"I never knew you'

DamianWarS · Jan 4, 2020

Zachm531 said:
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

I believe that many people in the church today have a misunderstanding of what the Lord is saying. Before I delve into this I want to clarify in saying that I'm not sure if this view has been proposed before or not. Also, I could be wrong, I am not claiming certainty.

Many people understand this verse to be saying that you need faith AND WORKS to be saved because Jesus tells the sinners(workers of iniquity/lawlessness) to depart from him. If this is the case it seems to contradict all of the other claims of Jesus and the disciples that salvation comes by faith.

I believe that Jesus is referring to groups such as Jehovas Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims etc.. and let me explain why.

These groups all have obscure and incorrect versions of Jesus Christ. Jehovas Witnesses believe that Jesus was the first MADE creation, Micheal the Archangel and that he is the brother of Lucifer. This is false according to scripture- See Hebrews 1 . The Mormons believe that Jesus was a man who through his obedience to the Father's law, became a god. This is also false. See Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 44:6 . and Muslims say that Jesus was just a prophet. This is false. See Hebrews 1:8 , Revelation 22:13 , Matthew 12:8 . Obviously there are many more examples to disprove all of these, but, you get my point. This is a false Jesus and we know that God doesn't fellowship or hear the unbelievers John 9:31

The thing that all man made religions have in common is the need for good works and the belief that good deeds outweighs bad deeds, and if you have more good then bad then you get to Heaven. The three groups I mentioned all believe in works based salvation. They believe that if they are obedient enough then they will be able to make it to Heaven. Of course we understand that this is false: Galatians 5:3 and Galatians 2:16 . If a man is to be justified by works then we are required to keep EVERY LAW. We know this is not possible and the author of Galatians states it clearly here Galatians 2:21 . If we are required to keep the law, then Jesus came for no reason. Hence if these people are trying to obtain salvation by works, then they are required to keep the whole of the law, which we have seen is impossible. Hence they fail and are therefore workers of lawlessness.

So on the last day, when the people of these groups say to Jesus: " Lord, Lord have we not done many GREAT WORKS in your name?" He will say "I never knew you". These people WERE doing GREAT WORKS but they had a false Jesus who wasn't the One and only TURE GOD, a Jesus who couldn't save by his work alone but also need their good works.

And when he calls them workers of iniquity, its not because they did not obey Gods law BUT quite the opposite, these people tried to be saved by the law. They were severed from Christ and fallen from grace ( Galatians 5:4 ) so they were required to keep the entire law! ( Galatians 5:3 ). We are not able to keep the entire law its impossible ( Romans 3:23 ).

Jn 15:9 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

notice this is an "if" not a "when" meaning Christ draws us to him, we do not draw Christ to us. Reading John 15 you see that Christ chooses us, he abides in us and when we abide in him we will bear fruit. If we do not bear fruit we will be rejected. We cannot bear fruit without Christ so Christ must abide in us, and he does, however, we too must abide in him in order to bear fruit. When we stop abiding we lose the fruit and we are cut off. So although Christ chooses us (free grace), there is a responsibly to choose him back (works) by way of bearing fruit. Christ also warns "If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." this feels a lot like a "depart from me" type of statement.

Greengardener · Jan 4, 2020

The Righterzpen said:
This is the scariest verse in the entire Bible!

These people clearly believe they are Christians and they are not. This is not about "works" / "grace" salvation. This is about people who are self deceived. And that is an individual thing; not specifically of groups who are doctrinally clearly outside of the gospel.

These people are defined as "workers of iniquity" in that they proclaim they are believers when they are really hard hearted and that hard heartedness shows up in their actions and attitudes toward other people. They carry an air of believing they are spiritually superior.

There are several examples of false brethren in the epistles. 2 Timothy 3 is one passage that gives a description of what these people are like. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10 is another passage. Also the admonition to the 7 churches in Revelation contains examples of false believers.

This also runs parallel to the wheat and tares parable. Most of the people can't tell the difference between the wheat and the tares and that's what makes this passage so scary. Tares are good at faking being wheat. Yes, there are clearly manifestations of belief systems that are outside of Scriptural truth; but having one's doctrines all correct does not save anyone either. Again, what makes this passage so scary!

What I found, and only somewhat recently after coming to this faith many years ago, was that we haven't studied who God is and how He reveals Himself to the people He called out. We have forgotten that the OT was the foundational resource for what Jesus taught by example and word. Jesus explained but did not contradict what God told His people all along. An extensive study of the OT straightens so much out in my thinking. In this thread, the tying in together of what looks like an argument of law and grace, or works and grace, are all explained. God called us to BE a certain way, both inside and outside, which is HOLY, RIGHTEOUS, MERCIFUL, JUST, as He is and He delights in. So words alone (as in, I believe, therefore I am saved) aren't quite the ticket. While we believe and put our actions into agreement with that faith, there is no fear, but because of our human proclivity to pride, to self-satisfaction, to think we've "arrived' at the truth and have checked off all the boxes so we can sit down and live selfishly and be OK - well, that's the primary reason I wouldn't be quick to preach a once saved kind of doctrine, although, if we do abide in Him and bear fruit as He said we both would and should, then we need not fear His pruning will result in our being cut off and tossed aside.

I have to admit the fierce arguing between these two seemingly opposing positions always concerns me because with a thorough study of who God is and what He wants for us, there is no discord. He wants us, He wants us to be His, and He is holy, so we must also be, both by what He does on the inside and what we decide with our choices.

DamianWarS · Jan 4, 2020

Zachm531 said:
I believe that Jesus is referring to groups such as Jehovas Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims etc.. and let me explain why.

Mathew 25 can help to clarify

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

Zachm531 · Jan 4, 2020

Kenny'sID said:
Why? What part of that verse so much as even indicates it's about those people? Surely you have some reason for the claim?

Read the OP, its literally explained immediately after i stated it.

That is not a false Jesus, here he is stating plain as day he needs us to do good, and even requires it for our salvation.
It its a false Jesus and I explained how, read the OP
John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
“Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:28-29‬ ‭
The only work we need to do^

Are you saying we can get to heaven without doing good, in spite of what Christ says right there?

Yes, the entire Bible states that. Ephesians 2:8-9 , the entire book of Romans, the entire book of Galatians.
Not very good at this website, some of my responses are in that box under your questions^^^

IntriKate · Jan 4, 2020

A lot of people talk about God but by the lack of fruit clearly don’t talk to him on a personal level.

The Righterzpen · Jan 4, 2020

Greengardener said:
What I found, and only somewhat recently after coming to this faith many years ago, was that we haven't studied who God is and how He reveals Himself to the people He called out. We have forgotten that the OT was the foundational resource for what Jesus taught by example and word. Jesus explained but did not contradict what God told His people all along. An extensive study of the OT straightens so much out in my thinking. In this thread, the tying in together of what looks like an argument of law and grace, or works and grace, are all explained. God called us to BE a certain way, both inside and outside, which is HOLY, RIGHTEOUS, MERCIFUL, JUST, as He is and He delights in. So words alone (as in, I believe, therefore I am saved) aren't quite the ticket. While we believe and put our actions into agreement with that faith, there is no fear, but because of our human proclivity to pride, to self-satisfaction, to think we've "arrived' at the truth and have checked off all the boxes so we can sit down and live selfishly and be OK - well, that's the primary reason I wouldn't be quick to preach a once saved kind of doctrine, although, if we do abide in Him and bear fruit as He said we both would and should, then we need not fear His pruning will result in our being cut off and tossed aside.

I have to admit the fierce arguing between these two seemingly opposing positions always concerns me because with a thorough study of who God is and what He wants for us, there is no discord. He wants us, He wants us to be His, and He is holy, so we must also be, both by what He does on the inside and what we decide with our choices.

The arguments between "works" and "grace" are all rooted in what one believes theologically about how sinners are redeemed.

So to put "loose terms" on historical church language; we have:
Works gospels (law keepers)
"Arminian" (free will) theology
"Calvinism" (predestination / election) theology

All of these are actually "subjects" of a different thread; which aren't really related to the passage of the OP. How an individual interprets the OP passage, is colored by their theological bent. And this is where I think this thread has "gone off the rails" so to speak in addressing what the passage is really talking about.

As in these other theological issues? Scripture is pretty clear that salvation is the impetus that produces works (which were actually foreordained in eternity). But the "works" of a believer go far beyond moral law keeping.

Also, what one believes about what motivates a person to "exercise a certain set of behaviors"; will also vary based on the individuals theological beliefs.

I am absolutely in the "Calvinistic" (predestination / election) camp and so I see what actually motivates me to behave in certain ways is the Holy Ghost. "Arminians" see their will in a different way than I see mine. They see the exercise of their will as the impetus for their salvation. I see my willingness as a consequence of having been atoned for from the foundation of the world. And "law keepers" believe they can attain favor from God by following rules. Some "Arminians" are "once saved always saved"; some are not. All "Calvinists" are "OSAS". "Law keepers" obviously are not "OSAS", simply by nature of their belief system.

So those are the underpinnings of theological belief systems that you see driving the various arguments on this thread.

Kenny'sID · Jan 4, 2020

Zachm531 said:
Yes, the entire Bible states that. Ephesians 2:8-9 , the entire book of Romans, the entire book of Galatians.
Not very good at this website, some of my responses are in that box under your questions^^^

Another "go see it", with no explanation of how it backs your claim. "The entire bible states it", is first, not true, not to mention, that's pretty vague, don't you think.

Specifically

danielmears · Jan 4, 2020

timothyu said:
Hear and do what? Matthew 25:34-46 As you say... have faith in God.. he tells us what to do for a reason.

Absolutely, he gives us an abundance of guidance through his word, which is God's Word. He is a living God, filled with power! He is in and through all things the scriptures say and is Light, Love and Spirit! So, we are to Fear Not, what appears to be but have faith, believing God is with us. We are to fill ourselves with His Word and speak it! Notice in Mark 11:23 how Christ instructs us to have faith in what we speak in accordance with God's word, whosoever shall say, believing that those things which he say shall come to pass! Spiritual Law in action, Faith and Love! We are to look to the unseen and not the seen physical world because all things change through the Word! Only believe, He says, have faith, it is done unto you according to your faith! That is why we are not to Fear, or be dismayed; Fear is negative faith! In Isaiah, the prophet speaks of why the people went into captivity, "because they have no knowledge". The Psalms and Proverbs speak a lot about, having the word of God in you, this is how to obtain spiritual knowledge and understanding. Actually, the entire Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, is the Word of God, the fountain of living water which keeps on giving to the believer. Glory to God, it is all quite marvelous!

timothyu · Jan 4, 2020

danielmears said:
Notice in Mark 11:23 how Christ instructs us to have faith in what we speak in accordance with God's word, whosoever shall say, believing that those things which he say shall come to pass!

Sure beats trying to defend the doctrines of man.

redleghunter · Jan 4, 2020

Kenny'sID said:
You misread my post, or, once again, someone got their post and mine confused with each other.

I'm saying:

This is one high maintenance OSAS crew.

I guess my point is if you take that one verse which equates salvation to deeds, it does not include the atonement of Jesus Christ. Why we need more information. Meaning what were these righteous deeds based on?

“Those who have done good” means what exactly? What is the good they have done?

timothyu · Jan 4, 2020

redleghunter said:
What is the good they have done?

Loved others as self thus obeying the will of God

Matt5 · Jan 4, 2020

Maybe the real answer is much simpler: Christians got into trouble when they joined Islam.

Don't look at Matthew 7:21-23. Look at Matthew 7:15-23 and also look at The Parable of the Ten Virgins (Matthew 25:1-13). They refer to the same thing.

A few years before the return of Jesus a fake Jesus appears and does miracles. He fools many Christians into joining Islam. This Jesus is an Islamic Jesus according to Islamic prophecy. With the help of the Islamic Mahdi (Anti-Christ) and demons, they force the world to convert to Islam. Islam is a demonic religion. When the real Jesus appears he won't let them into the wedding banquet because they joined Islam.

Robin Mauro · Jan 4, 2020

Zachm531 said:
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

I believe that many people in the church today have a misunderstanding of what the Lord is saying. Before I delve into this I want to clarify in saying that I'm not sure if this view has been proposed before or not. Also, I could be wrong, I am not claiming certainty.

Many people understand this verse to be saying that you need faith AND WORKS to be saved because Jesus tells the sinners(workers of iniquity/lawlessness) to depart from him. If this is the case it seems to contradict all of the other claims of Jesus and the disciples that salvation comes by faith.

I believe that Jesus is referring to groups such as Jehovas Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims etc.. and let me explain why.

These groups all have obscure and incorrect versions of Jesus Christ. Jehovas Witnesses believe that Jesus was the first MADE creation, Micheal the Archangel and that he is the brother of Lucifer. This is false according to scripture- See Hebrews 1 . The Mormons believe that Jesus was a man who through his obedience to the Father's law, became a god. This is also false. See Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 44:6 . and Muslims say that Jesus was just a prophet. This is false. See Hebrews 1:8 , Revelation 22:13 , Matthew 12:8 . Obviously there are many more examples to disprove all of these, but, you get my point. This is a false Jesus and we know that God doesn't fellowship or hear the unbelievers John 9:31

The thing that all man made religions have in common is the need for good works and the belief that good deeds outweighs bad deeds, and if you have more good then bad then you get to Heaven. The three groups I mentioned all believe in works based salvation. They believe that if they are obedient enough then they will be able to make it to Heaven. Of course we understand that this is false: Galatians 5:3 and Galatians 2:16 . If a man is to be justified by works then we are required to keep EVERY LAW. We know this is not possible and the author of Galatians states it clearly here Galatians 2:21 . If we are required to keep the law, then Jesus came for no reason. Hence if these people are trying to obtain salvation by works, then they are required to keep the whole of the law, which we have seen is impossible. Hence they fail and are therefore workers of lawlessness.

So on the last day, when the people of these groups say to Jesus: " Lord, Lord have we not done many GREAT WORKS in your name?" He will say "I never knew you". These people WERE doing GREAT WORKS but they had a false Jesus who wasn't the One and only TURE GOD, a Jesus who couldn't save by his work alone but also need their good works.

And when he calls them workers of iniquity, its not because they did not obey Gods law BUT quite the opposite, these people tried to be saved by the law. They were severed from Christ and fallen from grace ( Galatians 5:4 ) so they were required to keep the entire law! ( Galatians 5:3 ). We are not able to keep the entire law its impossible ( Romans 3:23 ).

James spoke of seeing a brother (or sister) in need and saying go, be well, but doing nothing to help them, then followed up with faith without works is dead, and this kind of faith ( bad paraphrase) will not save you.
Our works are a response to our faith, to obeying Jesus' command to love others as we love ourselves. Without works our faith is worthless: it shows we really do not believe.
We are not saved by works, but we just as surely are not saved without them. The Bible says both matter. Many people struggle with this, but these are two sides of the same coin. We were made for good works, but we do not do them in order to be saved - Jesus did that for us - we do them out of our love for our Lord Jesus, and our love for others.

redleghunter · Jan 4, 2020

timothyu said:
Loved others as self thus obeying the will of God

How did they accomplish this?

timothyu · Jan 4, 2020

Matt5 said:
When the real Jesus appears he won't let them into the wedding banquet because they joined Islam.

The entire system of man is anti-Christ in principle. Why not address the whole?

timothyu · Jan 4, 2020

Robin Mauro said:
Many people struggle with this,

They think they have to give up their 'riches' in order to do so, but it is a simple matter of simply sharing in times of need where one would appreciate the same in a similar situation. The pursuit of self interest can be balanced out with interest in others. The knowledge of good and evil became our downfall as the middle narrow road is often overlooked in favour of one or another. Look at those rich who supported Jesus and His Apostles. They were in the middle and were not condemned.

timothyu · Jan 4, 2020

redleghunter said:
How did they accomplish this?

See #76. It is not just a matter of action. It is a change in thinking that surpasses the concept i'll donate because i can get a tax break. Giving is giving of self.

redleghunter · Jan 4, 2020

timothyu said:
See #76. It is not just a matter of action. It is a change in thinking that surpasses the concept i'll donate because i can get a tax break. Giving is giving of self.

Where does Jesus dying for our sins and rising Dom the dead factor into all of this?

Gwendolynz · Jan 4, 2020

Zachm531 said:
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

I believe that many people in the church today have a misunderstanding of what the Lord is saying. Before I delve into this I want to clarify in saying that I'm not sure if this view has been proposed before or not. Also, I could be wrong, I am not claiming certainty.

Many people understand this verse to be saying that you need faith AND WORKS to be saved because Jesus tells the sinners(workers of iniquity/lawlessness) to depart from him. If this is the case it seems to contradict all of the other claims of Jesus and the disciples that salvation comes by faith.

I believe that Jesus is referring to groups such as Jehovas Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims etc.. and let me explain why.

These groups all have obscure and incorrect versions of Jesus Christ. Jehovas Witnesses believe that Jesus was the first MADE creation, Micheal the Archangel and that he is the brother of Lucifer. This is false according to scripture- See Hebrews 1 . The Mormons believe that Jesus was a man who through his obedience to the Father's law, became a god. This is also false. See Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 44:6 . and Muslims say that Jesus was just a prophet. This is false. See Hebrews 1:8 , Revelation 22:13 , Matthew 12:8 . Obviously there are many more examples to disprove all of these, but, you get my point. This is a false Jesus and we know that God doesn't fellowship or hear the unbelievers John 9:31

The thing that all man made religions have in common is the need for good works and the belief that good deeds outweighs bad deeds, and if you have more good then bad then you get to Heaven. The three groups I mentioned all believe in works based salvation. They believe that if they are obedient enough then they will be able to make it to Heaven. Of course we understand that this is false: Galatians 5:3 and Galatians 2:16 . If a man is to be justified by works then we are required to keep EVERY LAW. We know this is not possible and the author of Galatians states it clearly here Galatians 2:21 . If we are required to keep the law, then Jesus came for no reason. Hence if these people are trying to obtain salvation by works, then they are required to keep the whole of the law, which we have seen is impossible. Hence they fail and are therefore workers of lawlessness.

So on the last day, when the people of these groups say to Jesus: " Lord, Lord have we not done many GREAT WORKS in your name?" He will say "I never knew you". These people WERE doing GREAT WORKS but they had a false Jesus who wasn't the One and only TURE GOD, a Jesus who couldn't save by his work alone but also need their good works.

And when he calls them workers of iniquity, its not because they did not obey Gods law BUT quite the opposite, these people tried to be saved by the law. They were severed from Christ and fallen from grace ( Galatians 5:4 ) so they were required to keep the entire law! ( Galatians 5:3 ). We are not able to keep the entire law its impossible ( Romans 3:23 ).

Perhaps God does not slice humanity the way you and others think he does? What if 'some' Christians, Mormons, Muslims etc were pleasing to God, and the rest weren? In defining what is pleasing to God, many construct this huge 'edifice' of requirements and then try to keep secret their own failings.

Micah 6:8 8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

There is now, of course Jesus the Christ, and his words. I doubt that he would find judging others pleasing.

Kenny'sID · Jan 4, 2020

redleghunter said:
I guess my point is if you take that one verse which equates salvation to deeds, it does not include the atonement of Jesus Christ. Why we need more information. Meaning what were these righteous deeds based on?

Not every verse in the bible on salvation is going to include a mention of the atonement of Christ, it's assumed. You are looking way to hard to find defense here, and it's going bad already.

redleghunter said:
“Those who have done good” means what exactly? What is the good they have done?

You are gearing up to try to confuse a very simple and easy to understand warning from Christ...Do good or else.

No one here is going to be confused about what good and bad means, so I would suggests you not even go down that road.

"I never knew you'

Follower of Isa Al Masih

for love is of God

Follower of Isa Al Masih

Active Member

Active Member

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Thank You Jesus!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Thank You Jesus!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Thank You Jesus!

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads