Good without "God", or secular morality isn't dependent on spirituality

Halbhh · Jan 2, 2020

muichimotsu said:
And that's the rub I'd see, it shouldn't be a byproduct, it should be something that plays into edification as a whole rather than resulting contingently from being in some special status.

Here an assumption is being used, but it's an incorrect assumption. What you'd ideally like to do: try to find your own incorrect assumptions you are using (often accidentally), so that you can get free of those, for your own gain.

Trying to put it to words that can communicate it could be hard to do(!), so it wouldn't normally be possible in an antagonistic debate. Instead, you'd have to have a true desire to examine it neutrally, and be eager to find new aspects or pieces, instead of defending a position, see. That's what I was trying to convey above.

If I merely correct the mistaken assumption or bring the needed idea to bear, it won't be hearable if you feel this is a contest I think. It's like....how to understand a physics idea like special relativity for instance, it's not useful to insist it's wrong about time dilation for instance: that 2 twins separated where one travels near the speed of light in a ship for a while can't age a different rates, etc. If one is merely debating, that handicaps their ability to learn. Ideally, one wants to really learn the theory, and then test it.

Jezabella · Jan 2, 2020

Halbhh said:
I'm glad you asked. It's a very fundamental question.

Death of this body is merely "sleep" (when God exists).

This isn't a theory, but the plain wording from the same source -- the scriptures -- where you have your question from:

The same source that causes your question says that death is merely a transitional state of being.

Here's an instance from the one who knows the most:

41 Then a man named Jairus, a synagogue leader, came and fell at Jesus’ feet, pleading with him to come to his house 42 because his only daughter, a girl of about twelve, was dying.

As Jesus was on his way, the crowds almost crushed him. 43 And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years, c but no one could heal her. 44 She came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak, and immediately her bleeding stopped.

45 “Who touched me?” Jesus asked.

When they all denied it, Peter said, “Master, the people are crowding and pressing against you.”

46But Jesus said, “Someone touched me; I know that power has gone out from me.”

47 Then the woman, seeing that she could not go unnoticed, came trembling and fell at his feet. In the presence of all the people, she told why she had touched him and how she had been instantly healed. 48 Then he said to her, “Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace.”

49 While Jesus was still speaking, someone came from the house of Jairus, the synagogue leader. “Your daughter is dead,” he said. “Don’t bother the teacher anymore.”

50 Hearing this, Jesus said to Jairus, “Don’t be afraid; just believe, and she will be healed.”

51 When he arrived at the house of Jairus, he did not let anyone go in with him except Peter, John and James, and the child’s father and mother. 52 Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. “Stop wailing,” Jesus said. “She is not dead but asleep.”

53 They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. 54 But he took her by the hand and said, “My child, get up!” 55 Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up. Then Jesus told them to give her something to eat.

Luke 8 NIV

I am not interested in reading anything from the Bible that, in your mind, justifies mass murder.

Until you can explain why your god would kill innocent children en masse, and also instruct parents to kill the imperfect children god himself created, please ... you are nothing more than an apologist for murder.... which is why people with gods are dangerous.

Halbhh · Jan 2, 2020

Jezabella said:
I am not interested in reading anything from the Bible that, in your mind, justifies mass murder.

Until you can explain why your god would kill innocent children en masse, and also instruct parents to kill the imperfect children god himself created, please ... you are nothing more than an apologist for murder.... which is why people with gods are dangerous.

Instead of justifying any murder, the Bible specifically names murder as a primary major sin, to never be done.

"Murder" by definition is an action humans do to humans --
noun

the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

God is the one who makes all death of all bodies here only "sleep" though.

All will awaken. He will awaken them.

But, if you think death of these temporary bodies we are in is the final death, you are only assuming God doesn't exist.

Often people at first fall into a circular reasoning on this:
e.g. --
"God allowed children to die...therefore God would have to be evil, but the Bible claims He is good, ergo: it must be wrong, therefore God definitely doesn't exist" (circular reasoning -- assuming death is final is precisely assuming God doesn't exist in the first place.)

Jezabella · Jan 2, 2020

Halbhh said:
Instead of justifying any murder, the Bible specifically names murder as a primary major sin, to never be done.

"Murder" by definition is an action humans do to humans --
noun

the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

God is the one who makes all death of all bodies here only "sleep" though.

All will awaken. He will awaken them.

But, if you think death of these temporary bodies we are in is the final death, you are only assuming God doesn't exist.

Often people at first fall into a circular reasoning on this:
e.g. --
"God allowed children to die...therefore God would have to be evil, but the Bible claims He is good, ergo: it must be wrong, therefore God definitely doesn't exist" (circular reasoning -- assuming death is final is precisely assuming God doesn't exist in the first place.)

LOL hilarious ... here you are justifying the murder and torture of children using the dictionary to define murder, as if anyone competent in English doesn't know what murder means.

You worship a mass murderer. That makes your values questionable.

GW Bush used the Bible to justify murdering innocent civilians, including children, in Iraq.

So much for your god and his evil followers.

muichimotsu · Jan 2, 2020

Halbhh said:
It's entirely unclear what you mean to ask.

Perhaps if you give a very specific example, it would be possible to discuss?

(worst case is if the unclear question is meant to suggest some bad thing that is entirely unreal...

...But, just in case, do you have an actual real example to consider?)

Why is the answer to supposed injustice to an eternal being eternal in nature when the eternal being would reasonably not be affected nearly as much as we infer? Also, eternal anything has problems in that it never ends, so it doesn't have real satisfaction in terms of moral principles.

Humanity's sins requiring a sacrifice of some "god" entity like Jesus seems also disproportional, since the sacrifice isn't permanent in nature and also seems contradictory in the entity being identical in essence to the entity it's sacrificed to.

Religious morality related to a supernatural entity creates unrealistic standards and morally bankrupt principles of reconciliation of supposed insults to a deity

muichimotsu · Jan 2, 2020

Halbhh said:
Often people at first fall into a circular reasoning on this:
e.g. --
"God allowed children to die...therefore God would have to be evil, but the Bible claims He is good, ergo: it must be wrong, therefore God definitely doesn't exist" (circular reasoning -- assuming death is final is precisely assuming God doesn't exist in the first place.)

You really think you need a god for an afterlife to exist? The idea of an afterlife is separate, not intertwined by necessity, with a deity's existence or nonexistence

Halbhh · Jan 2, 2020

Jezabella said:
LOL hilarious ... here you are justifying the murder and torture of children using the dictionary to define murder, as if anyone competent in English doesn't know what murder means.

You worship a mass murderer. That makes your values questionable.

GW Bush used the Bible to justify murdering innocent civilians, including children, in Iraq.

So much for your god and his evil followers.

While you will be of course buying into some false versions of some things no doubt (akin to how some have bought/believed Trump's suggesting many Mexicans immigrants are just bad people, etc. -- getting tricked by rhetoric), it's understandable you'd make that mistake...it's popular. Like how many believe bad things about Mexicans from Trump. Popular and mistaken.

But you do have one feeling right though.

Any person, president or janitor, preacher or atheist -- no matter who, no matter what they claim (such as claiming to be Christian for instance) -- anyone who does injustice and doesn't repent of that injustice will answer for it:

Romans 2:6 God "will repay each one according to his deeds."

If they confess/repent, they get forgiven. If they don't confess/repent, they do not get forgiven past the level for which they truly have forgiven others (and most haven't suffered such major harms themselves (to forgive), so they very much need to confess their own major wrongs.).

muichimotsu · Jan 2, 2020

Halbhh said:
Here an assumption is being used, but it's an incorrect assumption. What you'd ideally like to do: try to find your own incorrect assumptions you are using (often accidentally), so that you can get free of those, for your own gain.

Trying to put it to words that can communicate it could be hard to do(!), so it wouldn't normally be possible in an antagonistic debate. Instead, you'd have to have a true desire to examine it neutrally, and be eager to find new aspects or pieces, instead of defending a position, see. That's what I was trying to convey above.

If I merely correct the mistaken assumption or bring the needed idea to bear, it won't be hearable if you feel this is a contest I think. It's like....how to understand a physics idea like special relativity for instance, it's not useful to insist it's wrong about time dilation for instance: that 2 twins separated where one travels near the speed of light in a ship for a while can't age a different rates, etc. If one is merely debating, that handicaps their ability to learn. Ideally, one wants to really learn the theory, and then test it.

Why should I be free of a standard that is self correcting in it nature? Skepticism is hardly the problem in regards to claims that are unsubstantiated beyond sentiment and supposed divine revelation justified by faulty philosophy.

I never used the word debate, I said dialectic. Never regarded this as a contest, that's petty

I've learned and continue to learn about Christianity, and it continues to be found wanting in terms of expectations I'd hardly call unreasonable, and people only do when it comes to their favored beliefs, it seems (God and the afterlife in particular)

Jezabella · Jan 2, 2020

Halbhh said:
While you will be of course buying into some false versions of some things no doubt (akin to how some have bought/believed Trump's suggesting many Mexicans immigrants are just bad people, etc. -- getting tricked by rhetoric), it's understandable you'd make that mistake...it's popular. Like how many believe bad things about Mexicans from Trump. Popular and mistaken.

But you do have one feeling right though.

Any person, president or janitor, preacher or atheist -- no matter who, no matter what they claim (such as claiming to be Christian for instance) -- anyone who does injustice and doesn't repent of that injustice will answer for it:

Romans 2:6 God "will repay each one according to his deeds."

If they confess/repent, they get forgiven. If they don't confess/repent, they do not get forgiven past the level for which they truly have forgiven others (and most haven't suffered such major harms themselves (to forgive), so they very much need to confess their own major wrongs.).

FALSE? Did you say the contents of the Bible are false because that is what I am getting my information from.

Your god committed genocide, wipes out humanity and then used INCEST from 8 members of the same family to repopulate the earth ... yes .. very unscientific to use the same contaminated DNA to breed from.

Then when that didn't work, your god decided using his son as human sacrifice in order to forgive humanity for being the flawed bunch of people he created them to be.

How does that make any sense, let alone your justification for it.

Halbhh · Jan 2, 2020

Jezabella said:
FALSE? Did you say the contents of the Bible are false because that is what I am getting my information from.

Your god committed genocide, wipes out humanity and then used INCEST from 8 members of the same family to repopulate the earth ... yes .. very unscientific to use the same contaminated DNA to breed from.

Then when that didn't work, your god decided using his son as human sacrifice in order to forgive humanity for being the flawed bunch of people he created them to be.

How does that make any sense, let alone your justification for it.

'Genocide' requires it's humans doing it, because God is the One who causes death of these bodies to be undone.

To assert God does genocide as if that death is final is to be only unaware of the content of the scriptures the discussion is about.

(just for reference, I'm speaking from having read fully through all of them, meaning not just passages here and there, but 100%)

Halbhh · Jan 3, 2020

Jezabella said:
FALSE? Did you say the contents of the Bible are false because that is what I am getting my information from.

Your god committed genocide, wipes out humanity and then used INCEST from 8 members of the same family to repopulate the earth ... yes .. very unscientific to use the same contaminated DNA to breed from.

Then when that didn't work, your god decided using his son as human sacrifice in order to forgive humanity for being the flawed bunch of people he created them to be.

How does that make any sense, let alone your justification for it.

Sometimes a metaphor can help.

==========
Imagine a building with terrorists holding hostages and torturing them.

Say, a lot of children hostage. Innocents.

Imagine a Police Officer (very able) arrives and sends a gas into the building, and everyone falls down, as if dead.

Dead looking.

And then He carries all the bodies to a large Police Station.

There, He gives an injection to each one, and they all wake up.

Not dead after all.

The terrorists are separated from the people they were torturing.

Next, He frees all the innocent victims to continue living life in freedom (let's call it the Afterlife).

------
this is a simplified broad version of many events in the bible. The knockout gas the Office applied to everyone is similar to the Flood Story.

We learn in fact that the Flood story leads later in time....or in the infinite...to this moment:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. ...
1 Peter 3 NIV

There you have it --
The Gospel of Salvation delivered to all those that died in the Flood. Thought by many to be an illustrative instance to represent all people that have died without hearing the accurate real gospel, that they might hear, and some might turn and then be saved.

Jezabella · Jan 3, 2020

Halbhh said:
Sometimes a metaphor can help.

==========
Imagine a building with terrorists holding hostages and torturing them.

Say, a lot of children hostage. Innocents.

Imagine a Police Officer (very able) arrives and sends a gas into the building, and everyone falls down, as if dead.

Dead looking.

And then He carries all the bodies to a large Police Station.

There, He gives an injection to each one, and they all wake up.

Not dead after all.

The terrorists are separated from the people they were torturing.

Next, He frees all the innocent victims to continue living life in freedom (let's call it the Afterlife).

------
this is a simplified broad version of many events in the bible. The knockout gas the Office applied to everyone is similar to the Flood Story.

We learn in fact that the Flood story leads later in time....or in the infinite...to this moment:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. ...
1 Peter 3 NIV

There you have it --
The Gospel of Salvation delivered to all those that died in the Flood. Thought by many to be an illustrative instance to represent all people that have died without hearing the accurate real gospel, that they might hear, and some might turn and then be saved.

Sorry, you can whitewash mass murder all you like, and non-thinking believers will embrace you blindly for it because you are telling them what they want to hear.

Unfortunately, you cannot fool thinking atheists with your lame excuses for murder.

Fancy torturing children.

Same god watches while his representatives on earth raped children in his holy house on earth.

Sorry, he created predators who targeted children. And please don't insult the intelligence of atheists by saying god can't interfere with free will.

Responsible parents interfere with the free will of their children ALL THE TIME for the purpose of protecting them. You do not give a 2 year old the free will to cross a highway by himself.

Your flawed logic does nothing but to prove how you are unable to accept the inconvenient truth.

Jezabella · Jan 3, 2020

Halbhh said:
'Genocide' requires it's humans doing it, because God is the One who causes death of these bodies to be undone.

To assert God does genocide as if that death is final is to be only unaware of the content of the scriptures the discussion is about.

(just for reference, I'm speaking from having read fully through all of them, meaning not just passages here and there, but 100%)

Your god committed genocide of humanity when he sent a global flood.

Please stop with your dishonesty.

Halbhh · Jan 3, 2020

Jezabella said:
Same god watches while his representatives on earth raped children in his holy house on earth.

Each who did such huge wrongs and don't utterly confess and utterly die to their old self in a total way, complete death of the old self will face this reality:

Romans 2:6 God "will repay each one according to his deeds."

Which is just as frightening to imagine as it seems:

Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

They are in far greater danger than you are.

Jezabella · Jan 3, 2020

Halbhh said:
Sometimes a metaphor can help.

==========
Imagine a building with terrorists holding hostages and torturing them.

Say, a lot of children hostage. Innocents.

Imagine a Police Officer (very able) arrives and sends a gas into the building, and everyone falls down, as if dead.

Dead looking.

And then He carries all the bodies to a large Police Station.

There, He gives an injection to each one, and they all wake up.

Not dead after all.

The terrorists are separated from the people they were torturing.

Next, He frees all the innocent victims to continue living life in freedom (let's call it the Afterlife).

------
this is a simplified broad version of many events in the bible. The knockout gas the Office applied to everyone is similar to the Flood Story.

We learn in fact that the Flood story leads later in time....or in the infinite...to this moment:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. ...
1 Peter 3 NIV

There you have it --
The Gospel of Salvation delivered to all those that died in the Flood. Thought by many to be an illustrative instance to represent all people that have died without hearing the accurate real gospel, that they might hear, and some might turn and then be saved.

…

And here is your god, condoning the murder of
children and condoning pedophilia of little girls.

Numbers 31: 18
17So now, kill all the boys, as well as every woman who has had relations with a man, 18 but spare for yourselves every girl who has never had relations with a man.

Jezabella · Jan 3, 2020

Halbhh said:
Each who did such huge wrongs and don't utterly confess and utterly die to their old self in a total way, complete death of the old self will face this reality:

Romans 2:6 God "will repay each one according to his deeds."

Which is just as frightening to imagine as it seems:

Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

They are in far greater danger than you are.

I am not concerned about my safety. I am not a child.

However, I do not tolerate child abuse and torture under any circumstance. I just do not understand how you can be an apologist for child abuse.

Halbhh · Jan 3, 2020

Jezabella said:
I am not concerned about my safety. I am not a child.

However, I do not tolerate child abuse and torture under any circumstance. I just do not understand how you can be an apologist for child abuse.

To mention the reality of hell they endangered themselves into (did you even read my short post?) .... you may have a different idea of what 'apology' means than I do possibly.

Jezabella · Jan 3, 2020

Halbhh said:
To mention the reality of hell they endangered themselves into (did you even read my short post?) .... you may have a different idea of what 'apology' means than I do possibly.

There is no point in reading posts that are desperately making excuses for the murder and sexual abuse of children.

Halbhh · Jan 3, 2020

Jezabella said:
…

And here is your god, condoning the murder of
children and condoning pedophilia of little girls.

Numbers 31: 18
17So now, kill all the boys, as well as every woman who has had relations with a man, 18 but spare for yourselves every girl who has never had relations with a man.

Every last man, 100%, of the Israelites that in any manner abused any of those young women, will pay the price, the fearsome, awful, frightening price, unless that man utterly repented in a real way that is just like dying, it's so total.

What price? This one:

Romans 2:6 God "will repay each one according to his deeds."

Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Halbhh · Jan 3, 2020

God is the One Who undoes death of these bodies, and then:

Romans 2:6 God "will repay each one according to his deeds."

for everyone.

It's frightening, really.

But He made a way for you to be forgiven.

It's not only that frightening perfect Justice that all will face, only, but there is a chance at Mercy that is truly amazing, an truly amazing Grace, for any who would repent and turn to Christ in faith, and rely on Him for their salvation. So that we are truly born anew. When it's real, we die to our old self, and follow Him, doing as He said.

Good without "God", or secular morality isn't dependent on spirituality

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