Texas church security volunteer was a firearms expert

Aldebaran · Dec 31, 2019

IceJad said:
While I respect America's A2 due to its history, I still feel it's disrespectful of our Lord that we bring weapons when entering His Presence.

As Christians, we are always in His presence. Gathering together in a church building doesn't change anything that way.

Aldebaran · Dec 31, 2019

IceJad said:
All this could have been avoided if everyone was made to put their weapon in a safe/locker before proceeding into the sanctuary. People who refuse to comply can't be allowed in. Not so much I'm questioning American rights but sense of reverence to God.

Or maybe a law that says murder is illegal, or one that says that felons are not allowed to possess a gun. If those aren't enough to stop someone from entering a church and shooting people, then just come up with a church rule to store your gun in a locker before entering. That would have stopped this guy, right?

section9+1 · Dec 31, 2019

I don't see how you could keep a gun out of a church if someone really wanted to bring one in. If there's an armed guard at the door just shoot the guard. I don't carry in church but if I knew half a dozen of the regular attending guys had guns in church it wouldn't bother me in the least.

Aldebaran · Dec 31, 2019

section9+1 said:
I don't see how you could keep a gun out of a church if someone really wanted to bring one in. If there's an armed guard at the door just shoot the guard. I don't carry in church but if I knew half a dozen of the regular attending guys had guns in church it wouldn't bother me in the least.

That reminds me of what happened in New Zealand. The shooter shot people who were outside the door first and then proceeded inside and shot everyone else there. I don't know if the guy outside was security or not, but it doesn't really matter. In the case of the church in Texas, the shooter felt confident enough to start shooting inside the church after being in there awhile, but "good guys with guns" stood up to stop him within 6 seconds--far faster than calling 9-1-1 and waiting for a SWAT team to arrive.

Rescued One · Dec 31, 2019

Thank God for all the lives saved.

IceJad · Dec 31, 2019

If the reason is if bad things is going to happen anyway why bother with rule and law then why not allow a chainsaw or a lumber axe into church?

It's like saying if a robber is going to rob my house regardless of security measures why bother locking the door. He could just as easily bust it down. Let's keep it open for the night.

IceJad · Dec 31, 2019

Aldebaran said:
As Christians, we are always in His presence. Gathering together in a church building doesn't change anything that way.

Moses was made to remove his sandles when approaching the burning bush because it's holy grounds. The embodiment of the Lord presence is there. So Moses must make an effort to acknowledge it. God was with Moses always but Moses did not undo his sandles all the time.

When we worship we make conscious effort to revere God. I don't play with my phone, open my laptop to work or go naked.

Is the act of worship something so lax? We don't make effort to be presentable before the Lord? And I'm not talking about in unfortunate times like war where soldiers have to have their guns near them all the time.

Rescued One · Dec 31, 2019

IceJad said:
Moses was made to remove his sandles when approaching the burning bush because it's holy grounds. The embodiment of the Lord presence is there. So Moses must make an effort to acknowledge it. God was with Moses always but Moses did not undo his sandles all the time.

When we worship we make conscious effort to revere God. I don't play with my phone, open my laptop to work or go naked.

Is the act of worship something so lax? We don't make effort to be presentable before the Lord? And I'm not talking about in unfortunate times like war where soldiers have to have their guns near them all the time.

That was war on the church members.

marineimaging · Dec 31, 2019

IceJad said:
Yes I'm quite aware it was the church security that shot the gunman. My point still stands as to why weapons was even allowed pass the doors of the church? The gunman got his weapon into the sanctuary. Sat there for a time before standing up and drawing his gun. There should be a policy to say no weapons inside. We have to remember the church while open to all is not a public place. Enforcing no weapons rule is not in violation of any American rights.

I carry in church and am part of the security team and weapons were allowed to pass the doors of the church because they were dutifully trained and controlled. I too am a former military expert with firearms and a former reserve police officer. We also have had hired police officers and trained volunteers carrying concealed in the sanctuary as well. The villain in this case was in disguise and in my opinion, from a security standpoint, they should have had two of the churches security team bracing him the whole time. One on each side, talking to him and evaluating his mental state. We have two choices; continue allowing church going, God fearing Christians to be made victims more in fear of being inside the sanctuary, or, allow defensive measures to be incorporated. Personally, I don't want a metal detector at the doors of our churches and would rather carry discretely and stop a bad guy if I must. Evil is evil and guns are not evil. People are evil.

SteveIndy · Dec 31, 2019

dqhall said:
The security volunteer also had law enforcement experience.
The assailant had a criminal record. No apparent racial motivation.

Texas church shooting: Security member who shot gunman is a former reserve deputy and firearms instructor - CNN

Many are reluctant to speak out about the killing in Texas this past Sunday because it seems so right to the flesh to kill to protect.

As we travel through this life there is no guarantee that we will not encounter someone who wants us dead. This has been the case for Christian believers from the very beginning. Don't you suppose that this is possibly one of the reasons we are to "examine (y)ourselves daily to be sure we are in the faith"? There is a faith that is not the faith which Paul eludes to here in 2 Cor.13:5. So, that person who is compelled to carry a gun for self-protection, is he compelled by a faith, or is he compelled by "the faith" which is a required prerequisite to call oneself a follower of the Lamb. At death, we do not need a faith we need THE faith.

The incident that occurred in Texas is a good reason to revisit this question. Christian history would not be "Christian" history if there were not for the endless list of those who sacrificed their own lives in the selfless act of picking up their cross and following Jesus in self-sacrifice. But history also has another side, there were those who chose to save their lives by bowing to the enemy, but the history books look at them in a completely different light. When you stop for self-examination do you consider which "faith" it is that you profess? The Bible declares that we will "know them by their fruit." The fruit that was displayed on this Sunday – at least seven men with guns – was not "good fruit" but rather the fruit of faithlessness, the fruit of this world. I do not completely blame the Church member who killed a man while he worshiped the God of forgiveness I blame the man behind the pulpit who should know better and should have preached better.

Protestant Christianity, almost to a man, has bought into the lie that it is okay to kill your enemies, which is completely contrary to the words and life of the Lamb that they say they follow. How can this be? Jesus, Himself gives us an explanation when He states that in the last days the truth would become a lie and the lie, truth, and today, lies were preferred above truth in this Texas town. If we look for proof of Jesus' words we needn't look past White Settlement, Texas. This Church had a killing committee for the express purpose to neutralize anyone who would dare interrupt their worship of the Lamb. This is the Christianity of 2020.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Dec 31, 2019

IceJad said:
While I don't object to anyone's right to have a gun, why are people allowed to enter the presence of God with weapons by their sides? Do we think coming into the presence of the Holy of Holies as a jest?

All this could have been avoided if everyone was made to put their weapon in a safe/locker before proceeding into the sanctuary. People who refuse to comply can't be allowed in. Not so much I'm questioning American rights but sense of reverence to God.

I could understand not having guns near the altar or sanctuary in a Church, but is it really a violation of the sanctity of Church if it's lay members in the pews? I don't see it as a problem for the laity in the pews if they're well known and have the consent of the parish/priest/pastor.

Rescued One · Dec 31, 2019

If Christians can't defend the innocent, who will? Should we not have a police force? If we have a police force, should each of them be an unbeliever? A Christian might not be concerned whether he lives or dies, but if he wants to protect others, why is he condemned?

I don't understand non-resistance if your resistance can save several lives.

dqhall · Jan 1, 2020

SteveIndy said:
Many are reluctant to speak out about the killing in Texas this past Sunday because it seems so right to the flesh to kill to protect.

As we travel through this life there is no guarantee that we will not encounter someone who wants us dead. This has been the case for Christian believers from the very beginning. Don't you suppose that this is possibly one of the reasons we are to "examine (y)ourselves daily to be sure we are in the faith"? There is a faith that is not the faith which Paul eludes to here in 2 Cor.13:5. So, that person who is compelled to carry a gun for self-protection, is he compelled by a faith, or is he compelled by "the faith" which is a required prerequisite to call oneself a follower of the Lamb. At death, we do not need a faith we need THE faith.

The incident that occurred in Texas is a good reason to revisit this question. Christian history would not be "Christian" history if there were not for the endless list of those who sacrificed their own lives in the selfless act of picking up their cross and following Jesus in self-sacrifice. But history also has another side, there were those who chose to save their lives by bowing to the enemy, but the history books look at them in a completely different light. When you stop for self-examination do you consider which "faith" it is that you profess? The Bible declares that we will "know them by their fruit." The fruit that was displayed on this Sunday – at least seven men with guns – was not "good fruit" but rather the fruit of faithlessness, the fruit of this world. I do not completely blame the Church member who killed a man while he worshiped the God of forgiveness I blame the man behind the pulpit who should know better and should have preached better.

Protestant Christianity, almost to a man, has bought into the lie that it is okay to kill your enemies, which is completely contrary to the words and life of the Lamb that they say they follow. How can this be? Jesus, Himself gives us an explanation when He states that in the last days the truth would become a lie and the lie, truth, and today, lies were preferred above truth in this Texas town. If we look for proof of Jesus' words we needn't look past White Settlement, Texas. This Church had a killing committee for the express purpose to neutralize anyone who would dare interrupt their worship of the Lamb. This is the Christianity of 2020.

Jesus did not carry a sword. He taught his disciples to avoid anger. He taught if someone strikes you on one cheek, turn and offer the other cheek.

The faithlessness in Texas was on the part of the stranger who walked into the church and killed two men. The act of self defense is not easily opposed, instead there is some joy the murderer was stopped. One who does nonresistance might receive blessings, but the one who acts in self defense is not taken to court.

Jesus was told about a centurion who had contributed to the building of a synagogue. A centurion was a military man achieving the highest rank possible without a political appointment. He commanded a unit of up to 100. The centurion had a servant who was ill and requested that Jesus might heal him. Jesus did (Luke 7).

Another time God asked a centurion of an Italian unit to send a request to Peter for him to go to Caesarea to visit him. God had remembered the centurion’s acts of charity to the poor. In spite of the fact the centurion was a military man acquainted with methods of killing, Peter was sent to him. Cornelius the centurion and his household received the Holy Spirit (Acts 10).

Some military and law enforcement will have enough faith to receive the Holy Spirit.

Joel 2:28 (WEB)
“It will happen afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh;
and your sons and your daughters will prophesy.
Your old men will dream dreams.
Your young men will see visions.”

tturt · Jan 1, 2020

Those that go into churches and synagogues or rabbis' homes iwith weapons must not expect any resistance (even in Tx). So there being members of the congregation who are armed is a great message. That fact alone may cause some not to pursue.

To the giving of your life for Christ point - for starters, the assumption is being made that everyone in that church was a believer.

In Scripture, murdering and killing are not the same such as "Every one that hates his brother is a murderer, and ye know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." I john 3:15. Hate proceeds murder. The commandment do not kill is really do not murder. Plus rom 13 - we fall under the governmental authorities.

SteveIndy · Jan 1, 2020

dqhall said:
Jesus did not carry a sword. He taught his disciples to avoid anger. He taught if someone strikes you on one cheek, turn and offer the other cheek.

The faithlessness in Texas was on the part of the stranger who walked into the church and killed two men. The act of self defense is not easily opposed, instead there is some joy the murderer was stopped. One who does nonresistance might receive blessings, but the one who acts in self defense is not taken to court.

Jesus was told about a centurion who had contributed to the building of a synagogue. A centurion was a military man achieving the highest rank possible without a political appointment. He commanded a unit of up to 100. The centurion had a servant who was ill and requested that Jesus might heal him. Jesus did (Luke 7).

Another time God asked a centurion of an Italian unit to send a request to Peter for him to go to Caesarea to visit him. God had remembered the centurion’s acts of charity to the poor. In spite of the fact the centurion was a military man acquainted with methods of killing, Peter was sent to him. Cornelius the centurion and his household received the Holy Spirit (Acts 10).

Some military and law enforcement will have enough faith to receive the Holy Spirit.

Joel 2:28 (WEB)
“It will happen afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh;
and your sons and your daughters will prophesy.
Your old men will dream dreams.
Your young men will see visions.”

You bring up the two examples of Centurions which is an argument from silence because we do not know anything about these men other than a very thin slice of time in which you argue your case. While you argue this questionable evidence you totally disregard everything else that is said plainly by example and from the lips of Jesus Himself, His Apostles, and 300 hundred years of obedience to His plain words. Protestantism has been doing this ever since Constantine released the Church to go and kill their enemies.

section9+1 · Jan 1, 2020

I have a gun and a fire extinguisher in my house. Neither one has been used for my safety or protection. Nevertheless, I will continue to keep them both. And God is just fine with both.

dqhall · Jan 1, 2020

SteveIndy said:
You bring up the two examples of Centurions which is an argument from silence because we do not know anything about these men other than a very thin slice of time in which you argue your case. While you argue this questionable evidence you totally disregard everything else that is said plainly by example and from the lips of Jesus Himself, His Apostles, and 300 hundred years of obedience to His plain words. Protestantism has been doing this ever since Constantine released the Church to go and kill their enemies.

There are Roman historians who recorded Roman military history. Catholic monks preserved these Latin works along with Greek histories and philosophies. It is possible to determine some of the history of Roman rule and military activities in first century Israel from the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus. You miss some of the context of the times of Jesus in limiting yourself to discovering silence.

renniks · Jan 1, 2020

IceJad said:
It's not different than saying a locked door/tall wall rules works. There are exception of course. But by and large when you put measures to prevent something, chances of that thing happening lessen.

What I suggested doesn't remove guns from the solution. You still need a good guy with a gun at the doors to make sure a bad guy with a gun don't get in so easily. No one gets to carry a gun inside the church. As a practical measure and a sign of respect to our Lord.

If people are allowed to carry gun everywhere why not into a court room? or say a hospital? or a bank? All I'm saying is there is a time and place for everything.

You gonna frisk every one as they come into church or what?

SteveIndy · Jan 2, 2020

dqhall said:
There are Roman historians who recorded Roman military history. Catholic monks preserved these Latin works along with Greek histories and philosophies. It is possible to determine some of the history of Roman rule and military activities in first century Israel from the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus. You miss some of the context of the times of Jesus in limiting yourself to discovering silence.

It is still an argument from silence. We simply do not know anything about these men other than what is said in Scripture, you can only assume and one assumption is as good as another. A better assumption would be to follow the pattern of others who came to Christ and that is that they left their military careers to follow Christ. The court does not care about the "context of the times" it only cares about the facts and the "facts" are that we simply do not know.

SteveIndy · Jan 2, 2020

section9+1 said:
I have a gun and a fire extinguisher in my house. Neither one has been used for my safety or protection. Nevertheless, I will continue to keep them both. And God is just fine with both.

You admit that you have "Made provision for the flesh" against the teaching of Christ and then pretend that "God is just fine with both"? This is Christianity of 2020!

Texas church security volunteer was a firearms expert

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