Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

thomas_t

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You repeatedly ignore the fact that the commonality was not biological DNA. That was diluted very early on. The commonality was allegiance to the one True God. Your post seems to completely ignore this part of my post: [highlighting tension between Ezra 9 and other passages allowing foreigners to enter the assembly]
Hi Gal,
didn't I adress this part of yours? You acknowledge the fact hat there is a passage in Ezra that says Israelites shouldn't have foreign wives. Then you go on to say that it repeatedly happened that there were foreign wives, or foreign people in general, who were included. You see some tension there.

For the Christian church, in contrast, there is no Ezra 9 telling anybody that you shouldn't have wives from other races. For people inside the church there in no tension at all between passages that say you could and other passages saying you should not have wives from other races, as the latter simply don't exist for the church. And there's the difference between church and Israel, two different entities.
Thank you for being brief in replying, you're really concise now, I appreciate that.

Thomas
 
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thomas_t

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When they did that among themselves, here's what happened:

(Exodus 32:28, Numbers 16:49, 1 Samuel 4:10, 2 Chronicles 13:17).

No other races involved.
I wasn't clear enough: I was wanting to say when Israelites drew themselves away from faith within wedlock, nothing happened - that's my reading of the topic at least. When foreign wives did that in Ezra 9, in contrast, Ezra was quick to tear his garment. So race is involved.
Thomas
 
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thomas_t

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According to what the Bible says.
Bible teaching is clear; there have been believers and godless people since Adam. That is still the case today.
It is your attempts to make the Jews into a specially favored people, that is the actual Replacement.
Hi Keras,
I disagree. I'm not guilty of any replacement. Israel will be saved, that's what Romans 11:26 frankly states; I'm repeating it.
What is prophesied in Jeremiah 12:14-17 has not happened, it remains to be fulfilled. Saying it has without any proofs, is unacceptable.
I do have evidence for what I said: During the first exile, the things that happened were exactly like the ones predicted in your passage.
Jeremiah 50:4-5 plainly says TWO peoples: Israel and Judah will come together in the holy Land.
The Christian Israelites of God and the Messianic Jewish remnant.
I have to reiterate myself here: I said in my previous answer to you: this verse doesn't mention Christians, though. It is addressed to Jews.

You didn't bring one single new point to the table. Can we stop our discussion here?
You have the last word: but be sure, even if I don't answer: I don't agree with you saying that Israel is Christians now, I don't agree with any interpretation about punishment still to come according to you, and I definitely don't agree with you if you speak disrespectful again about Israel and the Jews in general.

Thomas
 
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jgr

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I wasn't clear enough: I was wanting to say when Israelites drew themselves away from faith within wedlock, nothing happened - that's my reading of the topic at least. When foreign wives did that in Ezra 9, in contrast, Ezra was quick to tear his garment. So race is involved.
Thomas

You don't think that any of the many thousands of Israelites that God slew for unfaithfulness and disobedience were married to other Israelites?
 
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mkgal1

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I wasn't clear enough: I was wanting to say when Israelites drew themselves away from faith within wedlock, nothing happened - that's my reading of the topic at least. When foreign wives did that in Ezra 9, in contrast, Ezra was quick to tear his garment. So race is involved.
Thomas
.....or a lack of keeping distance from those that practiced serving many other gods was involved. There's no outrage against Ruth.... Tamar, Rahab and they were "foreign wives".

ETA: ISTM this all has to do with this promise - found in Leviticus and repeated in 2 Corinthians.

Leviticus 26:11-12 ~ And I will make My dwelling place among you, and My soul will not despise you. I will walk among you and be your God, and you will be My people.​


2 Corinthians 6:16 ~ What agreement can exist between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be My people.”​
 
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mkgal1

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The “everlasting covenant” was to the “promised descendant”. If you look at the original Hebrew, it says “to you and to your seed (singular).” That seed is the messiah Jesus Christ. Jesus said “no man comes to the Father except by me.”

God preached the gospel to Abraham and when Abraham believed the gospel of Jesus Christ, he was made righteous. This was 430 years before the law, and the covenant of faith God makes with Abraham — that the seed (singular) would inherit that righteousness as an everlasting inheritance — means that only those who are “in Christ” and have the same faith in the gospel that Abraham had and was given righteousness for in Genesis 15 are counted as heirs of the promise.

Also, note that Abraham was made righteous for his faith in the gospel BEFORE he was circumcised... while he was a Gentile. God then changes his name to Abraham signifying he would have many adopted children from many nations, and then offers the everlasting covenant to those descendants in Genesis 17. Indeed, regarding Christ and those descendants, Isaiah prophesied:

Isaiah 54:1 (NASB) "Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no child; Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one will be more numerous Than the sons of the married woman," says the LORD.​

This means the adopted, spiritual heirs greatly outnumber the physical heirs. This also means there are only ONE people of God (those who are in Christ).
 
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keras

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Hi Keras,
I disagree. I'm not guilty of any replacement. Israel will be saved, that's what Romans 11:26 frankly states; I'm repeating it.
Thomas
The Israel that Paul refers to in Romans 11:26, is not and cannot be the current Jewish State of Israel.
Paul plainly says in verse 25, they will be saved only when the Gentile Christians are admitted into the Israel of God, in full strength.
God's Promises to Abraham will be fulfilled; by those who are Abrahams children by faith. Galatians 3:26-29
I have to reiterate myself here: I said in my previous answer to you: this verse doesn't mention Christians, though. It is addressed to Jews.

You didn't bring one single new point to the table. Can we stop our discussion here?
You have the last word: but be sure, even if I don't answer: I don't agree with you saying that Israel is Christians now, I don't agree with any interpretation about punishment still to come according to you, and I definitely don't agree with you if you speak disrespectful again about Israel and the Jews in general.
Thomas
Jeremiah 50:4-5 says how the two groups, Judah and Israel- both consisting of the faithful Christian peoples, will join in the holy Land.
It is 'Babylon', the ungodly nations, who is destroyed. Jer 50:1-3

So I have to respect the Jewish State of Israel? I have been there and have noted their arrogance and lack of acknowledgment of God.
God doesn't respect them and the Bible plainly states He will destroy them:
As these prophetic verses do not seem to have happened in the past, we must assume that there will be a final fulfilment:

Ezekiel 20:46-47 Look to the South; prophesy to the Negev. The Lord says: I am about to kindle a fire in you, it will consume all flammable things, green and dry alike. From the Negev northward, everyone will be scorched by it.

Ezekiel 21:4 It is because I intend to make away with both righteous and wicked alike, that My sword is drawn against everyone from the Negev, northward.

Isaiah 9:18-19 Wicked men have been set ablaze like a fire – wrapped in smoke. The Land is scorched by the fury of the Lord and the people are food for the fire.

Isaiah 28:22 Destruction is decreed on the whole Land.

Jeremiah 10:18 ….I will throw out the inhabitants of the land...

Jeremiah 21:11 & 14 To the Royal House of Judah; I shall punish you as you deserve, says the Lord. I shall set fire to your scrubland, [the Negev] it will devour everything round about.

Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord washes away the filth of Jerusalem and cleanses Zion, by a spirit of judgement like fire. On His terrible Day of fiery wrath.

Hosea 8:14 Israel has forgotten her Maker. Judah has many walled cities, but I shall burn them and fire will devour her citadels. Amos 2:4-5

Jeremiah 30:23-24 See what a scorching wind has gone out from the Lord, a sweeping whirlwind which whirls around the heads of the wicked.

Zephaniah 1:4-6 Judah will be judged and those who neither sought the Lord or enquired of Him, will be wiped out. v 14-18
Zechariah 3:9 In a single Day, I shall wipe away the guilt of this Land. Revelation 6:12-17. Isaiah 22:14
 
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jgr

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My point is the same: Christians never are beloved for the sake of some one else.
So Romans 11:28 can't be about the faithful remnant, as you suggest.

Romans 11:28 English transliteration:

1223 [e]
di’
δι’
on account of
Prep

1223. dia
Strong's Concordance
dia: through, on account of, because of
Original Word: διά
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: dia
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-ah')
Definition: through, on account of, because of
Usage: (a) gen: through, throughout, by the instrumentality of, (b) acc: through, on account of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of.

God loved the fathers (Deuteronomy 4:37; Deuteronomy 10:15), of whom Abraham was the first, for their faith and obedience.
Abraham is described as the father of the faithful. (Romans 4:16)
The fathers' faith and obedience were perpetuated across the millennia through the faith and obedience of their spiritual progeny.
Their spiritual progeny are identified as “the election” in Romans 11:5,7,28; a "remnant" in Romans 11:5; and “(be)loved” (Romans 11:28).
They too are characterized by faith and obedience.
As God loved the fathers for their faith and obedience, so too does He love “the election” for their faith and obedience.
“The election” exists because of the fathers and their faith and obedience.
“The election” is therefore beloved through, on account of, because of, by reason of, and for the sake of, the fathers.

Romans 11:28 is unmistakably about "the election" beloved faithful remnant.
 
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thomas_t

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Romans 11:28 is unmistakably about "the election" beloved faithful remnant.
Here we disagree.
The remnant consists of children of God, as you say. Here we agree.
Your word study of word 1223 seems to be right.

Children are never beloved because of someone else. Do you have children? When a father tells his child "I love you because of my grandmother!" ... this would cause a big injury.
Some earthly parents do this with their children though, loving them for someone else's sake. This is spiritually abusing children, in my opinion. Sometimes the father loves his son for the sake of his business that the son is supposed to carry on. Or for being good at school…. or...
Even if the child wouldn't exist without the grandmother... children should be loved for their own sake!

I conclude... the remnant, as faithful as they may be, cannot be referred to in Romans 11:28. They are included in all Israel, yet they aren't identical to it.

Thomas
 
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mkgal1

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Romans 11:28 English transliteration:

1223 [e]
di’
δι’
on account of
Prep

1223. dia
Strong's Concordance
dia: through, on account of, because of
Original Word: διά
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: dia
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-ah')
Definition: through, on account of, because of
Usage: (a) gen: through, throughout, by the instrumentality of, (b) acc: through, on account of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of.

God loved the fathers (Deuteronomy 4:37; Deuteronomy 10:15), of whom Abraham was the first, for their faith and obedience.
Abraham is described as the father of the faithful. (Romans 4:16)
The fathers' faith and obedience were perpetuated across the millennia through the faith and obedience of their spiritual progeny.
Their spiritual progeny are identified as “the election” in Romans 11:5,7,28; a "remnant" in Romans 11:5; and “(be)loved” (Romans 11:28).
They too are characterized by faith and obedience.
As God loved the fathers for their faith and obedience, so too does He love “the election” for their faith and obedience.
“The election” exists because of the fathers and their faith and obedience.
“The election” is therefore beloved through, on account of, because of, by reason of, and for the sake of, the fathers.

Romans 11:28 is unmistakably about "the election" beloved faithful remnant.
Just to add to this - Jesus is recoded as also saying that being a child of Abraham had to do with being of Abraham's spiritual DNA (as Abraham was the father of the faithful) :

John 8:39 - Our father is Abraham!” they declared. “No,” Jesus replied, “for if you were really the children of Abraham, you would follow his example.
 
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jgr

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The remnant consists of children of God, as you say. Here we agree.
Your word study of word 1223 seems to be right.

Thanks.

Children are never beloved because of someone else. Do you have children? When a father tells his child "I love you because of my grandmother!" ... this would cause a big injury.
Some earthly parents do this with their children though, loving them for someone else's sake. This is spiritually abusing children, in my opinion. Sometimes the father loves his son for the sake of his business that the son is supposed to carry on. Or for being good at school…. or...
Even if the child wouldn't exist without the grandmother... children should be loved for their own sake!

I conclude... the remnant, as faithful as they may be, cannot be referred to in Romans 11:28. They are included in all Israel, yet they aren't identical to it.

I'm completely confident that no member of the election in Paul's day ever developed an inferiority complex due to being informed that he or she was beloved because of the fathers.

Nor should any member of the election today.

Scripture unequivocally informs the election -- all who are in Christ – that they are (be)loved of God as they place their faith in Him and live according to His will. Being loved because of the fathers is simply an added blessing.

All who are in Christ should be cognizant, and if not should become cognizant, of the unrepayable spiritual debt that they owe to the forefathers of the faith, and their steadfast unwavering vision and sacrifice.

The election would not exist without them.

It is an honor and privilege to be numbered with the election because of them.

And to be loved because of them.
 
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thomas_t

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Hi jgr,
honor?
Without love a child can't live. It's about life! Children need love not honor. Love is neither a side issue nor an added blessing, as you suggest. Love is not just something you could feel honoured for. It's not just an award. God's love is life.
If God comes to talk about the fundamental aspects of his children's lives such as his love and salvation... he would not talk about an "added blessing" as you suggest. Salvation for his children is not an added blessing.
This passage can't be about his love for his children, if it's just about an added blessing, as you suggest. The whole relationship between God and his children is not about an added blessing. It's more.
All who are in Christ should be cognizant, and if not should become cognizant, of the unrepayable spiritual debt that they owe to the forefathers of the faith, and their steadfast unwavering vision and sacrifice.
This is vereration of the saints. I owe my faith to Jesus. I have 0 (zero) debt to pay to any of the forefathers, it's by grace alone I was saved.
It is an honor and privilege to be numbered with the election because of them.
I believe, there is only one intercessor between me and God - this isn't Mary, nor St. ..., nor a foretfather. It's Jesus. He alone. He is my savior, I'm convinced.
I believe there is not one Christian in the world that was saved because of somebody else than Jesus. Faithbased salvation is about one's own faith, not about obedience.

Thank you Lord Jesus.

Thomas
 
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mkgal1

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This is vereration of the saints. I owe my faith to Jesus. I have 0 (zero) debt to pay to any of the forefathers, it's by grace alone I was saved.
Maybe not a "debt to pay" (as JGR mentioned, it's unrepayable) but gratitude , I believe, should come naturally when we realize the faith and devotion to God our forefathers (and foremothers) had and how that brought us Jesus and the gospel. God's plan was fulfilled with the cooperation of faithful people.

How did God become incarnate? Was it not through the faith and sacrifice of young unwed Mary?

And what about John the Baptizer? Do you not see significance in his birth (and the role the faith and obedience of his parents played)?

And King David? Is Jesus not called "the Son of David"? Do you recall God made a covenant with David?

And Abraham? Remember that covenant? That seems to be what's being overlooked. Ancient Judaism was culturally centered around who a person's father was - but Jesus made the distinction that, in God's family, it's about faith to be a child of Abraham - and at the same time - a child of God.
 
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thomas_t

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I believe, should come naturally when we realize the faith and devotion to God our forefathers (and foremothers)had and how that brought us Jesus and the gospel
You have no verse to back this assertion up (bolded words).
In my opinion, it's the father himself who brought us Jesus and the Gospel, as the Bible suggests in Matthew 25:34. Note that this plan existed before the world was born.
Maybe not a "debt to pay" (as JGR mentioned, it's unrepayable) but gratitude
jgr was speaking of debt. There is no debt for me. Jesus took all my debt on the cross, I'm convinced. The payable and unrepayable debt.
Even if faithful people played a role indeed. They did a very good job in faith, this is undisputed.

Thomas

EDIT deleted one sentence
 
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mkgal1

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You have no verse to back this assertion up (bolded words).
In my opinion, it's the father himself who brought us Jesus and the Gospel, as the Bible suggests in Matthew 25:34. Note that this plan existed before the world was born.
It's the whole Bible story leading up to the birth of Jesus. Yes - His plan to become flesh and dwell with humanity was before the world was created - but His participation with His creation is critical to recognize. That's in His very nature to act in community. Even God Himself is a community of 3.

I just celebrated Christmas - so the faithfulness of Mary is at the forefront of my mind. God could have certainly formed Jesus without the participation of humans - but instead He chose to literally be within human flesh for His time of gestation.

Luke 1:28,30-38 - The angel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.” And the angel said to her, "Fear not, Mary; for you have found favor with God.
Behold, you will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus.
He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High.
The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David
and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever.
His kingdom will never end!”
How can this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the Holy One to be born will be called the Son of God.
Look, even Elizabeth your relative has conceived a son in her old age, and she who was called barren is in her sixth month.
For no word from God will ever fail.”

“I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May it happen to me according to your word.” Then the angel left her.
 
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jgr

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jgr was speaking of debt. There is no debt for me. Jesus took all my debt on the cross, I'm convinced. The payable and unrepayable debt.

Hi thomas_t,

Jesus paid the debt of our sin.

That's certainly not the debt I'm referring to.
 
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mkgal1

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jgr was speaking of debt. There is no debt for me. Jesus took all my debt on the cross, I'm convinced. The payable and unrepayable debt.
Want to venerate the saints? Venerate God instead. That's much better. Even if faithful people played a role indeed. They did a very good job in faith, this is undisputed.
When we read through the Bible - and learn of the great devotion and faithfulness of the whole community of people that ended up being key characters in "God's story" (and how He fulfilled what the Law and prophets foretold).....unless that sparks some glimmer of "gratitude" or even "awe"......how can we even have a complete faith ourselves?

I just don't understand how so much can be excluded and discounted. So much of what God had uniquely and amazingly accomplished - completely edited out of the story. Personally, it's a bit mind-blowing to me how God accomplished what He did - never having His plan go off-course - even with the severe short-comings of humanity.
 
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jgr

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This is vereration of the saints.

We recognize, acknowledge, and honor the faith, vision, and sacrifice of the defenders of the true faith who have gone before to bring us the spiritual heritage and freedoms of which we are beneficiaries today.

We do not worship them.
 
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mkgal1

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Thomas said:
Want to venerate the saints? Venerate God instead.
I don't see why we have to sacrifice one for the other? God formed a faith community throughout history - an eternal family we are part of. What your statement displays is an attitude of scarcity - as if our love/honor is limited and we have to be careful and ration it. I believe love is the opposite - it's a bit of a paradox - the more we give away the more love we actually have.
 
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Douggg

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Jeremiah 50:4-5 says how the two groups, Judah and Israel- both consisting of the faithful Christian peoples, will join in the holy Land.
It is 'Babylon', the ungodly nations, who is destroyed. Jer 50:1-3
Israel and Judah in that passage is referring to the two parts of the divided kingdom. The northern ten tribes - called Israel. And the southern two tribes - called Judah.
 
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