Do guns kill people, or people kill with guns?

Larnievc said:

You can kill someone with a loaf of bread. But it is dramatically easier to kill somebody with a gun.

It is therefor dramatically easier to kill people with guns.

Where is the confusion?

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Despite the claims that almost everything is a weapon I would be very surprised to hear about drive by 'loaf of bread' killings. Perhaps a machine that shot out a hundred loaves of bread per second would become commonplace.

and even the baseball bat I was told is used in Britain along with the unsupported claim that the homicide rate is higher in Britain because they use baseball bats and not guns... (there aren't many baseball bats in Britain, baseball is an American game...)

the gun restrictions implemented in Connecticut reduced the homicide rate, linearly it appears, totally contrary to the scare the gun makers put out (forget the NRA, they are just the middle man) that fewer guns would mean more murders. That has been so disproven it is ridiculous.

Switzerland had a lot of guns, more than the rest of Europe, and a higher murder rate. The US has more guns than anywhere in Europe and a higher murder rate. The deep South has fewer restrictions on gun ownership and use than the rest of the US and a higher murder rate

Aquila 04 said:

And yet despite all of this, despite the ridiculously high amount of privately owned firearms in the possession of a high amount of lawful gun owners most violent gun related crimes are caused by people who have a record or by people who are mentally unstable who's family or friends know they are but yet do nothing. Even a simple, "Hey, I know you've been struggling lately, how about you let us store your firearms for a while so you can get the help you need and then when you're ready we'll bring them back to you?" That in and of itself could possibly alleviate many issues.

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If there was a strong case that having a gun was a good thing for the "law-abiding mentally stable" citizen, then maybe you would have a point. But I highly doubt such a case can be made. I suspect what evidence there is shows that the number of times a gun is actually used successfully in self-defence is very low.

As you must surely know, hundreds of millions of citizens of nations as free as yours walk their streets at night without a sidearm and sleep in their beds without a gun under their pillow.

And they are statistically safer than you are in America.

Gun culture is very much a uniquely American phenomena - nowhere else in the free civilized world is there even the sniff of a movement to increase rights to have guns. While it is theoretically possible that all these other nations are somehow worse off for banishing guns, it beggars credulity to imagine that one nation alone has seen the wisdom of gun ownership while the rest of the free civilized world is somehow blind to the "advantages" of allowing even the law-abiding to have guns.

expos4ever said:

If there was a strong case that having a gun was a good thing for the "law-abiding mentally stable" citizen, then maybe you would have a point. But I highly doubt such a case can be made. I suspect what evidence there is shows that the number of times a gun is actually used successfully in self-defence is very low.

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You are right about the evidence. And those who reject statistics with some claim that they know if their finger is on the trigger etc etc, well just think about it for a moment:

suppose for some reason you had to rob someone

if the 'victim' kept their back to you while you left with their hands in the air you would quietly drive away.

if the 'victim' pulled a gun you would have to immediately shoot them to survive.

pretty simple really

A gun cannot kill anyone; it needs a person to pull the trigger.

Grandpa4 said:

A gun cannot kill anyone; it needs a person to pull the trigger.

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I wonder if you say the same about other things. If one has integrity then we know we are talking about the same thing and playing semantics is not only not useful but this far into the conversation you can be assured you are not the first to say it.

Grandpa4 said:

A gun cannot kill anyone; it needs a person to pull the trigger.

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Obviously true but certainly not an argument against gun control. To the extent that the gun makes it much easier to kill someone, it is indeed part of the problem.

Grandpa4 said:

A gun cannot kill anyone; it needs a person to pull the trigger.

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My sister sent me this a couple of years ago:

Today I swung my front door wide open and placed my Remington30.06 right in the doorway. I left 6 shells beside it, then left it alone and went about my business.

While I was gone, the mailman delivered my mail, the neighbor boy across the street mowed the yard, a girl walked her dog down the street, and quite a few cars stopped at the stop sign near the front of our house.

After about an hour, I checked on the gun. It was still sitting there, right where I had left it. It hadn't moved itself outside. It certainly hadn't killed anyone, even with the numerous opportunities it had been presented to do so.

In fact, it hadn't even loaded itself.

Well you can imagine my surprise, with all the media hype about how dangerous guns are and how they kill people.

Either the media is wrong, or I'm in possession of the laziest gun in the world.

Well, I'm off to check on my spoons. I hear they're making people fat.

Grandpa4 said:

A gun cannot kill anyone; it needs a person to pull the trigger.

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The staunchest guns rights guy I know got shot by his own gun without him or anyone else pulling the trigger.

DaveW-Ohev said:

My sister sent me this a couple of years ago:

Today I swung my front door wide open and placed my Remington30.06 right in the doorway. I left 6 shells beside it, then left it alone and went about my business.

While I was gone, the mailman delivered my mail, the neighbor boy across the street mowed the yard, a girl walked her dog down the street, and quite a few cars stopped at the stop sign near the front of our house.

After about an hour, I checked on the gun. It was still sitting there, right where I had left it. It hadn't moved itself outside. It certainly hadn't killed anyone, even with the numerous opportunities it had been presented to do so.

In fact, it hadn't even loaded itself.

Well you can imagine my surprise, with all the media hype about how dangerous guns are and how they kill people.

Either the media is wrong, or I'm in possession of the laziest gun in the world.

Well, I'm off to check on my spoons. I hear they're making people fat.

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Same applies to nuclear weapons so I suppose you also feel it is right that Iran should have them?

MorkandMindy said:

Same applies to nuclear weapons so I suppose you also feel it is right that Iran should have them?

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Psssst: You're not meant to extrapolate from their canned talking points.

Armoured said:

Psssst: You're not meant to extrapolate from their canned talking points.

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oops, sorry, I forgot the 'no thinking' rule
.

MorkandMindy said:

Same applies to nuclear weapons so I suppose you also feel it is right that Iran should have them?

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Of course. But I get them first.

Bluecheese said:

I am forever thankful that I live in the UK where owning a gun for protection is not permitted, and even our police are not routinely armed! When will the USofA realise that their crazy gun laws don't make them any safer?

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Indeed, gun don't kill people. People with guns kill people.

Similarly, gods don't kill people. People with gods kill people.
(George W Bush proved this when he claimed god told him to attack Iraq)

Jezabella said:

Indeed, gun don't kill people. People with guns kill people.

Similarly, gods don't kill people. People with gods kill people.
(George W Bush proved this when he claimed god told him to attack Iraq)

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And people necro ancient threads.

Strathos said:

And people necro ancient threads.

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You mean like how people continue to "necro" primitive gods?

farout said:

I can't understand why newscasters constantly say a person was killed by a gun. No it's a person who used a gun to kill someone..

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The same thing happens in automobile incidents, especially those involving pedestrians or bicyclists.
"The person was hit by a car.." vs. "the person was hit by a driver of a car."

farout said:

If the Liberal thinkers of our government continue to push for more restrictive gun control laws, and require everyone to register their gun or rifle, what would you do?

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I would do exactly what I do now. I have never owned a gun and have never found it necessary. I lead a circumspect life and choose my friends wisely. This was true in the seven years of my life when I lived in NYC as well as in all the other places I've lived.

People can murder others with weapons other than guns. They can kill themselves by other methods as well. But guns allow them to kill more quickly, more easily, and more certainly. If people had to 'get creative' with other methods of murder or suicide, there would be fewer--and certainly no mass murders.

Fantine said:

I would do exactly what I do now. I have never owned a gun and have never found it necessary. I lead a circumspect life and choose my friends wisely. This was true in the seven years of my life when I lived in NYC as well as in all the other places I've lived.

People can murder others with weapons other than guns. They can kill themselves by other methods as well. But guns allow them to kill more quickly, more easily, and more certainly. If people had to 'get creative' with other methods of murder or suicide, there would be fewer--and certainly no mass murders.

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Tell that to the families of those who were blown up.

Dave-W said:

My sister sent me this a couple of years ago:

Today I swung my front door wide open and placed my Remington30.06 right in the doorway. I left 6 shells beside it, then left it alone and went about my business.

While I was gone, the mailman delivered my mail, the neighbor boy across the street mowed the yard, a girl walked her dog down the street, and quite a few cars stopped at the stop sign near the front of our house.

After about an hour, I checked on the gun. It was still sitting there, right where I had left it. It hadn't moved itself outside. It certainly hadn't killed anyone, even with the numerous opportunities it had been presented to do so.

In fact, it hadn't even loaded itself.

Well you can imagine my surprise, with all the media hype about how dangerous guns are and how they kill people.

Either the media is wrong, or I'm in possession of the laziest gun in the world.

Well, I'm off to check on my spoons. I hear they're making people fat.

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it is really sad that you even feel you need to own a gun. Why? Why not pray for protection?

Jezabella said:

it is really sad that you even feel you need to own a gun. Why? Why not pray for protection?

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Why not do BOTH? They're not mutually exclusive...

There are relatively few dangers that we can realistically anticipate.

Heart attacks can strike out of the blue. Sometimes people get warning signs, but often they don't.
Same with cancer; they often grow to a dangerous extent before they're discovered.

Those two maladies kill the vast majority of Americans.

Some hazards can be anticipated and lessened:
Seat belts and airbags minimize the effects of auto accidents;
Smoke and CO alarms prevent many deaths;
Fire extinguishers can prevent small fires from becoming large ones;

In like manner, a gun can prevent or minimize the effects of criminal attack.

In all of these and more, God extends His protection to those He chooses to.

Since you're an atheist, I think you would believe in people doing all they can.