Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

keras · Jan 2, 2020

Douggg said:
Israel and Judah in that passage is referring to the two parts of the divided kingdom. The northern ten tribes - called Israel. And the southern two tribes - called Judah.

But both those groups make up the whole Christian peoples.
Those who rebel and reject Jesus will die in the desert. Ezekiel 20:32-38

What you and most don't seem to have caught onto; is the change of who are the people of God. No longer is Israel and Judah just people who like to call themselves by those names. The true Israelites of God and the true Jews are found in Galatians 3:26-29 and in Romans 2:29.
So that is who all the unfulfilled prophesies of the OT about Israel, such as in Jeremiah 50:4-5 apply to.

People who want to maintain a separation between those ancient entities and the Christians today, are the ones who are guilty of Replacement Theology.

mkgal1 · Jan 2, 2020

keras said:
People who want to maintain a separation between those ancient entities and the Christians today, are the ones who are guilty of Replacement Theology.

This can't be overstated. :preach:

thomas_t · Jan 3, 2020

mkgal1 said:
how can we even have a complete faith ourselves?

I have zero gratitude in my heart towards them and I don't want you to tell me I'm not a real Christian with a "compete faith".

mkgal1 said:
What your statement displays is an attitude of scarcity

yes, my resources are scarce. Such as time recources. That's a common occurance on earth.

mkgal1 said:
thomas_t said:

Want to venerate the saints? Venerate God instead.

Click to expand...

I don't see why we have to sacrifice one for the other?

I now edited out the sentence you've quoted. Feel free to venerate whom you want. But I venerate God alone.

mkgal1 said:
I just don't understand how so much can be excluded and discounted.

I don't exclude and discount anything biblical, be sure. I don't edit out anything of the Bible, I acknowledge any scripture as truth. As I've said so often.
Thomas

BTW I'm not guilty of any replacement theology, as you may have suggested again. Israel is Israel. The Christians is the Christians. There is no replacement. "Israel of God" is another expression that exists only once in the Bible, we had that.

thomas_t · Jan 3, 2020

jgr said:
Hi thomas_t,

Jesus paid the debt of our sin.

That's certainly not the debt I'm referring to.

Ah that's not the debt you're referring to? Jesus came to the earth to solve this debt, in my opinion. Prove by scripture that there is other debt to pay besides this one. Otherwise I'd consider myself as debt free!

jgr said:
We do not worship them.

very good!

jgr said:
[the forefathers] have gone before to bring us the spiritual heritage and freedoms of which we are beneficiaries today

So let's have a look again at who really brought us the "spiritual heritage and freedoms of which we are beneficiaries today", as you say.
It was God who brought Jesus, the savior.... see Luke 20:13.

Thomas

mkgal1 · Jan 3, 2020

thomas_t said:
yes, my resources are scarce. Such as time recources. That's a common occurance on earth.

Love doesn't work like our limited time. As I've posted already, love is a paradox - the more we give away, the more we have. There's no need to be stingy and selective - we're instructed to love even our enemies - so certainly we're to honor/love all that are in God's family/Abraham's family.

Ironic, though, you've been oddly concerned about the honor of those in geopolitical modern Israel? You've mentioned we're "disrespecting" them when we say they aren't the same Israelites the Bible is written about. That's been your refrain throughout this thread. In your zeal to avoid venerating the saints (honoring them) you seem to have turned your veneration (honor) to modern-day geopolitical Israel in order to "protect their identity" or to "protect their name".

thomas_t said:
I now edited out the sentence you've quoted. Feel free to venerate whom you want. But I venerate God alone.

Actually, you don't. As pointed out above - you "venerate" modern-day geopolitical Israel. "Venerate" simply means "regard with great respect". You've repeatedly rebuked those of us for "disrespecting" modern-day Israel when we point out they're not biblical Israelites. I see that as venerating them - protecting their honor (even though I doubt the people you're defending even care as much as you do about this).

thomas_t said:
I don't exclude and discount anything biblical, be sure. I don't edit out anything of the Bible, I acknowledge any scripture as truth. As I've said so often.
Thomas

It seems to me you've edited out all the faithful biblical Israelites - maybe even especially King David. You've posted a few times that there's "no faithful remnant called 'Israel'" but what about King David? I think it's "disrespectful" (going by your standard) of you to not call/recognize David as "biblical Israel".

Quoting the Bible Project: This story of David’s humble origins came to epitomize the ideal king. A ruler who wasn’t exalted over Israel by human expectations or standards. Rather, he was elevated by God’s own grace and surprising creativity.

We see David’s true character shine. He trusts the God of Israel so implicitly that having to flee his wife, his home, or his city doesn’t shake his faith in God’s providence. David has more than one opportunity to kill Saul (the fascinating “cave” stories in 1 Sam 24 and 26)
and he doesn’t! He trusts that “God will be the judge between you and me, and he will plead my case and deliver me!” (1 Sam 24:15)

Time and again, we see David play the role of the humble servant of God - King David's Lineage | The Bible Project

thomas_t said:
I don't exclude and discount anything biblical, be sure. I don't edit out anything of the Bible, I acknowledge any scripture as truth. As I've said so often.
Thomas

BTW I'm not guilty of any replacement theology, as you may have suggested again. Israel is Israel. The Christians is the Christians. There is no replacement. "Israel of God" is another expression that exists only once in the Bible, we had that.

See above. The Bible story is about ancient Judaism (Israelites). "Christianity" is a modern term (although it was recorded in Acts that in Antioch - IIRC - it was sometimes used as a derogatory name). That's replacing people, renaming them, stripping them of their identity.

thomas_t said:
So let's have a look again at who really brought us the "spiritual heritage and freedoms of which we are beneficiaries today", as you say.
It was God who brought Jesus, the savior.... see Luke 20:13.

Luke 20:13 isn't about Jesus' birth. You say you aren't editing anyone out? This is an excellent example of you attempting to disregard Mary's faithful participation in the gestation, birth, and raising of Jesus. That's beyond "disrespectful".

thomas_t · Jan 3, 2020

mkgal1 said:
There's no need to be stingy

I'm not stingy. Can you leave out ad hominem attacks?

mkgal1 said:
so certainly we're to honor/love all that are in God's family/Abraham's family.

as I said: I have zero gratitude for them.
But I don't have any zeal to avoid venerating them either, as you suggest.

mkgal1 said:
Ironic, though, you've been oddly concerned about the honor of those in geopolitical modern Israel?

You got me wrong (bolded part). I want that in this Christian forums people won't attack them in their identity as being Jews by insinuating they are no longer true Jews.

mkgal1 said:
It seems to me you've edited out all the faithful biblical Israelites - maybe even especially King David. You've posted a few times that there's "no faithful remnant called 'Israel'" but what about King David? I think it's "disrespectful" (going by your standard) of you to not call/recognize David as "biblical Israel".

David belongs to biblical Israel. He was faithful - I have always admitted that. I didn't edit him out. I wasn't direspectful against him, as you suggest. If you think you can now make the same reproach again and again, as you did before... please refrain from doing so. So here for you again: David belongs to Israel. Recognized by Thomas T.
Don't even think about putting words in my mouth that I supposedly claimed otherwise. I just don't want to go round in circles with you this time, please.

mkgal1 said:
See above. The Bible story is about ancient Judaism (Israelites). "Christianity" is a modern term (although it was recorded in Acts that in Antioch - IIRC - it was sometimes used as a derogatory name). That's replacing people, renaming them, stripping them of their identity.

Nope. Israel was never called Christianity. And the Christian church has never been called Israel in the Bible.
I don't replace, rename anyone or resort to stripping anyone off their identity. By the way, @keras also uses the name "Christians".

mkgal1 said:
Luke 20:13 isn't about Jesus' birth. You say you aren't editing anyone out? This is an excellent example of you attempting to disregard Mary's faithful participation in the gestation, birth, and raising of Jesus. That's beyond "disrespectful".

no, this is not disrepectful. It isn't "beyond disrepectful", either. I am entitled to post Bible verses in this forum, even those verses that do not mention Mary. Quoting a Bible verse that does not contain Mary is not the same as editing her out. It's just a matter of fact that not every Bible verse about Jesus happens to be about her, too.

Your post has been full of false accusations. Please stop it.

jgr · Jan 3, 2020

thomas_t said:
I'm not stingy. Can you leave out ad hominem attacks?

as I said: I have zero gratitude for them.
But I don't have any zeal to avoid venerating them either, as you suggest.

You got me wrong (bolded part). I want that in this Christian forums people won't attack them in their identity as being Jews by insinuating they are no longer true Jews.

David belongs to biblical Israel. He was faithful - I have always admitted that. I didn't edit him out. I wasn't direspectful against him, as you suggest. If you think you can now make the same reproach again and again, as you did before... please refrain from doing so. So here for you again: David belongs to Israel. Recognized by Thomas T.
Don't even think about putting words in my mouth that I supposedly claimed otherwise. I just don't want to go round in circles with you this time, please.

Nope. Israel was never called Christianity. And the Christian church has never been called Israel in the Bible.
I don't replace, rename anyone or resort to stripping anyone off their identity. By the way, @keras also uses the name "Christians".

no, this is not disrepectful. It isn't "beyond disrepectful", either. I am entitled to post Bible verses in this forum, even those verses that do not mention Mary. Quoting a Bible verse that does not contain Mary is not the same as editing her out. It's just a matter of fact that not every Bible verse about Jesus happens to be about her, too.

Your post has been full of false accusations. Please stop it.

Mkgal1 has struck the proverbial nail on the head with absolute accuracy.

Apostate Israel is the object of your veneration.

Since its beginnings, dispensationalism has incessantly and loudly proclaimed that it is Israel that is the fulfillment and heir of a vast array of God's promises and bequests. One need only read and hear a small fraction of dispensationalism's prodigious prophetic output to recognize that Israel is the chief cornerstone in the foundation of the dispensational prophetic edifice.

Consequently, not even Christ Himself is permitted to replace Israel as the anointed recipient of that which dispensationalism claims it is entitled to. In any and every instance whenever it appears that Israel's entitlements are being questioned, charges such as “calling God a liar”, “anti-Semitic”, "evil", "heretical", and various other epithets are directed at the perceived offender. It is the equivalent of identity politics within the church of God. Thus Christ is denied His own entire, rightful, and exclusive entitlements as Fulfillment and Heir of all of God's promises and bequests.

The reason is self-evident. Israel's removal as the anointed recipient is the equivalent of the removal of dispensationalism's chief cornerstone, and the consequent and unavoidable collapse of the edifice which it supports. The result is effectively dispensational detonation, and the disappearance of a pervasive, not to mention lucrative, presence and influence within the Church.

But Scripture is unequivocal in its declarations, notwithstanding the denials directed at it.

Revelation 19:10
“...the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy”

Israel does not substitute for Jesus.

Jesus declares Himself to be the Fulfillment of all things concerning Himself.

Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Other Scriptures confirm His declaration, and further declare Him as Heir of all things.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

There is no substitute for “all”.

In summation of which, Scripture declares:
Colossians 3:11
“...Christ is all, and in all”

Notice that Israel is conspicuous by its absence in the foregoing declarations.

The reason: It's not about Israel at all.

It's all about Him.

thomas_t · Jan 4, 2020

Good morning jgr,

jgr said:
Mkgal1 has struck the proverbial nail on the head with absolute accuracy.

Apostate Israel is the object of your veneration.

I am Israel friendly but I don't venerate Israel.
I never said Israel substitutes for Jesus.
I don't know what dispensationalism is. My presence here on this board is not pervasive as you may have suggested.

All promises are in Jesus indeed as you say ... and some of them are for Israel, others are for the church. It's according to whom Bible says they are for.
Actually, I don't deny Christ "His own entire, rightful, and exclusive entitlements as Fulfillment and Heir of all of God's promises and bequests."
In my opinion, Christ has the power to uphold promises made to Israel even in their current state of disbelief in him.
When Bible speaks about Israel, it's still Israel. Even in the New Testament.

Thomas

jgr · Jan 4, 2020

thomas_t said:
In my opinion, Christ has the power to uphold promises made to Israel even in their current state of disbelief in him.

Hi thomas_t,

2 Corinthians 1:20 declares:
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

The corollary which follows is that there are no promises of God for those who are not in Christ.

Israel is not in Christ.

There are no promises of God for it.

mkgal1 · Jan 4, 2020

thomas_t said:
All promises are in Jesus indeed as you say ... and some of them are for Israel

No, there's no division in the promises - as JGR is pointing out. Jesus IS the true Israel.

Quoting Kim Riddlebarger:
In Isaiah 41:8-9, the prophet spoke of a future restoration of Israel in these terms. “But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, `You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off.'” The same promise is reiterated in the next chapter of Isaiah (42:1-7), when the LORD declares of his servant, “I am the Lord; I have called you in righteousness; I will take you by the hand and keep you; I will give you as a covenant for the people, a light for the nations”( v. 6). Isaiah continues to speak of this servant in chapters 44 (vv. 1-2) and 45 (v. 4).

Dispensationalists, given their so-called "literal hermeneutic," are bound to interpret such passages literally, thereby assign the fulfillment of these prophecies of Isaiah to a future earthly millennium in which Israel co-exists with Gentiles under the reign of the Davidic king (See Walvoord, The Millennial Kingdom, 302-304; and Pentecost, Things to Come, 503-508). In effect, this amounts to the restoration of the monarchy as Jesus takes his place on David's royal throne and rules the nations from this restored Israel.

But is this how the New Testament interprets these messianic prophecies regarding the servant of the Lord? Who is this servant of the Lord? It is the nation of Israel, or is it Jesus, Israel’s Messiah?

In order to answer this questions, we must see that the gospel writers interpret these prophecies from Isaiah as fulfilled in the messianic mission of Jesus. First, in Matthew 12:15-21, for example, when Jesus withdrew from the crowds who had followed him, Matthew reports that this event fulfilled what had been spoken in Isaiah the prophet. This event serves to demonstrate that Jesus is the true servant of the Lord.

Second, as Jesus cast out demons and healed the sick, Matthew saw in this the fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecies of a suffering servant who would take upon himself our infirmities and carry our diseases (Matthew 8:17 with Isaiah 53:4).

Third, in Luke’s gospel, Luke speaks of both Israel (cf. Luke 1:54) and David as the servant of God (Luke 1:69). Yet in Acts, Luke pointedly speaks of Jesus as the servant of God (Acts 3:13). After his crucifixion, God raised Jesus from the dead so that people everywhere might be called to repentance (3:26).

Fourth, when the Ethiopian eunuch hears a reading from Isaiah 53:7-8 and asks Philip about whom this prophecy refers, Luke tells us that Philip informed the Ethiopian that this passage does indeed refer to Jesus (Acts 8:34-35).

But this is not all that is in view here. In Hosea 11:1, Hosea predicted a time when “Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.” But in Matthew 2:15, the evangelist tells us that Hosea’s prophecy was fulfilled when his parents took Jesus to Egypt to protect him from Herod’s “slaughter of the innocents” (Matthew 2:3-18). Yet, after Herod had died, God called Jesus and his family to return to Nazareth. Matthew takes a passage from Hosea, which clearly refers to Israel, and tells his reader that this passage is now fulfilled in Jesus Christ! He does this to prove to his largely Jewish audience that Jesus is the servant of the Lord, foretold throughout the Old Testament (especially Isaiah).

By now it should be clear that according to many New Testament writers, Jesus is the true servant, the true son and the true Israel of God. Recall too that it was Isaiah who spoke of Israel and the descendants of Abraham as the people of God. It as through the seed of Abraham that the nations of the earth would be blessed.

Therefore, even as Jesus is the true Israel, he is the true seed of Abraham. This is the point that Paul is making in Galatians 3:7-8, when he says “know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, `In you shall all the nations be blessed.'” ~ Riddleblog - The Latest Post - Amillennialism 101 -- Jesus Christ: The True Israel

thomas_t · Jan 5, 2020

jgr said:
Israel is not in Christ.

Israel is not in Christ indeed. Here we agree.

jgr said:
The corollary which follows is that there are no promises of God for those who are not in Christ.

corollary which follows? I don't agree here.
Every promise is in Christ... but some are made for people not in Christ. Enemies of the Gospel, for instance, can't be in Christ. Whoever is in Christ is a friend of the Gospel.
Nevertheless, Christ is even there for some people not in Christ - Israel in this case. Proven by Romans 11:28.
Thomas

mkgal1 · Jan 5, 2020

thomas_t said:
Every promise is in Christ... but some are for people not in Christ. Enemies of the Gospel, for instance, can't be in Christ. Whoever is in Christ is a friend of the Gospel.
Nevertheless, Christ is even there for some people not in Christ - Israel in this case. Proven by Romans 11:28.
Thomas

What you seem to be missing is that ALL the promises of Abraham were TO CHRIST the servant. Christ IS Israel. That's the mystery concealed in the Old Testament that the New Testament (and the life of Christ Jesus) revealed. You were concerned about us "disrespecting" the geopolitical nation of Israel - but where's your concern for stealing the identity of Christ Jesus in your interpretation? That's the most egregious Replacement theology of all time.

thomas_t · Jan 5, 2020

mkgal1 said:
No, there's no division in the promises - as JGR is pointing out. Jesus IS the true Israel.

I don't understand... are you saying that Jesus is unable to make promises to different recipients?
Jesus makes promises for:
children and parents
women and men
rich and poor
...
so he also able to make promises for Israel and the church. Very simple.
But still, all promises are in Christ, here we agree.
I also have a friend who makes promises for different persons simultaneously. And then keeps them. That's great,
Thomas

mkgal1 · Jan 5, 2020

thomas_t said:
I don't understand... are you saying that Jesus is unable to make promises to different recipients?

It's not a matter of inability - it's about what's true.....and what the Scriptures point to.....which is Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:16 ~ Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

thomas_t · Jan 5, 2020

mkgal1 said:
but where's your concern for stealing the identity of Christ Jesus in your interpretation? That's the most egregious Replacement theology of all time.

I am not stealing the identity of Christ Jesus.
Note that Romans 11:26 says Israel will be saved... However, Jesus was saved at that time already.
So, Jesus can't be meant by "Israel" in this chapter.

Believe me, Jesus truely made promises to different recipients.

mkgal1 · Jan 5, 2020

thomas_t said:
I am not stealing the identity of Christ Jesus.

You're free to tell yourself that story - but everyone that reads through this thread can see that is exactly what you're doing (your stealing it in your interpretation - you can't literally steal it from Him). It's how you're personally answering the question...."Who do you, Thomas, say I am?"....and "Who do you, Thomas, say the Scriptures testify of?".

thomas_t · Jan 5, 2020

mkgal1 said:
everyone that reads through this thread can see that is exactly what you're doing (your stealing it in your interpretation

no, I'm not stealing it in my interpretation, and nobody can see this happening. As I said, the Israel in my verse still needs to be saved. Jesus is already saved, as you know. So Jesus can't be the Israel in that verse.
Thomas

jgr · Jan 5, 2020

thomas_t said:
Every promise is in Christ... but some are made for people not in Christ. Enemies of the Gospel, for instance, can't be in Christ. Whoever is in Christ is a friend of the Gospel.
Nevertheless, Christ is even there for some people not in Christ - Israel in this case. Proven by Romans 11:28.

Atheists are not in Christ.

Satanists are not in Christ.

Antichrists are not in Christ.

All are enemies of the Gospel.

Is Christ there for them?

keras · Jan 5, 2020

jgr said:
Atheists are not in Christ.

Satanists are not in Christ.

Antichrists are not in Christ.

All are enemies of the Gospel.

Is Christ there for them?

The answer to that has to be; YES.
Jesus stands at the door an knocks and whoever opens the door, He will enter in. [open their hearts to Him, and they will be saved]
But will people do that?
The question posed by this thread is: Will the Jewish Israelis do that?

Nowhere does the Bible say there will be a general Jewish acceptance of Jesus. Zechariah 12:9-14 says that a few families will. Just a remnant, as stated in Romans 9:27, Isaiah 4:3-4, Isaiah 6:11-13

Thomas t, you are not winning this argument. Your replies smack of desperation and we all know why you must have a Israel on the ground, while you are 'raptured to heaven'.
Not going to happen; we have to endure until the end. Matthew 24:13

But for all those who are now faithful Christians, an amazing future awaits. Romans 9:24-26

jgr · Jan 5, 2020

thomas_t said:
Every promise is in Christ... but some are made for people not in Christ. Enemies of the Gospel, for instance, can't be in Christ. Whoever is in Christ is a friend of the Gospel.
Nevertheless, Christ is even there for some people not in Christ - Israel in this case. Proven by Romans 11:28.

Judas Iscariot was a Jew who was not in Christ. He was an enemy of the Gospel.

The Jewish leaders who conspired to put Christ to death were not in Christ. They were enemies of the Gospel.

According to your understanding, Christ will be there for all of them, so we'll see all of them in heaven.

Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Blessings Collector

Blessings Collector

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Blessings Collector

Well-Known Member

Blessings Collector

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Blessings Collector

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Blessings Collector

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Blessings Collector

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Blessings Collector

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Well-Known Member

Similar threads