"I never knew you'

redleghunter · Jan 3, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
God asked me a question a few years ago. He said, "What is your righteousness?" I thought for a moment. "The best I can do," I replied. Immediately I remembered the word that my righteousness is filthy rags in God's sight. So the best I can do is filthy rags as far as God is concerned. Works are the outworking of the Life of Christ within us, not an attempt to please God and get in His good books. Lord Jesus said that we would be known by our fruit. Fruit grows naturally from the tree. We are called to bear fruit, not to manufacture it.

So we become the Righteousness of God through Jesus Christ and this righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe?

HTacianas · Jan 3, 2020

redleghunter said:
Your position is we are justified by Grace but our works keep us justified?

Yes.

redleghunter · Jan 3, 2020

HTacianas said:
We *enter into* salvation by grace through faith. We *remain* in that salvation based on our conduct. Now, after we enter into salvation do we continue to sin, or are we obedient?

Rom 6:16 - Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

And even more direct:

Heb 10:26 - For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27 - but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

I’d like to see in context that we remain saved by our own works. The verses you quoted provided no such support for your position.

Now perhaps there is another way to approach this.

What does being a new creation in Christ mean to you?

HTacianas · Jan 3, 2020

redleghunter said:
I’d like to see in context that we remain saved by our own works. The verses you quoted provided no such support for your position.

Now perhaps there is another way to approach this.

What does being a new creation in Christ mean to you?

1Co 9:27 - But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

redleghunter · Jan 3, 2020

HTacianas said:
I understand your point but I think you are missing mine.

We are saved by faith soley through the grace of God. Ephesians 2 gives examples of all the things the Ephesians were wrapped up in previously before they were saved but God saved them anyway. All of those things were in the past. Regardless of what they had previously done, it was forgiven and they entered into the grace of God.

Afterwards they were required to behave themselves else they would be cut off from salvation just like us.

I was following until the “cut off from salvation” comment. Where is that verse or passage in Ephesians?

redleghunter · Jan 3, 2020

HTacianas said:
1Co 9:27 - But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Disqualified from what exactly? Preaching?

redleghunter · Jan 3, 2020

HTacianas said:
Yes.

I don’t see that taught in the NT. You yourself said your works are as filthy rags. Is that what you rely on to keep your salvation? Best effort?

HTacianas · Jan 3, 2020

redleghunter said:
I was following until the “cut off from salvation” comment. Where is that verse or passage in Ephesians?

It's found in Romans. The new testament is consistent throughout.

Rom 11:22 - Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

HTacianas · Jan 3, 2020

redleghunter said:
I don’t see that taught in the NT. You yourself said your works are as filthy rags. Is that what you rely on to keep your salvation? Best effort?

I never said that. But anyway, why would Paul want the Ephesians to wrap themselves in filthy rags?

Eph 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

The Righterzpen · Jan 3, 2020

Zachm531 said:
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

This is the scariest verse in the entire Bible!

These people clearly believe they are Christians and they are not. This is not about "works" / "grace" salvation. This is about people who are self deceived. And that is an individual thing; not specifically of groups who are doctrinally clearly outside of the gospel.

These people are defined as "workers of iniquity" in that they proclaim they are believers when they are really hard hearted and that hard heartedness shows up in their actions and attitudes toward other people. They carry an air of believing they are spiritually superior.

There are several examples of false brethren in the epistles. 2 Timothy 3 is one passage that gives a description of what these people are like. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10 is another passage. Also the admonition to the 7 churches in Revelation contains examples of false believers.

This also runs parallel to the wheat and tares parable. Most of the people can't tell the difference between the wheat and the tares and that's what makes this passage so scary. Tares are good at faking being wheat. Yes, there are clearly manifestations of belief systems that are outside of Scriptural truth; but having one's doctrines all correct does not save anyone either. Again, what makes this passage so scary!

timothyu · Jan 3, 2020

The Righterzpen said:
Tares are good at faking being wheat.

Hence Matthew 25:34-46

redleghunter · Jan 4, 2020

HTacianas said:
As I said before, we enter into salvation purely by faith and the grace of God. What is confusing you is that someone has told you that once you enter into salvation you can never forfeit it. They are leading you astray.

God does not lead us astray:

Philippians 1: NASB

6For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Romans 8: NASB

29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Ephesians 1: NASB

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us.

Ephesians 1: NASB

In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

1 Corinthians 1: NASB

4I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus, 5that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge— 6even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you— 7so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. (NASB)

These are promises.

Perhaps another way to understand the relation of saved by Grace through faith and faithful works is to not separate them?

Ephesians 2: NASB

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (NASB)

Notice this Grace through faith is related to verse 10 and cannot be separate as heat and light cannot be separated by fire.

Notice these good works are as a result of us being God’s workmanship created in Christ Jesus. And God prepared them beforehand so we would walk in them.

So we cannot even take credit for this as keeping our salvation as these good works are God’s workmanship.

These are fruits of righteousness through Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1: NASB

9And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, 10so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ;11having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

redleghunter · Jan 4, 2020

Kenny'sID said:
Are you saying we can get to heaven without doing good, in spite of what Christ says right there?

Are you saying the atonement of Christ Jesus is not required because of this verse?

redleghunter · Jan 4, 2020

HTacianas said:
Once you understand that you will fear.

The fear comes from knowing it is God who works in us. Not against us.

Philippians 1: NASB
3I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, 4always offering prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all, 5in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now. 6For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

HTacianas said:
See Philemon 2:12.

No chapter 2 in Philemon.

But I guess it is this:

Philippians 2: NASB

12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. (NASB)

Notice the fear is related to the work God is doing in us for His will and to work for His good pleasure. Seems many forget to finish the thought Paul had here.

redleghunter · Jan 4, 2020

HTacianas said:
It's found in Romans. The new testament is consistent throughout.

Rom 11:22 - Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Let’s provide some context. Paul is discussing how the Gentiles the wild olive was grafted in. That it would be easy to have a natural branch grafted back in meaning Israel. Paul is showing that as Israel was cut off so can the Gentiles. Then goes on to explain the mystery that a partial hardening of Israel has happened until the fullness of the Gentiles are complete.

Romans 11: NASB

17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

danielmears · Jan 4, 2020

Zachm531 said:
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

I believe that many people in the church today have a misunderstanding of what the Lord is saying. Before I delve into this I want to clarify in saying that I'm not sure if this view has been proposed before or not. Also, I could be wrong, I am not claiming certainty.

Many people understand this verse to be saying that you need faith AND WORKS to be saved because Jesus tells the sinners(workers of iniquity/lawlessness) to depart from him. If this is the case it seems to contradict all of the other claims of Jesus and the disciples that salvation comes by faith.

I believe that Jesus is referring to groups such as Jehovas Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims etc.. and let me explain why.

These groups all have obscure and incorrect versions of Jesus Christ. Jehovas Witnesses believe that Jesus was the first MADE creation, Micheal the Archangel and that he is the brother of Lucifer. This is false according to scripture- See Hebrews 1 . The Mormons believe that Jesus was a man who through his obedience to the Father's law, became a god. This is also false. See Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 44:6 . and Muslims say that Jesus was just a prophet. This is false. See Hebrews 1:8 , Revelation 22:13 , Matthew 12:8 . Obviously there are many more examples to disprove all of these, but, you get my point. This is a false Jesus and we know that God doesn't fellowship or hear the unbelievers John 9:31

The thing that all man made religions have in common is the need for good works and the belief that good deeds outweighs bad deeds, and if you have more good then bad then you get to Heaven. The three groups I mentioned all believe in works based salvation. They believe that if they are obedient enough then they will be able to make it to Heaven. Of course we understand that this is false: Galatians 5:3 and Galatians 2:16 . If a man is to be justified by works then we are required to keep EVERY LAW. We know this is not possible and the author of Galatians states it clearly here Galatians 2:21 . If we are required to keep the law, then Jesus came for no reason. Hence if these people are trying to obtain salvation by works, then they are required to keep the whole of the law, which we have seen is impossible. Hence they fail and are therefore workers of lawlessness.

So on the last day, when the people of these groups say to Jesus: " Lord, Lord have we not done many GREAT WORKS in your name?" He will say "I never knew you". These people WERE doing GREAT WORKS but they had a false Jesus who wasn't the One and only TURE GOD, a Jesus who couldn't save by his work alone but also need their good works.

And when he calls them workers of iniquity, its not because they did not obey Gods law BUT quite the opposite, these people tried to be saved by the law. They were severed from Christ and fallen from grace ( Galatians 5:4 ) so they were required to keep the entire law! ( Galatians 5:3 ). We are not able to keep the entire law its impossible ( Romans 3:23 ).

He goes on to tell you exactly what he meant in Matthew 7:24, Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock; And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon the house ; and it fell not; for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand; Matt. 7: 24-26. So, we are to DO His sayings, love God with all of our heart and mind, love one another, believe on Him, which is believing He is the resurrection and life, plus have faith in God as He says in Mark 11:22-24 Have faith in God, For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things so ever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. Jesus, wants us to learn and do what he says. This is the greatest worship! If we truly believe we shall act in accordance with the Word, do the Word, love and have the faith of God dwelling in us. Glory to God! We must grasp his teachings which are life!

timothyu · Jan 4, 2020

danielmears said:
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them,

Hear and do what? Matthew 25:34-46 As you say... have faith in God.. he tells us what to do for a reason.

Al Touthentop · Jan 4, 2020

Zachm531 said:
I don't see the words saved or salvation is James 2:24 , could you point that out to me? Also, show me how James 2:24 is to be reconciled with Galatians, Ephesians and Romans which all teach salvation by faith.

But if you pay attention to the context of Paul's writings you'll see he is not defining "works" universally.

That's why so many people are confused.

In Romans and Galatians, he's not saying that ANY work cannot save you. He's saying that works of a dead, obsolete law can't save you. Of course it can't because it's not the law Christians are under. There is a law, but it is the law of Christ or as James puts it, the perfect law of liberty.

In Ephesians, talking to Gentiles he's saying that their own works don't save them, (not of yourselves). And in fact in 2:1-6 he tells them straight up that their baptism saved them and that it was the grace of God. So he's obviously not excluding baptism as a work that saves us.

He goes on to say in verse 10, that is NEVER quoted together with 2:8,9 that it is GOD's works which save us. The works that God has commanded us to do and which are the current jurisdiction.

Commands from God are in and of themselves grace. Those commands, when obeyed, bring salvation. That is the epitome of grace, just as the Lt.'s life saving commands to his platoon are grace. Commands are GIVEN. They are gifts themselves. Whoever thinks that God's commands are the opposite of grace haven't read their bibles with any discernment.

Psalm 1
1 How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked,
Nor stand in the path of sinners,
Nor sit in the seat of scoffers!
2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord,
And in His law he meditates day and night.
3 He will be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water,
Which yields its fruit in its season
And its leaf does not wither;
And in whatever he does, he prospers.

Who on earth could read that Psalm and believe that David was telling us that those who merely sit around thinking about God's law rather than actually doing it would receive any of the benefits he's listed here?

Aussie Pete · Jan 4, 2020

redleghunter said:
So we become the Righteousness of God through Jesus Christ and this righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe?

Yes. Everything we have that pleases God is in Christ and in Christ we have everything that pleases God.

Kenny'sID · Jan 4, 2020

redleghunter said:
Are you saying the atonement of Christ Jesus is not required because of this verse?

You misread my post, or, once again, someone got their post and mine confused with each other.

I'm saying:

Kenny'sID said:
Are you saying we can get to heaven without doing good, in spite of what Christ says right there?

This is one high maintenance OSAS crew.

"I never knew you'

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