Guojing

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Jerry,

On the subject of whether Jesus came to offer the Jews a political kingdom with Himself as King, consider this. During the Temptation of Christ, the Devil offered "all kingdoms of the world" to Jesus and Jesus rejected the offer.

Repudiation of kingship

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”
Matthew 4:8-10 NIV

In the following passage, Jesus specifically says that God the Father reigns in Heaven, and the earth is only an extension of that Kingdom. He does not refer to Himself as King in the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Heaven, or on earth.

34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.
Matthew 5:34-35 NIV

Of all passages u used this, you forgot to add that Jesus had to bow down to Satan for that deal to work?
 
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Dale

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So you do believe that there will be a time in the future, where all those things, will happen right?

Back to my original question to you then, will those Christians who fell asleep before that time, be resurrected together with the rest of us living, in order to face those things?

Don't they have to go thru the same testing? Why are they "fortunate" enough not to have to face it?

You did not answer my question on why you believe a specific group of believers who already put their faith in Jesus's death and resurrection and are thus justified before God, have to go thru that period, while the rest who happen to have passed away before it happened are exempted.

Why do they have to go through that? They are not saved from the wrath to come? 1 Thessalonians 1:10

So those Christians who have already passed away, say in the last year or so, have it much easier than those who specifically have to go thru the events in Revelations?


Guojing,

I notice that you repeatedly accuse non-Dispensationalists are setting up a scheme where some Christians suffer more than others before getting to heaven. I'm not sure why this is a theological problem. There have always been martyrs but not everyone is called to be a martyr or lives in a time or place where this is happening.


It certainly looks like the main purpose of "Rapture" is to tell Christians that they won't have to face the coming Tribulation -- which sounds like a false claim, a false hope. Outside of that, the only purpose of "Rapture" is to set up a scheme where the "Raptured" are privileged and spared the suffering that Christians who miss the "Rapture" go through. Someone who becomes a Christian the day before the Rapture is taken to heaven, without the inconvenience of death, and spared the Tribulation. Someone who becomes a Christian the day after the Rapture goes through the pain of Tribulation and horrible testing of their soul. So "Rapture" sets up a privileged class of Christians who get the joy of heaven and get to look down on the suffering of those who didn't become Christians soon enough.


You seem to have it backwards. The "Rapture" does nothing but set up special privilege for some and extra suffering for others.
 
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Guojing

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Guojing,

I notice that you repeatedly accuse non-Dispensationalists are setting up a scheme where some Christians suffer more than others before getting to heaven. I'm not sure why this is a theological problem. There have always been martyrs but not everyone is called to be a martyr or lives in a time or place where this is happening.


It certainly looks like the main purpose of "Rapture" is to tell Christians that they won't have to face the coming Tribulation -- which sounds like a false claim, a false hope. Outside of that, the only purpose of "Rapture" is to set up a scheme where the "Raptured" are privileged and spared the suffering that Christians who miss the "Rapture" go through. Someone who becomes a Christian the day before the Rapture is taken to heaven, without the inconvenience of death, and spared the Tribulation. Someone who becomes a Christian the day after the Rapture goes through the pain of Tribulation and horrible testing of their soul. So "Rapture" sets up a privileged class of Christians who get the joy of heaven and get to look down on the suffering of those who didn't become Christians soon enough.


You seem to have it backwards. The "Rapture" does nothing but set up special privilege for some and extra suffering for others.

I don't know why you use the term "accused", when all I was doing is to seek clarifications on what other people are thinking.

As for your main point, well, there is a reason why this current dispensation is called the dispensation of grace. God is urging all of us to be reconciled with him thru his Son.
2 Corinthians 5:11-21

Anyone can get into this "privilege" because God is long suffering. We don't look down on anyone, they have the free choice to accept or reject the free gift.
 
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jerry kelso

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Jerry Kelso:

<< 1. Separation of the tares and wheat is not a coming.
2. The Jewish elect will be the wheat gathered Matthew 24:33 from the 4 winds of Heaven which is actually the earth the same as Revelation 7:1. >>

Jesus already explained the Parable of the Weeds to the Apostles and He did not say that it applies primarily or exclusively to the Jews. Jesus said, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man." Then the "good seed" must be the Christians, all followers of Jesus Christ.


The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.
Matthew 13:36-43 NIV

dale,

1. I believe in a pre trib rapture.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 shows a rapture and fits the pre-Trib position best.
Revelation 4-5 after the church age of chapters 2-3 John is taken to Heaven through the door to Heaven.
This is said to be an actual portal. You may not believe it, but Genesis 5:21-24 Enoch was translated to Heaven, as Elijah was. Enoch is the type of a the pre trib rapture.
It was before Noah’s flood in Genesis 7:6.
Matthew 24:37-39; The second coming will be as in the days of Noah.
This alone should end the argument of when the rapture of living believers will be.
Revelation 4:4;10; 5:4,8-10,14; 24 elders represent the old and New Testament saints.
They are redeemed for they have white raiment and crowns of gold. Elders are never used of angels.
It is not stated why of 24 elders, but in 1 Chronicles 24:1-9 the whole priesthood of old .
The names of the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles are written on the Holy City , New Jerusalem Revelation 21:10-14.
The church will reign on earth Revelation 5:9-10.
Revelation 11:18 the church will be rewarded for their works as well as the Old Testament saints and prophets.
Revelation 19:7-10; at the marriage of the Lamb are the old and new testament and tribulation saints in fine linen which is the righteousness of all saints.
The tribulation saints will be those in the last part of the 1st resurrection Revelation 20:4-6. All are dead martyrs who didn’t take the mark of the beast before the 7 vials Revelation 15:1-2; 16:1-2.
There are no living believers in Revelation 20:4-6.
That same company are Jews for they sing the song of Moses and the Lamb which was Jewish connected to Moses and New Covenant believers connected to the Lamb.
Since they are the last company and they are Jewish would make sense that the last day resurrection of John 11:24 which was an Old Testament resurrection of the dead that was not for the New Covenant believing Jews and gentiles since we are a part of the New Testament Church in Hebrews 6:1-2 and it occurs on the last day.

2. Mid trib rapture can’t be because the church is in Heaven given rewards Revelation 11:18.

3. No post rapture because the last company in the first resurrection of Revelation 20:4-6 are the martyrs before the 7 vials.
Armageddon is after this and shown in Revelation 19:11-20 coming out of Heaven to the earth to do battle on earth not to the clouds to receive dead and living saints.
Post trib has to force 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 into the first resurrection of 20:4-6.
Also, the pre-trib rapture is about the church and not tribulation saints in the time of Jacob’s trouble 1 Corinthians 15:51-52. This is why it is a mystery, not to mention that Old Testament knew nothing about it.
They didn’t really understand the New Testament church Paul revealed in Ephesians 2:14-15 that started with Peter in Acts 10:48.

4. The earmarks of the church are nowhere in Revelation 6:19 that covers the tribulation.
Israel is the focus Matthew 24:14-22 and tribulation saints not the church age saints who are raptured.
Matthew 13 was spoken to the disciples who were Jewish. The KoH and the KoG message was preached and offered to the Jewish nation and their were gentiles who believed in God outside and inside of Israel. History will repeat itself except the future will have the New Covenant to be saved by because of Calvary. In Jesus day was before the cross.

5. Therefore, Matthew 13:36-43; children of the kingdom are Jews and gentiles.
Those righteous shine forth are those in Revelation 25 at the judgement of the nations that divide the sheep’s from the goats who in verse 34 the king (Christ) says, Come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepares for you from the foundation of the world. These righteous inherited by their works towards Israel and those who do not treat Israel right not a judgement of wicked dead Revelation 20:12-14.
There will also be people on earth that will not know Christ has come Isaiah 2:2-24; 66:19-21; Zechariah 8:23.

6. The point is that their are tribulation saints Jews and Gentiles but there is no evidence of them being the church age saints.
Jerry Kelso
 
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jerry kelso

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Jerry,

On the subject of whether Jesus came to offer the Jews a political kingdom with Himself as King, consider this. During the Temptation of Christ, the Devil offered "all kingdoms of the world" to Jesus and Jesus rejected the offer.

Repudiation of kingship

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”
Matthew 4:8-10 NIV

In the following passage, Jesus specifically says that God the Father reigns in Heaven, and the earth is only an extension of that Kingdom. He does not refer to Himself as King in the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Heaven, or on earth.

34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.
Matthew 5:34-35 NIV

dale,

1. Satan is the God of this world because he controls the world system. God allows this though he has complete control overall.

2. Jesus offered the KoH reign to stay true to the covenants of Abraham and Davidic Covenants Genesis 12:1-3;12-15; 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-7; prophesied in Ezekiel 37:16-28; Zechariah 14:1-9.
Also, as the Messiah he came to seek and save that which was lost as Luke said.
It was a bonafide offer despite no scripture that stated they would accept them.
Spiritually the Messiah would be rejected and despised of men Isaiah 53 and not accepted by his own John 1:11. So will you say it wasn’t a bona fide offer because the Messiah could not win all of Israel to him?
So yes, the KoH physical and KoG spiritual offers were both bonefish offers.

2. The Father reigns from Heaven and that is true and is not in contention.
The KoH being an extension is not minor because the earth and humans was chosen by God to be his family of creation.
The son is not King of Kings and Lord of Lords now in Heaven as in Revelation 19:11-20 but more the mediator in his eternal priesthood as in in Hebrews 7 and in Hebrews 2 as intercessor.
The son will give the Kingdom to the Father so he will be God all in all 1 Corinthians 15:24-28. This is when the universal physical KoG will be in harmony again. Jerry Kelso
 
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Dale

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sovereigngrace,

1. The Greek word for basileia means a realm or a region governed by a king.
There can be no kingdom without a king.
It is mentioned 33 times only in Matthew because it is Jehovah’s King.
The word Heaven is plural in these passages.
The phrase KoH literally means the kingdom from the heavens. It’s a dispensation always term that refers to the Messiah’s kingdom on earth.
The sovereignty comes from Heaven because that is where the King is from.
John 18:36.
To this end he was born and this is the first subject of his ministry Matthew 3:2;4:17.

2. The proclamation of the kingdom has 306 verses.
The proclamation of the King has 964 verses.
The rejection of the King has 901 verses.
The rejection of the King has 782 verses.
You have no scriptural right to deny a physical kingdom on earth.

3. KoG physical is mentioned 72 times. It’s term means sovereignty of God over the whole universe.
It existed before the creation of earth.
It is moral and universal and will know no end.
The angels and and other spirit beings were in this kingdom before earth’s creation. Read Job 38:4-7.
The KoH could not have existed then, for there wasn’t no earth for the kingdom from the Heavens to rule.
To deny the KoG is just spiritual is to deny the scriptures.

4. The KoH reign is political in its sphere (Isaiah 9:7; Daniel 7:13-14,18).
John 18:36 Jesus spoke when he was fixing to go back to Heaven.
It wasn’t time for the KoH reign on earth that was promised to the Jews eternally and conditioned by obedience, because of Israel’s rejection.
Acts 1:6-7 shows that it wasn’t time after the cross or in the early church. It will happen in the future Isaiah 2:1-4; 9:7 ;66:7-10; Ezekiel 37:16-28; Zechariah 14; Romans 11:25-29.
Are you going to deny these truths in the scriptures?

5. Your assessment about premills doesn’t speak for all even though many have a defeated attitude because of a misunderstanding of the KoH and the KoG and Jesus message under the Mosaic law and end up bringing the spirit of the law upon them.

6. The Jews understood their covenants of the Kingdom on earth were real and eternal. 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-7.
This is why Jesus offered the physical KoH Matthew 4:17; Repent for the KoH is at hand.
Luke 1:33; And he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Verse 32 Christ is to be given the throne of David.
All these prophecies from the beginning were to be physical and spiritual for Israel, not the church.
Israel today is hated by many nations in the world.
Your group just like the Catholics spiritualized this verse and others and misapply it to the church and take it out of context.
There is a grace component in the Davidic covenant Romans 4:6.
Jesus said he was given all authority in Heaven and Earth Matthew 28:19.
Now I understand Acts 2:25-35 and the spiritual aspect of Christ sitting on the right hand etc.
However, you have to recognize there are scriptures of a literal kingdom as well, not just spiritual aspects. You want to make all of them spiritual. This is why I say you throw the baby out with the bath water.

7. Premills don’t undermine the omnipotence of God except in your false context of denying the literal Davidic KoH in the future.
We don’t deny Christ reigning as King of Kings and Lord of Lords of our hearts.
In Revelation 4-5 the Lamb is in Heaven, in Revelation 19 the saints are at the marriage of the Lamb.
When he goes to war in vs 11-16 where he is has on his venture and on his thigh a name written King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
We don’t deny Christ is reigning over creation. Christ has all authority and power in Heaven and Earth.
He is not reigning physically over the physical KoH right now.
We don’t deny Christ reigning over his enemies because he defeated Satan at Calvary and has the keys to hell and death Revelation 1:18. He uses spiritual warfare through the church to defeat the enemies onslaught Ephesians 6:10-17.
However, he still allows the enemies that make up the world system to rule and reign within that context.
It will be different in the millennial kingdom and the final perfect state 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.
We believe spiritually he reigns as the physical ruler from the right hand of God upon David’s throne Acts 2:25-35.
But he is not reigning on earth physically and spiritually in the KoH reign today.
Why? Because he hasn’t taken over the kingdoms of the world because they are not his. If this was just spiritual Revelation 11:15 wouldn’t state that The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ and he shall reign forever. This is all future from now and since Calvary.
I’m sure you’ll pass it off on the last perfect state because you don’t believe in the future millennial kingdom of 1000 years.

8. You like to give the scriptures for the spiritual KoG and ignore the scriptures about the physical KoH reign on earth called the millennium of a literal 1000 years Revelation 20.

9. I don’t really understand why you want to give one side of the issue and not the other. Do you realize how deceptive that is?
You make false claims about premills because you are trying to put our beliefs in your context and it doesn’t work.

10. The physical kingdom basiliea is a fact of scripture but you just want to deny it.
It is separate from the spiritual aspect of the KoG.

11. The KoH and KoG started in the Garden of Eden and when they sinned it needed restoration.
This was to happen in Jesus day but there was no prophecy that said Israel would accept Christ.
It was prophesied that the church was predestined Ephesians 1:3 and God would die for the whole world John 3:16
and that because of Israel’s stumbling and falling Salvation came to the gentiles Romans 11:11 and Matthew 21:43.
The KoH physical and the KoG spiritual is tied into Israel’s restoration and creation’s restoration and putting down all sin and rebellion and destroying all enemies of Christ and Satan thrown into the lake of fire Joel 2;Ezekiel 37:16-28; Isaiah 11:6-9; Romans 8:22; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Revelation 20:10.

12. The KoH is the son’s who will give it back to the Father so God can be all in all. This is when the KoG physical will be in complete harmony with this earthly sphere of the KoH.
So yes there is a distinction between the KoH physical and the KoG spiritual.
The spiritual kingdom has to received in order to inherit the physical KoH reign. Jerry Kelso


Jerry Kelso: <<
The rejection of the King has 901 verses.
The rejection of the King has 782 verses. >>

Which is it, 782 or 901 verses? This is completely confused.

Jerry Kelso: << 2. The proclamation of the kingdom has 306 verses.
The proclamation of the King has 964 verses.
>>

I don't see how the proclamation of the Kingdom is different from the proclamation of the King. So is it 306 verses or 964 verses?

I don't believe that the words "king" or "kingdom" occur that many times in the Gospels.
 
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sovereigngrace

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sovereigngrace,

1. Genesis 1:26-28; shows Adam and Eve have physical rule over all the physical earth including physical animals.
This would make sense to represent the physical KoH reign on earth that is a part of the physical universe known as the KoG.
This physical kingdom was lost because they had to be kicked out of the garden Genesis 22-24.
This brought a physical curse of creation.

Thanks for your post, and willingness to dig deep.

I have no difficulty with suggesting that Adam was given authority to rule the earth, but I do not accept your dividing up of the kingdom. There is only one kingdom. But to try to divide both in the Garden is unwise and unwarranted. In posts #711 and #812 I have proved, in a watertight manner, that the KOH and the KOG are synonymous. You or no Pretrib have or ever can refute that, because it is straight and plain Scripture speaking. Notwithstanding, the whole literal physical earthly progressive plan of God in the OT was all foreshadowing the coming spiritual kingdom (KOH/KOG). The divine revelation is given in the Old Testament by way of ceremonial types, religious symbols, sacrificial figures, actual events, old covenant offices and key spiritual characters.
  • The old covenant was the type and figure.
  • The new covenant was the fulfillment or realization.
Where Dispys miss it is that they are trying to take us back to that which is eternally abolished.

So, what is the difference between the Old Testament period and the New Testament period? Is the old covenant still alive and relevant or has it been superseded?

The main difference between the Old Testament period and the New Testament period is their perspective of Jesus Christ! The Old Testament was looking forward to the coming Messiah. The New Testament reveals His arrival and precious work on man’s behalf. As we dig deeper and compare both, we notice that there are notable differences between the two arrangements. We see a significant move:

· From the shadow and type to the substance and reality
· From the imperfect to the perfect
· From the inadequate to the all-sufficient.
· From the physical to the spiritual
· From the external to the internal
· From the natural to the supernatural
· From the temporary to the eternal
· From the earthly to the heavenly
· From the national to the international
· From the conditional to the unconditional

These two economies couldn’t be more diverse. The improvement is obvious, substantial and indisputable. The repercussions are even greater for mankind. What was long-anticipated by the old covenant prophets has now wonderfully arrived. The appearance of Israel’s Messiah was the pivotal moment in history and the catalyst for a colossal transformative change.

2. They had to be sinless because the only sin they could sin that was mentioned was to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil Genesis 2:17 or else they would die which was eternal death, because if they would have eaten of the tree of life and their immortality would live forever in sin and would have no way to be redeemed.

Totally agree!!!

This Kingdom was spiritual and was lost because they sinned.
For their spiritual sin they were given physical judgments Genesis 3:14-19.
This was the real beginning of the KoH physical and KoG spiritual. God will not rule with man without a holy heart Hebrews 12:14; Follow peace with all men, and men, without which no man shall see the Lord.
So do you agree with this assessment or not?

You are flogging a dead horse here! There is no mention of the kingdom here! This is classic eschatological eisegesis – reading into Scripture whatever you want. You are trying to impose a belief (that has thankfully been rejected by most modern Dispensationalists), on the sacred text. 2+2=4, not 22.

So, I totally reject your reasoning.

This is what I see in the Garden

When Adam fell his desires automatically changed from being God-ward to being self-ward. Natural man with Adam’s blood is born with that same corrupt aspiration. He is a rebel. In this, he will always go the way of sin. That is his natural inclination. This had to be corrected. That is why Christ (the last Adam) came. In salvation, Christ restores that desire for God and the things of God.

Basically:
  • Man had a problem, Christ was the answer.
The Scriptures are essentially God revealing Himself to mankind through the communication of knowledge. As we analyze the ancient Hebrew text we see a notable and central theme mounting: that of the arrival of a Redeemer Messiah to rescue man from his sinful condition. This came in the form of direct prophecies, old covenant offices, ceremonial typology and a tapestry of unfolding preparation. In fact, Jesus Christ is the key to understanding the biblical covenants. Even though they did not have a full revelation of Him, the old covenant prophets were preoccupied with Christ’s person, His appearance and His ministry. The Old Testament text gradually and assuredly steered history onward to the fulfillment of every ancient promise. There is a steady unfolding continuity of plan and purpose from the Old to the New Testament, concentrated on the promised Messiah. Christ is indeed God’s final and fullest revelation.

Man badly needed redemption. God foretold the coming redeemer and Christ’s atoning sacrifice for sin at Calvary from the beginning in Genesis 3: “I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel” (Genesis 3:15). This prophecy in the Garden pointed straight to Calvary. It described the enormity of the cross-work. It came as a result of the fall of Adam and Eve, which opened their eyes, revealing their awful sinful state.

Even through the tragedy of the fall, God had an immediate and acceptable antidote. By shedding the blood of innocent animals and provided a covering for sin and shame, God afforded man a way of escape. The Lord removed their man-made garments and gave them a divine covering. Here is the first blood sacrifice. Significantly it was made by Almighty God. This Divine transaction revealed an eternal truth to sinful man, that “without shedding of blood is no remission” for sin (Hebrews 9:22). This blood sacrifice in the Garden was God’s preview of Calvary. Through this blood atonement He established a covenant with sinful man. Through it he revealed the only means of sacrifice acceptable unto God.

This system of blood sacrifice was passed down from Adam and Eve to Cain and Abel. However, Cain though he could circumvent this requirement, and bring an offering of fruit instead of a blood sacrifice (Genesis 4:5). He was consequently rejected by God for that. Abel's offering was acceptable to God because it was the “firstlings of his flock” (Genesis 4:4). After the flood receded, Noah made animal sacrifices to God for sin (Genesis 8:20-21).

A complex plan of blood atonement was officially set in place in the book of Leviticus as a temporary covering for Israel's sin. God accepted the substitutionary sacrifice of innocent animals as an appeasement for sin. He held back His wrath many times because of this scheme. It allowed sinful man to come into His presence and not be destroyed. Notwithstanding, the temple ordinances, the priestly ministry, the blood sacrifices, the annual feasts were all pointing to the coming Messiah and His one final sacrifice for sin.

But Christ would not just make this final sacrifice for sin, He was that sacrifice. Repeated Scripture depicts Him as man’s actual redeemer. Psalm 22:12-18: “For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.”

Here the cross is predicted and prefigured. It shows how Christ was condemned on our behalf in order that we could be free.
 
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sovereigngrace

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2. Jesus offered the KoH reign to stay true to the covenants of Abraham and Davidic Covenants Genesis 12:1-3;12-15; 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-7; prophesied in Ezekiel 37:16-28; Zechariah 14:1-9.

Where and when did He do this? Please give NT Scripture.

So yes, the KoH physical and KoG spiritual offers were both bonefish offers.

That is both contradictory and insane. You are making Christ confused and bipolar. I can assure you He was/is neither.

Physical or spiritual kingdom expected?

Dispensationalists teach that Christ’s real purpose for coming to this earth was to establish an earthly Jewish kingdom. They say that this was to be a political kingdom centered in Jerusalem where Christ would rule over a dominant Israel and exercise complete control over the nations of the earth. Unfortunately, they make the exact same mistake that the Pharisees did 2000 years ago with their misguided obsession with (1) racial favoritism, (2) earthly real estate and (3) the idea of a dictatorial Messiah reigning over the Gentile nations with a rod of iron. Because of their flawed perception of the kingdom, the Pharisees ended up rejecting Christ.

When Christ appeared at His first advent, many religious Jews imagined the Messiah would introduce an authoritarian Zionistic kingdom, restore Israel’s ancient borders, reinstate the then defunct earthly throne of Israel and reign victorious over the house of Israel. They thought the anointed One would be a great military leader that would confront Israel’s enemies, and overcome them, freeing them from foreign domination, starting with the Romans.

The Jewish expectation was a literal visible territorial political kingdom of which the warrior-like liberator would triumphantly rule. These religious apostates believed in ethnic division and racial dominance. They believed that the appearance of Messiah would usher in a period of natural and spiritual bliss for Israel, a time where the nations would be brought into wholesale subjugation. This would be a time of historic and unprecedented justice and peace. Their obsession with the natural, earthly and provisional instead of the spiritual, heavenly and eternal caused them to reject Christ and nail Him to a tree as an impostor.

Dispies speak much about a future Davidic kingdom and argue for its return in a future millennium after the second coming. But they fail to see that the old covenant earthly kings of Israel were not God’s plan but a rebellious invention of man designed to mimic the heathen nations around them. While God permitted them, they only serve as an imperfect distorted type of the perfect heavenly King who reigns today in heavenly Jerusalem

The reality is: Christ never made any attempt to set up a carnal Zionist territorial political kingdom. He didn’t make the slightest attempt to overthrow the Roman rulers. He wasn’t even an earthly king. Nowhere did He try to raise up an earthly army to instigate an nationalist political kingdom. He rather came to reveal a heavenly kingdom which was entered by faith.

The reason why the Jewish Scribes and Pharisees rejected Him was that He didn’t meet their hyper-literalist expectation of an earthly ethnic territorial political system. The kingdom He spoke of was spiritual and heavenly. This did not fit in with their carnal expectation. Sadly, Premils still seek after such a faulty expectation in order to justify their flawed future hope. What is more, the natural, physical, earthly ceremonial aspects of the old covenant are obliterated in the New Testament by the new covenant reality. This was presented by the legalistic religious Jewish leaders as evidence of Christ phony credentials.

Their misguided thinking was governed by a faulty hyper-literalist interpretation of Old Testament messianic prophecies. Christ repeatedly confronted and exposed these religious Pharisees and their defective expectancy in His teaching. The reality is, they were more concerned with being free from Roman rule than being free from their sin.

Instead of letting the New Testament pages interpret the Old Testament predictions, many Premillennialists actually explain away the fuller revelation with their hyper-literal opinion of Old Testament prophecy. This is a defective mode of biblical interpretation. What results from it is Dispensational theology. While it is important to consider a text in its normal, grammatical, historical, contextual and cultural setting, we must ultimately establish what and when it is referring to. We primarily need to discern the actual meaning the Holy Spirit intended rather than what man would assign to it through his bias theological approach. If the Bible student fails to recognize the era and fulfilment in view, and what the New Testament writers say about the same, then they will be all over the place in their understanding.

Their bias toward literalism prevents them from objectively analyzing the inspired pages. It stops them acknowledging the diminished vision most Old Testament prophets had. It also prevents them from seeing how the New Testament fuller revelation interpreted these. Of course, it is difficult to definitively outline the degree of revelation the various generations of Old Testament saints enjoyed before the incarnation; but, what we do know is that the fullness of that progressive illumination reached unfathomable heights with the arrival and teaching of Christ.
 
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jerry kelso

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Jerry Kelso: <<
The rejection of the King has 901 verses.
The rejection of the King has 782 verses.
>>

Which is it, 782 or 901 verses? This is completely confused.

Jerry Kelso: << 2. The proclamation of the kingdom has 306 verses.
The proclamation of the King has 964 verses.
>>

I don't see how the proclamation of the Kingdom is different from the proclamation of the King. So is it 306 verses or 964 verses?

I don't believe that the words "king" or "kingdom" occur that many times in the Gospels.

dale,
1. Rejection of the Kingdom. Sorry, must have been in a hurry.

2. You don’t the difference between a kingdom and a king?

3. Matthew 4:17 was the actual start of the KoH message to the Jews and their nation.

4. It is not about the words being mentioned but the subject of the Kingdom.
Jerry Kelso
 
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jerry kelso

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Thanks for your post, and willingness to dig deep.

I have no difficulty with suggesting that Adam was given authority to rule the earth, but I do not accept your dividing up of the kingdom. There is only one kingdom. But to try to divide both in the Garden is unwise and unwarranted. In posts #711 and #812 I have proved, in a watertight manner, that the KOH and the KOG are synonymous. You or no Pretrib have or ever can refute that, because it is straight and plain Scripture speaking. Notwithstanding, the whole literal physical earthly progressive plan of God in the OT was all foreshadowing the coming spiritual kingdom (KOH/KOG). The divine revelation is given in the Old Testament by way of ceremonial types, religious symbols, sacrificial figures, actual events, old covenant offices and key spiritual characters.
  • The old covenant was the type and figure.
  • The new covenant was the fulfillment or realization.
Where Dispys miss it is that they are trying to take us back to that which is eternally abolished.

So, what is the difference between the Old Testament period and the New Testament period? Is the old covenant still alive and relevant or has it been superseded?

The main difference between the Old Testament period and the New Testament period is their perspective of Jesus Christ! The Old Testament was looking forward to the coming Messiah. The New Testament reveals His arrival and precious work on man’s behalf. As we dig deeper and compare both, we notice that there are notable differences between the two arrangements. We see a significant move:

· From the shadow and type to the substance and reality
· From the imperfect to the perfect
· From the inadequate to the all-sufficient.
· From the physical to the spiritual
· From the external to the internal
· From the natural to the supernatural
· From the temporary to the eternal
· From the earthly to the heavenly
· From the national to the international
· From the conditional to the unconditional

These two economies couldn’t be more diverse. The improvement is obvious, substantial and indisputable. The repercussions are even greater for mankind. What was long-anticipated by the old covenant prophets has now wonderfully arrived. The appearance of Israel’s Messiah was the pivotal moment in history and the catalyst for a colossal transformative change.



Totally agree!!!



You are flogging a dead horse here! There is no mention of the kingdom here! This is classic eschatological eisegesis – reading into Scripture whatever you want. You are trying to impose a belief (that has thankfully been rejected by most modern Dispensationalists), on the sacred text. 2+2=4, not 22.

So, I totally reject your reasoning.

This is what I see in the Garden

When Adam fell his desires automatically changed from being God-ward to being self-ward. Natural man with Adam’s blood is born with that same corrupt aspiration. He is a rebel. In this, he will always go the way of sin. That is his natural inclination. This had to be corrected. That is why Christ (the last Adam) came. In salvation, Christ restores that desire for God and the things of God.

Basically:
  • Man had a problem, Christ was the answer.
The Scriptures are essentially God revealing Himself to mankind through the communication of knowledge. As we analyze the ancient Hebrew text we see a notable and central theme mounting: that of the arrival of a Redeemer Messiah to rescue man from his sinful condition. This came in the form of direct prophecies, old covenant offices, ceremonial typology and a tapestry of unfolding preparation. In fact, Jesus Christ is the key to understanding the biblical covenants. Even though they did not have a full revelation of Him, the old covenant prophets were preoccupied with Christ’s person, His appearance and His ministry. The Old Testament text gradually and assuredly steered history onward to the fulfillment of every ancient promise. There is a steady unfolding continuity of plan and purpose from the Old to the New Testament, concentrated on the promised Messiah. Christ is indeed God’s final and fullest revelation.

Man badly needed redemption. God foretold the coming redeemer and Christ’s atoning sacrifice for sin at Calvary from the beginning in Genesis 3: “I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel” (Genesis 3:15). This prophecy in the Garden pointed straight to Calvary. It described the enormity of the cross-work. It came as a result of the fall of Adam and Eve, which opened their eyes, revealing their awful sinful state.

Even through the tragedy of the fall, God had an immediate and acceptable antidote. By shedding the blood of innocent animals and provided a covering for sin and shame, God afforded man a way of escape. The Lord removed their man-made garments and gave them a divine covering. Here is the first blood sacrifice. Significantly it was made by Almighty God. This Divine transaction revealed an eternal truth to sinful man, that “without shedding of blood is no remission” for sin (Hebrews 9:22). This blood sacrifice in the Garden was God’s preview of Calvary. Through this blood atonement He established a covenant with sinful man. Through it he revealed the only means of sacrifice acceptable unto God.

This system of blood sacrifice was passed down from Adam and Eve to Cain and Abel. However, Cain though he could circumvent this requirement, and bring an offering of fruit instead of a blood sacrifice (Genesis 4:5). He was consequently rejected by God for that. Abel's offering was acceptable to God because it was the “firstlings of his flock” (Genesis 4:4). After the flood receded, Noah made animal sacrifices to God for sin (Genesis 8:20-21).

A complex plan of blood atonement was officially set in place in the book of Leviticus as a temporary covering for Israel's sin. God accepted the substitutionary sacrifice of innocent animals as an appeasement for sin. He held back His wrath many times because of this scheme. It allowed sinful man to come into His presence and not be destroyed. Notwithstanding, the temple ordinances, the priestly ministry, the blood sacrifices, the annual feasts were all pointing to the coming Messiah and His one final sacrifice for sin.

But Christ would not just make this final sacrifice for sin, He was that sacrifice. Repeated Scripture depicts Him as man’s actual redeemer. Psalm 22:12-18: “For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.”

Here the cross is predicted and prefigured. It shows how Christ was condemned on our behalf in order that we could be free.

sovereign grace,

1. What is the one kingdom physical or spiritual?

2. #711 and #812 are irrelevant because we were going to start new.

3. No pre-trib can or ever has refuting it etc., is your opinion not scripture. At least I don’t see scripture.

4. I see no scripture for your physical foreshadowing turning to nothing but spiritual fulfillment.
Genesis 3:15 was both physically and spiritually fulfilled in the gospels.
Jesus was prophesied to be born as the MESSIAH and that was fulfilled literally.
Yes, there was shadows and types but they were not just spiritual in every cases. Your generalizations are your opinion and not scripture.

5. The restoration of the kingdom has not happened and has never been eternally abolished and you have no scripture for it.
Because of man’s sin is why there has to be a restoration of both physical rule in a complete theocracy with God and the spiritual rule in man and all rebels removed.

6. I understand the difference between types and shadows and the old being concealed and the new being revealed but all in their proper context. Some prophecies have not been fulfilled but they will be in the future, literally. If you don’t believe that then you don’t believe in the perfect theocracy of God in Revelation 21.
Also, there are real things in the Old Testament that still stand literal so your perception is to make everything spiritual. Try Noah’s promise of a rainbow when it rains and it still rains.

7. Why a dissertation on the spiritual redemption of man? I already mentioned that and that is not the argument.
Yes, Calvary took care of the spiritual condition as fas as salvation of man’s heart.
But that doesn’t answer to creation needing to be restored or the physical land restored to Israel for the time of the KoH reign and their spiritual restoration Genesis 12-15; Matthew 5:5; 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-7; Ezekiel 37:16-28, Romans 11:25-29; Revelation 11:15.
If you are so sure that Calvary made everything manifest and made it into a spiritual kingdom then why would Revelation 11:15, does the kingdoms of this world have to be come Christ again if he already has them and why if these are spiritual kingdoms alone would Christ have to die again? That is the perception and implication. Jerry Kelso
 
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sovereigngrace

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sovereign grace,

1. What is the one kingdom physical or spiritual?

2. #711 and #812 are irrelevant because we were going to start new.

3. No pre-trib can or ever has refuting it etc., is your opinion not scripture. At least I don’t see scripture.

4. I see no scripture for your physical foreshadowing turning to nothing but spiritual fulfillment.
Genesis 3:15 was both physically and spiritually fulfilled in the gospels.
Jesus was prophesied to be born as the MESSIAH and that was fulfilled literally.
Yes, there was shadows and types but they were not just spiritual in every cases. Your generalizations are your opinion and not scripture.

5. The restoration of the kingdom has not happened and has never been eternally abolished and you have no scripture for it.
Because of man’s sin is why there has to be a restoration of both physical rule in a complete theocracy with God and the spiritual rule in man and all rebels removed.

6. I understand the difference between types and shadows and the old being concealed and the new being revealed but all in their proper context. Some prophecies have not been fulfilled but they will be in the future, literally. If you don’t believe that then you don’t believe in the perfect theocracy of God in Revelation 21.
Also, there are real things in the Old Testament that still stand literal so your perception is to make everything spiritual. Try Noah’s promise of a rainbow when it rains and it still rains.

The problem is your desire to see a restoration of an old-covenant-style theocracy. The old covenant kings of Israel were a rebellious fleshly idea. However, God used them as a shadow of His heavenly kingship. Christ is not going to yield to the permissive idea of man and reign in physical Jerusalem, He is reigning now on David's throne (since the resurrection) in heaven. This was God’s provision for Israel all along. The same occurred with the priesthood. Christ was predicted to be Israel's high priest. However, that didn't mean that He was going to make animal sacrifices in a physical temple in Jerusalem. No, we all know that this was a figure of things to come in heaven's true eternal high priest. This Israeli priesthood was a shadow of Christ perfect mediatory priestly work in heaven.

There is no need, or biblical requirement, for God to raise up a geopolitical racist old-covenant kingdom. You have yet to show me any New Testament Scripture that would confirm that. I have shown you multiple scriptures that prove that God's kingdom today is spiritual.

Scripture clearly teaches us that the introduction of an earthly throne to Israel was against the perfect divine plan for the nation. Notwithstanding, God permitted it as sop to, and a sign of, their disobedience, and allowed it, as an imperfect type of Israel’s only true heavenly King – the Lord Jesus Christ. The inception and continuance of the kings was a flawed invention of man and a rebellious innovation in this favoured nation. Nonetheless it was used by God as an imperfect foreshadowing of Christ’s victorious heavenly reign from the throne of God after His glorious ascent.

In Gideon’s day the children of Israel craved for an earthly king and attempted to bestow such an office upon Gideon. However, Gideon in his wisdom refused to bow down to their sinful desires. Judges 8:22-23 records, “Then the men of Israel said unto Gideon, Rule thou over us, both thou, and thy son, and thy son's son also: for thou hast delivered us from the hand of Midian. And Gideon said unto them, I will not rule over you, neither shall my son rule over you: the LORD shall rule over you.”

It was an affront to righteous Gideon to even consider such a role. He knew that, that role belonged solely to a heavenly King.

1 Samuel 8:4-7 records the beginning of Israel’s earthly royal rule and outlines the rebellious nature of that request. It shows the leaders of the house of Israel (who represented the people) petitioning the man of God – Samuel – for the introduction of an earthly king. It says, “all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.”

Israel’s desire for and the constituting of an earthly throne was a flagrant fleshly revolt against the perfect will of God. The throne itself was a profound symbol of the disobedience of Israel and its acceptance of the permissive will of God. God’s way was not suffice, Israel needed a substitute. Whilst God permitted the people in their endeavour and ultimately blessed the rule of the righteous kings, as He does to all just rulers, it was still the permissive will of God.

The Lord then instructed, in 1 Samuel 8:8-9, “According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee. Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.”

The Lord Jesus Christ was Israel’s real King, but in their disobedience God gave them the desire of their heart. However, God’s prophet Samuel prophetically declared, “Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I brought up Israel out of Egypt, and delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of all kingdoms, and of them that oppressed you: And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us” (1 Samuel 10:18-19).

Of course, this was an exact fulfilment of Moses’ prophecy in Deuteronomy 17:14, which said, “When thou art come unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me.”

Israel’s desire for an earthly king upon an earthly throne was a rebellious act against God’s sufficient kingly provision. God had already provided, in His eternal plan, a satisfactory heavenly King, in the form of the Lord Jesus Christ, to rule from His heavenly throne.

1 Samuel 12:12 records the admonishing of God’s servant Samuel, when speaking to the people on the matter, saying, “And when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said unto me, Nay; but a king shall reign over us: when the LORD your God was your king.”

The desire for an imperfect earthly king was a significant disobedient step for the nation of Israel and a barefaced rejection of God’s perfect heavenly reality.

Samuel continued, in verse 13, Now therefore Behold the king whom ye have chosen, and whom ye have desired! and, behold, the LORD hath set a king over you.” Therefore, God permitted them their desire, but it was clearly the permissive will of God and therefore carried a consequence.

Verse 17 continues, “Is it not wheat harvest to day? I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and rain; that ye may perceive and see that your wickedness is great, which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.”

God viewed the request and imposition of a king to Israel as a gross form of disobedience and sin. That request highlighted the backslidden state of the nation and their misguided desire to trust in the arm of flesh.

The next verse tells us that “the LORD sent thunder and rain that day: and all the people greatly feared the LORD and Samuel” (v18).

The peoples own reaction to this sign of God’s expressed displeasure is testimony to the permissive nature of the earthly Israeli throne. The people petitioned God’s servant, “Pray for thy servants unto the LORD thy God, that we die not: for we have added unto all our sins this evil, to ask us a king.” Here, the children of Israel confessed with their lips what God had spoke through His prophet.

The Prophet Hosea declared, in chapter 13 verses 9-11, “O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help. I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes? I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took him away in my wrath.”

Why would Christ assume a sinful earthly permissive throne when the Bible makes it clear that His divine Davidic throne is in heaven and that He presently reigns upon it? Premils want to foist this carnal innovation upon Christ when He appears. They want to take us back to this rebellious imperfect old covenant type. Whilst God allowed this, it was not His perfect plan. His design was that Christ would be a heavenly King reigning in heavenly glory upon a heavenly throne.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Yes, Calvary took care of the spiritual condition as fas as salvation of man’s heart.
But that doesn’t answer to creation needing to be restored or the physical land restored to Israel for the time of the KoH reign and their spiritual restoration Genesis 12-15; Matthew 5:5; 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-7; Ezekiel 37:16-28, Romans 11:25-29; Revelation 11:15.

There is absolutely nothing in Genesis 12-15 speaking about two future kingdoms.

2 Samuel 7:13-16, 1 Chronicles 28:1-7 and Ezekiel 37:16-28 is talking about Christ's current reign in heaven For his messianic spiritual kingdom. Peter specifically addresses this when speaking about David and his throne on the day of Pentecost, saying, “therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, the Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand, until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:29-36).

Peter here describes in unmistakable terms the start, and ongoing fulfilment, of Christ’s glorious heavenly reign over His enemies. Peter explains that the possession of David’s throne and the rule that accompanied it was fulfilled in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ and commenced at His “resurrection.” Peter’s teaching also shows that Christ currently sits majestic upon David’s throne whilst He makes His foes His footstool. He confirms that this throne is situated within the heavenly Jerusalem where Christ sits “by the right hand of God exalted.” Thus, He now exercises supreme authority over His enemies as “both Lord and Christ.” Such therefore began after He victoriously ascended up into heaven at the end of His earthly ministry. Peter’s use of Psalm 110:1 to support that teaching is therefore absolutely significant.

Where in the NT does it promise a great future regathering for the Jewish people? Nowhere! As for Romans 11 there is no teaching about the land. There is just a statement that God is able to bring salvation to Israel again. It doesn’t say “they will be grafted back into their own olive tree” it actually says: “God is able to graff them in again” – big difference.

Matthew 5:5 and Revelation 11:1 is speaking about the perfection and glorified state that arrives at the one and only future second coming.

Hebrews 4:8-11 says, “if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his [Christ’s] rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.”

Christ is the only resting place in this messed up world. There is no rest in living in Palestine, with the continual threat of Arab attack. Millions of Arab's surround natural Israel with a mind to destroy her. There can be no true rest in that environment. Christ provides the real rest that all Jews need and desire. They can enter into the Promised Land today by faith - if they wish. Graciously, that land is possessed by countless Gentiles and many Jews today. We can all share this land peacefully. It is here the nations don't war. The weapons of war – the swords and spears – are converted into the tools of peacetime – the plowshares and pruninghooks – (Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:3).

Hebrews 3:18: “enter into his rest.”

Hebrews 4:1: entering into his rest.”

Hebrews 4:10: “he that is entered into his rest.”

Hebrews 4:11 again warns us: Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.”

If you are so sure that Calvary made everything manifest and made it into a spiritual kingdom then why would Revelation 11:15, does the kingdoms of this world have to be come Christ again if he already has them and why if these are spiritual kingdoms alone would Christ have to die again? That is the perception and implication. Jerry Kelso

Revelation 11:15 is speaking of the last trump. This agrees with various other Scripture that prove that this is the one and only future coming of Christ which ushers in the end of the age/world.

Revelation 11:15: “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Pretribulationist doctrine.

At the last trumpet, Christ will “reward” the saints and “destroy” the wicked. It is “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” One wonders how anyone could not see a general resurrection of the dead here in order to enable a general judgment.

Scripture carefully knits together to show a climactic Coming of Christ at the end. Interesting all these references show us that His return is ushered in by the sound of the trumpet.

Christ said Himself, in Matthew 24:29-31, Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is the end! Jesus clearly comes “after the tribulation.”

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” His appearing sees “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

1 Corinthians 15:22-24, 51-53 describes a ‘last trump’ saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

There is only one last trumpet, it means final trumpet - it sounds at Christ's climactic return. The word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final.

The Coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” It is this all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.
 
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jerry kelso

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The problem is your desire to see a restoration of an old-covenant-style theocracy. The old covenant kings of Israel were a rebellious fleshly idea. However, God used them as a shadow of His heavenly kingship. Christ is not going to yield to the permissive idea of man and reign in physical Jerusalem, He is reigning now on David's throne (since the resurrection) in heaven. This was God’s provision for Israel all along. The same occurred with the priesthood. Christ was predicted to be Israel's high priest. However, that didn't mean that He was going to make animal sacrifices in a physical temple in Jerusalem. No, we all know that this was a figure of things to come in heaven's true eternal high priest. This Israeli priesthood was a shadow of Christ perfect mediatory priestly work in heaven.

There is no need, or biblical requirement for there God to raise up a geopolitical racist old-covenant kingdom. You have yet to show me any NT Scripture that would confirm that. I have shown you multiple scriptures that prove that God's kingdom today is spiritual.

Scripture clearly teaches us that the introduction of an earthly throne to Israel was against the perfect divine plan for the nation. Notwithstanding, God permitted it as sop to, and a sign of, their disobedience, and allowed it, as an imperfect type of Israel’s only true heavenly King – the Lord Jesus Christ. The inception and continuance of the kings was a flawed invention of man and a rebellious innovation in this favoured nation. Nonetheless it was used by God as an imperfect foreshadowing of Christ’s victorious heavenly reign from the throne of God after His glorious ascent.

In Gideon’s day the children of Israel craved for an earthly king and attempted to bestow such an office upon Gideon. However, Gideon in his wisdom refused to bow down to their sinful desires. Judges 8:22-23 records, “Then the men of Israel said unto Gideon, Rule thou over us, both thou, and thy son, and thy son's son also: for thou hast delivered us from the hand of Midian. And Gideon said unto them, I will not rule over you, neither shall my son rule over you: the LORD shall rule over you.”

It was an affront to righteous Gideon to even consider such a role. He knew that, that role belonged solely to a heavenly King.

1 Samuel 8:4-7 records the beginning of Israel’s earthly royal rule and outlines the rebellious nature of that request. It shows the leaders of the house of Israel (who represented the people) petitioning the man of God – Samuel – for the introduction of an earthly king. It says, “all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.”

Israel’s desire for and the constituting of an earthly throne was a flagrant fleshly revolt against the perfect will of God. The throne itself was a profound symbol of the disobedience of Israel and its acceptance of the permissive will of God. God’s way was not suffice, Israel needed a substitute. Whilst God permitted the people in their endeavour and ultimately blessed the rule of the righteous kings, as He does to all just rulers, it was still the permissive will of God.

The Lord then instructed, in 1 Samuel 8:8-9, “According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee. Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.”

The Lord Jesus Christ was Israel’s real King, but in their disobedience God gave them the desire of their heart. However, God’s prophet Samuel prophetically declared, “Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I brought up Israel out of Egypt, and delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of all kingdoms, and of them that oppressed you: And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us” (1 Samuel 10:18-19).

Of course, this was an exact fulfilment of Moses’ prophecy in Deuteronomy 17:14, which said, “When thou art come unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me.”

Israel’s desire for an earthly king upon an earthly throne was a rebellious act against God’s sufficient kingly provision. God had already provided, in His eternal plan, a satisfactory heavenly King, in the form of the Lord Jesus Christ, to rule from His heavenly throne.

1 Samuel 12:12 records the admonishing of God’s servant Samuel, when speaking to the people on the matter, saying, “And when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said unto me, Nay; but a king shall reign over us: when the LORD your God was your king.”

The desire for an imperfect earthly king was a significant disobedient step for the nation of Israel and a barefaced rejection of God’s perfect heavenly reality.

Samuel continued, in verse 13, Now therefore Behold the king whom ye have chosen, and whom ye have desired! and, behold, the LORD hath set a king over you.” Therefore, God permitted them their desire, but it was clearly the permissive will of God and therefore carried a consequence.

Verse 17 continues, “Is it not wheat harvest to day? I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and rain; that ye may perceive and see that your wickedness is great, which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.”

God viewed the request and imposition of a king to Israel as a gross form of disobedience and sin. That request highlighted the backslidden state of the nation and their misguided desire to trust in the arm of flesh.

The next verse tells us that “the LORD sent thunder and rain that day: and all the people greatly feared the LORD and Samuel” (v18).

The peoples own reaction to this sign of God’s expressed displeasure is testimony to the permissive nature of the earthly Israeli throne. The people petitioned God’s servant, “Pray for thy servants unto the LORD thy God, that we die not: for we have added unto all our sins this evil, to ask us a king.” Here, the children of Israel confessed with their lips what God had spoke through His prophet.

The Prophet Hosea declared, in chapter 13 verses 9-11, “O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help. I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes? I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took him away in my wrath.”

Why would Christ assume a sinful earthly permissive throne when the Bible makes it clear that His divine Davidic throne is in heaven and that He presently reigns upon it? Premils want to foist this carnal innovation upon Christ when He appears. They want to take us back to this rebellious imperfect old covenant type. Whilst God allowed this, it was not His perfect plan. His design was that Christ would be a heavenly King reigning in heavenly glory upon a heavenly throne.

Sovereigngrace,

1. So much for pithy!
The problem is not my desire but God’s eternal promises Genesis 17:7; And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an Everlasting Covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
2 Samuel 7:13-16; the house of David and the throne of David will be established forever.
If they sin God will chasten them but his mercy would not depart from him as God took it from Saul.
This kingdom is physical but is conditioned by the spiritual status of the Jewish nation not the church of today.
You can’t prove this is just spiritual which is exactly what you have been doing.

2. Old Covenant style of theocracy?
Calvary was in the past so it only stands to reason that when Christ saves the nation and forgive their sins it will be under the New Covenant Matthew 26:28.

3. You have no scripture to prove that Israel was a shadow of the Heavenly kingship.

4. Christ has all authority in Heaven and Earth Matthew 28:19.
We can do nothing without Christ John 15:5.
Whether spiritual warfare or being Kings, Priests and Rulers in the coming physical kingdom we can do nothing without Christ.

5. There’s no argument about the Levitical priesthood being a type and shadow of the Melchizedek priesthood Hebrews 7.

6. A geo-political racist old covenant kingdom are your false accusations and opinions.
It will be political for a government has laws that one has the enforce and subjects have to abide by laws.
There is nothing racist about God’s theocracy and the old covenant has already been abolished at Calvary 2 Corinthians 3:13.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28 shows the millennial kingdom is about putting down all sin and rebellion.
But those who abide by the civil law will be allowed to live and they will be the one to rebel at the end of the 1000 years Revelation 20:7-9.

7. Israel did want a king and God gave them a king.
There were good kings and more bad ones it’s true.
The millennial kingdom will not be one of fleshly people and fleshly desires etc.
1 Corinthians 6:2 saints will judge the world and Revelation 2:26-27 saints will be given power over the nations; Revelation 5:9-10 saints will be Kings, Priests and Rulers in the Kingdom to come and Israel will be at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4.
Your only spiritual kingdom is not scriptural and you’re wasting your time and being deceptive in your posts giving just one side of the issue.
You misunderstand what the kingdom is all about.
You don’t understand paradoxes or how to harmonize them and that is why you falsely accuse and trash the scriptures we give and their true context that we believe.
Jerry Kelso
 
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jerry kelso

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There is absolutely nothing in Genesis 12-15 speaking about two future kingdoms.

2 Samuel 7:13-16, 1 Chronicles 28:1-7 and Ezekiel 37:16-28 is talking about Christ's current reign in heaven For his messianic spiritual kingdom. Peter specifically addresses this when speaking about David and his throne on the day of Pentecost, saying, “therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, the Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand, until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:29-36).

Peter here describes in unmistakable terms the start, and ongoing fulfilment, of Christ’s glorious heavenly reign over His enemies. Peter explains that the possession of David’s throne and the rule that accompanied it was fulfilled in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ and commenced at His “resurrection.” Peter’s teaching also shows that Christ currently sits majestic upon David’s throne whilst He makes His foes His footstool. He confirms that this throne is situated within the heavenly Jerusalem where Christ sits “by the right hand of God exalted.” Thus, He now exercises supreme authority over His enemies as “both Lord and Christ.” Such therefore began after He victoriously ascended up into heaven at the end of His earthly ministry. Peter’s use of Psalm 110:1 to support that teaching is therefore absolutely significant.

Where in the NT does it promise a great future regathering for the Jewish people? Nowhere! As for Romans 11 there is no teaching about the land. There is just a statement that God is able to bring salvation to Israel again. It doesn’t say “they will be grafted back into their own olive tree” it actually says: “God is able to graff them in again” – big difference.

Matthew 5:5 and Revelation 11:1 is speaking about the perfection and glorified state that arrives at the one and only future second coming.

Hebrews 4:8-11 says, “if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his [Christ’s] rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.”

Christ is the only resting place in this messed up world. There is no rest in living in Palestine, with the continual threat of Arab attack. Millions of Arab's surround natural Israel with a mind to destroy her. There can be no true rest in that environment. Christ provides the real rest that all Jews need and desire. They can enter into the Promised Land today by faith - if they wish. Graciously, that land is possessed by countless Gentiles and many Jews today. We can all share this land peacefully. It is here the nations don't war. The weapons of war – the swords and spears – are converted into the tools of peacetime – the plowshares and pruninghooks – (Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:3).

Hebrews 3:18: “enter into his rest.”

Hebrews 4:1: entering into his rest.”

Hebrews 4:10: “he that is entered into his rest.”

Hebrews 4:11 again warns us: Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.”



Revelation 11:15 is speaking of the last trump. This agrees with various other Scripture that prove that this is the one and only future coming of Christ which ushers in the end of the age/world.

Revelation 11:15: “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Pretribulationist doctrine.

At the last trumpet, Christ will “reward” the saints and “destroy” the wicked. It is “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” One wonders how anyone could not see a general resurrection of the dead here in order to enable a general judgment.

Scripture carefully knits together to show a climactic Coming of Christ at the end. Interesting all these references show us that His return is ushered in by the sound of the trumpet.

Christ said Himself, in Matthew 24:29-31, Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is the end! Jesus clearly comes “after the tribulation.”

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” His appearing sees “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

1 Corinthians 15:22-24, 51-53 describes a ‘last trump’ saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

There is only one last trumpet, it means final trumpet - it sounds at Christ's climactic return. The word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final.

The Coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” It is this all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

sovereigngrace,

1. What is your reasoning for not being pithy?

2. I never said there was 2 Kingdoms in Genesis 12-15. The Abrahamic Covenant about the Land promised to Israel in the physical KoH.

3. Acts 2:29-36 shows David died but his body was not resurrected in his day and Christ body was. And it was true that David had not ascended to Heaven but Christ had.
To be honest David wasn’t really proclaiming his throne was only spiritual.
Verse 30 was really proclaiming the physical throne.
Therefore being a prophet is the first thought which goes with the death and resurrection of Christ.
The word “and” is a conjunction that makes the 2nd thought “and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne separate from the first.
The reason for this is that David knew the Davidic throne was physical not just spiritual.
The Davidic Covenant was conditioned by the obedience of Israel and not the church and God has not made his foes his footstool physically.
Spiritually he has in the sense of Matthew 28:19. Satan still rules this world system of evil men. God has to come back and physically take back all the kingdoms of this world Revelation 11:15.
So you throw the baby out with the bath water again to suit your fancy.

4. The future regathering of Israel Ezekiel 37:1-14 the valley of dry bones 16-28 the two sticks have to become one for a kingdom eternal and eternal posterity. It’s clear as day.

5. Matthew 5:5 is about the millennial kingdom for the son has to give the kingdom to the father so he can be God all in all 1 Corinthians 15:28.
You are saying that the son is on David’s throne now and so does he give the kingdom back to the father spiritually?
And the final kingdom does the Holy City really come down from Heaven and does God just spiritually tabernacle with us?
It’s late so I have to go for now. Jerry Kelso
 
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sovereigngrace

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Sovereigngrace,

1. So much for pithy!
The problem is not my desire but God’s eternal promises Genesis 17:7; And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an Everlasting Covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
2 Samuel 7:13-16; the house of David and the throne of David will be established forever.
If they sin God will chasten them but his mercy would not depart from him as God took it from Saul.
This kingdom is physical but is conditioned by the spiritual status of the Jewish nation not the church of today.
You can’t prove this is just spiritual which is exactly what you have been doing.

The All covenant profits anticipated the Messiah coming to introduce his spiritual kingdom. The NT writers applied the fulfilment of the kingdom prophecies to Christ's first advent, and His rule to His resurrection.

Also, Amos 9:8-15 declares, “Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD. For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us. In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this. Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.”

The reference to “the tabernacle of David” is shown in the New Testament to be a spiritual reference which relates to salvation going out to the Gentiles. It is nothing to do with a material tent or Solomon’s brick temple that was destroyed in AD 70.

Acts 15:1-19 relates specifically to the controversy among the early Church about the conversion of the Gentiles and particularly the erroneous thought, “Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved” (v 1). The matter was brought to the Church in Jerusalem for them to make a ruling. Peter speaks on behalf of the brethren, saying, “Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they” (Acts 15:7-11).

Paul and Barnabas then stood in support of the position assumed by Peter and corroborated his counsel, personally testifying about the miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them (v 12). We can therefore clearly determine that (1) the people under discussion are the Gentiles, (2) the subject matter under discussion is the requirement or not of these non-Jews to be circumcised in order to be in obedience to God, (3) the time-period in view was the actual day that these Apostles lived (the early church age).

James, in complete agreement with the other disciples, and in total accord with their line of argument, then speaks: “Men and brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up. That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God (vv 12-19).

Here, James is preaching from the Old Testament book of Amos – chapter 9 verses 11-12. He expounds this passage in detail in order to refute this Judaic bondage that some were trying to place on the Gentile believers. In doing so, he explains its context fully and confirms the figurative nature of the Temple predicted in this reading including the Sovereign purpose for its re-building. In doing so, James applies this prophecy to the present and more particularly to the Lord Jesus Christ. The re-building that James spoke of was the Lord’s physical resurrection. The purpose of this resurrection being, “That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called.”

In keeping with the teaching of Christ reference the temple, the apostles spiritualised the prediction of the tabernacle of David to refer to the spiritual house of God. In fact, the New Testament constantly refers to the temple of God as being a spiritual edifice.

In the Old Testament passage of Isaiah 22:21-25 we see a typical reference to the authority and governance of Christ with the key of David over the house of David. It reads: “And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father's house. And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house, the offspring and the issue, all vessels of small quantity, from the vessels of cups, even to all the vessels of flagons. In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall the nail that is fastened in the sure place be removed, and be cut down, and fall; and the burden that was upon it shall be cut off: for the LORD hath spoken it.”

The seizing of the key of David is closely connected with the governance of the house of Israel. The New Testament makes it clear that Christ now holds that key/authority. He now is Israel’s king. He glorious holds his earthly fore-father David’s throne. What country to the mindset of many literalists today, it is a spiritual row over a spiritual house. It also embraces Gentiles!

Christ is shown in the New Testament to be the fulfilment to all these Messianic prophecies. What is more, He is shown to be currently exercising Davidic key/authority upon high over David’s house. John says in Revelation 3:7, “These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath (present active particle) the key (or authority) of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.

This passage reinforces the fact that Christ is exercising His Davidic kingship over mankind now. The Old Testament kings were mere types of the one true King. He didn’t come to replicate the imperfect shadow and type, He came to introduce the true and eternal kingship of Israel.

Key in Scripture symbolically represents authority. Here it specifically relates to the position of Christ after He rose from the dead and notably linked to His Davidic (Messianic) power. Adam Clark confirms “the key of David is the regal right or authority of David.” Revelation 3:7 describes how Christ now exercises His Davidic kingship. The phrase “that hath” is translated from the Greek word echo is a primary verb meaning “to hold.” It is used in the present active particle, proving that this is an ongoing present authority. Christ is shown here to be ruling now in Davidic power on David’s throne.

The powerful language that accompanies the mention of Christ holding the key of David proves that this is referring to His majestic power and might. It says, “he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.” This speaks of spiritual power. The key allows Christ to sovereignly open and shut in a way that no man can thwart or override.

We can see from the grammatical tense that this is written in the present active particle tense, which proves this is happening now.
 
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sovereigngrace

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3. Acts 2:29-36 shows David died but his body was not resurrected in his day and Christ body was. And it was true that David had not ascended to Heaven but Christ had.
To be honest David wasn’t really proclaiming his throne was only spiritual.
Verse 30 was really proclaiming the physical throne.
Therefore being a prophet is the first thought which goes with the death and resurrection of Christ.
The word “and” is a conjunction that makes the 2nd thought “and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne separate from the first.
The reason for this is that David knew the Davidic throne was physical not just spiritual.
The Davidic Covenant was conditioned by the obedience of Israel and not the church and God has not made his foes his footstool physically.
Spiritually he has in the sense of Matthew 28:19. Satan still rules this world system of evil men. God has to come back and physically take back all the kingdoms of this world Revelation 11:15.
So you throw the baby out with the bath water again to suit your fancy.

You are clearly not getting it! You are trying to explain away clear explicit Scripture. Faithful Israel accepted Christ. We were grafted into them. We are now part of true Israel. What we see in the Middle East is apostate Judaism, which is under the wrath of God.

Peter describes in unmistakable terms the start, and ongoing fulfilment, of Christ’s glorious heavenly reign over His enemies. Peter explains that the possession of David’s throne and the rule that accompanied it was fulfilled in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ and commenced at His ascension. Peter’s teaching also shows that Christ currently sits majestic upon David’s throne whilst He makes His foes His footstool. He confirms that this throne is situated within the heavenly Jerusalem where Christ sits “by the right hand of God exalted.” Thus, He now exercises supreme authority over His enemies as “both Lord and Christ.” Such, therefore, began after He victoriously ascended up into heaven at the end of His earthly ministry. Peter’s use of Psalm 110:1 to support that teaching is therefore absolutely significant. We must always remember, all the Old Testament kings (including David) were only imperfect types of Israel’s true king who was to come, who now sits enthroned as king over the kingdom of God.

Jesus testifies in Revelation 3:21: To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down (aorist active indicative) with my Father in his throne.”

Here you have it! This is a current ongoing reality. There is no getting away from this. From this passage we explicitly see:

(1) The battle was Calvary
(2) The outcome was victory,
(3) His reign is current,
(4) The location is heaven.

Christ’s current heavenly reign over His enemies is inextricably linked to the decisive victory He secured through His life, death and glorious resurrection. Our Saviour had to overcome. He had to defeat every enemy of righteousness. He had to overcome that which had overcome man -namely sin, Satan, hell and the grave. Christ’s present reign is therefore (1) to perfectly fulfil Scripture, and (2) to enforce the complete victory that was wrought.

We find this truth repeated in Revelation 5:1-6, where we learn, “And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain.”

The word “prevailed” here is nikao meaning to conquer, overcome, prevail, or to get the victory. This is exactly what “the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David” did. This is an existing reality. We are not waiting for some future age for the son of David to prevail; He already victoriously secured a victory over every enemy by His resurrection and has now assumed the throne of David reigning over the Israel of God.

The priest has already experienced His coronation after the ascension. He now sits “on the throne” as the Messianic priest/kingship.

It was through the tribe of Judah that the Israelite royal linage functioned. It was here that the kingship or leadership was given (Genesis 49:9-10). Judah went by the standard of a lion. Jesus Christ was born through the linage of Judah (Matthew 1:1-2, Hebrews 7:14) and it is He that has the strength/power to deal with the enemies of His people. The connotation involved in the wording and symbolism contained in Revelation 5:5 in regard to “the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David” confirms Christ’s present Davidic kingship or rulership.
 
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sovereigngrace

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The Davidic Covenant was conditioned by the obedience of Israel and not the church and God has not made his foes his footstool physically.

Yes He has! Premillers are always dethroning Christ and elevating the power of Satan. The NT teaches the opposite.

Christ rules today!

Christ is no mere impotent King-in-waiting. He is not a want-to-be king. He is no ordinary powerless Prince. We see this in Matthew 28:18, where, after His resurrection, He victoriously declared, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”

This is Sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father's throne. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority. All heaven’s authority was deposited upon Christ through the triumph of Calvary where He triumphantly procured absolute victory over death, hell, sin, Satan and every enemy. Christ thus assumed the heavenly throne in perfect fulfilment of Old Testament prophecy and therefore reigns as Sovereign king until His last enemy is made His footstool.

Peter recognizes this in Acts 2:33, saying, “Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”

Again, in Acts 5:30-31, he teaches: “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.”

He has been “exalted” to the highest place and enjoys unchallenged authority now and for all eternity. Christ exercises divine kingship at the place of ultimate omnipotence as God and as Messiah. As God, Christ holds all power and authority in heaven and on earth, reigning over all creation. But as man He reigns over all His new creation (true spiritual Israel). His deity was simply veiled in a human body during His earthly ministry.

Hebrews 8:1 also says: "We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty (megalosune) in the heavens."

This phrase is synonymous with sitting at "the right hand of the power of God" (Matthew 26:64, Mark 14:62 and Luke 22:69). The “right hand” is therefore the special place of honour and power. Christ now enjoys full participation in God's glory in His lofty seat. Of course, repeated Scripture shows us that this means He carries all power. In fact, there is nothing that is not under His authority. The majesty that He possesses is real and ongoing. In a biblical sense, being at “the right hand of the Majesty” or “the right hand of the power of God” means to be the one upon whom majesty, power and authority rests and through whom it operates.

2 Peter 1:16 testifies: "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty (megaleiotes – meaning magnificence, mighty power). For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.”

He carried this Majesty and glory on earth as heaven’s King, albeit in a veiled sense, hidden behind human flesh. That veil was briefly lifted on the Mount of transfiguration but is now manifest in all its eternal unparalleled glory in heaven. It will be seen when He appears in power and glory at the second coming to destroy all sin, rebellion and the wicked.

Jude 25 tells us: "To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty (megaleiotes – meaning magnificence, mighty power), dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."

The Davidic Covenant was conditioned by the obedience of Israel and not the church and God has not made his foes his footstool physically.
Spiritually he has in the sense of Matthew 28:19. Satan still rules this world system of evil men. God has to come back and physically take back all the kingdoms of this world Revelation 11:15.
So you throw the baby out with the bath water again to suit your fancy.

4. The future regathering of Israel Ezekiel 37:1-14 the valley of dry bones 16-28 the two sticks have to become one for a kingdom eternal and eternal posterity. It’s clear as day.

5. Matthew 5:5 is about the millennial kingdom for the son has to give the kingdom to the father so he can be God all in all 1 Corinthians 15:28.
You are saying that the son is on David’s throne now and so does he give the kingdom back to the father spiritually?
And the final kingdom does the Holy City really come down from Heaven and does God just spiritually tabernacle with us?
It’s late so I have to go for now.
o

Ruling over His enemies now

You need to stop ignoring repeated NT Scripture. You are so besotted by the old covenant you cannot seem to divorce yourself from it.

Ephesians 1:19-23 declares, And what is the exceeding greatness of his (God’s) power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: and hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.”

Here is a very important passage that again confirms the absolute authority that Christ now enjoys and reveals the unlimited scope of His current rule. It explicitly illustrates the current sovereign reign of Christ over all His enemies from the “right hand” of majesty on high, until the occasion when He finally makes them His footstool – namely His one final future all-consummating Coming. God hath now “put all things (not some) under his feet.” And so as to leave no ambiguity to the reader, we find Paul explaining the fact that Christ’s rule includes both the whole natural and spiritual realm: “all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.”

The phrase “set (kathizō) him at his own right hand” literally reads in the original “seated him at his own right hand.” Many miss the enormity of this language. In ancient times, when a monarch was seated upon their throne it confirmed their formal investiture with regal power. It also often meant that their enemies had been conquered and they were now ruling.

Whilst Christ is currently reigning over His enemies since the resurrection He has still to see their final put down. 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 explains, For he (Christ) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted (present tense), which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him (at the Second Coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”

This Sovereign rule is not only a future hope but it is a current reality. Colossians 2:9-10 says, “For in him (Christ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power.”

This affirms the supremacy of Christ’s nature, As the second person of the Trinity, the Lord Jesus Christ has always shared dominion over all creation. This authority, which relates to the whole sphere of God’s Sovereign rule, covers the complete extent of all creation. He is now King of kings and Lord of lords.

Christ’s universal rule, which is found in His Divine character, exercises supreme authority over everything and everyone that exists. This dominion is seen in His sovereign dealing with mankind, whether it is with an individual person or with accumulation of nations – all are subject to his controlling power and ultimate influence. Such authority could be justly described as Christ’s providential kingship.

The great Puritan writer John Flavel states on the subject in his book ‘The Fountain of Life’, “He [Christ] rules and orders the kingdom of Providence by supporting, permitting, restraining, limiting, protecting, punishing and rewarding those over whom He reigns providentially.”

The writer of the Hebrews describes the current kingly rule of Christ from the heavenly abode in Hebrews 1:2-13. He introduces this thought in Hebrews 1:1-3, saying, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins (speaking of the victory of Calvary), sat down on the right hand of the majesty on high.”

At the time of this instruction, the promised Messiah had already come and taken the throne of David, although, evidently, not in the person or in the manner that the religious Jews envisioned.
 
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jerry kelso

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Yes He has! Premillers are always dethroning Christ and elevating the power of Satan. The NT teaches the opposite.

Christ rules today!

Christ is no mere impotent King-in-waiting. He is not a want-to-be king. He is no ordinary powerless Prince. We see this in Matthew 28:18, where, after His resurrection, He victoriously declared, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”

This is Sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father's throne. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority. All heaven’s authority was deposited upon Christ through the triumph of Calvary where He triumphantly procured absolute victory over death, hell, sin, Satan and every enemy. Christ thus assumed the heavenly throne in perfect fulfilment of Old Testament prophecy and therefore reigns as Sovereign king until His last enemy is made His footstool.

Peter recognizes this in Acts 2:33, saying, “Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”

Again, in Acts 5:30-31, he teaches: “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.”

He has been “exalted” to the highest place and enjoys unchallenged authority now and for all eternity. Christ exercises divine kingship at the place of ultimate omnipotence as God and as Messiah. As God, Christ holds all power and authority in heaven and on earth, reigning over all creation. But as man He reigns over all His new creation (true spiritual Israel). His deity was simply veiled in a human body during His earthly ministry.

Hebrews 8:1 also says: "We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty (megalosune) in the heavens."

This phrase is synonymous with sitting at "the right hand of the power of God" (Matthew 26:64, Mark 14:62 and Luke 22:69). The “right hand” is therefore the special place of honour and power. Christ now enjoys full participation in God's glory in His lofty seat. Of course, repeated Scripture shows us that this means He carries all power. In fact, there is nothing that is not under His authority. The majesty that He possesses is real and ongoing. In a biblical sense, being at “the right hand of the Majesty” or “the right hand of the power of God” means to be the one upon whom majesty, power and authority rests and through whom it operates.

2 Peter 1:16 testifies: "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty (megaleiotes – meaning magnificence, mighty power). For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.”

He carried this Majesty and glory on earth as heaven’s King, albeit in a veiled sense, hidden behind human flesh. That veil was briefly lifted on the Mount of transfiguration but is now manifest in all its eternal unparalleled glory in heaven. It will be seen when He appears in power and glory at the second coming to destroy all sin, rebellion and the wicked.

Jude 25 tells us: "To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty (megaleiotes – meaning magnificence, mighty power), dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."



Ruling over His enemies now

Ephesians 1:19-23 declares, And what is the exceeding greatness of his (God’s) power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: and hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.”

Here is a very important passage that again confirms the absolute authority that Christ now enjoys and reveals the unlimited scope of His current rule. It explicitly illustrates the current sovereign reign of Christ over all His enemies from the “right hand” of majesty on high, until the occasion when He finally makes them His footstool – namely His one final future all-consummating Coming. God hath now “put all things (not some) under his feet.” And so as to leave no ambiguity to the reader, we find Paul explaining the fact that Christ’s rule includes both the whole natural and spiritual realm: “all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.”

The phrase “set (kathizō) him at his own right hand” literally reads in the original “seated him at his own right hand.” Many miss the enormity of this language. In ancient times, when a monarch was seated upon their throne it confirmed their formal investiture with regal power. It also often meant that their enemies had been conquered and they were now ruling.

Whilst Christ is currently reigning over His enemies since the resurrection He has still to see their final put down. 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 explains, For he (Christ) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted (present tense), which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him (at the Second Coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”

This Sovereign rule is not only a future hope but it is a current reality. Colossians 2:9-10 says, “For in him (Christ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power.”

This affirms the supremacy of Christ’s nature, As the second person of the Trinity, the Lord Jesus Christ has always shared dominion over all creation. This authority, which relates to the whole sphere of God’s Sovereign rule, covers the complete extent of all creation. He is now King of kings and Lord of lords.

Christ’s universal rule, which is found in His Divine character, exercises supreme authority over everything and everyone that exists. This dominion is seen in His sovereign dealing with mankind, whether it is with an individual person or with accumulation of nations – all are subject to his controlling power and ultimate influence. Such authority could be justly described as Christ’s providential kingship.

The great Puritan writer John Flavel states on the subject in his book ‘The Fountain of Life’, “He [Christ] rules and orders the kingdom of Providence by supporting, permitting, restraining, limiting, protecting, punishing and rewarding those over whom He reigns providentially.”

The writer of the Hebrews describes the current kingly rule of Christ from the heavenly abode in Hebrews 1:2-13. He introduces this thought in Hebrews 1:1-3, saying, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins (speaking of the victory of Calvary), sat down on the right hand of the majesty on high.”

At the time of this instruction, the promised Messiah had already come and taken the throne of David, although, evidently, not in the person or in the manner that the religious Jews envisioned.

sovereigngrace;

Answer these two questions.
Is the son giving the kingdom back to the father spiritual or physical?
When the Holy City comes down from Heaven and God tabernacles with men spiritual or physical? Jerry Kelso
 
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sovereigngrace

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sovereigngrace,

1. What is your reasoning for not being pithy?

2. I never said there was 2 Kingdoms in Genesis 12-15. The Abrahamic Covenant about the Land promised to Israel in the physical KoH.

3. Acts 2:29-36 shows David died but his body was not resurrected in his day and Christ body was. And it was true that David had not ascended to Heaven but Christ had.
To be honest David wasn’t really proclaiming his throne was only spiritual.
Verse 30 was really proclaiming the physical throne.
Therefore being a prophet is the first thought which goes with the death and resurrection of Christ.
The word “and” is a conjunction that makes the 2nd thought “and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne separate from the first.
The reason for this is that David knew the Davidic throne was physical not just spiritual.
The Davidic Covenant was conditioned by the obedience of Israel and not the church and God has not made his foes his footstool physically.
Spiritually he has in the sense of Matthew 28:19. Satan still rules this world system of evil men. God has to come back and physically take back all the kingdoms of this world Revelation 11:15.
So you throw the baby out with the bath water again to suit your fancy.

4. The future regathering of Israel Ezekiel 37:1-14 the valley of dry bones 16-28 the two sticks have to become one for a kingdom eternal and eternal posterity. It’s clear as day.

5. Matthew 5:5 is about the millennial kingdom for the son has to give the kingdom to the father so he can be God all in all 1 Corinthians 15:28.
You are saying that the son is on David’s throne now and so does he give the kingdom back to the father spiritually?
And the final kingdom does the Holy City really come down from Heaven and does God just spiritually tabernacle with us?
It’s late so I have to go for now. Jerry Kelso
Sovereigngrace,

1. So much for pithy!
The problem is not my desire but God’s eternal promises Genesis 17:7; And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an Everlasting Covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
2 Samuel 7:13-16; the house of David and the throne of David will be established forever.
If they sin God will chasten them but his mercy would not depart from him as God took it from Saul.
This kingdom is physical but is conditioned by the spiritual status of the Jewish nation not the church of today.
You can’t prove this is just spiritual which is exactly what you have been doing.

2. Old Covenant style of theocracy?
Calvary was in the past so it only stands to reason that when Christ saves the nation and forgive their sins it will be under the New Covenant Matthew 26:28.

3. You have no scripture to prove that Israel was a shadow of the Heavenly kingship.

4. Christ has all authority in Heaven and Earth Matthew 28:19.
We can do nothing without Christ John 15:5.
Whether spiritual warfare or being Kings, Priests and Rulers in the coming physical kingdom we can do nothing without Christ.

5. There’s no argument about the Levitical priesthood being a type and shadow of the Melchizedek priesthood Hebrews 7.

6. A geo-political racist old covenant kingdom are your false accusations and opinions.
It will be political for a government has laws that one has the enforce and subjects have to abide by laws.
There is nothing racist about God’s theocracy and the old covenant has already been abolished at Calvary 2 Corinthians 3:13.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28 shows the millennial kingdom is about putting down all sin and rebellion.
But those who abide by the civil law will be allowed to live and they will be the one to rebel at the end of the 1000 years Revelation 20:7-9.

7. Israel did want a king and God gave them a king.
There were good kings and more bad ones it’s true.
The millennial kingdom will not be one of fleshly people and fleshly desires etc.
1 Corinthians 6:2 saints will judge the world and Revelation 2:26-27 saints will be given power over the nations; Revelation 5:9-10 saints will be Kings, Priests and Rulers in the Kingdom to come and Israel will be at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4.
Your only spiritual kingdom is not scriptural and you’re wasting your time and being deceptive in your posts giving just one side of the issue.
You misunderstand what the kingdom is all about.
You don’t understand paradoxes or how to harmonize them and that is why you falsely accuse and trash the scriptures we give and their true context that we believe.
Jerry Kelso

The Lord frequently called out the spiritual impotence of national Israel by way of symbol and by way of a parable. In Luke 13:6-9 He used the fig tree to symbolize natural Israel’s demise. He taught: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.”

Contained within these comments was proof that major change was coming. Here Christ is speaking of Israel’s lack of fruitlessness as a fig tree. He presents this as the reason why the fig tree must be cut down. Here, He is referring to how the nation generally rebelled against His message of salvation and hence brought forth no fruit acceptable unto God. That ministry lasted 3 ½ years on this earth and culminated in the Jews crucifying the Messiah. In the parable Christ refers to the length of His ministry.

On the day after His triumphant entry into Jerusalem, many of the citizens of Jerusalem heralded Him, saying, “Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord: Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest” (Mark 11:9-11).

But the text continues in Mark 11:13-14, “seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever.”

Did Christ curse this fig tree simply to prove His deity? Did He do it for no obvious reason? Or was He impressing some great spiritual truth upon His disciples in regard to natural Israel?

This was not some pointless irrelevant act to prove Christ’s deity or omnipotence; it was an object lesson in regard to Israel. The fig tree symbolically represents the physical nation of Israel whereas the olive tree represents the spiritual people of Israel. When Christ cursed the fig tree He was demonstrating the removing of the exclusive theocratic favor of God from the physical nation of Israel, whereas, the olive tree will exist forever. Years of abusing God’s favor, years of successive misrule among the national judges and kings, and the spiritual leaders, especially among the priests, and ongoing idolatry and stubborn rebellion among the people, finally brought the theocratic reign to an end. Never again will God’s favor be restricted to a genetic temporal earthly nation, but rather to a spiritual eternal heavenly nation.

Verse 12-14 records, in the NKJV: “Now the next day, when they had come out from Bethany, He was hungry. And seeing from afar a fig tree having leaves, He went to see if perhaps He would find something on it. When He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. In response Jesus said to it, ‘Let no one eat fruit from you ever again’.”

After this the Lord significantly headed straight for the very epicenter of the Jewish religion – the temple – and overturned the tables, demonstrating that He had had enough with their religious hypocrisy and stubborn rebellion.

Verse 15-17 in the KJV says, “they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple. And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.”

The favor of God was never intended to be limited to one nation. It was always God’s plan to reach the nations. This was the great turning point in history where kingdom blessing was transferred from the physical entity of natural Israel to the spiritual entity of the New Testament Church. With the introduction of the new covenant arrangement that move occurred. His house would no longer be considered a physical house in Jerusalem, but rather a spiritual house that would be a home throughout “all nations.”

Jesus reinforced that throughout His teaching. We that in Matthew 21:42-46: Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.”

The phrase “taken from you” literally reads:

airo meaning to lift up
apo meaning away
humon meaning you

But who would receive “the stone which the builders rejected”? A broad international New Testament Church who would bring “forth the fruits thereof.”

The kingdom would be “given” to them!

The phrase “given to” literally reads:

didomi meaning to give.

A careful analysis of this passage undoubtedly reveals the person and power of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is here described as “this Stone.” The reading succinctly outlines the contrast between God’s dealings with His elect and that of the wicked. It is Him alone who breaks the stubborn will of man in salvation and brings him into perfect union with an offended God. For those who reject God’s only provision for sin, they meet Him as judge and are crushed.

Jesus said in John 1:10-13: “He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

Who was His own?

It was Israel – the husbandmen in the vineyard - God's only vineyard then. This is corroborated by many other similar passages. Jesus encountered the hostility of the religious Jews many times during His earthly ministry. They were, by and large, a people that had “a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof” (2 Timothy 3:5). Many times, He presented them with the simple Gospel, and many times they rejected it. They were a people that had turned their back on the living God.

Christ outlines an important truth, that is repeated elsewhere in the New Testament, that salvation is not secured by one’s racial makeup, or one’s biological makeup, or one’s DNA, it is also not secured by human striving, or by religious efforts, but, rather, by the sovereign workings of Almighty God in the heart of an individual, according to His sovereign grace.

The Messiah that came was to be received as heaven's final sacrifice for sin. He was to be loved and trusted. The Jews would not have Him. not only did they reject Him. In fact, they cruelly nailed Him to a tree. Since the cross the natural Jew has largely rebelled against God’s gracious provision for sin, Jesus Christ.

Jesus declared to “the Jews” in John 10:27, after they questioned His deity, ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”

These religious zealots did not belong to the Israel of God – true Israel, they belonged to the natural seed of Abraham, not the spiritual seed. The belief that God has one plan of salvation for the ethnic relatives of Abraham and another for the Gentile people of the world is both mistaken and in conflict with clear and repeated Scripture. There is only one life-changing Gospel, containing one set of standards and requirements – it is open equally to both Jew and Gentile.

National Israel has lost its favored status among the nations as God’s chosen people. She is no longer God’s ambassador in a heathen world. She is no longer God’s voice of righteousness to mankind. She is no longer the instrument that God uses to manifest His glory on planet earth. Through rejecting God’s Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, she moved from the blessing of God to the wrath of God. But out of natural Israel God brought a spiritual remnant who knew Him and had real intimacy with Him. He sent them out with a spiritual message of hope to the Gentile nations. These He considered as true Israel. They became His representatives and His mouthpiece to a fallen world. That favored position belongs exclusively to those within Judaism and the Gentile nations who embrace the Messiah Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
 
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sovereigngrace

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sovereigngrace;

Answer these two questions.
Is the son giving the kingdom back to the father spiritual or physical?
When the Holy City comes down from Heaven and God tabernacles with men spiritual or physical? Jerry Kelso

There is only one king, reigning on one throne, over one kingdom. In His Davidic kingship, He rules the Israel of God - the redeemed of God; in His divine kingship, He rules all creation. These are two aspects of the one kingship - He is both God and man. This does not mean there are 2 kings, 2 kingdoms or 2 thrones. No. There are two aspects to Christ's kingship - human and divine.
 
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