jerry kelso

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There is only one king, reigning on one throne, over one kingdom. In His Davidic kingship, He rules the Israel of God - the redeemed of God; in His divine kingship, He rules all creation. These are two aspects of the one kingship - He is both God and man. This does not mean there are 2 kings, 2 kingdoms or 2 thrones. No. There are two aspects to Christ's kingship - human and divine.

Quit giving me the run around and answer my questions directly.
Most a millennialist believe Christ skips to the New Heaven and New Earth.
If he skips the millennial kingdom what kingdom is he giving back to the father? And is that kingdom spiritual or physical?Do you believe that God will tabernacle with men spiritually or physically?
Simple questions so give simple answers. Jerry Kelso
 
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sovereigngrace

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Quit giving me the run around and answer my questions directly.
Most a millennialist believe Christ skips to the New Heaven and New Earth.
If he skips the millennial kingdom what kingdom is he giving back to the father? And is that kingdom spiritual or physical?Do you believe that God will tabernacle with men spiritually or physically?
Simple questions so give simple answers. Jerry Kelso

He is handing up His spiritual kingdom to His Father when He comes. As it says in 1 Corinthians 15, then comes the end. It is the end of the world. It is then that the new heavens and new earth are introduced.
 
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jerry kelso

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He is handing up his spiritual kingdom to His Father when He comes. As it says in 1 Corinthians 15, then comes the end. It is the end of the world. It is then that the new heavens and new earth are introduced.

sovereigngrace,

1. Is the new Heaven and new earth spiritual or physical?
Does God tabernacle with men spiritual or physical? Jerry Kelso
 
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Biblewriter

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There is no need, or biblical requirement for there God to raise up a geopolitical racist old-covenant kingdom. You have yet to show me any NT Scripture that would confirm that. I have shown you multiple scriptures that prove that God's kingdom today is spiritual.

This is nothing short of rebellion against the authority of the word of God. The fact that a promise was not repeated in the part of the Bible you want to see it in would be a trivial fact, even if t were correct. For if God made a promise, He bound Himself to keep that promise.

But in this case, your claim is not even correct. The New Testament clearly and repeatedly teaches exactly what you here falsely claim it does not teach, both in the direct words of our Lord himself, and in the words of the Holy Spirit, given through the Apostles. We read, for instance, that Jesus said:

“37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ” (Matthew 23:37-39)

And:

“34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing! 35 See! Your house is left to you desolate; and assuredly, I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ” (Luke 13:34-35)

We need to notice what was addressed here. These words were not addressed to the individuals standing around. Nor were they addressed to the priests that had rejected Him. Nor to the Pharisees and Sadducees. They were addressed, and specifically addressed, to a city, Jerusalem. Jesus said, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!” (And in both passages, the wording of this sentence is identical.) The fact that Jesus accused Jerusalem of killing “the prophets” and of stoning “those who are sent to her,” Jesus was unquestionably addressing the city of Jerusalem in a multi-generational sense.

Why is this important? Because Jesus did not say that Jerusalem would see Him no more “unless” they said “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!” He said it would see Him no more “till” or “until” until it said this. The Greek word translated “till” in Matthew 23:39 is the same one translated “until” in Luke 13:35. This is the Greek word “heos” (word number 2193 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary.) In the KJV, this Greek word is translated “till” 39 times, “until” 25 times, “unto” 27 times, and “to” 16 times. This Greek word does not imply that the event referred to “might” happen. It implies that the event “will” eventually happen. This is not interpretation. It is the basic meaning of the Greek word used in these two scriptures. So Jesus was unquestionably saying that there was a time coming, in which this wicked and rebellious city would finally say, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!” (And again, in this sentence as well, the wording of both of these passages is identical.)

So from these two passages alone, we know that there will be a day when Jerusalem will say, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!” This would be plain even if no other passage spoke of it. But that is not all we see in these passages. We also see, in the words of our Lord Jesus himself, that although Israel is now rejected, that rejection is only temporary, and will end when they finally say “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord”

Again, we read:

“24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24)

And:

“25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” (Romans 11:25)

Again, the Greek word translated “until” in these two passages is also the same. But for these two passages, the Greek word is “achri.” (word number 891 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) In the KJV, this word is translated “until” 16 times, “unto” 13 times, “till” 6 times, and “even to” 2 times. (It is also translated “while” 2 times, but only if accompanied by the Greek word “hos,” word number 3739 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary, which means “who,” “which,” “what,” or “that.”)

But again, we need to notice the subject of these two pronouncements. The first pronouncement is, as in the first two passages we noticed, about the city of Jerusalem. Now some want to pretend that the words, “until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled,” refer to the events of A.D.70, when the Romans sacked Jerusalem. There can be zero doubt that the entire preceding part of this paragraph referred to this time. For it says:

“20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles.” (Luke 21:20-24a)

But we need to notice that the time specified by the words “until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled” does not end at the fall of Jerusalem. Instead of ending at that time, it begins at that time, running forward to an undefined later time. (I speak here only of the specific wording of this sentence. For the ending of that time is indeed specified, and clearly specified, in other scriptures.) So again this statement, which speaks of the city of Jerusalem over a period of time that is not defined in this passage, is again speaking of that city in a multi-generational sense.

But what of the second of the two pronouncements we are currently discussing? In Romans 11:25 we read that “blindness in part has happened to Israel.” Now many want to insist that in the New Testament, “Israel” means “the church.” But this passage is clearly not saying that “blindness in part” has happened to “the church.” Such an idea would be contrary to many other scriptures, such as John 16:13, where we read, “However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth.” So this passage is clearly speaking of the physical nation of Israel.

This is indeed made crystal clear when the entirety of this very long passage is considered. For it begins three chapters earlier by clearly speaking of Paul’s “brethren,” his “countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites.” (Romans 9:3-4a) So this pronouncement is very unquestionably about the nation of Israel. And it unquestionably speaks of a judicial “ blindness” inflicted upon that ancient and evil nation. But that “blindness”is is only “in part,” and this “blindness” is unquestionably temporary. For rather than being permanent, it is only “until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” And this word “until” clearly speaks of a time when that judicial blindness will end. It could hardly be more obvious that this time has not yet come, for the vast bulk of that nation remains partially blinded to spiritual truth, even to the present day. But when “the fullness of the Gentiles has come in,” that judicially inflicted blindness will come to an end.

When Luke 21:24 and Romans 11:25 are examined together, it becomes obvious that they both refer to the same time, that is, that the time when “the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled,” or the time when “the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” So we see that both of these passages say, in one case, that “Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles,” or, in the other case, “Israel” is inflicted with a judicial “blindness,” until that time. And that time is when “the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled,” or when “the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.”

Both of the two Greek words translated “till” or “until” in these four passages, clearly indicate a temporary condition, that will have a distinctive ending. Their difference is that “heos,” which is used in Matthew 23:39 and Luke 13:35, stresses that the condition described will continue until the time is reached, while “achri,” which is used in Luke 21:24 and Romans 11:25, stresses that the condition described will end at a specific time.

(continued)


So now we have seen four different places in the New Testament, all of which clearly show that the current rejection of Israel is only temporary, and that it will end at a specific time, which is still future even now, nearly two thousand years since these pronouncements were made.
 
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(continued from post #884)
But now we need to go back and re-consider the last of these four passages we have noticed.

“25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” (Romans 11:25)

For this passage continues as follows:

“26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: ‘The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.’ 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:26-29)

The context of this entire passage, Romans 11:25-29, existing as it does in immediate connection with verse 25, highlights its unified message. The judicial “blindness” inflicted upon Israel is only temporary, “and so all Israel will be saved.” “For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.” Between these statements we read that even though “they are enemies for your sakes,” they yet remain “beloved for the sake of the fathers.” That is, this passage is not speaking of that portion of Israel that has come to faith in Crist, but of that portion of that ancient and rebellious nation that have rejected the message of the gospel. This is the context of both the statement that “all Israel will be saved” and the statement that “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.” This message is stated so clearly that nothing but prejudice can keep a person from understanding it.

This is also stated in Romans 9, where we read:

“25 As He says also in Hosea: ‘I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved.’ ‘26 And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, “You are not My people,” There they shall be called sons of the living God.’ ” (Romans 9:25-26)

In the very place “where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ There they shall be called sons of the living God.” That is the context given by the Holy Spirit himself, speaking through the Apostle Paul, for the words “I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved.”

Now we are not told exactly where Hosea was standing when God told him, “Call his name Lo-Ammi, For you are not My people, And I will not be your God.” (Hosea 1:9) But as he was a prophet of Judah, this would have been said somewhere in Judea, the country now called Israel. So here, in Romans 9:25, which is a quotation from Hosea 1:10, the Holy Spirit clearly said that there was a day coming when, within the physical borders of the modern nation of Israel, the people of Israel “shall be called sons of the living God.”

But this brings us back to the beginnings of this ninth chapter of Romans, where we read:

“1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.” (Romans 9:1-5)
We noticed earlier that this passage clearly defines the people under discussion as Paul’s “brethren,” his “countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites.” Thus, there can be zero question that the people group under discussion is the individuals that made up the fleshly nation of Israel. There is absolutely no way this can be rationally “spiritualized” to mean “the church.” Yet this same people group remains the subject throughout these entire three chapters, for we read of them again in chapter eleven, that, “Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.” (Romans 11:28)

So this entire three chapter section (Romans 9-11) is about the fleshly nation of Israel, who were “enemies” “concerning the gospel.” That is, the people under discussion had not accepted the gospel, and were on their way to a lost eternity. But, even though tthey were “enemies,” yet they were still “beloved for the sake of the fathers.” And then comes a stunning declaration, which is the death forever for the claim that god has permanently rejected Israel. “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:29)

We need to notice that the context of this declaration that “the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” is the fact that Paul’s “brethren,” his “countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites,” are “enemies” “concerning the gospel.” Yet they “are beloved for the sake of the fathers.”

We are not only explicitly told of the temporary nature of Israel’s rejection, we are also told the reason for this. And again, the words are too plain to misunderstand, unless they are approached by a prejudiced mind. God did not reject Israel in condemnation, but to provoke them to jealousy. This is not a tactic of someone who has stopped loving someone and turned to another. It is a tactic of someone who is still in love, and who is working to win back the love of whoever had spurned their love. So we read:

“19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says: ‘I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation, I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.’ ” (Romans 10:19)

And again we read:

“11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! 13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?” (Romans 11:11-15)

So God has not only clearly told us that the reason for Israel’s rejection is only to woo them back to himself. He has just as clearly told us that when he has accomplished that purpose, the result of Israel’s restoration will not mean a loss of blessing to the gentiles, but rather, as it were, a very revival of “life from the dead.”

And we need to notice that this eventual restoration of Israel is not stated here as a new revelation, but rather referred to as a well established fact. The Holy Spirit does not say, “if they are revived, it will be life from the dead,” but “what will their acceptance be but life from the dead.” That is, the Christian’s prior knowledge of this acceptance is simply assumed in this scripture.

And why would this knowledge of Israel’s eventual acceptance be simply assumed here? Because it had already been stated, and explicitly stated, in too many places to count.

A great many of these explicit statements that God will indeed accomplish this purpose of winning back their hearts are in the Old Testament. So they are outside of the subject matter of this article. But concerning these very many Old Testament statements about this, we need to notice what Jesus said concerning the rich man and Lazarus:

“29Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ” (Luke 16:29-31)

So the scriptures warn us that we are responsible to heed the words of “Moses and the prophets.” And in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit clearly refers to these Old Testament prophecies, saying, “19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.” (Acts 3:19-21)

This future period is here called two things. It is first called “times of refreshing” and then called “the times of restoration of all things.” The Greek word here translated “of refreshing” is “anapsuxeos,” (word number 403 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary,) which properly means a “recovery of breath,” and thus figuratively means “revival.” And the Greek word translated “of restoration” is “apokatastaseos,” (word number 605 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary,) which means “reconstitution.” What we need to realize from this, is that neither of these words means, or even implies, a time of judgment. Both of these words mean a restoration, not a time of destruction. That is, the Holy Spirit, here quoting Peter through Luke, is specifically saying that there is a time coming when all things will be restored, and then explicitly says that this is the time of “which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.”

So here we have a NEW TESTAMENT statement, made after the new covenant was ALREADY in force, that the things “which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began” are still in the future, and will still happen. That is, these MANY promises still apply. These are the promises which, as we previously saw in Romans 9:3-4, still “pertain” to Paul’s “brethren,” his “countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites.”

And finally, there is one more New Testament scripture that mentions this future restoration of Israel.
“27Then Peter answered and said to Him, ‘See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?’ 28So Jesus said to them, ‘Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.’ ” (Matthew 19:27-28)

The Greek word here translated “regeneration” is “paliggenesia.” (word number 3824 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) In the Greek this is a compound word made by connecting the Greek word “palin,” (word number 3825 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary,) which means “once more,” and the Greek word “genesis,” (word number1078 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary,) which means “nativity,” or “birth.” So once again, this word clearly speaks of a time of restoration, not a time of destruction. But in this time the twelve Apostles “will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” Thus we clearly read, in the New Testament, of a future rebirth, in which the twelve apostles will judge “the twelve tribes of Israel.” Not just Judah, but all twelve tribes, just as repeatedly promised in the Old Testament.

So in conclusion, there is simply no rational escape from the fact that, not just the Old Testament, but also the New Testament, clearly and repeatedly states that there is a time coming in the future, in which the ancient nation of Israel will be restored.
 
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sovereigngrace

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sovereigngrace,

1. Is the new Heaven and new earth spiritual or physical?
Does God tabernacle with men spiritual or physical? Jerry Kelso

The new heaven and new earth will both be physical and spiritual. The elect and creation will be physically glorified when He physically comes to tabernacle with man forever in a perfect environment.
 
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jerry kelso

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The new heaven and new earth will both be physical and spiritual. The elect and creation will be physically glorified when He physically comes to tabernacle with man forever in a perfect environment.

sovereigngrace,

1. Like a good a millennialist.

2. When you spiritualized the scripture you can’t be consistent.
You spiritualize the 1000 year reign. So who are we going to rule and reign over?
Also, Satan is not cast into the lake of fire until 1000 years after Armageddon where the beast and false prophet have been for 1000 years.
2. There is no scripture that say God will make a full end to Israel.
It does say he will chastise them and he will make the land of Judah desolate but not a full end. His promises are eternal and he cannot lie.
Your allegorical interpretation fails, Your one sidedness fails, and Your inconsistency fails.
You know a lot of scripture but your context is out of context, out of control and fails. Jerry Kelso
 
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sovereigngrace

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This is nothing short of rebellion against the authority of the word of God. The fact that a promise was not repeated in the part of the Bible you want to see it in would be a trivial fact, even if t were correct. For if God made a promise, He bound Himself to keep that promise.

So you are back?

This is a reply to both of your posts.

Yes, every knee will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (not just Israel) when Jesus comes back at the consummation of all things to judge the righteous and the wicked. Matthew 23:37-39 and Luke 13:34-35 show that the old covenant apparatus and the theocratic OT system is gone until the end of time, at Christ's climactic second coming. This negates your Pretrib rapture and 7-years-trib.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hendoth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


The Greek phrase heōs an reinforces my supposition. Their temple is left desolate until the end. Why? The life, death and resurrection of Christ rendered it eternally redundant.

Daniel 9:27 reinforces this, “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

This whole passage is focused upon Calvary and the irreversible effect it had on Israel’s religious sacrifices and the oblations. The first thing we see is that in God’s economy it caused them to cease. In the economy of the religious Jews at the time of Calvary they stubbornly and sinfully continued to practice their sacrifices. The whole focus of Jewish religious worship was centered on the temple. It was here that the Jews came to make their typical atoning sacrifices.

Did not Christ fulfil every requirement demanded of Him reference atonement and substitution? Was it not God that made Jerusalem desolate for it's overspreading of abominations (Matthew 23 and Luke 13)? This event happened exactly 40 years after Calvary (within a generation, as predicted).

The duration of this desolation lasts until the Lord’s glorious Second Advent. This reading declares, “he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation.”
 
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This is nothing short of rebellion against the authority of the word of God. The fact that a promise was not repeated in the part of the Bible you want to see it in would be a trivial fact, even if t were correct. For if God made a promise, He bound Himself to keep that promise.

This is a reply to both of your posts.

Jerusalem below

The Pretrib obsession with national Israel and physical Jerusalem is unbiblical. They are stuck in the OT. Old Jerusalem is likened in this new covenant period unto Sodom and Egypt in Revelation 11. Revelation 11:8 describes physical Jerusalem today as: “the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.” This description was definitely not intended to be a commendation of Jerusalem, but to describe it for exactly what it was/is. Many modern pro-Israel commentators today would probably throw the charge of anti-Semitic at such a charge, however, this indictment came from the Holy Spirit.

Jerusalem, Sodom and Egypt are three very prominent biblical places, all of which are notable for their great rebellion against Almighty God and His repeated warnings. Notwithstanding, they are all especially remembered for the terrible judgment that befell them as a consequence of their iniquitous transgressions. All, significantly, stand to this day as a solemn and perpetual warning of how God deals with the wicked and their gross disobedience against His precepts.

Christ highlighted that the cities of Israel, who heard the Gospel and rejected the same, were under greater damnation than those cities who had never heard the truth. In fact, He said that they were in a worse place than Sodom and Gomorrah. He rebuked them in Matthew 10:15: “Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.” This was a damning indictment upon the religious Jews of Christ’s day.

This whole sea-change can be observed at the time when the woman of Samaria declared unto Jesus, in John 4:19-24, “Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.”

Christ revealingly responded, “Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth.”

Here we see the movement away from a central geographical worship (and location), to the nations of the earth. This change came with the earthly ministry of Christ and the willful rejection of Him by the Jews. The theocratic nation was removed and replaced by a spiritual nation throughout all nations. Today we have no need to look for a brick temple in Jerusalem because we have entered into a spiritual edifice found throughout the world. God’s chosen people are “they that worship him [God] ... in spirit and in truth” (John 4:24). God’s people are a spiritual people who are spiritually circumcised.

The new structure our Lord spoke of here was a spiritual house and relates to Himself and the building of His spiritual body – the Church. Any Jew interpreting these words in a literal sense would have mistakenly assumed that the hope for the nations in the last days would arise in the form of the physical temporal earthly temple in Jerusalem rather than a new spiritual temple throughout the world.

What Christ was teaching here was that a new economy was being introduced through His earthly ministry that would forever replace the old. No longer would the worship of the living God be constrained to a natural land-mass or be centered upon a physical temporal brick building built with hands in earthly Jerusalem, rather, it would now be concentrated in a spiritual eternal temple (the redeemed Church) which is spiritually located within the heavenly New Jerusalem. That temple would not be restricted to one ethnic nation but would rather be situated throughout all the nations of the world.

Before His death, in Matthew 23, we see Christ condemning the Jews rejection of Himself (and His impending atonement). He thus pronounced eight ‘woes’ upon them, and declared, “ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?”

He continued, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.”

This was a prologue to what He was going to say, in Matthew 24. After all, there is no chapter divisions in the original. The next verses and chapter – Matthew 24:1-2 – then significantly commences, “And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Luke’s account embodies both the end of Matthew 23 and the beginning Matthew 24, saying, “And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it” (Luke 19:41). The disciples asked two important questions in response, in Matthew 24. Christ then said, “if thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes” (Luke 19:42).

And continues, “for the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation” (Luke 19:43-44).

As you get into the New Testament you quickly realize that physical Jerusalem is no longer considered true Zion (or Sion). Under the new covenant, Zion is heavenly, spiritual and eternal not earthly, physical and temporal. Natural Jerusalem was decimated because of the rejection of their Messiah in AD70. Christ-rejecting Israel was stripped of its favored position by rejecting its Messiah. It is depicted in Scripture as an example of religious apostasy and stubborn rebellion.

Christ’s denunciations are in full keeping with what Paul taught of the earthly Jerusalem in Galatians 4:25, where he said, “Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.”

We see the two Jerusalems compared and contrasted here, representing two different distinct peoples – God’s elect and the lost. The earthly city is a symbol of bondage, ruin and rebellion, whereas the heavenly city is used as a picture of freedom and spiritual prosperity. Unfortunately, many today look to the wrong Jerusalem and elevate the wrong Israel. They seem to forget: the old temporal earthly type has been replaced by the new heavenly eternal reality.

Paul continues, “Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son [Jerusalem below and her offspring]: for the son of the bondwoman shall NOT be heir with the son of the freewoman [those who belong to Jerusalem above]. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman [Jerusalem below], but of the free [Jerusalem above]” (Galatians 4:28-31).

The offspring of the bondwoman relates to the natural progeny of Abraham “after the flesh.” The Holy Spirit instructs: “Cast out the bondwoman and her son.” Why? “For the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” The fact is, they are not the children of promise. Under the new covenant, natural Jerusalem is no longer the Zion of God. That city and its children (natural Israelis) are considered to be in religious bondage. Those who belong to true Jerusalem (heavenly Jerusalem) are all those that know Christ. Those who do not know Christ are in bondage and are of their father the devil.

Hebrews 11:8-10 describes how our great father of the faith, the Patriarch, Abraham looked for that great heavenly city, saying, “By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.”

The Greek word for “strange” here (as in “strange country") is allotrios which actually means another's, or not one's own; by extension foreign, not akin, hostile. The earthly Promised Land was not the true home of God’s Old Testament people. It was not the place of true peace and rest. Many enemies resided within those borders, and much trouble and strife continued there even when Israel took her promised borders. The children of Israel were indeed “strangers and pilgrims on the earth.” This world was not their home. Basically, they were strangers in a strange land.

Hebrews 11:8-10 is clearly talking about Old Testament earthly Israel. It is talking about the ancient promised land. The text is talking about the patriarchs’ sojourn in the earthly Canaan land. It notably describes Abraham’s experience there as “a stranger in a foreign country.” There is no other interpretation. It also describes his honorable son Isaac and grandson Jacob’s experiences to be the same as his own. This totally blows apart the premillennialist fixation with the Old Testament promised land. This shows that physical Israel and its ancient boundaries were never intended to be the true promised land or the eternal inheritance. It confirms that it was never envisioned to be the eternal possession of natural Israel or God’s people. It was clearly conditional and temporal land.

Hebrews 11:9 tells us that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were “the heirs with him of the same promise” (Hebrews 11:9). What promise? The next verse explains: “For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God” (Hebrews 11:10).

The Patriarchs eyes were on higher, better and longer-lasting things than Canaan. This is something our Dispensational brethren would be wise to imitate. The Patriarchs eyes were on the heavenly city that Christ is preparing for those that are His. Their eyes were upon eternal matters. Their focus was heavenly. Even though they were promised an earthly piece of real estate their hope was always heavenly. It says here that Abraham: “looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.” That city was clearly the New Jerusalem. The possession of this city has been the goal of every believer from the beginning.

Hebrews 11:13-16 says, specifically speaking of the great Old Testament champions of faith, “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”

Here, in easily comprehensible language, we see the focus and overriding desire of these Old Testament heroes of the faith (nearly all of whom had accessed the old Jerusalem in their lifetime) revealed. They plainly desired a “prepared” heavenly city. Like Abraham and the Old Testament saints of old, our eyes should be fixed upon another country, not an earthly, and a city that is not built with hands or can be touched or visited in this fleeting life. This is repeated throughout the New Testament. The children of God regardless of their birthday are born from above.

It wasn’t just Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that were strangers in their ethnic homeland; so were all the rest of the old covenant saints who populated national Israel. Hebrews 11:12 describes Abraham’s natural seed as “so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. the sand of the sea.” And even though most of them at some juncture populated the area promised from the Euphrates River to the River of Egypt, the Hebrew writer testifies to the fact that “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth” (Hebrews 11:13).

Obviously, the taking of the natural, earthly, temporal land was not what it was all about. There was something better, higher and longer-lasting that was promised to them that would fulfil Israel’s deepest desires – something greater than real estate in the Middle East. It was the Messiah Jesus Christ and the perfected state that comes at His appearing in the form of the new corrupt-free, sin-free, death-free, wicked-free, eternal perfect earth.

Even though the Old Testament giants of the faith are described as “not having received the promises,” the Scripture say that they “seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them.” What is more, they “confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth”

The Old Testament saints, like those in the New Testament, looked forth to a “prepared” eternal heavenly city, not a physical temporal earthly one. Their eyes were therefore not below but above. Scripture plainly tells us that that “place” is called the New Jerusalem – the eternal home of the beloved. The Premillennialist that looks for old Jerusalem at the Second Coming is evidently focused upon the wrong city.

When Hebrews says: God has “prepared” for them (the Old Testament saints) a city (Hebrews 11:16), it is not talking about earthly carnal man-made Jerusalem, that has rejected and killed Christ, the prophets and the Apostles. It is not talking about a city that is denounced under the new covenant by the Holy Spirit as “spiritually … called Sodom and Egypt” (Revelation 11:8) and is further condemned as being “in bondage with her children” in Galatians 4:25. This is speaking of the heavenly city, which we belong to today, which is “free.” This is the only city that God is preparing! It is unbiblical and nonsensical to believe that he is preparing earthly Jerusalem for the saints. The new Jerusalem is being prepared in heaven, as we can see through many Scriptures.

Like Abraham and the Old Testament saints of old, our eyes should be fixed upon another country, not an earthly, and a city that is not built with hands or can be touched or visited in this fleeting life. That “place,” which Christ is preparing us, and for which His people are patiently waiting, is identified as an actual city in Hebrews 13:14. The passage says, for here (that is on this earth) have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.” The city we look for is not a physical temporal earthly city sitting in the center of natural Israel, but rather a heavenly eternal city. It is the New Jerusalem, which Christ is presently preparing. Earthly Jerusalem is clearly with us now, and under judgment, whereas the New Jerusalem in all its glory is still to come.
 
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sovereigngrace

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sovereigngrace,

1. Like a good a millennialist.

2. When you spiritualized the scripture you can’t be consistent.
You spiritualize the 1000 year reign. So who are we going to rule and reign over?
Also, Satan is not cast into the lake of fire until 1000 years after Armageddon where the beast and false prophet have been for 1000 years.
2. There is no scripture that say God will make a full end to Israel.
It does say he will chastise them and he will make the land of Judah desolate but not a full end. His promises are eternal and he cannot lie.
Your allegorical interpretation fails, Your one sidedness fails, and Your inconsistency fails.
You know a lot of scripture but your context is out of context, out of control and fails. Jerry Kelso

We are reigning now spiritually. The saints are reigning with Christ in heaven and on earth, as He reigns. The Church currently exists in its heavenly authority procured for them by Christ who has already defeated every enemy. The introduction of the kingdom of God through Christ’s earthly ministry saw the beginning of Christ’s assault upon the global control of Satan. It is through the finished work of Calvary that the Church now walks in victory. The responsibility of the Church is to simply enter into the reality of that great eternal work by faith. We reside on a far higher spiritual plane than this sin-cursed earth, namely in the throne-room of God. Abiding there ensures we walk by His will, His commands and His blueprint rather than our own carnal desires.

Please read Romans 5:17, “For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

Ephesians 1:3 also supports, saying, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.”

Ephesians 2:5-6, says, speaking of God, “Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

This is obviously speaking of salvation. Now that we are born from above we are counted as spiritually reigning with Christ.

Romans 8:16-18 says, “The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified with [him].”

As we can see, we are currently "joint-heirs with Christ." We reign because He reigns. When we put on Christ in salvation we entered into His kingdom and therefore came under His kingship, which resulted in us being placed in heavenly authority with kingly robes. The elect of God today “are ambassadors for Christ” (2 Corinthians 5:20). The reason being, “he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

The Greek word for heir is kleronomos meaning ‘getting by apportionment’, it can be interpreted ‘an inheritor or a possessor’. This is what happens upon salvation, we were adopted into the family of God and became one with Christ, whereupon, through Christ, we assumed a heavenly inheritance.

God exercises divine power over all creation and He exercise His divine through His new creation. The people of God carry incredible authority of His children. They are on this earth to evade Satan’s territory, curtail his efforts, overcome his power and plunder his house,

John says in Revelation 1:5-6, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made (aorist active indicative) us kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church presently – intra-Advent, Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”
 
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Dkml

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I would like you to address the actual content of Biblewriters post. I can only conclude you don't have the ability to do this. Instead all I see is various scriptures strung together with your commentary that does not deal directly with his posts.
 
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sovereigngrace

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(continued from post #884)
But now we need to go back and re-consider the last of these four passages we have noticed.

“25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” (Romans 11:25)

For this passage continues as follows:

“26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: ‘The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.’ 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:26-29)

The context of this entire passage, Romans 11:25-29, existing as it does in immediate connection with verse 25, highlights its unified message. The judicial “blindness” inflicted upon Israel is only temporary, “and so all Israel will be saved.” “For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.” Between these statements we read that even though “they are enemies for your sakes,” they yet remain “beloved for the sake of the fathers.” That is, this passage is not speaking of that portion of Israel that has come to faith in Crist, but of that portion of that ancient and rebellious nation that have rejected the message of the gospel. This is the context of both the statement that “all Israel will be saved” and the statement that “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.” This message is stated so clearly that nothing but prejudice can keep a person from understanding it.

This is also stated in Romans 9, where we read:

“25 As He says also in Hosea: ‘I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved.’ ‘26 And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, “You are not My people,” There they shall be called sons of the living God.’ ” (Romans 9:25-26)

In the very place “where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ There they shall be called sons of the living God.” That is the context given by the Holy Spirit himself, speaking through the Apostle Paul, for the words “I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved.”

Now we are not told exactly where Hosea was standing when God told him, “Call his name Lo-Ammi, For you are not My people, And I will not be your God.” (Hosea 1:9) But as he was a prophet of Judah, this would have been said somewhere in Judea, the country now called Israel. So here, in Romans 9:25, which is a quotation from Hosea 1:10, the Holy Spirit clearly said that there was a day coming when, within the physical borders of the modern nation of Israel, the people of Israel “shall be called sons of the living God.”

But this brings us back to the beginnings of this ninth chapter of Romans, where we read:

“1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.” (Romans 9:1-5)
We noticed earlier that this passage clearly defines the people under discussion as Paul’s “brethren,” his “countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites.” Thus, there can be zero question that the people group under discussion is the individuals that made up the fleshly nation of Israel. There is absolutely no way this can be rationally “spiritualized” to mean “the church.” Yet this same people group remains the subject throughout these entire three chapters, for we read of them again in chapter eleven, that, “Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.” (Romans 11:28)

So this entire three chapter section (Romans 9-11) is about the fleshly nation of Israel, who were “enemies” “concerning the gospel.” That is, the people under discussion had not accepted the gospel, and were on their way to a lost eternity. But, even though tthey were “enemies,” yet they were still “beloved for the sake of the fathers.” And then comes a stunning declaration, which is the death forever for the claim that god has permanently rejected Israel. “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:29)

We need to notice that the context of this declaration that “the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” is the fact that Paul’s “brethren,” his “countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites,” are “enemies” “concerning the gospel.” Yet they “are beloved for the sake of the fathers.”

We are not only explicitly told of the temporary nature of Israel’s rejection, we are also told the reason for this. And again, the words are too plain to misunderstand, unless they are approached by a prejudiced mind. God did not reject Israel in condemnation, but to provoke them to jealousy. This is not a tactic of someone who has stopped loving someone and turned to another. It is a tactic of someone who is still in love, and who is working to win back the love of whoever had spurned their love. So we read:

“19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says: ‘I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation, I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.’ ” (Romans 10:19)

And again we read:

“11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! 13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?” (Romans 11:11-15)

So God has not only clearly told us that the reason for Israel’s rejection is only to woo them back to himself. He has just as clearly told us that when he has accomplished that purpose, the result of Israel’s restoration will not mean a loss of blessing to the gentiles, but rather, as it were, a very revival of “life from the dead.”

And we need to notice that this eventual restoration of Israel is not stated here as a new revelation, but rather referred to as a well established fact. The Holy Spirit does not say, “if they are revived, it will be life from the dead,” but “what will their acceptance be but life from the dead.” That is, the Christian’s prior knowledge of this acceptance is simply assumed in this scripture.

And why would this knowledge of Israel’s eventual acceptance be simply assumed here? Because it had already been stated, and explicitly stated, in too many places to count.

A great many of these explicit statements that God will indeed accomplish this purpose of winning back their hearts are in the Old Testament. So they are outside of the subject matter of this article. But concerning these very many Old Testament statements about this, we need to notice what Jesus said concerning the rich man and Lazarus:

“29Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ” (Luke 16:29-31)

So the scriptures warn us that we are responsible to heed the words of “Moses and the prophets.” And in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit clearly refers to these Old Testament prophecies, saying, “19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.” (Acts 3:19-21)

This future period is here called two things. It is first called “times of refreshing” and then called “the times of restoration of all things.” The Greek word here translated “of refreshing” is “anapsuxeos,” (word number 403 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary,) which properly means a “recovery of breath,” and thus figuratively means “revival.” And the Greek word translated “of restoration” is “apokatastaseos,” (word number 605 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary,) which means “reconstitution.” What we need to realize from this, is that neither of these words means, or even implies, a time of judgment. Both of these words mean a restoration, not a time of destruction. That is, the Holy Spirit, here quoting Peter through Luke, is specifically saying that there is a time coming when all things will be restored, and then explicitly says that this is the time of “which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.”

So here we have a NEW TESTAMENT statement, made after the new covenant was ALREADY in force, that the things “which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began” are still in the future, and will still happen. That is, these MANY promises still apply. These are the promises which, as we previously saw in Romans 9:3-4, still “pertain” to Paul’s “brethren,” his “countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites.”

And finally, there is one more New Testament scripture that mentions this future restoration of Israel.
“27Then Peter answered and said to Him, ‘See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?’ 28So Jesus said to them, ‘Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.’ ” (Matthew 19:27-28)

The Greek word here translated “regeneration” is “paliggenesia.” (word number 3824 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) In the Greek this is a compound word made by connecting the Greek word “palin,” (word number 3825 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary,) which means “once more,” and the Greek word “genesis,” (word number1078 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary,) which means “nativity,” or “birth.” So once again, this word clearly speaks of a time of restoration, not a time of destruction. But in this time the twelve Apostles “will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” Thus we clearly read, in the New Testament, of a future rebirth, in which the twelve apostles will judge “the twelve tribes of Israel.” Not just Judah, but all twelve tribes, just as repeatedly promised in the Old Testament.

So in conclusion, there is simply no rational escape from the fact that, not just the Old Testament, but also the New Testament, clearly and repeatedly states that there is a time coming in the future, in which the ancient nation of Israel will be restored.

There is nowhere in the New Testament that speaks about the restoration of the old covenant arrangement or the return of the Jews to Please of racial superiority or take their ancient land boundaries, as it was in the Old Testament. Premils often present Acts 1:6 and Romans 11 as supposed proof for a return of the Jews to the land, but neither of these passage remotely say what they say it is saying. In fact, there is nowhere in the New Testament says the Jews will be returned to their ancient borders.

Acts 1:6 doesn't say what they are wanting it to say. It was either a spiritual question in regard to salvation enveloping Israel again or it was a misguided question by short-sighted disciples that were totally parochial and often misled in regard to the great commission before Pentecost.

Christ did in no way here ignore or dismiss the disciples’ genuine spiritual query about natural Israel, as some would have us believe, rather the contrary, He directly addressed it in His response. In doing so, He reiterated His earlier teaching on the impending spiritual empowerment that would come upon the kingdom, just prior to the disciples’ interjection, only now He geographically confirmed that the spread of that message would embrace the actual nation of Israel (the locations of “Jerusalem,” “Judaea” and “Samaria” being identified). Nonetheless, in His response, He went further, widening out the disciples limited vision, which was still very localised, to encompass “the uttermost part of the earth.” The disciples would thus, after a short season of tarrying in Jerusalem and an indispensable empowerment from on high, be living “witnesses” of the kingdom of God not only in their own natural land as they had wondered but to all the nations of the world.

Whilst Paul said, “God is able,” there is no New Testament evidence that it will be in an Old Testament nationalistic sense. The old covenant structure has been destroyed forever. Whilst God graciously gave Israel 40 years to get it, only the elect did. Apostate Judaism remained wedded to their useless abolished system. Today they still do you earn for it. This system has been destroyed forever and replace with an eternal covenant. One that will not be altered or tampered with.

There is no teaching about the land in Romans 11 or anywhere else in the Scriptures. There is just a statement that God is able to bring salvation to Israel again. It doesn’t say “they will be grafted back into their own olive tree” it actually says: “God is able to graff them in again” – big difference. You quote a prediction of AD70 as your evidence here. Again, this highlights how bereft you are of NT evidence to support your desire of bringing back the old system where Israel enjoyed racial superiority over all the nations. That will never again happen; it has gone forever. All nations today are chosen and the boundaries of Israel have been extended outward to embrace the whole world (the Gentile nations).
 
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jerry kelso

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We are reigning now spiritually. The saints are reigning with Christ in heaven and on earth, as He reigns. The Church currently exists in its heavenly authority procured for them by Christ who has already defeated every enemy. The introduction of the kingdom of God through Christ’s earthly ministry saw the beginning of Christ’s assault upon the global control of Satan. It is through the finished work of Calvary that the Church now walks in victory. The responsibility of the Church is to simply enter into the reality of that great eternal work by faith. We reside on a far higher spiritual plane than this sin-cursed earth, namely in the throne-room of God. Abiding there ensures we walk by His will, His commands and His blueprint rather than our own carnal desires.

Please read Romans 5:17, “For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

Ephesians 1:3 also supports, saying, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.”

Ephesians 2:5-6, says, speaking of God, “Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

This is obviously speaking of salvation. Now that we are born from above we are counted as spiritually reigning with Christ.

Romans 8:16-18 says, “The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified with [him].”

As we can see, we are currently "joint-heirs with Christ." We reign because He reigns. When we put on Christ in salvation we entered into His kingdom and therefore came under His kingship, which resulted in us being placed in heavenly authority with kingly robes. The elect of God today “are ambassadors for Christ” (2 Corinthians 5:20). The reason being, “he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

The Greek word for heir is kleronomos meaning ‘getting by apportionment’, it can be interpreted ‘an inheritor or a possessor’. This is what happens upon salvation, we were adopted into the family of God and became one with Christ, whereupon, through Christ, we assumed a heavenly inheritance.

God exercises divine power over all creation and He exercise His divine through His new creation. The people of God carry incredible authority of His children. They are on this earth to evade Satan’s territory, curtail his efforts, overcome his power and plunder his house,

John says in Revelation 1:5-6, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made (aorist active indicative) us kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church presently – intra-Advent, Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

sovereigngrace,

1. You didn’t answer my questions and you continue to be one sided and put the spiritual application into the physical application. You think we are reigning today.
2nd Timothy 2:12 If we suffer we shall reign. The suffering is present, the reigning is future.
I have no quarrel about the throne room message for Christ is our intercessor who’s ever interceding.
We are to have faith in him for without faith it is impossible to please him.
We carry it out by obedience to God’s authority.
Now will you please answer the previous questions instead of rabbit trails that amount to nothing?
Jerry Kelso
 
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sovereigngrace

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sovereigngrace,

1. You didn’t answer my questions and you continue to be one sided and put the spiritual application into the physical application. You think we are reigning today.
2nd Timothy 2:12 If we suffer we shall reign. The suffering is present, the reigning is future.
I have no quarrel about the throne room message for Christ is our intercessor who’s ever interceding.
We are to have faith in him for without faith it is impossible to please him.
We carry it out by obedience to God’s authority.
Now will you please answer the previous questions instead of rabbit trails that amount to nothing?
Jerry Kelso

I did answer it! Not as you wanted, agreed. But I am not bound by Dispy teaching. I was in the process of responding to your other points. I wish you would be patient. By your silence i see you have no rebuttal to my previous points.

Because you are bound by the erroneous chronological approach Pretib places on Revelation, you will never see that Revelation 20 is the beginning of the last recap of seven in that apocalyptic book.

Revelation 20:11-15 says, I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled (pheugo) away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God … And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”

This is the Second Coming!

The Greek word pheugo is “a primary verb; to run away (literally or figuratively); by implication, to shun; by analogy, to vanish.”

Here we see “the earth and the heaven” flee away from the very presence of Christ coming upon His throne; it is clearly His appearing that ushers in the end. The arrival of the king of glory also sees the resurrection of the dead (righteous and wicked). Elsewhere in Scripture these things are located at His Coming. In fact, it is difficult to see how Premils can locate this event at anything other time than the Second Coming when we allow for the many plain climactic passages in Scripture.

Revelation 20:11-15 agrees with 2 Peter 3:10-13: “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

We see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The word en is used 2,831 times in Scripture and is overwhelmingly interpreted “in” or “within” throughout. Significantly, it is not translated as ‘near,’ ‘close to’ or ‘close by’ in any of these references. Support for the complete demolition attending the actual appearance of Christ in all His glory is also found in the same chapter in 2 Peter 3:12, which explains, “Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.”

1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise.
2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’,
3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.

And continues, “seeing then that all these things (that is 1-4) shall be luomenoon or dissolved / burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The old order of affairs is completely consumed by fire in a climactic conflagration in order to make way for the new eternal state. One cannot imagine how the Holy Spirit could have made the awful nature and full extent of God’s judgment any plainer to the human mind in this passage. This passage agrees totally with the all-consummating character of every other explicit Second Coming passage in Scripture; the day of the Lord sees the immediate destruction of the old heavens, elements and old earth, and the introduction of the “new heavens and a new earth” (2 Peter 3:13).

Revelation 20:11-15 agrees with what Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-44: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

After telling us that “Heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

Christ Comes, not the Father. The Father is in heaven. Christ then hands up the kingdom to His Father at the end. The judgment follows the Coming of Christ and the destruction of the new heavens and new earth. 1 Corinthians 15:23-24 confirms: "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

Revelation 16:15-20: “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.”
 
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Biblewriter

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This is a reply to both of your posts.

Jerusalem below

The Pretrib obsession with national Israel and physical Jerusalem is unbiblical.

You are using YOUR INTERPRETATION of the MEANINGS of a relatively small number of scriptures as a very lame excuse the deny the EXPLICIT STATEMENTS of a far larger number of scriptures. This is nothing but rebellion against the express word of God.

Ezekiel 36:1-10 very explicitly says that absolutely all of "the house of Israel" will again inhabit "the mountains of Israel," With "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken"


Ezekiel 47:13-20 goes so far as to precisely define the borders of the n=land in that day.


Isaiah 4:3 says "it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy--everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem."

And Jeremiah 31:34 says of that day that, "No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

And Jeremiah 31:37 says, "Thus says the LORD: "If heaven above can be measured, And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel For all that they have done, says the LORD."

|These are just a few of an host of scriptures that explicitly state the future restoration of Israel, in clear, lain, language.
 
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sovereigngrace

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You are using YOUR INTERPRETATION of the MEANINGS of a relatively small number of scriptures as a very lame excuse the deny the EXPLICIT STATEMENTS of a far larger number of scriptures. This is nothing but rebellion against the express word of God.

Ezekiel 36:1-10 very explicitly says that absolutely all of "the house of Israel" will again inhabit "the mountains of Israel," With "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken"


Ezekiel 47:13-20 goes so far as to precisely define the borders of the n=land in that day.


Isaiah 4:3 says "it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy--everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem."

And Jeremiah 31:34 says of that day that, "No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

And Jeremiah 31:37 says, "Thus says the LORD: "If heaven above can be measured, And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel For all that they have done, says the LORD."

|These are just a few of an host of scriptures that explicitly state the future restoration of Israel, in clear, lain, language.

Some supporting Scripture is better than none. Pretrib has nothing to support its elaborate theory. You have admitted that.

This above all happened to welcome the Messiah. Israel was brought back to the land.
 
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Biblewriter

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Some supporting Scripture is better than none. Pretrib has nothing to support its elaborate theory. You have admitted that.

This above all happened to welcome the Messiah. Israel was brought back to the land.
In the other thread, I already conclusively proved that your last post is a flat out lie.

But the problem with your claim of "some scripture" is that not even one of the scriptures you rely upon actually says what you claim it means. But MANY other scriptures EXPLICITLY SAY the very opposite.

You are stubbornly denying a doctrine that is explicitly stated in more scriptures that can be reasonably counted. This is blatant rebellion against the authority of scripture, and it is not of God.
 
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sovereigngrace

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In the other thread, I already conclusively proved that your last statement is a flat out lie.

Not so! When I asked you repeatedly: Can you show us Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ? You admitted

no scriptire explicitly states this succession.

I then replied:

"Ok, then. I will make it easier for you. Let me (reluctantly) take one of the crucial aspects of Pretrib out ("Christ's 3rd coming to the earth"), even though it is a key element of the Pretribulation paradigm. I will also take the word “immediately” out so that you have no excuse.

Please give us a rapture passage that shows a literal seven-year tribulation following it?"

You then admitted what many of us former Pretribbers have been arguing for years:

No scripture puts these two events together in a single passage.

I then asked: "Do you want me to reduce this question to simply a rapture of the Church??? Then we can all agree with that.
 
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Biblewriter

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Not so! When I asked you repeatedly: Can you show us Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ? You admitted



I then replied:

"Ok, then. I will make it easier for you. Let me (reluctantly) take one of the crucial aspects of Pretrib out ("Christ's 3rd coming to the earth"), even though it is a key element of the Pretribulation paradigm. I will also take the word “immediately” out so that you have no excuse.

Please give us a rapture passage that shows a literal seven-year tribulation following it?"

You then admitted what many of us former Pretribbers have been arguing for years:



I then asked: "Do you want me to reduce this question to simply a rapture of the Church??? Then we can all agree with that.

Your claim that, for a doctrine to be true, its entirety must be taught in a single scripture, is 100% pure nonsense. I gave you so much scriptural proof that it would not all fit into a single post. You reacted to this emotionally without even bothering to read it. For your answers clerarly demonstrated that you had no idea of even what I had said.
 
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Your claim that, for a doctrine to be true, its entirety must be taught in a single scripture, is 100% pure nonsense. I gave you so much scriptural proof that it would not all fit into a single post. You reacted to this emotionally without even bothering to read it. For your answers clerarly demonstrated that you had no idea of even what I had said.

LOL. What are you talking about "emotionally"? It was you that through an emotional tantrum in frustration and through all the toys out of the crib when you couldn't rebut the different scriptural arguments that I presented.

If you have calmed down I will repost where we left off and what you refused to address. You gave me no "scriptural proof," just Pretrib theories and speculations.

Again, you have made no direct response to the Postrib rebuttal. I'm afraid your interpretation simply does not make sense or add up.

The Greek word
tēreō actually comes up twice in Revelation 3:10: “Because thou hast kept (tēreō) the word of my patience, I also will keep (tēreō) thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

The word means:

to attend to carefully, take care of,
to guard,
to keep, one in the state in which he is,
to observe,
to reserve: to undergo something,


The Greek word tēreō derives from the word tēreō which literally means ‘a watch or guard (from loss or injury, properly, by keeping the eye upon’.

These words, and their generally-accepted meanings, ooze preservation, care and protection. They fit in with the constant biblical theme of God looking after His people in the midst of a dark evil world. What is more, they fit perfectly with the consistent context and usage of the word elsewhere in the inspired text.

A basic analysis of the original Greek text shows us that the meaning and thrust literally reads: Because thou hast kept or attended to or taken care of the word I also will keep or attend to or take care of thee.”

Basically:
“them that honour me I will honour” (1 Samuel 2:30).

An examination of the usage of the Greek word tereo elsewhere in Scripture shows the error of the Pretrib interpretation. In fact, it forbids such a forced, bias and mistaken meaning.

The Pretribulation interpretation of the word as ‘to remove or take away’ is shown to be totally untenable. It butchers the literal meaning of the word. It gives it a connotation that cannot in any way fit with its usage elsewhere in Scripture. In fact, it forces it to mean the opposite to what it actually means. Applying the Pretrib meaning to other texts that use the same word ends up changing the whole meaning and sense of multiple Scriptures. In fact, many end up saying the opposite to what they are actually saying. Let us look at some examples.

Contrasts

To highlight the irrational and nonsensical nature of Pretrib hermeneutics. We need to apply their mistaken interpretation to other passages that carry the same Greek word.

Matthew 19:17 reads:
“Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, (tēreō) keep the commandments.”

Pretrib would have Matthew 19:17 read: “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, (tēreō) remove or take away the commandments.”

This would be absurd. It expresses the opposite meaning to what is intended.

John 8:51 reads:
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man (tēreō) keep my saying, he shall never see death.”

Pretrib would have John 8:51 read: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man (tēreō) remove or take away my saying, he shall never see death.”

John 15:10-20 reads: “If ye (tēreō) keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have (tēreō) kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love … Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have (tēreō) kept my saying, they will (tēreō) keep yours also.”

Pretrib would have John 15:10-20 read: “If ye (tēreō) remove or take away my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have (tēreō) removed or taken away my Father's commandments, and abide in his love … Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have (tēreō) removed or taken away my saying, they will (tēreō) remove or take away yours also.”

Ephesians 4:3 reads: “Endeavouring to (tēreō) keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.”

Pretrib would have Ephesians 4:3 read: “Endeavouring (tēreō) to remove or take away the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.”

Philippians 4:7 reads: “And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall (tēreō) keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.”

Pretrib would have Philippians 4:7 read: “And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall (tēreō) remove or take away your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.”

2 Timothy 1:12 reads: “For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able (teros) to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.”

Pretrib would have 2 Timothy 1:12 read: “For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able (tēreō) to remove or take away that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Jude 1:24 reads: “Now unto him that is able (tēreō) to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.”

Pretrib would have Jude 1:24 read: “Now unto him that is able (tēreō) to remove or take away you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.”
 
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