinson & Pierpont
http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/2006/01/review-of-robinson-and-pierpont.html

http://www.byztxt.com/download/index.html
http://solascriptura-tt.org/Bibliol...extMovingAwayFromPreservedScripture-Cloud.htm
https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/te...ament_greek/text/wallace-majoritytext-gtj.pdf
https://bible.org/article/some-second-thoughts-majority-text
http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/2006/03/interview-with-dan-wallace.html
http://www.livingwater.org/about-the-logos-21-translation.html
https://bible.org/article/majority-text-and-original-text-are-they-identical#_ftnref26
http://majoritytext.com/letter.html
http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/gtj/04-1_119.pdf
http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/RobPier.html
http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/2006/01/review-of-robinson-and-pierpont.html
 
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As you don't read, or presumably trust, links because "the internet is vast and wide with error" (post #211); why provide so many for others?
Presumably you spent much time browsing the "erroneous" internet to find them.
 
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createdtoworship

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As you don't read, or presumably trust, links because "the internet is vast and wide with error" (post #211); why provide so many for others?
Presumably you spent much time browsing the "erroneous" internet to find them.
well sir I do use the internet. But I don't use them for debate purposes, I actually deleted the link about forgery because that is part of the topic we were debating. But using links as casual references, in a non debate conversation is fine. Don't you agree? For example I could quote wikipedia on a sinaiticus forgery, but it could be publically edited by a host of people. I am not an authority, nor are you. We could create blogs about it and talk about it to learn, but not to make a solid argument of evidence. I do have a website, I use it for christian financial investing, and Godly investing. But when making arguments on here about finance I do not post it. I am not an authority. My posts are not advice or any other, it's just an opinion.
 
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well sir I do use the internet. But I don't use them for debate purposes, I actually deleted the link about forgery because that is part of the topic we were debating. But using links as casual references, in a non debate conversation is fine. Don't you agree? For example I could quote wikipedia on a sinaiticus forgery, but it could be publically edited by a host of people. I am not an authority, nor are you. We could create blogs about it and talk about it to learn, but not to make a solid argument of evidence. I do have a website, I use it for christian financial investing, and Godly investing. But when making arguments on here about finance I do not post it. I am not an authority. My posts are not advice or any other, it's just an opinion.

No, that's fine.
I just thought it strange that having said that you don't read links because there is much error on the internet, you then provided a string of them for us to read.

And I'm female, by the way. :)
 
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createdtoworship

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No, that's fine.
I just thought it strange that having said that you don't read links because there is much error on the internet, you then provided a string of them for us to read.

And I'm female, by the way. :)
Yeah they are a host of sites by unprofessionals. But they can be useful for a quick study. But again in debate, I choose not to use them at all. And again the context is a conversation with another person who likes the majority text. So i was not debating him, so websites come back into play there. Also sorry for the confusion of gender. Such is the world we live in unfortunately.
 
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createdtoworship

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to summarize the codex sinaiticus forgery allegations.... vellum or other manuscript papyrus etc, will not be bleach white after 1400 years, especially with not vacuum sealing. So there is NO WAY the sinaiticus is a 4th century document. It's not possible. And the fact that one page will be stark white while the next behind it is dark, like hundreds of years darker. Is suspicious. It's like they hand picked the best blank, old leaves they could find and pieced it together to see if someone would buy it for a lot of money. And that is exactly what happened, the vatican used it's political prowess to get this copy sanctified, and the rest is history. I have loads, i mean dozens of photographs and notes and you name it, just waiting for a single soul to take me up on this debate, so I am not talking to myself. I await your reply.
 
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Can you provide an example of the bleach-white vellum; and if possible other examples of vellum from the same period as Sinaiticus (or its "alleged" time if you prefer) and how it should be impossible for any of the vellum to be as lightly colored as it is?

That is, what sort of comparative analysis is being done to make the claim, and can it be supported by more than mere assertion?

Who in the fields of paleography supports the hypothesis, and what is their methodology?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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createdtoworship

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Can you provide an example of the bleach-white vellum; and if possible other examples of vellum from the same period as Sinaiticus (or its "alleged" time if you prefer) and how it should be impossible for any of the vellum to be as lightly colored as it is?

That is, what sort of comparative analysis is being done to make the claim, and can it be supported by more than mere assertion?

Who in the fields of paleography supports the hypothesis, and what is their methodology?

-CryptoLutheran

Wow, thank you! This will be an interesting study. I would study it, but I am already convinced having read the book, so some external eyes on this will be helpful. Unfortunately
I am short on time this morning, I could have a few hours ago. But my time is up on the computer till tomorrow I will book mark this and get some more info for you. I can get pictures. but you have to remember, this is going against the consensus. The majority of scholars will not be open minded toward a fraud because they are under the impression the sinaiticus is all they have. Why shoot themselves in the foot. I will look but no guarantees on them. But again I can take a look.

here however is a quote from the book "the sinaiticus forgery" by bill cooper.

"The fact that the Leipzig leaves and the writing upon them were in such pristine condition at the time of their ‘discovery’ should never be underappreciated. The parchment was described by one contemporary observer as “white” (“... the thinnest white parchment”);1 and by another even as, “The wonderfully fine snow-white parchment of the Sinaitic MS...”2 Yet a third witness testifies in 1913 that it – the Codex – “is written on snow-white vellum.”3"

here are his foot notes for the quotes:
1. “....писана на тончайшем белом пергамене.” – Uspensky, Porphyry. The First Trip to the Sinai Monastery in 1845. 1856. Petersburg. p. 226. This title is translated from the Russian (Первое путешествие в Синайский монастырь B 1845). Uspensky’s book was never translated into English.

2. Hastings Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics. 1910. New York. Vol. 2. p. 583. An early observer of the Leipzig leaves who described them as “snow-white” was one Ernst von Dobschutz, the author of the above article. He got the idea that they were of antelope skin from Tischendorf himself who was otherwise unable to account for their whiteness.

3. M’Clymont, J A. New Testament Criticism: Its History and Results. 1913. Hodder & Stoughton. London. p. 44.

4. “When seeking those animals whose skins might be most suitable for making parchment, it can hardly be doubted that before all others, the species of antelope which is even now most common in the deserts of Libya, Egypt and Arabia supplied the parchment from which the Frederick-Augustus Codex was made.” See C. Tischendorf, Codex Friderico-Augustanus sive fragmenta Veteris Testamenti e codice Graeco omnium qui in Europa supersunt facile antiquissimo in Oriente detexit in patriam attulit ad modum codicis edidit Constantinus Tischendorf...., Leipzig, 1846. cit: Codex Sinaiticus - Parchment


Now granted this was in there first discovery, that snow whiteness only lasts a few years then they start oxidizing if not in a vacuum. So the allegation was that when they were discovered, they were newly forged.

This is a quote from another thread on CF:

"n 1850, Fr. Porphyrius Uspensky stated that the Codex Sinaiticus was written on the finest WHITE PARCHMENT. This is also the case TODAY for the 43 sheets that Constantin Tischendorf took in 1844 and then later gave it to Fr. Porphyrius Uspensky in their dispute. Those 43 sheets are called the Codex Friderico Augustanus and are now located in Saxony.

Today, the Codex Sinaiticus are yellowed and darkened in color. For some reason after 1850 these pages became yellow and they look much older than they truly are. But miraculously the other 43 sheets that were sent to Fr. Porphyrius Uspensky remain white.

There is growing forensic evidence that the Codex Sinaiticus is a 19th century forgery, sponsored by the Catholic Church, in order to undermine the Protestant Bible. For more information you can read Dr Bill Cooper PhD, ThD, books"

The evidence given by Dr Cooper on this subject and the surprised response from the British Library staff at the youthful condition of the manuscripts is very compelling. For example the Magna Carta (1200 AD) is so frail and desiccated that it is enclosed in a sealed environment, to prevent total disintegration.

The Codex Sinaiticus is allegedly 800 year older than that, and yet it has had no special preservative treatment or conditions all this time, the parchment condition is fresh, supple and un-oxidized. This is the cause of the surprise, of the British Library staff, who are acknowledged as world class experts in handling such manuscripts. Additionally, there is evidence of textual tampering, attempts at artificially aging the manuscript, and alleged bookworm tracks that start in the middle of the page.

When you read from Tobit 1:7 – 2:2 to Tobit 2:2 – 3:6, one page is white, while the other is yellow
sinaiticus pages darker than other pages.png


Minuscule 2427
The scholars thought that the Minuscule 2427 was from the 1300 but in 2009, when Abigail Quandt did an ink analysis it was determined that the ink was created after 1874. They found that the ink that the Minuscule 2427 was written with had synthetic ultramarine blue, which was only available as a pigment since the 1820’s. They also found that the white was a zinc white which was available 1825 and they found another pigment that was fluorescent, called zinc sulfide. This was part of litliopone. It was made by a special process, but not until 1874.

If your bible has a marking of “Codex 2427” in the Gospel of Mark section, then that text has been derived from the forgery of Minuscule 2427.

The Gospel of Mark in the Codex Vaticanus and the Minuscule 2427 are identical which proves that the Vatican had knowledge of the creation of the forgery and maybe was the reason for its creation. Since the Codex Vaticanus is housed in the Vatican Library, it had to be copied in the Vatican Library. Back then, there were no scanners and the pocket cameras came out in 1914. The Minuscule 2427 was discovered in 1917 when a Greek Byzantine collector died in Athens Greece.

If the Vatican was responsible for the forged Minuscule 2427 when why would it be unlikely that they were also behind the Codex Sinaiticus in an attempt to discredit the Protestant movement and to give validity to the Codex Vaticanus.

The Star of East, it is real as is the book, just like the old New York Times newspapers that are on microfilm in the Library are real. These two items prove that the missing Letters or Barnabas are the creation of the forger and author Simonides. There have been numerous people in history that support Simonides claim, and that Tischendorf aged the Codex Sinaiticus, they are Kallinikos Hieromachos, William Turner (1815), Richard Pococke (1700) and Fr. Porphyrius Uspensky of Russia.

The burden of proof that the Codex Sinaiticus is authentic, belongs to the people that support it. I believe that the Codex Sinaiticus is just another type of Piltdown Man Syndrome, that people believe something is real without testing its authenticity, because it supports their religious beliefs. For 50 years it was believed that the Piltdown Man was real, but it turned out to be a fake instead of it being the missing link between man and ape.

If they believe that the bible is an original, then why don't they run a special analysis on the black ink. This way we will now of the ink was from the 4th Century or the 1800's. The Gospel of Mark (Minuscule 2427) that was thought to be from the 1300's turned out to be after 1874 when they did an analysis of the ink.

But then, the British Library would lose millions worth of assets over night, and the Codex Vaticanus will not be valid any more. There is a big business in the Bible printing, estimated at $500 million a year just in the USA.
 
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Wow, thank you! This will be an interesting study. I would study it, but I am already convinced having read the book, so some external eyes on this will be helpful.

I can't join in the debate with you on this, because I don't know anything about it - although if, as you say, you are already convinced by the book you have read, there would seem little point in actually debating.

What I want to know is; how does all this affect those who don't read the KJV?
If you are certain that we are reading Bibles that are based on fabricated/false manuscripts, does that mean we are not real Christians and not saved? Or does God somehow preserve the Gospel and it's just "non essentials" which may differ?
If all modern versions are wrong, at least somewhere in their text, that would suggest that either God was not able to prevent false Bibles or that he is happy for some to believe a false Gospel. That casts doubt on the Bible being the word of God.

And if God can save, heal, bless and be with all who have "false"/faulty Bibles, and he is prepared to let us read those "false" Bibles every day and teaches us though them; does that mean that God can use "lies" to save and bless us? Does that mean that he doesn't mind too much about the truth?

I'm still very happy with my NIV, and I meet God in and through it. I see no reason to change that.
 
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createdtoworship

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I can't join in the debate with you on this, because I don't know anything about it - although if, as you say, you are already convinced by the book you have read, there would seem little point in actually debating.

Well I am convinced, but normally when in debate, it helps to actually believe what you are debating to do well at it. But if it helps you, I don't have solid proof of a forgery, nor do we have solid proof the Bible is the word of God at all. But we use logic and information and faith, and a mixture of all of that to come to a rational conclusion.

If all modern versions are wrong, at least somewhere in their text, that would suggest that either God was not able to prevent false Bibles or that he is happy for some to believe a false Gospel. That casts doubt on the Bible being the word of God.

YES! this is a good observation that many miss. Apparently God is just fine and dandy with a plethora of error in and around his true church. I think when it's all said and done we should be nice and courteous regatdless of one's view of politics and religion. Do not mock them, as they sincerely believe what they believe, and rarely to people get convinced of something in a single thread or from a single conversation. But people usually have to test stuff out. But yes there are probably a hundred various factions of christianity and not all of them are correct, and I would say almost all of them have some sort of error or another. Why does God allow it? Because I believe that heresy is a work of the flesh and that God allows us to encounter certain heresy because of some sin in our life. That is just my view. Say someone ends up by fate to be in the mormon church instead of true christianity, well I believe that it is from some sin in their past that they are mormon. God allowed them to be susceptible to the error. Now if a whole family in in a cult and the parents made the kids go, many times the kids can and do go to another church. Because parental sins don't go on to the child. God may open up the eyes of the child to the truth but not the parents. I think it's the same thing with Bible translations. I think we will get to heaven and realize we are all wrong. Not just a little bit wrong, but that we have our entire religion based on western thought and not the Bible.

What I want to know is; how does all this affect those who don't read the KJV?
If you are certain that we are reading Bibles that are based on fabricated/false manuscripts, does that mean we are not real Christians and not saved? Or does God somehow preserve the Gospel and it's just "non essentials" which may differ?

Well if the sinaiticus was forged, I personally believe that much of it was forged from existing manuscripts at the time, and that may have been official Bible manuscripts but we don't know. For instance the majority text was in existence when this forgery was penned. So vast amounts of copying could have taken place. So basically that means that even a forgery can relay some truth to it, a mormon church prints the KJV bible and sells it to all their congregants. So they are getting some of the truth, just not the whole truth. I think it is excuses like this that this forgery has been swept under the rug. People don't want to fork out another 50 bucks for a leather NKJV or whatever, plus their teacher teaches out of NIV, so who cares right? Well if one person can forge a manuscript and get away with it. It can happen again.

And if God can save, heal, bless and be with all who have "false"/faulty Bibles, and he is prepared to let us read those "false" Bibles every day and teaches us though them; does that mean that God can use "lies" to save and bless us? Does that mean that he doesn't mind too much about the truth?

I think heresy is a work of the flesh as it says in Galatians 5:19-21. I think the reason why people read the NIV is because God allowed it. So technically these debates are worthless. I would ask, why God did you allow me to be decieved? What did I do? That would be how I would deal with it. Get to the bottom of the matter, see if there is any falsehood in your life.

I'm still very happy with my NIV, and I meet God in and through it. I see no reason to change that.

well that is fine, just realize that over 200 verses are missing from NIV that are in the NKJV. That is a lot, that is not a little bit. Technically no doctrine is missing because God repeats Himself all over the Bible, but some of us need every verse God every penned, we need all the help we can get to get it right. But I like to do things well, and do it right. If the Bible I had was a lie, I personally could not use it any more. I would always see and think it to be a lie. But that is just me, if you are good with using a forgery, then this discussion may just be of no affect. And I get that. But that is not a good thing. Do you know every verse about fasting in the new testament is missing from the NIV? Fasting as in the context of the disciples fasting to get a demon out of a person. It occurs three times in the new testament, they are all missing from the not just the NIV but missing from the forged manuscript.
 
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well that is fine, just realize that over 200 verses are missing from NIV that are in the NKJV. That is a lot, that is not a little bit.

I'll answer the rest of your post tomorrow - hopefully. But I just noticed this last paragraph.
As I have said before; that doesn't prove that the NKJV is correct and the NIV false. Are they in the original Greek? If not, the NKJV has added them, and the NIV is correct in not having something that was not there.

If you start with a "the KJV is perfect" mindset, and if you compare other Bibles with it and find they differ in some way, then it's always, in your mind, going to be the other Bibles which are false - because you have already stated that the KJV/NKJV is perfect.

Do you know every verse about fasting in the new testament is missing from the NIV?

Not at all;
Matthew 6:16-18
Matthew 9:14
Luke 2:37
Luke 5:33
Acts of the Apostles 13:2
Acts of the Apostles 14:23

Fasting as in the context of the disciples fasting to get a demon out of a person.

In that one example; maybe. But you didn't say that, you said EVERY verse in the NT on fasting is missing from the NIV. It isn't.

It occurs three times in the new testament, they are all missing from the not just the NIV but missing from the forged manuscript.

If a certain verse is NOT in a manuscript that has been proved to have been forged, (though I don't know whether that is the case), isn't that a good thing?
You have a forged or false manuscript that DOESN'T say something, and you're saying that this is bad??
 
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The KJV is formatted based on the Masoretic text which was written to intentionally alter certain genealogies in an effort to falsely attribute the identity of Melchizedek to Shem, son of Noah. Doing this allows anti-Christian Jewish scholars to deny Jesus as our high priest by “proving” Melchizedek was in the priestly lineage but not Jesus. That, by itself, invalidates the KJV as authoritative.

Yes even Paul spoke in NT that there were people alredy arguing about the genealogy tree in his time probably they tried to destroy the timeline to distract people.

Also how easy tell that somethis is not pure word of God is that KJV replaces the name of God with ... Lord. Like it's almost replaced in everywhere but few spots where it was forgotten to be replaced like Psalms 68:4.

Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him.
 
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createdtoworship

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I'll answer the rest of your post tomorrow - hopefully. But I just noticed this last paragraph.
As I have said before; that doesn't prove that the NKJV is correct and the NIV false. Are they in the original Greek? If not, the NKJV has added them, and the NIV is correct in not having something that was not there.

If you start with a "the KJV is perfect" mindset, and if you compare other Bibles with it and find they differ in some way, then it's always, in your mind, going to be the other Bibles which are false - because you have already stated that the KJV/NKJV is perfect.



Not at all;
Matthew 6:16-18
Matthew 9:14
Luke 2:37
Luke 5:33
Acts of the Apostles 13:2
Acts of the Apostles 14:23



In that one example; maybe. But you didn't say that, you said EVERY verse in the NT on fasting is missing from the NIV. It isn't.



If a certain verse is NOT in a manuscript that has been proved to have been forged, (though I don't know whether that is the case), isn't that a good thing?
You have a forged or false manuscript that DOESN'T say something, and you're saying that this is bad??
Thanks for the response. Yes the 200 verses are there in the greek manuscripts. It's a byzantinian family of manuscript and it is based on the majority of manuscripts available, it's called the textus receptus. It actually has over 200 verses that the manuscript, AND the NIV are missing. And I mention that the verses in the bible that talk about fasting to remove a demon from a person, I think there are three of them. They are all missing. That means that technically you could go to a foreign country and see a possessed person, with a high ranking demon, like a general or something. And simply calling pastors out to pray of her would not be enough, you would have to fast and pray the Bible says. The disciples fasted and prayed it says in mathew 17:21, I looked it up in the NIV and I got a blank page, signifying it's not there....

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 17:21 - New International Version
 
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And I mention that the verses in the bible that talk about fasting to remove a demon from a person, I think there are three of them. They are all missing.

But there is a note in the NIV which says "some manuscripts 'prayer and fasting' ". So at least there's mention of it, and your mythical Pastors in another country, who presumably only used the NIV, would be aware that some Bible says that fasting is needed.
In my experience, knowledge of demon possession and being able to positively identify a demon is rare. Anyone involved in demon warfare might already know this.

But is it really the case that if you see that someone has a destructive and powerful demon you can only say "hang on for a few more days while I fast"; is the name of Jesus not powerful enough on its own?
 
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