Godfire - a Word Study

Saint Steven · Jan 4, 2020

Charlie24 said:
When the Holy Spirit comes to dwell inside the believer, He is "in" the believer, "with" the believer and "upon" the believer.

But He can only produce from the believer that which the believer is willing to do.

Yes, the Holy Spirit is limited by man in what He can do.

The OT prophets did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit, He would move on them in many ways but could not dwell in their hearts as he does now. The sin debt for man had not been paid yet.

What do you suppose happened here? (see scripture below)
The believers in Samaria had been water baptized but had not received the Holy Spirit.
1) How did they know these believers had not received the Spirit?
2) How did they know these believers HAD received the Spirit after the Apostle laid hands on them?

Acts 8:14-17
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Charlie24 · Jan 4, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Don't be so quick to claim victory.

Did this happen before Pentecost? (yup)

John 20:20-22
After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

He breathed on them the temporary gift of the Holy Spirit to carry out His Gospel.

It was the same as when the OT prophets received the Spirit for a temporary work.

He told them to stay in Jerusalem and wait for the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Luke 24:49
And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

This promise was the indwelling Holy Spirit sent at Pentecost.

From the time Jesus breathed on them the Spirit (as you pointed out) until His commission at His ascension to wait in Jerusalem was a period of almost 40 days, some few days less than 40.

This was the temporary gift of the Spirit to work until He gave them commandment to go and wait in the city for the permanent gift of the Holy Spirit.

Lazarus Short · Jan 4, 2020

Charlie24 said:
There are no unbelievers in hell, but it's to late for them.

They chose not to believe on this side of the grave.

Please quote me from the Word a text stating that your afterlife destiny in set at death. That idea strikes me as just the opposite of natal astrology.

Charlie24 · Jan 4, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
Please quote me from the Word a text stating that your afterlife destiny in set at death. That idea strikes me as just the opposite of natal astrology.

I have in post# 27.

But of course it will not be accepted by the greater hope.

Lazarus Short · Jan 4, 2020

Charlie24 said:
I have in post# 27.

But of course it will not be accepted by the greater hope.

This is a VERY bleak outlook - how can you see hope for anyone in those verses?
Ecc. 9:3-4
"This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion."

Jesus the Christ came to give us better.

Charlie24 · Jan 4, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
This is a VERY bleak outlook - how can you see hope for anyone in those verses?
Ecc. 9:3-4
"This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion."

Jesus the Christ came to give us better.

Let me break it down.

3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

The one event Solomon is speaking of is death, It comes to all, whether they are rich, poor, great or small. Yet, men's hearts are filled with evil and madness, so long as they live without God.

4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

There is hope for salvation only while the individual is alive. The living dog/sinner still has hope. The dead lion is no longer remembered for hope. Though he was great during life.

Saint Steven · Jan 4, 2020

Charlie24 said:
He breathed on them the temporary gift of the Holy Spirit to carry out His Gospel.

It was the same as when the OT prophets received the Spirit for a temporary work.

He told them to stay in Jerusalem and wait for the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Luke 24:49
And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

This promise was the indwelling Holy Spirit sent at Pentecost.

From the time Jesus breathed on them the Spirit (as you pointed out) until His commission at His ascension to wait in Jerusalem was a period of almost 40 days, some few days less than 40.

This was the temporary gift of the Spirit to work until He gave them commandment to go and wait in the city for the permanent gift of the Holy Spirit.

That is the Cessationist view again.

A temporary gift of the Holy Spirit? That's a new one.
But the rest of it, the Cessationist view.

Cessationists deny that the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is a subsequent experience to salvation. Those of us who have had the Baptism with the Holy Spirit and are now operating in the manifestations (gifts) of the Holy Spirit know better. Holy Spirit Baptism is the gateway to the manifestations. (see 1Cor.12)

I look forward to reading your reply to my questions about Samaria. (post #41)
Those water-baptized believers did not receive the Holy Spirit when they believed.
How come?

Lazarus Short · Jan 4, 2020

What's a Cessationist?

Charlie24 · Jan 4, 2020

Saint Steven said:
That is the Cessationist view again.

A temporary gift of the Holy Spirit? That's a new one.
But the rest of it, the Cessationist view.

Cessationists deny that the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is a subsequent experience to salvation. Those of us who have had the Baptism with the Holy Spirit and are now operating in the manifestations (gifts) of the Holy Spirit know better. Holy Spirit Baptism is the gateway to the manifestations. (see 1Cor.12)

I look forward to reading your reply to my questions about Samaria. (post #41)
Those water-baptized believers did not receive the Holy Spirit when they believed.
How come?

The majority of the theologians wrote and believed the baptism of the Holy Spirit is as Paul described it. The working and regeneration of Holy Spirit inside man at the point of conversion.

This notion of the baptism of the Holy Spirit being the gift from where manifestation of the spirit was never called by this name in scripture. It happened but not by this name.

The name was hi-jacked by the Pentecostals around the beginning of the 20th century.

Now there are untold millions who have the wrong perception of the true work of the Holy Spirit in the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I will check out post#41.

Saint Steven · Jan 4, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
What's a Cessationist?

Cessationism:
The concept, amongst most Christians, that the works of the Holy Spirit (speaking in tongues, prophecy, healing, and miracles) ceased at some point in history.

Charlie24 · Jan 4, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Cessationism:
The concept, amongst most Christians, that the works of the Holy Spirit (speaking in tongues, prophecy, healing, and miracles) ceased at some point in history.

I'm not one of those, I can't prove it or disprove it. I stand neutral.

The problem is that no one can determine with scripture what is "when that which is perfect is come."

The Pentecostals say it is the resurrection, that's when it will cease, which is yet future.

The others say it was the fulfillment of the cannon of scriptures, which is past.

I can't prove it so I stand on the sideline just in case I were to slander what God has ordained for man.

Saint Steven · Jan 4, 2020

Charlie24 said:
The majority of the theologians wrote and believed the baptism of the Holy Spirit is as Paul described it. The working and regeneration of Holy Spirit inside man at the point of conversion. ...

The majority of the theologians are also Damnationists. You know what I think about that.

Saint Steven · Jan 4, 2020

Charlie24 said:
This notion of the baptism of the Holy Spirit being the gift from where manifestation of the spirit was never called by this name in scripture. It happened but not by this name.

What name do you use?

I've never met anyone that operated in the manifestations of the Holy Spirit that had not had the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. Have you?

I was raised in the ungifted Evangelical church. I know the difference.

Saint Steven · Jan 4, 2020

Charlie24 said:
I'm not one of those, I can't prove it or disprove it. I stand neutral.

If that is true you should also acknowledge that there is more than one view on the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. But you don't.

The theologians that you depend on are all Cessationists. (and Damnationists)

Charlie24 · Jan 4, 2020

Saint Steven said:
What name do you use?

I've never met anyone that operated in the manifestations of the Holy Spirit that had not had the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. Have you?

I have seen only God knows how many Godly men and women who have operated in the manifestations of the Spirit without claiming this title.

The manifestations of the Spirit is not all about tongues and healing.

Paul asked the question, "do all speak with tongues" the obvious answer is no.

"Do all have the gift of healing," the obvious answer is no.

Charlie24 · Jan 4, 2020

Saint Steven said:
If that is true you should also acknowledge that there is more than one view on the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. But you don't.

The theologians that you depend on are all Cessationists. (and Damnationists)

Steven you are flooding me posts and it is impossible for me to answer all of this.

If you want my response please limit your posts so we can communicate.

I will respond to all your thoughts and questions but not like this!

Charlie24 · Jan 4, 2020

Charlie24 said:
Steven you are flooding me posts and it is impossible for me to answer all of this.

If you want my response please limit your posts so we can communicate.

I will respond to all your thoughts and questions but not like this!

Before you throw another line of questioning at me, give me time to respond to post#41.

I'm just getting to it, I'm babysitting while doing this.

Charlie24 · Jan 4, 2020

Saint Steven said:
What do you suppose happened here? (see scripture below)
The believers in Samaria had been water baptized but had not received the Holy Spirit.
1) How did they know these believers had not received the Spirit?
2) How did they know these believers HAD received the Spirit after the Apostle laid hands on them?

Acts 8:14-17
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

When the apostles heard they had accepted the Word of God, they knew they had been saved. They received the indwelling Holy Spirit when they were saved as Paul tells us.

When they arrived they prayed that they would receive the Holy Spirit. This is what you refer to as the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Phillip had preached the Gospel and they were saved but he didn't preach what you call the baptism of the Holy Spirit nor did he lay hands of them for this purpose.

They had been simply baptized in the name of the Lord. This always the water baptism (in the name of the Lord).

Then Peter and John placed their hands on them. This is what you refer to as the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They had prayed for them to receive and now they lay hands on them a they receive.

1) I believe they knew they needed to go and lay hands on them because Phillip did not have this gift. His gift was the gift of preaching. Some say this Phillip was not the apostle Phillip, I don't know.

2)The receiving of the Spirit is always accompanied with speaking in tongues, it was not mentioned here but that was the proof.

Saint Steven · Jan 5, 2020

Charlie24 said:
When the apostles heard they had accepted the Word of God, they knew they had been saved. They received the indwelling Holy Spirit when they were saved as Paul tells us.

When they arrived they prayed that they would receive the Holy Spirit. This is what you refer to as the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Phillip had preached the Gospel and they were saved but he didn't preach what you call the baptism of the Holy Spirit nor did he lay hands of them for this purpose.

They had been simply baptized in the name of the Lord. This always the water baptism (in the name of the Lord).

Then Peter and John placed their hands on them. This is what you refer to as the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They had prayed for them to receive and now they lay hands on them a they receive.

1) I believe they knew they needed to go and lay hands on them because Phillip did not have this gift. His gift was the gift of preaching. Some say this Phillip was not the apostle Phillip, I don't know.

2)The receiving of the Spirit is always accompanied with speaking in tongues, it was not mentioned here but that was the proof.

Have you had the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?

Saint Steven · Jan 5, 2020

Charlie24 said:
Paul asked the question, "do all speak with tongues" the obvious answer is no.

That was in reference to the gift of tongues. See #3 in my list below.
The Baptism with the Holy Spirit initiates #1, #2 and #4. And potentially #3 and #5.

Five Different Uses of Tongues
1) Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God
2) Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in our spirit
3) Prophetic ministry language - Addressing the whole church/preferably with interpretation
4) Singing in our spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity
5) Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not yours)

Godfire - a Word Study

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