"I never knew you'

Greengardener · Jan 3, 2020

It might be that it truly is a difficult concept to grasp, but there is a hand-in-glove connection between faith and works. Abraham demonstrated it when God told him to sacrifice his son and then commended him for starting the steps. "Now I know," it's recorded that God said. Jesus said He came to DO the will of the Father. (In other words, He didn't come to straighten out anyone's theology, but to work.) If the Holy Spirit leads us (and those led by the Spirit are the children of God), we will be lead to do what Jesus did and what God wanted us to do. Those works are proof of our faith. If we want to argue the grace/works point, it's like the story of the vine Jesus told us: He is the vine and we are to abide in Him and bear much fruit. Fruitless? Pruned off and tossed aside. Fruitful? Pruned to bear more fruit. How are those wonderful fruits of the Spirit identified? Usually by works, if you are honest. Love looks like these actions. Patience looks like those actions. Joy looks like other actions. Yes, there is an inward component, but if you were to ask someone if I seemed patient or at peace, they would describe actions or behaviors, compared to if you were to ask someone if I seemed loving or kind or meek or gentle, or self controlled. And it's well known that a person can change how they feel by acting the part first, because we're connected between our thoughts and our actions.

Jesus gets to make the final determination on this matter, obviously. For myself, I'd question whether I was in the faith if I didn't have a driving yearning to be in His word, praying, and looking for those opportunities that would fall into the category we might call "field work," where His fields are ripe for harvest and the workers are few. If I'm living my life centered on myself, I might just be fooling myself with confidence that grace alone without evidence of His work in my life was sufficient, not because God so loved us that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us, but because like Abraham, I want there to be all the evidence needed to convince God that I wasn't fooling when I prayed the sinner's prayer. Jesus is my example and He was totally obedient, so of course Jesus in me as my only hope is going to encourage my obedience to Him. What He wants us doing and how He wants us living is all over that Bible I have, but holding it near my heart is an entirely different matter than holding it IN my heart and doing what is written.

But that's how I figure it. Lots of folks argue about it. None of that will matter in that last day, so you get to pick your own adventure and see how it works out for yourself. I'm all for grace because I need His grace daily. I'm all for works of obedience, because I'd rather not be considered dis-obedient, personally. Jesus paid too big a price for me to take this casually. But, again, that's how I figure it.

timothyu · Jan 3, 2020

Greengardener said:
Jesus paid too big a price for me to take this casually.

Well He got His reward as King. We have to do what is required of us to be a part of it as our reward. Otherwise.. bye bye tares..

zoidar · Jan 3, 2020

HTacianas said:
We *enter into* salvation by grace through faith. We *remain* in that salvation based on our conduct. Now, after we enter into salvation do we continue to sin, or are we obedient?

Rom 6:16 - Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

And even more direct:

Heb 10:26 - For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27 - but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

Are you an Eastern Orthodox Christian?

HTacianas · Jan 3, 2020

zoidar said:
Are you an Eastern Orthodox Christian?

Yes.

Handmaid for Jesus · Jan 3, 2020

timothyu said:
So ... how does that compare to what you said?

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one in the same God. Do you agree?

aiki · Jan 3, 2020

Zachm531 said:
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

I believe that many people in the church today have a misunderstanding of what the Lord is saying. Before I delve into this I want to clarify in saying that I'm not sure if this view has been proposed before or not. Also, I could be wrong, I am not claiming certainty.

Many people understand this verse to be saying that you need faith AND WORKS to be saved because Jesus tells the sinners(workers of iniquity/lawlessness) to depart from him. If this is the case it seems to contradict all of the other claims of Jesus and the disciples that salvation comes by faith.

I believe that Jesus is referring to groups such as Jehovas Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims etc.. and let me explain why.

Here's an alternative perspective:

The rejected people in the story were all performing good works in Jesus's name. Nothing they pointed to as evidence of their fidelity to Christ was morally wrong or spiritually off-base - except that their claims to obeying God's will did not include the First and Great Commandment. (Matthew 22:36-38) Why not? The commands of God begin with this commandment, so why did those who were rejected not say, "We have loved you with all of our being!" Well, obviously, because they didn't. And this is why Christ rejected them. No amount of good deeds, no number of righteous acts performed in Christ's name, can make up for neglecting/disobeying the First and Great Commandment of God. Fear, self-righteousness, guilt, obligation, religious piety - none of these motives for obedience to God can replace the love motive instituted in the First and Great Commandment. And so it is that Paul wrote:

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I give all my goods to feed the poor and though I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

DeepWater · Jan 3, 2020

Zachm531 said:
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

I believe that many people in the church today have a misunderstanding of what the Lord is saying. Before I delve into this I want to clarify in saying that I'm not sure if this view has been proposed before or not. Also, I could be wrong, I am not claiming certainty.

Many people understand this verse to be saying that you need faith AND WORKS to be saved because Jesus tells the sinners(workers of iniquity/lawlessness) to depart from him. If this is the case it seems to contradict all of the other claims of Jesus and the disciples that salvation comes by faith.

I believe that Jesus is referring to groups such as Jehovas Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims etc.. and let me explain why.

These groups all have obscure and incorrect versions of Jesus Christ. Jehovas Witnesses believe that Jesus was the first MADE creation, Micheal the Archangel and that he is the brother of Lucifer. This is false according to scripture- See Hebrews 1 . The Mormons believe that Jesus was a man who through his obedience to the Father's law, became a god. This is also false. See Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 44:6 . and Muslims say that Jesus was just a prophet. This is false. See Hebrews 1:8 , Revelation 22:13 , Matthew 12:8 . Obviously there are many more examples to disprove all of these, but, you get my point. This is a false Jesus and we know that God doesn't fellowship or hear the unbelievers John 9:31

The thing that all man made religions have in common is the need for good works and the belief that good deeds outweighs bad deeds, and if you have more good then bad then you get to Heaven. The three groups I mentioned all believe in works based salvation. They believe that if they are obedient enough then they will be able to make it to Heaven. Of course we understand that this is false: Galatians 5:3 and Galatians 2:16 . If a man is to be justified by works then we are required to keep EVERY LAW. We know this is not possible and the author of Galatians states it clearly here Galatians 2:21 . If we are required to keep the law, then Jesus came for no reason. Hence if these people are trying to obtain salvation by works, then they are required to keep the whole of the law, which we have seen is impossible. Hence they fail and are therefore workers of lawlessness.

So on the last day, when the people of these groups say to Jesus: " Lord, Lord have we not done many GREAT WORKS in your name?" He will say "I never knew you". These people WERE doing GREAT WORKS but they had a false Jesus who wasn't the One and only TURE GOD, a Jesus who couldn't save by his work alone but also need their good works.

And when he calls them workers of iniquity, its not because they did not obey Gods law BUT quite the opposite, these people tried to be saved by the law. They were severed from Christ and fallen from grace ( Galatians 5:4 ) so they were required to keep the entire law! ( Galatians 5:3 ). We are not able to keep the entire law its impossible ( Romans 3:23 ).

Heretics love the verse you have quoted.
Its one of their favorites to twist, to try to prove to themselves that Born Again Christians, can end up in the lake of fire.

Let me explain the verse to you READER, so that you can understand that this verse cannot be talking about anyone who is saved/born again.
Look at this phrase Jesus speaks.. "I never KNEW you".
"I never KNEW YOU"....
This phrase is KEY, .......to understanding the context, regarding people in the verse, and realizing that this verse can't be talking about or describing anyone who is born again.
And here is why....
A Born again person, has been recognized by God, as having Faith, and God has redeemed them, and put them "in Christ", and into His ETERNAL family.
God is now literally living inside this person, the born again. The Holy Spirit is in them... Jesus Himself is in them...
Now watch this....
If Christ is in you and you are in Christ, then could Jesus honestly say that He does not know you, after He is living inside you, and God also, and the Holy Spirit?
Really?
So, sometimes, as much as you need LIGHT to see the Word being revealed, you just need to be able to use about a millimeter or 1/8th of an inch of common sense, also.
If that does not work for you, then find a good NT teacher like me and pay attention for a while and let me get you on the right track so that you can stay there.

Trust me when i tell you....That the second that you give God your faith, and He gives you "the righteousness of Christ", and you become an "heir of God", and a "Joint Heir with Christ", and "As Jesus is So are the born again IN THIS WORLD" , who are currently "seated in Heavenly places in Christ".... Trust me when i tell you that any ignorant devil led heretic who would tell you that Jesus does not know a born again Son of God and will get rid of a born again SAINT, in eternity....that is their HOME..... is not only a liar and a fool, but is trying to deceive you and everyone else as well.

St_Worm2 · Jan 3, 2020

HTacianas said:
We *enter into* salvation by grace through faith. We *remain* in that salvation based on our conduct.

Now, after we enter into salvation do we continue to sin, or are we obedient?

Hello again HTacianas, in answer to your question, if we have 'truly' been saved by God, then we will not continue leading the kind of sinful lifestyle that we did as a non-Christian, because God changes our hearts and our nature, and He makes us alive in Christ (spiritually) .. Ezekiel 36:26-27, Ephesians 2:4-5, and by doing so, our desires are changed as well. So, when we sinned in our natural state (outside of Christ), we did so ~according~ to our fallen nature, but when we sin now (if we are born again), we do so ~against~ our new nature .. e.g. Ephesians 4:22-24.

In reply to the other point you made above, if we are saved by what we "do", then we are not saved by God's "grace" (according to the Bible anyway .. see again the Scriptures in post #10 above).

God saving us from our fallen nature is a wonderful and wondrous thing to be sure, but if doing good works and choosing to live a holy lifestyle is "required" of us to be saved (and is therefore what actually saves us .. in the end) then we are NOT saved by God's grace (through faith in what "Jesus" did for us), rather, we are saved by what "we" do instead.

--David

HTacianas · Jan 3, 2020

St_Worm2 said:
Hello again HTacianas, in answer to your question, if we have 'truly' been saved by God, then we will not continue leading the kind of sinful lifestyle that we did as a non-Christian, because God changes our hearts and our nature, and He makes us alive in Christ (spiritually) .. Ezekiel 36:26-27, Ephesians 2:4-5, and by doing so, our desires are changed as well. So, when we sinned in our natural state (outside of Christ), we did so ~according~ to our fallen nature, but when we sin now (if we are born again), we do so ~against~ our new nature .. e.g. Ephesians 4:22-24.

In reply to the other point you made above, if we are saved by what we "do", then we are not saved by God's "grace" (according to the Bible anyway .. see again the Scriptures in post #10 above).

God saving us from our fallen nature is a wonderful and wondrous thing to be sure, but if doing good works and choosing to live a holy lifestyle is "required" of us to be saved (and is therefore what actually saves us .. in the end) then we are NOT saved by God's grace (through faith in what "Jesus" did for us), rather, we are saved by what "we" do instead.

--David

As I said before, we enter into salvation purely by faith and the grace of God. What is confusing you is that someone has told you that once you enter into salvation you can never forfeit it. They are leading you astray.

timothyu · Jan 3, 2020

Handmaid for Jesus said:
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one in the same God. Do you agree?

God is the governance we are to choose over the governance of man, so yes. Governance equates Kingdom.

Kenny'sID · Jan 3, 2020

Zachm531 said:
I believe that Jesus is referring to groups such as Jehovas Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims etc.. and let me explain why.

Why? What part of that verse so much as even indicates it's about those people? Surely you have some reason for the claim?

Zachm531 said:
These people WERE doing GREAT WORKS but they had a false Jesus who wasn't the One and only TURE GOD, a Jesus who couldn't save by his work alone but also need their good works.

That is not a false Jesus, here he is stating plain as day he needs us to do good, and even requires it for our salvation.

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Are you saying we can get to heaven without doing good, in spite of what Christ says right there?

St_Worm2 · Jan 3, 2020

HTacianas said:
As I said before, we enter into salvation purely by faith and the grace of God. What is confusing you is that someone has told you that once you enter into salvation you can never forfeit it. They are leading you astray.

But that's not the case at all brother.

There are many who, just like me, believe that they are saved (from first to last) by God's grace alone, not by anything that they do, who, at the same time, believe that they can turn away from/forfeit their salvation if they choose to do so later. I should know, since that's what I ardently believed for my first 10+ years as a Christian.

Rather, my confusion lies in trying to reconcile what the Bible teaches us, that we are saved by grace/by God's UN-merited favor towards us, through faith in Jesus and in what 'He' did for us/on our behalf, with what you are saying, that we are saved by what 'we' do instead (that we are the ones, rather than Jesus, who must merit salvation for ourselves).

I'm willing to consider that you may be correct, IOW, that God's grace is capable of saving us from our sinful nature alone, and that we are actually saved (to the uttermost) by the good works that we do, but you'll need to show me where the Bible teaches that ... instead of this:

Romans 11
6 If it is by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - in case I forgot to say it, HAPPY NEW YEAR

HTacianas · Jan 3, 2020

St_Worm2 said:
But that's not the case at all brother.

There are many who, just like me, believe that they are saved (from first to last) by God's grace alone, and not by anything that they do, who, at the same time, believe that they can turn away from/forfeit their salvation if they choose to do so later. I should know, since that's what I ardently believed for my first 10+ years as a Christian.

Rather, my confusion lies in trying to reconcile what the Bible teaches us, that we are saved by grace/by God's UN-merited favor towards us, through faith in Jesus and in what 'He' did for us/on our behalf), with what you are saying, that we are saved by what 'we' do instead (that we are the ones, rather than Jesus, who must merit salvation for ourselves).

I'm willing to consider that you may be correct, IOW, that God's grace is capable of saving us from our sinful nature alone, and that we are actually saved (to the uttermost) by the good works that we do, but you'll need to show me where the Bible teaches that ... instead of this:

Romans 11
6 If it is by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - in case I forgot to say it, HAPPY NEW YEAR

The difficulty you are having is believing when someone told you that salvation cannot be forfeited. It can. It can be forfeited through sin or apostasy.

To the earliest Christians, a single act of mortal sin led to damnation. See Hebrews 10:26. Minor sin could be forgiven at the prayer of another, but mortal sin could not be. See 1 John 5:16.

And there are those who fall away into apostasy, who the new testament states cannot be brought back. See Hebrews 6:4, et seq.

Once you understand that you will fear. See Philemon 2:12.

Oldmantook · Jan 3, 2020

Zachm531 said:
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

I believe that many people in the church today have a misunderstanding of what the Lord is saying. Before I delve into this I want to clarify in saying that I'm not sure if this view has been proposed before or not. Also, I could be wrong, I am not claiming certainty.

Many people understand this verse to be saying that you need faith AND WORKS to be saved because Jesus tells the sinners(workers of iniquity/lawlessness) to depart from him. If this is the case it seems to contradict all of the other claims of Jesus and the disciples that salvation comes by faith.

I believe that Jesus is referring to groups such as Jehovas Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims etc.. and let me explain why.

These groups all have obscure and incorrect versions of Jesus Christ. Jehovas Witnesses believe that Jesus was the first MADE creation, Micheal the Archangel and that he is the brother of Lucifer. This is false according to scripture- See Hebrews 1 . The Mormons believe that Jesus was a man who through his obedience to the Father's law, became a god. This is also false. See Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 44:6 . and Muslims say that Jesus was just a prophet. This is false. See Hebrews 1:8 , Revelation 22:13 , Matthew 12:8 . Obviously there are many more examples to disprove all of these, but, you get my point. This is a false Jesus and we know that God doesn't fellowship or hear the unbelievers John 9:31

The thing that all man made religions have in common is the need for good works and the belief that good deeds outweighs bad deeds, and if you have more good then bad then you get to Heaven. The three groups I mentioned all believe in works based salvation. They believe that if they are obedient enough then they will be able to make it to Heaven. Of course we understand that this is false: Galatians 5:3 and Galatians 2:16 . If a man is to be justified by works then we are required to keep EVERY LAW. We know this is not possible and the author of Galatians states it clearly here Galatians 2:21 . If we are required to keep the law, then Jesus came for no reason. Hence if these people are trying to obtain salvation by works, then they are required to keep the whole of the law, which we have seen is impossible. Hence they fail and are therefore workers of lawlessness.

So on the last day, when the people of these groups say to Jesus: " Lord, Lord have we not done many GREAT WORKS in your name?" He will say "I never knew you". These people WERE doing GREAT WORKS but they had a false Jesus who wasn't the One and only TURE GOD, a Jesus who couldn't save by his work alone but also need their good works.

And when he calls them workers of iniquity, its not because they did not obey Gods law BUT quite the opposite, these people tried to be saved by the law. They were severed from Christ and fallen from grace ( Galatians 5:4 ) so they were required to keep the entire law! ( Galatians 5:3 ). We are not able to keep the entire law its impossible ( Romans 3:23 ).

The passage defines itself. It declares "in your name" they cast out demons, prophesied, did miracles. Only believers can do the supernatural in Jesus' name - not unbelievers, not Mormons, not Jehovah Witnesses. The sons of Sceva attempted to do the same and I assume you know that they were spectacularly unsuccessful? Jesus did not contradict their claim that in His name they did those things. Thus these were genuine believers BUT Jesus stated that they DID NOT DO THE FATHER'S WILL (v.21) and instead PRACTICED LAWLESSNES (v.23) resulting in Jesus' command to depart from Him. In other words they had to depart because their lifestyle was one of disobedience despite the miracles performed. It's best to believe Jesus' own words.

timothyu · Jan 3, 2020

He could have just as easily said they were doing the wrong things....

Matthew 25:34-46 King James Version (KJV)
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

St_Worm2 · Jan 3, 2020

HTacianas said:
The difficulty you are having is believing when someone told you that salvation cannot be forfeited. It can.

We seem to be talking around each other at this point

As I said in my last post, I don't believe that this is the case at all, and here's why. There are MANY (including me in the past) who believe that:

1. salvation is by grace alone (NEVER by anything that we do/never by our good works) and
2. believe that they can forfeit/walk away from/lose their salvation if they choose to do so later.

The difficulty I'm still having with your thought that it's 'our works' that save us, rather than God's grace, is because of the Bible and what it teaches us about salvation (specifically, that we are saved by grace, through faith, apart from anything that 'we' do, and that our works are the ~result/fruit~ of our salvation, not the cause).

As St. Paul told us,

Ephesians 2
8 By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 ~not~ as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus ~for/unto~ good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

The majority of Protestants follow an Arminian/Free Will systematic theology. So, they (most often) believe that their salvation can be forfeited after they are born again, BUT, they also believe, along with the Bible, that they are saved by grace .. through faith, in Jesus and in what 'He' did for them, alone .. NEVER by their good works (again, just to be painfully clear here

, these are people who believe/teach that they are saved by grace alone .. AND .. that their salvation can be lost).

--David

HTacianas · Jan 3, 2020

St_Worm2 said:
We seem to be talking around each other at this point

As I said in my last post, I don't believe that this is the case at all, and here's why. There are MANY (including me in the past) who believe that:

1. salvation is by grace alone (NEVER by anything that we do/never by our good works) and
2. believe that they can forfeit/walk away from/lose their salvation if they choose to do so later.

The difficulty I'm still having with your thought that it's our works that save us, rather than God's grace, is because of the Bible and what it teaches (specifically, that we are saved by grace, through faith, apart from anything that 'we' do, and that our works are the ~result/fruit~ of our salvation, not the cause.

As St. Paul told us,

Ephesians 2
8 By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 ~not~ as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus ~for/unto~ good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

The majority of Protestants follow an Arminian/Free Will systematic theology. So, they (most often) believe that their salvation can be forfeited after they are born again, BUT, they also believe, along with the Bible, that they are saved by grace ..through faith .. in Jesus and in what 'He' did for them, alone, NEVER by their good works (again, just to be painfully clear here , these are people who believe/teach that they are saved by grace alone AND that they can lost their salvation).

--David

I understand your point but I think you are missing mine.

We are saved by faith soley through the grace of God. Ephesians 2 gives examples of all the things the Ephesians were wrapped up in previously before they were saved but God saved them anyway. All of those things were in the past. Regardless of what they had previously done, it was forgiven and they entered into the grace of God.

Afterwards they were required to behave themselves else they would be cut off from salvation just like us.

Blade · Jan 3, 2020

Well bless you

. It seems this happens when Christ sets foot on the earth and as its written gathers the nations. I don't read about those that already died. These are those after the great tribulation.

And I disagree its the groups you said. See Christ says "I never knew you". We might have said this to some one we thought we knew..like "man.. I guess I never knew you". Christ knows the heart. So when He says "I NEVER".. thats what He means. He never knew them. Meaning they were not saved. And its no one right now in this world. The great tribulation has to happen.

redleghunter · Jan 3, 2020

Zachm531 said:
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

I believe that many people in the church today have a misunderstanding of what the Lord is saying. Before I delve into this I want to clarify in saying that I'm not sure if this view has been proposed before or not. Also, I could be wrong, I am not claiming certainty.

Many people understand this verse to be saying that you need faith AND WORKS to be saved because Jesus tells the sinners(workers of iniquity/lawlessness) to depart from him. If this is the case it seems to contradict all of the other claims of Jesus and the disciples that salvation comes by faith.

I believe that Jesus is referring to groups such as Jehovas Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims etc.. and let me explain why.

These groups all have obscure and incorrect versions of Jesus Christ. Jehovas Witnesses believe that Jesus was the first MADE creation, Micheal the Archangel and that he is the brother of Lucifer. This is false according to scripture- See Hebrews 1 . The Mormons believe that Jesus was a man who through his obedience to the Father's law, became a god. This is also false. See Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 44:6 . and Muslims say that Jesus was just a prophet. This is false. See Hebrews 1:8 , Revelation 22:13 , Matthew 12:8 . Obviously there are many more examples to disprove all of these, but, you get my point. This is a false Jesus and we know that God doesn't fellowship or hear the unbelievers John 9:31

The thing that all man made religions have in common is the need for good works and the belief that good deeds outweighs bad deeds, and if you have more good then bad then you get to Heaven. The three groups I mentioned all believe in works based salvation. They believe that if they are obedient enough then they will be able to make it to Heaven. Of course we understand that this is false: Galatians 5:3 and Galatians 2:16 . If a man is to be justified by works then we are required to keep EVERY LAW. We know this is not possible and the author of Galatians states it clearly here Galatians 2:21 . If we are required to keep the law, then Jesus came for no reason. Hence if these people are trying to obtain salvation by works, then they are required to keep the whole of the law, which we have seen is impossible. Hence they fail and are therefore workers of lawlessness.

So on the last day, when the people of these groups say to Jesus: " Lord, Lord have we not done many GREAT WORKS in your name?" He will say "I never knew you". These people WERE doing GREAT WORKS but they had a false Jesus who wasn't the One and only TURE GOD, a Jesus who couldn't save by his work alone but also need their good works.

And when he calls them workers of iniquity, its not because they did not obey Gods law BUT quite the opposite, these people tried to be saved by the law. They were severed from Christ and fallen from grace ( Galatians 5:4 ) so they were required to keep the entire law! ( Galatians 5:3 ). We are not able to keep the entire law its impossible ( Romans 3:23 ).

Think you are on to something here. Let’s visit the text:

Matthew 7: NASB

21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ (NASB)

Notice their argument is on what they did.

redleghunter · Jan 3, 2020

HTacianas said:
We enter in to salvation by faith alone and by grace alone. It is not a reward for anything we may have done previously, either good or bad, see Ephesians 2. It is our works afterwards that justify us and keep us in God's grace, see James, and others.

That is now and always has been the gospel. It has never changed.

Your position is we are justified by Grace but our works keep us justified?

"I never knew you'

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