Terral

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Hi Sweetycakes1:

Thank you for writing on the Two Gospels topic. You wrote:

Why is it called a "Gospel?" Where does that word come from?

Let us first present the Bible verses containing these phrases to then identify the "Gospel" term origins:

"Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people." Matthew 4:23.

Gospel #G2098:

euaggelion
  1. a reward for good tidings
  2. good tidings
    1. the glad tidings of the kingdom of God soon to be set up, and subsequently also of Jesus the Messiah, the founder of this kingdom. After the death of Christ, the term comprises also the preaching of (concerning) Jesus Christ as having suffered death on the cross to procure eternal salvation for the men in the kingdom of God, but as restored to life and exalted to the right hand of God in heaven, thence to return in majesty to consummate the kingdom of God
    2. the glad tidings of salvation through Christ
    3. the proclamation of the grace of God manifest and pledged in Christ
    4. the gospel
    5. as the messianic rank of Jesus was proved by his words, his deeds, and his death, the narrative of the sayings, deeds, and death of Jesus Christ came to be called the gospel or glad tidings

The "Gospel of the Kingdom" is the name provided for the good news message that the kingdom of God/heaven was "at hand" described as Gospel #1 in the Opening Post. Paul makes reference to our gospel message for today, saying,

"But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God [Gospel #2]. And now, behold, I know that all of you, among whom I went about preaching the kingdom [Gospel #1], will no longer see my face. Therefore, I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God." Act 20:24-27.

The "whole purpose of God" includes "preaching the kingdom" in the Four Gospels, early Acts and Hebrews-Revelation for gathering disciples to the Kingdom Bride "and" preaching the "gospel of the grace of God" for gathering brethren to the Mystery Body of Christ today. Some people mix the doctrine precepts teaching these two gospel messages together to create their own man-made good news message that God sent to nobody. The debate is dedicated to helping others see the differences to avoid adding "works" from the Gospel of the Kingdom (repentance, water baptism, laying hands for the Holy Spirit) to our gospel today that includes salvation by God's grace through faith apart from works. Ephesians 2:8-10.

Blessings,

Terral
 
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nolidad

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It is fine-and-dandy stating this, but where is your Scripture? Show us Scripture that teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ? Well, we live in a day where people just swallow what they are taught! They do not search it out for themselves.

Well the rapture is covered by:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 King James Version (KJV)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

As for the Trib- it doesn't necessarily happen immediately after.

As for the 7 year Trib:

Daniel 9:24-27 King James Version (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The signing of the covenant between this prince and the leaders of Israel starts the 70th week!

Now for other places that verify this time of tribulation and the breaking of the covenant 3 1/2 years in:

Matthew 24:15-21 King James Version (KJV)
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

There are many many more speaking of the last 7 years before Jesus return.


But as for the physical return of Jesus Christ? Do you really want me to post all the verses that say Jesus would come back a second time?

Matthew 24:27
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Acts 1:11 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

1 John 4:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

The "is come" in vses 2&3 is the 2nd perfect active participle and is rendered is coming.


Matthew 25:31-46 [Full Chapter]
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. .

Revelation 1:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Revelation 19:11-16 King James Version (KJV)
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords


Jesus is returning to earth to establish His Kingdom as promised!
 
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nolidad

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Hi Nolidad:

Thank you for writing on the Two Gospels of the NT topic. You wrote:


We definitely disagree. Those obeying our Gospel of the Grace of God receive the "faith of Jesus" (Rom. 3:26) to represent those to whom "faith has come." This is "dispensational truth" for members of Christ's Body saved by God's grace through faith apart from works. However, Israel of the flesh and the Kingdom Bride (Peter, John, James, etc.) remain very much under Mosaic Law, as Christ teaches in Matthew 5:17-19 and as James teaches in James 2:10.



Perhaps you are referencing the "administration of the mystery" (Eph. 3:9) concerning the "dispensation/stewardship of God's grace" from Ephesians 3:2. The key here is that Gentiles 'and' Jews obeying our gospel are members of Christ's body and are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:14. Unbelieving Jews remain very much under Mosaic Law, while Gentiles "who do not have the Law" (Rom. 2:13-14) and just not members of Christ's Body like those obeying our gospel.

Blessings,

Terral


Well I do not know how yo come to these conclusions. But OT saints ended at Pentecost and after that point, anyone who exercises saving faith are placed into the body of Christ.

The Apostles are part of the church.

The law is now null and void being fulfilled completely by Christ! Paul in Romans and Galatians makes this very clear! Besides the law was not designed to save people ever.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Well the rapture is covered by:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 King James Version (KJV)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

As for the Trib- it doesn't necessarily happen immediately after.

There is no text that you have presented that teachers (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ. Zero, zilch, zip, nada! This is a manipulated and manufactured concoction of unrelated texts that Pretribbers dump into an imaginary period that will never happen.

We all believe that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 is the catching away, but this is "the end." The righteous are rescued and the wicked are destroyed. Where is the Pretrib 7 years tribulation after the catching away in 1 Thessalonians 4? Nowhere!

Pretribbers refuse to go into the next chapter that is speaking about the same event. I remember there was no chapters in the original letter.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The “wrath” of God is here linked with the “sudden destruction” that befalls those that are in the dark when Jesus comes. Significantly the whole context of this reading is the destruction of those who abide in darkness and the rescue of those who are in light. There is no third group that is half enlightened. Despite the destruction that hits all left behind the writers reassures the believer that they will escape this awful fate.

As for the 7 year Trib:

Daniel 9:24-27 King James Version (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The signing of the covenant between this prince and the leaders of Israel starts the 70th week!

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

Now for other places that verify this time of tribulation and the breaking of the covenant 3 1/2 years in:

Matthew 24:15-21 King James Version (KJV)
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

In His discourse in Matthew 23:37-24:2 the Lord warns, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord (the second coming). Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The religious Jews of Jerusalem were about to witness the destruction of their temple. Moreover, that ruination would remain in place from its demolition right up until the second coming of the Lord. The desolation of the temple significantly occurred on the wing of 40 years of idolatrous temple sacrifices (exactly a generation)? The statement “there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down” was plainly referring to, and correlating with, the warning He had just made to the religious Jews about the impending destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. It was also a direct reference to Daniel 9.

Matthew 24:1-2 records, “And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Christ was specifically speaking here of “the buildings of the temple” not the city. You cannot anywhere find that Israel is described as this. This is literal precise detail!

Mark 13:1-2 records, “And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here. And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

In this parallel account, Mark corroborates the thought of Matthew.

Luke 21:5-6 records, “And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The disciples then asked two questions in Matthew 24 in response tom our Lord’s words.

Matthew 24:3 records:

1. When shall these things be?”
2. What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

Mark 13:4 records:

1. When shall these things be?”
2. What shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled (finished or ended)?

Luke 21:7 records:

1. When shall these things be?”
2. What sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?”

Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the second coming.

In His response to the first question in Matthew 24:15-22, He spoke of the end of the 40 year probationary period (AD 70), saying, When ye (the disciples) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

Mark 13:14-20 says, when ye (the disciples) shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.”

This can only refer to the wrath of God being poured out on Jerusalem that destroyed the existing socio-political/cultural/religious system of Judaism, which was an offence to God. This people were decimated. Their religious system was effectively brought to nought. Nothing before AD 70, or after it, could compare in regard to the extent of its demise. Luke 21:20-24 reinforces that we are looking at AD 70.

Luke’s parallel passage, in Luke 21:20-24, records, when ye (the disciples) shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! For there shall be great distress (anagke) in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

A comparison of these three accounts will see the correlation in teaching. Plainly: the abomination of desolation … standing where it ought not” or standingin the holy place relates to the Roman soldiers that would destroy the city of Jerusalem. Luke adds meat to the bones, saying: “when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.” Here is the warning sign to run! There is also the limitation of that judgment so that the Gospel would spread to the nations. The Gospel spread as Jewish families were spread throughout the world.

The Lord tells us that unless this judgment upon Jerusalem was shortened “there should no flesh be saved” (Matthew 24:22). In essence, what He was saying was, there would have been no possibility of Jewish Christians surviving it and consequently no hope of a lost Gentile world receiving this great Gospel if God’s wrath would not have been limited to a short time-period in relative terms. If the wrath of God would have continued to be poured out on wicked man as it was on Jerusalem then mankind would have been finished. But it was restricted to Christ-rejecting Jerusalem.

How can futurists seriously relate these parallel accounts of the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, which resulted in the unbelieving Jews being dispersed to “all nations,” to a supposed seven-year end-time persecution of the Church of Jesus Christ? Remember, it was this awful approaching judgment upon the Jews that caused Christ to weep over Jerusalem, crying, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”
 
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sovereigngrace

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2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

There are many many more speaking of the last 7 years before Jesus return.

You force that into the sacred text. It is not there. There is no 7-years trib anywhere in Scripture. You will find it in the Left Behind novels!

But as for the physical return of Jesus Christ? Do you really want me to post all the verses that say Jesus would come back a second time?

I know them. You have to prove that He will come back a third time - the second time to the sky, the third time to the earth. The two-fold coming is NOT in the Bible. There was no "Christian" writer that taught this '2-future-comings' theory up until Emmanuel Lacunza (or Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz), a Chilean theologian of Spanish descent (born in Santiago, Chile, July 19, 1731, and died at Imola, Italy, June 17, 1801). Lacunza wrote ‘La venida del Mesias en Gloria y Majestad, Observaciones,’ which is ‘The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty.’ Lacunza wrote the book under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben-Ezra as a "converted Jew". Lacunza died in June 1801, before the book was ever published in book form. Rev. Edward Irving, translated this Jesuit book of Lacunza from the Spanish in 1826, and it was published in English by L.B. Seely and Son, Fleet Street, London, in 1827. This is the origin of Pretrib. Edward Irving and J.N. Darby then formulated the Pretrib theory.

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Christ's coming shall be sudden as lightning. What is more sudden and spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid!. It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret snatch in this text.

Acts 1:11 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Acts 1:9-11 says, “while they (the disciples) beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

Heaven
and not earth, is the focus of the disciples’ attention; heaven being mentioned here four times, earth, Jerusalem and/or the Mount of Olives not once. This narrative clearly shows how the disciples were looking up towards heaven not down towards earth. That is why the angels asked the disciples, “why stand ye gazing up into heaven?” Moreover, the angels’ instruction, which followed their enquiry concerning this significant incident, is totally concentrated upon the manner that Christ went up into heaven.

1 John 4:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

The "is come" in vses 2&3 is the 2nd perfect active participle and is rendered is coming.

LOL. The "perfect active participle" means it is ongoing! It is currently being fulfilled!

[Full Chapter]
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

There are only two types of people that Jesus encounters at His one final future coming - the saved and the lost. The saved and put on his lap right hand, the wicked are put on his left. This is the end of the world. The sheep “inherit the kingdom” (Matthew 25:34) and “life eternal” (Matthew 25:46) whereas the goats are cast “into everlasting fire” (Matthew 25:41) and receive “everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46).

Revelation 1:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This is Christ's one final future coming. This text forbids Pretrib.

Revelation 19:11-16 King James Version (KJV)
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords


Jesus is returning to earth to establish His Kingdom as promised!

Revelation 19 describes the climactic coming of the Lord and the destruction of all the wicked. It tells us that “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great” would be destroyed. The suffix "both free and bond, both small and great” is added to insure even Premils couldn't wiggle out of this. The beast's army relates to all who are not in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. That is as water-tight in my estimation and as comprehensive and all-embracing as the Holy Spirit can explain it. Obviously not enough for Premils, with their preconceived doctrine on chronology.
 
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Guojing

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Well I do not know how yo come to these conclusions. But OT saints ended at Pentecost and after that point, anyone who exercises saving faith are placed into the body of Christ.

The Apostles are part of the church.

The law is now null and void being fulfilled completely by Christ! Paul in Romans and Galatians makes this very clear! Besides the law was not designed to save people ever.

The Body of Christ could not have begun in Acts 2. Peter only addressed the Jews in all his sermons before Cornelius. He even told the latter that it was against the Law for a Jew to associate himself with Gentiles.
 
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This can only refer to the wrath of God being poured out on Jerusalem that destroyed the existing socio-political/cultural/religious system of Judaism, which was an offence to God. This people were decimated. Their religious system was effectively brought to nought. Nothing before AD 70, or after it, could compare in regard to the extent of its demise. Luke 21:20-24 reinforces that we are looking at AD 70.

You are very incorrect in this preteristic view. There have been events far more devastating in the world! Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, Tokyo come to mind in one event. Remember much of this is global.

YOu seem to forget that the abomination of desolation standing in the holy of holies! That did not happen!

The 70 AD destruction is described in Luke:

Luke 21:19-21 King James Version (KJV)
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

The sign in Mark and MAtthew is different- teh abomination of desolation, so the MAtthew event is for a different era! Remember the disciples asked 3 questions that were answered in the Olivet Discourse:

!. when will the temple be destroyed
2. What will be the sign of your coming
3. What will be the sign of the end of the age.

There is no text that you have presented that teachers (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ. Zero, zilch, zip, nada! This is a manipulated and manufactured concoction of unrelated texts that Pretribbers dump into an imaginary period that will never happen.

We all believe that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 is the catching away, but this is "the end." The righteous are rescued and the wicked are destroyed. Where is the Pretrib 7 years tribulation after the catching away in 1 Thessalonians 4? Nowhere!

Pretribbers refuse to go into the next chapter that is speaking about the same event. I remember there was no chapters in the original letter.

1 Thess. 4 is the rapture! Prior to the 70th week of Daniel! Which starts when the prince that shall come in Daniel 9 signs a 7 year covenant with Israel.

The catching up in 1 Thess. is a form of harpazo which is a taking by force! Jesus grabbing the alive to meet the resurrected dead of the church while He is descending to return to earth is just foolish!

BTW Who is the "we all believe"? are you multiple personalities or writing for several others?

The pretrib or pre 70th week rapture is based on several verses!

1. Daniel 9 the 70 weeks are for Daniels' people (the Jews) and not for the church! Part of the 70th week is to bring Israel back to her land (in process) to prepare them to be purged of unbelievers!

2. 1 Thess. 5 Wherer Paul says the church (we) are not destined for wrath. As the context is the day of the Lord which is the tribulation period or 70th week of Daniel- we are not destined for the wrath.

3. When wrath is used in the Bible it is almost exclusively of the tribulation period. As wrath here is in the context of the trib period (the day of the Lord) The church is not destined for that time of great tribulation.
http://www.arielcontent.org/dcs/pdf/mbs039m.pdf

As the catching up is noever given a specific time- one has to glean it from the rest of Scripture involved in the end time.

Here is an excellent biblical study:
http://www.arielcontent.org/dcs/pdf/mbs039m.pdf


A comparison of these three accounts will see the correlation in teaching. Plainly: the abomination of desolation … standing where it ought not” or standingin the holy place relates to the Roman soldiers that would destroy the city of Jerusalem. Luke adds meat to the bones, saying: “when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.” Here is the warning sign to run! There is also the limitation of that judgment so that the Gospel would spread to the nations. The Gospel spread as Jewish families were spread throughout the world.

The Lord tells us that unless this judgment upon Jerusalem was shortened “there should no flesh be saved” (Matthew 24:22). In essence, what He was saying was, there would have been no possibility of Jewish Christians surviving it and consequently no hope of a lost Gentile world receiving this great Gospel if God’s wrath would not have been limited to a short time-period in relative terms. If the wrath of God would have continued to be poured out on wicked man as it was on Jerusalem then mankind would have been finished. But it was restricted to Christ-rejecting Jerusalem.

The holy place is the holy of holies that the man of sin in Thess. will do. No cesar or even Roman General ever entered the holy place declaring themselves God.

Once again Matthew and Mark give on e sign for one event. Luke gives the sign for the Judgment of Jerusalem for the unpardonable sin committed in Matt. 12.

The Luke passage shows the conclusion that Jews will be carried away by the sword and Jerusalem trodden down by Gentiles UNTIL the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled!

Matt. 24 shows the conclusion thusly:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is another reason why Matthew and Mark are a different judgment than Luke.

Luke concludes with judgments and punishment on Israel and Jerusalem. Matthew concludes with the return of Jesus Christ!

How can futurists seriously relate these parallel accounts of the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, which resulted in the unbelieving Jews being dispersed to “all nations,” to a supposed seven-year end-time persecution of the Church of Jesus Christ? Remember, it was this awful approaching judgment upon the Jews that caused Christ to weep over Jerusalem, crying, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”

Well post trib futurists do, but biblical pre-tribbers definitely don't! We recognize by the language of Scripture without having to intimate things or subtly suggest that the writers kind of missed stuff and you all are filling in the blanks.

The church leaves the earth before the 70th week of Daniel commences. This is the church or body of Christ. It is believers from Pentecost to the rapture ONLY!

Yes Jesus did weep over Jerusalem for the peoples rejection. But He also is going to save future Israel in the end of the 70th week as is promised in Jeremiah 31 in the New Covenant and Romans 11.

Interesting that you didn't mention that in 66 AD when Titus began the siege of Jerusalem, He left to go back to Rome to see his father Vespasian crowned Cesar. Jewish believers, remembering the warning of Luke all left Israel and Jerusalem to the Syrian city of Pella. Unbelieving Jews didn't and when Titus returned and finished the siege- 1.1 million Jews were killed! There has been worse tribulation since and even before! Antiochus Epiphenes did far more vile things to Jerusalem and Jews than Titus and killed a greater % as well as sacrificing a pig on teh altar.

Titus had ordered his legions to not destroy the Temple but an errant torch fired the temple and fulfilled the prophecy Jesus gave when He said not stone would be left upon another (also the first question the disciples asked on the Mount of Olives in Matt. 24) Th efire raged so hot it melted all the gold which seeped between the stones. When it cooled the soldiers literally pulled every stone down to get teh gold.
 
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nolidad

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The Body of Christ could not have begun in Acts 2. Peter only addressed the Jews in all his sermons before Cornelius. He even told the latter that it was against the Law for a Jew to associate himself with Gentiles.

Sorry but it did! It doesn't matter if the start of the church was all Jewish. Even Jesus said start with Israel first and go into the world! It was the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the believers being born again at Pentecost that started the church. It did spread as Jesus said!

The bible is quoting Peter accurately in that Jews were not allowed to fellowship with Gentiles, the whole point of th evision and Cornelius was to show Peter that Gentiles were fully accepted into teh Body of Christ!.
 
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nolidad

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You force that into the sacred text. It is not there. There is no 7-years trib anywhere in Scripture. You will find it in the Left Behind novels!

Sorry but no! Yes there is a 7 year trib in teh bible.

Daniel 9:
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The he of verse 27 goes back to its nearest antecedent which is the he (or Prince of the people that will destroy Jerusalem).

In the middle of that last 7 years the Prince that is to come will cause the entire sascrificial system to stop! This corresponds to Matt 24 abomination and Revelation 12

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Times time and 1/2 time is 3 1/2 years.

Also rev. 11:

Revelation 11:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

These did not happen under Titus or Nero and are still future! notice how they both are 1/2 of 7 years and correspond nicely with Jesus warning about a man who will cause abominations and make the temple desolate?

Sorry this fits the Bible far more accurately than making unfounded implications and assuming tribulation of 66-70 were the worst in human history!

LOL. The "perfect active participle" means it is ongoing! It is currently being fulfilled!

You need to study your greek again
actrive means the the subject is doing- perfect means it is once for all and the participle makes the verb to have to end in "ed" or "ing" as come cannot be written comed it is then written properly in English as "to come" or "coming"


I know them. You have to prove that He will come back a third time - the second time to the sky, the third time to the earth. The two-fold coming is NOT in the Bible. There was no "Christian" writer that taught this '2-future-comings' theory up until Emmanuel Lacunza (or Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz), a Chilean theologian of Spanish descent (born in Santiago, Chile, July 19, 1731, and died at Imola, Italy, June 17, 1801). Lacunza wrote ‘La venida del Mesias en Gloria y Majestad, Observaciones,’ which is ‘The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty.’ Lacunza wrote the book under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben-Ezra as a "converted Jew". Lacunza died in June 1801, before the book was ever published in book form. Rev. Edward Irving, translated this Jesuit book of Lacunza from the Spanish in 1826, and it was published in English by L.B. Seely and Son, Fleet Street, London, in 1827. This is the origin of Pretrib. Edward Irving and J.N. Darby then formulated the Pretrib theory.

I agree that a "two fold " coming is unbiblical. You need to understand the rapture is not Jesus coming! Jesus second coming is described in REv. 19.

The rapture is its own event and not related to Jesus second coming! Him returning to the atmosphere is not a returning- for that requires HIm coming back to Earth which he does not at the Rapture.

He catches the church so that we can undergo the Bema judgment of 1 Cor. 3, then after the judgment the church is wedded to Jesus in heaven as declared in REv. 19. After this- the Second Coming takes place. That is reading Scripture as written and rightly dividing the Word of Truth. As for all these guys you mention, I could care less what they think or wrote.

Christ's coming shall be sudden as lightning. What is more sudden and spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid!. It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret snatch in this text.

I agree! Because the rapture is not part of the second coming! It is an event that happens before the 70th week of Daniel commences. And it is not a secret snatch- the whole world will know that millions upon millions disappeared!

There are only two types of people that Jesus encounters at His one final future coming - the saved and the lost. The saved and put on his lap right hand, the wicked are put on his left. This is the end of the world. The sheep “inherit the kingdom” (Matthew 25:34) and “life eternal” (Matthew 25:46) whereas the goats are cast “into everlasting fire” (Matthew 25:41) and receive “everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46).

No it is not the end of the world. It is the start of the 1,000 year kingdom written extensively in the OT, confirmed in the New and given its length in the book of REvelation.

This is Christ's one final future coming. This text forbids Pretrib.

I agree with you 100% here!

Revelation 19 describes the climactic coming of the Lord and the destruction of all the wicked. It tells us that “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great” would be destroyed. The suffix "both free and bond, both small and great” is added to insure even Premils couldn't wiggle out of this. The beast's army relates to all who are not in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. That is as water-tight in my estimation and as comprehensive and all-embracing as the Holy Spirit can explain it. Obviously not enough for Premils, with their preconceived doctrine on chronology.

Well this is not the end of time. It is Jesus return, the killing of all the antichrists troops. (casting them into the place of torments or hell/sheol/hades), Then comes the cleansing and the sheep/goat judgment. Then the millenial kingdom! Then Satan released, one more gathering and then eterntiy will recommence! REv. 21 follows 20 which follows 19!
 
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Guojing

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Sorry but it did! It doesn't matter if the start of the church was all Jewish. Even Jesus said start with Israel first and go into the world! It was the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the believers being born again at Pentecost that started the church. It did spread as Jesus said!

The bible is quoting Peter accurately in that Jews were not allowed to fellowship with Gentiles, the whole point of th evision and Cornelius was to show Peter that Gentiles were fully accepted into teh Body of Christ!.

but that acceptance did not start until Stephen was stoned correct?

so gentiles could only be saved without being Jews during mid acts

you also have issues with Ananias and sapphira death sentence if you take the grace dispensation beginning at acts 2
 
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sovereigngrace

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You are very incorrect in this preteristic view. There have been events far more devastating in the world! Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, Tokyo come to mind in one event. Remember much of this is global.

YOu seem to forget that the abomination of desolation standing in the holy of holies! That did not happen!

The 70 AD destruction is described in Luke:

Luke 21:19-21 King James Version (KJV)
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

The sign in Mark and MAtthew is different- teh abomination of desolation, so the MAtthew event is for a different era! Remember the disciples asked 3 questions that were answered in the Olivet Discourse:

!. when will the temple be destroyed
2. What will be the sign of your coming
3. What will be the sign of the end of the age.

My last post actually addresses this. But you ignore it!

This can only refer to the wrath of God being poured out on Jerusalem that destroyed the existing socio-political/cultural/religious system of Judaism, which was an offence to God. This people were decimated. Their religious system was effectively brought to nought. Nothing before AD 70, or after it, could compare in regard to the extent of its demise. Luke 21:20-24 reinforces that we are looking at AD 70.

1 Thess. 4 is the rapture! Prior to the 70th week of Daniel! Which starts when the prince that shall come in Daniel 9 signs a 7 year covenant with Israel.

The catching up in 1 Thess. is a form of harpazo which is a taking by force! Jesus grabbing the alive to meet the resurrected dead of the church while He is descending to return to earth is just foolish!

Where does it say this in either 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 or Daniel 9, or anywhere else in Scripture for that matter? Nowhere!!! You force it on the sacred text.

Where is a 7 years trib, or any trib mentioned after the "rapture" in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18?

BTW Who is the "we all believe"? are you multiple personalities or writing for several others?

No need for the usual Pretrib nastiness. It doesn't advance your cause! I was stating generally accepted truth amongst all sane Bible students.

The pretrib or pre 70th week rapture is based on several verses!

1. Daniel 9 the 70 weeks are for Daniels' people (the Jews) and not for the church! Part of the 70th week is to bring Israel back to her land (in process) to prepare them to be purged of unbelievers!

Maybe you would be the first Pretribber on this board to address my questions:

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

2. 1 Thess. 5 Wherer Paul says the church (we) are not destined for wrath. As the context is the day of the Lord which is the tribulation period or 70th week of Daniel- we are not destined for the wrath.

What are you talking about?

3. When wrath is used in the Bible it is almost exclusively of the tribulation period. As wrath here is in the context of the trib period (the day of the Lord) The church is not destined for that time of great tribulation.
http://www.arielcontent.org/dcs/pdf/mbs039m.pdf

One of the arguments advanced by Pretribbers for a Pretrib Rapture is the reasoning that the righteous must be rescued prior to the tribulation, as God can’t pour His wrath out upon the righteous. However, if there was a post-Second coming seven year great tribulation as commonly defined by Pretribbers, then the wrath of God is undoubtedly upon now-believing national Israel and the righteous tribulation saints. Revelation 7:9 describes, “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues” in their tribulation period. The idea that the elect must be removed in order to allow the Lord to pour His wrath upon the wicked is untenable in the light the unprecedented revival growth of the Gospel in this supposed 7-year period. From a starting point of zero, the elect of God amazingly grow to an innumerable number.

Scripture knows of no seven-year tribulation period subsequent to the one final future Coming of Christ. There is only one reference to the term seven-years in the New Testament in Luke 2:36. It describes “Anna” living with her “husband seven years from her virginity.” No other reference!!!

Posttribulationists, on the other hand, believe that the wrath of God is continually upon the wicked but that the Church will escape the final “day of his wrath” at the appearing of Christ at the second coming (after the Church has been rescued). However, the Church has always been under tribulation in the intra-Advent period, this is the tribulation of Satan that Christ recompenses at His appearing.

As the catching up is noever given a specific time- one has to glean it from the rest of Scripture involved in the end time.

Here is an excellent biblical study:
http://www.arielcontent.org/dcs/pdf/mbs039m.pdf

You should read over what you write before you post it. It's very difficult to understand some of what you're saying.

BTW, I have no interest in your Pretrib links. You are wasting your time! I have read enough Pretrib material over the years to do me a lifetime. That is why I abandoned it. It doesn't add up.

The holy place is the holy of holies that the man of sin in Thess. will do. No cesar or even Roman General ever entered the holy place declaring themselves God.

Once again Matthew and Mark give on e sign for one event. Luke gives the sign for the Judgment of Jerusalem for the unpardonable sin committed in Matt. 12.

The Luke passage shows the conclusion that Jews will be carried away by the sword and Jerusalem trodden down by Gentiles UNTIL the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled!

This all happened in AD70!!!

Matt. 24 shows the conclusion thusly:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is another reason why Matthew and Mark are a different judgment than Luke.

Luke concludes with judgments and punishment on Israel and Jerusalem. Matthew concludes with the return of Jesus Christ!

My initial post proves the opposite!!!

Well post trib futurists do, but biblical pre-tribbers definitely don't! We recognize by the language of Scripture without having to intimate things or subtly suggest that the writers kind of missed stuff and you all are filling in the blanks.

The church leaves the earth before the 70th week of Daniel commences. This is the church or body of Christ. It is believers from Pentecost to the rapture ONLY!

Yes Jesus did weep over Jerusalem for the peoples rejection. But He also is going to save future Israel in the end of the 70th week as is promised in Jeremiah 31 in the New Covenant and Romans 11.

Interesting that you didn't mention that in 66 AD when Titus began the siege of Jerusalem, He left to go back to Rome to see his father Vespasian crowned Cesar. Jewish believers, remembering the warning of Luke all left Israel and Jerusalem to the Syrian city of Pella. Unbelieving Jews didn't and when Titus returned and finished the siege- 1.1 million Jews were killed! There has been worse tribulation since and even before! Antiochus Epiphenes did far more vile things to Jerusalem and Jews than Titus and killed a greater % as well as sacrificing a pig on teh altar.

Titus had ordered his legions to not destroy the Temple but an errant torch fired the temple and fulfilled the prophecy Jesus gave when He said not stone would be left upon another (also the first question the disciples asked on the Mount of Olives in Matt. 24) Th efire raged so hot it melted all the gold which seeped between the stones. When it cooled the soldiers literally pulled every stone down to get teh gold.

See my questions above. Pretribber cannot even show it in the sacred text.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Sorry but no! Yes there is a 7 year trib in teh bible.

Daniel 9:
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The he of verse 27 goes back to its nearest antecedent which is the he (or Prince of the people that will destroy Jerusalem).

In the middle of that last 7 years the Prince that is to come will cause the entire sascrificial system to stop! This corresponds to Matt 24 abomination and Revelation 12

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Times time and 1/2 time is 3 1/2 years.

Also rev. 11:

Revelation 11:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

These did not happen under Titus or Nero and are still future! notice how they both are 1/2 of 7 years and correspond nicely with Jesus warning about a man who will cause abominations and make the temple desolate?

Sorry this fits the Bible far more accurately than making unfounded implications and assuming tribulation of 66-70 were the worst in human history!

You are reading too many left behind novels. Of course, Pretrib has no proof-text, it is all man-made speculation. Every theory falls apart when examined by the Book. The question no Pretrib will (or can) answer is:

What scriptural proof is there that teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

You need to study your greek again
actrive means the the subject is doing- perfect means it is once for all and the participle makes the verb to have to end in "ed" or "ing" as come cannot be written comed it is then written properly in English as "to come" or "coming"

Not so! The active means: "performs the Action or is the State described by the Verb."

Look at what it is talking about: the first advent of the Lord!!!

1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


I agree that a "two fold " coming is unbiblical. You need to understand the rapture is not Jesus coming! Jesus second coming is described in REv. 19.

The rapture is its own event and not related to Jesus second coming! Him returning to the atmosphere is not a returning- for that requires HIm coming back to Earth which he does not at the Rapture.

He catches the church so that we can undergo the Bema judgment of 1 Cor. 3, then after the judgment the church is wedded to Jesus in heaven as declared in REv. 19. After this- the Second Coming takes place. That is reading Scripture as written and rightly dividing the Word of Truth. As for all these guys you mention, I could care less what they think or wrote.

This is one event. You have not shown us one single rapture passage that shows a tribulation period following. That is a Jesuit invention 200 years ago. I have asked you to put your money where your mouth is. Let us see!!! I'm not hold my breath.

Pretrib relates parousia passages (coming) to both their supposed rapture and others to their 3rd coming. Pretribs have Christ "coming" at the rapture and they have Him "coming" 7 yrs later at a 3rd Advent. That is 2 comings! They may sugar-coat it in traditional Pretrib theological jargon or adorn it in religious double-speak but when all is said and done they apply parousia (or coming) passages to both of these events. When coupled with Christ’s 1st Coming that makes 3 Comings of Christ in the Pretrib school of thought.

I agree! Because the rapture is not part of the second coming! It is an event that happens before the 70th week of Daniel commences. And it is not a secret snatch- the whole world will know that millions upon millions disappeared!

2 future comings are unknown to Scripture. The fact is: there is no biblical evidence of the Pretrib doctrine. It imputes Dispensational reasoning into passages where it doesn’t exist.

No it is not the end of the world. It is the start of the 1,000 year kingdom written extensively in the OT, confirmed in the New and given its length in the book of REvelation.

You have billions of half-goats half sheep that populate you new earth. If men are either saved or lost, born of the Spirit or stamped by the beast, who is this 3rd group you have invented that you refuse to identify that escape the wrath of God and inherit the new earth?

Well this is not the end of time. It is Jesus return, the killing of all the antichrists troops. (casting them into the place of torments or hell/sheol/hades), Then comes the cleansing and the sheep/goat judgment. Then the millenial kingdom! Then Satan released, one more gathering and then eterntiy will recommence! REv. 21 follows 20 which follows 19!

Revelation 19 is complete wholesale total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! Revelation 20 takes us right back to the First Advent.

The feasting part of the marriage supper of the Lamb is a symbolism depicted the destruction of the wicked. Why can this not be a symbolic depiction of the return of Christ and the events that accompany it (including the destruction of the wicked)?

The first part of the narrative outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that is to be focused upon the wicked on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

The whole thrust of this reading surrounds a climactic end to the world. Like the rest of Scripture, it records the complete rescue of the saints in the “marriage of the lamb” and the complete destruction of the wicked when the fowls consume the entire wicked left behind. The passage makes no allowance for goats-survivors in this great destruction passage or mortals squeezing into a supposed future millennium. This reading seems to fit in with the scriptural pattern of an all-consummating Coming - all the wicked being consumed.

The second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ will be a unique day in the annals of human history and unprecedented in its all-consummating character. Obviously, no other day has ever seen the end of the world and the final complete defeat of every last enemy of righteousness, truth and Almighty God. Neither has any other day seen the destruction of all wickedness by way of fire before. Notwithstanding, the Lord draws our specific attention to two notable days in human history to compare it with, and to fully illustrate the character and finality of this all-consummating day. These two particular days are familiar to most and are found in Holy Writ (both in the Old Testament), and give us an unparalleled insight into the nature, extent and detail of judgment on that impending last day. While, evidently there is no previous individual bygone historic example of a total global annihilation of the wicked by fire, these two individual days, when joined together, vividly portray what will occur on the final day of time. These two former days being (1) the day that Noah entered into the ark and (2) the day that Lot was rescued out of Sodom.
 
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nolidad

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but that acceptance did not start until Stephen was stoned correct?

so gentiles could only be saved without being Jews during mid acts

you also have issues with Ananias and sapphira death sentence if you take the grace dispensation beginning at acts 2

Wrong!

Once the disciples received the Holy Spirit! The only way one could be saved was by accepting the death burial and resurrection of Jesus for their sin! If a gentile converted to Judaism, he would then have to convert to Christianity!

And no I do not have any issue with Ananias ans Sepphira ! That was Peter meting out church authority as was given to the church in Matthew 18 : 15-20!

Stephen was stoned but that was not some event leading to the birth of the church which is the Body of Christ! If that were the case, then the thousands of Jews saved before Cornelius was saved are not members of the Body of Christ nor members of the church! If you think they were automatically transferred, you need to show biblical evidence that there was a difference in believers form Pentecost to cornelius!
 
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nolidad

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This can only refer to the wrath of God being poured out on Jerusalem that destroyed the existing socio-political/cultural/religious system of Judaism, which was an offence to God. This people were decimated. Their religious system was effectively brought to nought. Nothing before AD 70, or after it, could compare in regard to the extent of its demise. Luke 21:20-24 reinforces that we are looking at AD 70.

Yes Luke is a direct reference to 70 Ad Matthew and Luke are not! That is done by twisitng the plain words of Scripture to fit a preconceived idea instead of letting Scripture form your ideas!

The temple stopped existing- but the synagogues kept on and the socio-political system of Israel kept going till the bar-Kochba rebellion of 132-136 when Rome leveled Israel and renamed it syria palestina.

Once again you ignore the clear signs of the passages.

In matt and Mark it is the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, In Luke it is Jerusalem surrounded by armies!

A quick exegesis of Luke 21:

Luke 21:7-11 King James Version (KJV)
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

None of these happened before the destruction of Jerusalem!

Luke 21:12-24 King James Version (KJV)
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Now this is the events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem and all these things did come to pass!
I like the fact Jesus said Jerusalem would be trodden down--UNTIL the times of the gentiles is fulfilled. In ocntyext it can only mean that Israel would once again gain full control of Jerusalem. (almost complete today)

We all need to pay careful attention to the words of Scripture- they are our guides to understanding! God is the creator of grammar and will not violate grammar rules He created to allow for allegorical interpretations!

Next post an exegesis of Matthew 24!
 
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nolidad

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AN EXEGESIS OF MATTHEW 24:

Sovereign; you have declared that teh great tribulation of Matthew 24 is the destruction of the temple!

So let us look at this part of teh discourse and see why someone has misled you!

Matthew 24:21-30 King James Version (KJV)
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.



Let us assume you are correct and the great tribulation is referring ot the destruction of the temple.

JESUS Himself said that IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation of those days:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory


31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

So when did these things immediately happen after Rome ransacked and destroyed the temple?????????????

When did the sun darken, when did the moon not give her light. When were the stars shaken. When did the sign of the son of man appear in heaven. What proof do you have that ALL the tribes of the earth mourn. You are implying that Jesus has already returned to earth?

When did the angels gather the elect from the globe!!!

Remember these are things that happen IMMEDIATELY after the desgtruction of Jerusalem according to you!

IMMEDIATELY

εὐθέως
Transliteration
eutheōs
Pronunciation
yü-the'-ōs εὐθύς (G2117)
Greek Inflections of εὐθέως Εὐθέως — 2x
εὐθὲως — 34x
εὐθέως — 42x
εὐθεὼς — 2x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: immediately (35x), straightway (32x), forthwith (7x), miscellaneous (6x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. straightway, immediately, forthwith
It is the language of Scripture itself that shows us that Most of Matthew 24 does not refer to the 70 AD destruction.



 
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sovereigngrace

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Yes Luke is a direct reference to 70 Ad Matthew and Luke are not! That is done by twisitng the plain words of Scripture to fit a preconceived idea instead of letting Scripture form your ideas!

The temple stopped existing- but the synagogues kept on and the socio-political system of Israel kept going till the bar-Kochba rebellion of 132-136 when Rome leveled Israel and renamed it syria palestina.

Once again you ignore the clear signs of the passages.

In matt and Mark it is the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, In Luke it is Jerusalem surrounded by armies!

A quick exegesis of Luke 21:

Luke 21:7-11 King James Version (KJV)
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

None of these happened before the destruction of Jerusalem!

Luke 21:12-24 King James Version (KJV)
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Now this is the events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem and all these things did come to pass!
I like the fact Jesus said Jerusalem would be trodden down--UNTIL the times of the gentiles is fulfilled. In ocntyext it can only mean that Israel would once again gain full control of Jerusalem. (almost complete today)

We all need to pay careful attention to the words of Scripture- they are our guides to understanding! God is the creator of grammar and will not violate grammar rules He created to allow for allegorical interpretations!

Next post an exegesis of Matthew 24!

I have showed you the clear and compelling parallel between the 3 gospel accounts (Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20 and Luke 21:20-24) that forbids your argument. Please re-read #44. You are fighting with the inspired text!

My still thesis stands unchallenged!
 
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sovereigngrace

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AN EXEGESIS OF MATTHEW 24:

Sovereign; you have declared that teh great tribulation of Matthew 24 is the destruction of the temple!

So let us look at this part of teh discourse and see why someone has misled you!

Matthew 24:21-30 King James Version (KJV)
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.



Let us assume you are correct and the great tribulation is referring ot the destruction of the temple.

JESUS Himself said that IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation of those days:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory


31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

So when did these things immediately happen after Rome ransacked and destroyed the temple?????????????

When did the sun darken, when did the moon not give her light. When were the stars shaken. When did the sign of the son of man appear in heaven. What proof do you have that ALL the tribes of the earth mourn. You are implying that Jesus has already returned to earth?

When did the angels gather the elect from the globe!!!

Remember these are things that happen IMMEDIATELY after the desgtruction of Jerusalem according to you!

IMMEDIATELY

εὐθέως
Transliteration
eutheōs
Pronunciation
yü-the'-ōs εὐθύς (G2117)
Greek Inflections of εὐθέως Εὐθέως — 2x
εὐθὲως — 34x
εὐθέως — 42x
εὐθεὼς — 2x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: immediately (35x), straightway (32x), forthwith (7x), miscellaneous (6x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. straightway, immediately, forthwith
It is the language of Scripture itself that shows us that Most of Matthew 24 does not refer to the 70 AD destruction.

There are two tribulations in Matthew 24, one relating to AD70 and one preceding the Coming of Christ. They are different in the nature, origin and their focus. There is the great tribulation of God upon Israel in AD70, and the tribulation of Satan upon the righteous at the end.
 
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nolidad

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I have showed you the clear and compelling parallel between the 3 gospel accounts (Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20 and Luke 21:20-24) that forbids your argument. Please re-read #44. You are fighting with the inspired text!

My still thesis stands unchallenged!

No. I am not fighting with the Word of God- but a reinterpretation of it that you have latched onto by someone in days gone by.

There is parallel accounts in the synoptic gospels, but also much differing accounts as well. The fact that you reuse to acknowledge them and just allegorize them away is very troubling.

There are two tribulations in Matthew 24, one relating to AD70 and one preceding the Coming of Christ. They are different in the nature, origin and their focus. There is the great tribulation of God upon Israel in AD70, and the tribulation of Satan upon the righteous at the end.

How convenient to have two tribulations now! The judgment of Israel is never called tribulation except by those who are sloppy readers of the word!

But let us compare the differences in the Matthew and Luke account. (well some of them)

Mt.:
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

global hatred and persecution.

Luke:
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

Luke describes Jewish hatred not a global hatred!

Matthew:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened

the sign? The abomination of desolation standing in the holy place (the holy of holies)
This tribulation is not just related to Israel but from the creation!

The similarity? They are to flee upon seeing this sign and the fleeing is similar- but the results are different!

Luke:
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Different warning sign. Jerusalem compassed by armies NOT THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION STANDING IN THE HOLY OF HOLIES.

These are called days of vengeance against Israel. and it limits its time till the times of the gentiles are ended!

Luke has happened- Matthew has not! Because IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation of those days that you allege is the 70 AD destruction- the sun darkens, the moon don't shine, the stars are shaken and the world sees the Son of Man coming! Also the world mourns!

You would have us believe that in mid context God bounces back and forth between the last days and the destruction of Jerusalem! But seeing how God is the God of grammar- if you just follow the rules of grammar- it becomes clear God is speaking of two different events between matt. 24 and Luke 21.

I will take the plain straightforward reading of teh Word of God instead of some game of twister reinterpretation to fit someones agenda!
 
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sovereigngrace

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No. I am not fighting with the Word of God- but a reinterpretation of it that you have latched onto by someone in days gone by.

There is parallel accounts in the synoptic gospels, but also much differing accounts as well. The fact that you reuse to acknowledge them and just allegorize them away is very troubling.



How convenient to have two tribulations now! The judgment of Israel is never called tribulation except by those who are sloppy readers of the word!

But let us compare the differences in the Matthew and Luke account. (well some of them)

Mt.:
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

global hatred and persecution.

Luke:
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

Luke describes Jewish hatred not a global hatred!

Matthew:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened

the sign? The abomination of desolation standing in the holy place (the holy of holies)
This tribulation is not just related to Israel but from the creation!

The similarity? They are to flee upon seeing this sign and the fleeing is similar- but the results are different!

Luke:
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Different warning sign. Jerusalem compassed by armies NOT THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION STANDING IN THE HOLY OF HOLIES.

These are called days of vengeance against Israel. and it limits its time till the times of the gentiles are ended!

Luke has happened- Matthew has not! Because IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation of those days that you allege is the 70 AD destruction- the sun darkens, the moon don't shine, the stars are shaken and the world sees the Son of Man coming! Also the world mourns!

You would have us believe that in mid context God bounces back and forth between the last days and the destruction of Jerusalem! But seeing how God is the God of grammar- if you just follow the rules of grammar- it becomes clear God is speaking of two different events between matt. 24 and Luke 21.

I will take the plain straightforward reading of teh Word of God instead of some game of twister reinterpretation to fit someones agenda!

Please read this slowly, and you will see what I am getting at:

Matthew 24:3 records:

1. When shall these things be?”
2. What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

Mark 13:4 records:

1. When shall these things be?”
2. What shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled (finished or ended)?

Luke 21:7 records:

1. When shall these things be?”
2. What sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?”

Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the second coming.

In His response to the first question in Matthew 24:15-22, He spoke of the end of the 40 year probationary period (AD 70), saying, When ye (the disciples) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

Mark 13:14-20 says, when ye (the disciples) shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.”

Luke’s parallel passage, in Luke 21:20-24, records, when ye (the disciples) shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! For there shall be great distress (anagke) in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

A comparison of these three accounts will see the correlation in teaching. Plainly: the abomination of desolation … standing where it ought not” or standing “in the holy place” relates to the Roman soldiers that would destroy the city of Jerusalem. Luke adds meat to the bones, saying: “when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.” Here is the warning sign to run! There is also the limitation of that judgment so that the Gospel would spread to the nations. The Gospel spread as Jewish families were spread throughout the world.
 
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Guojing

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Wrong!

Once the disciples received the Holy Spirit! The only way one could be saved was by accepting the death burial and resurrection of Jesus for their sin! If a gentile converted to Judaism, he would then have to convert to Christianity!

And no I do not have any issue with Ananias ans Sepphira ! That was Peter meting out church authority as was given to the church in Matthew 18 : 15-20!

Peter did not preach 1 Cor 15:1-4 in any of his sermons from Acts 2-10. Read the Bible properly.

The point under the grace dispensation was that a Gentile can be a Christian without circumcision. That did not begin until Cornelius.

For your final point, so you believe, under grace, a believer can be killed by God for lying?
 
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