sovereigngrace
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The Fatal Flaw in Dispensationalism
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
sovereigngrace,
1. They asked the question because they knew they understood their KoH promises through the covenants which you refuse to comment on. Remember 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-7? Jerry Kelso
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sovereigngrace
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Not at all! I take it by this response that you have nothing?
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
It’s clear by your response you are afraid to comment on 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-7. Why? Because you know it would prove you wrong. Jerrykelso
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sovereigngrace
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The promise outlined here of a king from David’s seed to eternally reign upon his throne could not be met by anyone other than Messiah Christ. Plainly these prophecies pointed forward to Christ’s earthly ministry and coronation when He was raised to the right hand of majesty on high. He has been reigning since His ascension and will do forever. Only He could fulfil this high expectation.
Despite the overwhelming amount of evidence to the contrary, Premillennialists passionately argue that Christ is NOT currently reigning over His enemies, but is coming back at His Second Coming to do so. Such, they say, will involve Him setting up of a temporal earthly kingdom in the physical land of Israel where He will then rule over His enemies upon the physical throne of David for one thousand years. Nevertheless, there is not one single shred of evidence in the New Testament to substantiate that supposition, including Revelation 20, which makes absolutely NO reference whatsoever to an earthly reign of Christ upon the earth.
There is no biblical evidence to support the notion that Christ will have to return to this sin-cursed earth after His Coming to set up an earthly kingdom in order to finally defeat His enemies. Such a view, whilst widely taught over this past 170 years, is in clear contradiction to the explicit teaching that we have studied.
Such a glorious victory is already safely secured by His sinless life, His atoning death, His triumphant resurrection and His kingly reign in heaven. That final victory will be beautifully completed at His glorious Second Coming. Christ has perfectly fulfilled every demand of a thrice-holy God and therefore transcended every requirement and ordinance of the natural temple. Christ now stands as a living tabernacle being all the glory in Emmanuel’s land.
In Luke 1:26-27, 31-33 “the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.”
Gabriel said, “And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.”
Here we have the prophecy that Christ would be the one to assume David’s throne. Moreover, this would not be for a mere 1,000 yrs, as some claim, but forever. But when would this begin?
The answer is found in Acts 2:25-36. Here is the start of Christ's heavenly rule from heaven. Until you get a revelation of this you will never see the heavenly fulfilment of this. Peter preaching on Psalm 110:1, when speaking about David and his throne, says, “For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance [referring to Psalms 16:8-10]. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne [referring to Psalms 132:12]; he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption [referring to Psalms 16:10]. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, the Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand, until I make thy foes thy footstool [referring to Psalm 110:1]. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ” (Acts 2:25-36).
Peter shows us that Psalm 110:1 is currently being fulfilled since Christ destroyed the power of the grave, and ascended to the right hand of majesty on high. No objective Bible student could fail to see the focus and message of this narrative. This reading is concentrated upon the victory of the resurrection of Christ nearly 2,000 years ago and the resulting current kingly Messianic reign of Christ at “the right hand of God exalted” in heaven. It confirms that Israel’s Messiah now sits enthroned upon David’s throne, and locates the timing of His assumption of the same to after “the resurrection of Christ.” As Messiah, Christ fulfilled every human demand of Him, thus rightfully assuming the kingship of Israel through His impeccable life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection.
He personally testified after His victorious resurrection that “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).
Amils take Christ at His Word!
1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, “who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”
Because in Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily” He now is “the head of all principality and power" (Col 2:9-10).
You see, “by him all things consist” – that is “all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers” (Col 1:16-17).
Without a doubt Christ is reigning over His enemies since the resurrection, waiting for their final predetermined put down. Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds. They also circumvent clear New Testament writings that teach Christ is reigning now.
Philippians 2:9-11 says, “wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
He reigns today over the seen and the unseen world making every power and every authority “subject unto him.” I believe we are looking at a spiritual kingdom with spiritual dominion. We Christians carry that kingdom authority today.
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Guojing
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I have no idea why you still stubbornly refuse to admit that you are also interpreting the Bible to fit your "Its all spiritual" doctrine.
Is that difficult for you to concede that you are doing precisely the same thing as all of us here? At least Biblewriter is willing to admit that, but you kept insisting yours is the only "correct" view.
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
sovereigngrace,
1. 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-7; Ezekiel 37:16-28; all have the Davidic throne as physical not just spiritual.
It is about the physical house of David and physical throne of David with Jewish posterity forever.
You’re conflating the issue.
Did you go to school to learn how to spiritualized scripture and leave out the whole context? Jerry Kelso
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
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sovereigngrace
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sovereigngrace
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How about actually responding to my posts, remarks, exegesis, and Scripture. You just run off on irrelevant rabbit chases and get on your soap box and relay what you have been taught. Many of us once believed Dispensationalism. But we now see the error of that. All the time, the posts you have just sidestepped ably address and refute your whole paradigm. This is getting old!!!!
Please address my previous posts directly.
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sovereigngrace
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NT Scripture shows that He is now on David's throne since His resurrection. Paul joins Peter in relating the fulfilment of the Messianic enthronement to Christ’s current kingly reign in heaven. This truth is confirmed in Acts 13:22-23. Paul speaking to the religious Jews in Antioch says, concerning the promise of the Messiah and His rise to the throne of David, which was made unto their forefathers, “he (God) raised (aorist active indicative) up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. Of this man's (David’s) seed hath God according to his promise raised (aorist active indicative) unto Israel a saviour, Jesus.”
This Davidic reference was used by Paul to demonstrate (to his Israeli audience) that the much-anticipated eternal Davidic reign (prophesied for centuries in the Old Testament) had arrived in the form of Jesus Christ and His glorious resurrection. Christ was indeed Israel’s anticipated “king” and “saviour.” Premillennialists are selective in their interpretation of passages like this. The reason being: they have to be! Passages like this negate their doctrine. Whilst they except Christ as Israel’s current “saviour,” they do not except Him was Israel’s current ruling “king.” However, this text exposes their objection. This passage proves that Christ is presented as already perfectly fulfilling the Davidic expectancy.
Paul adds in Acts 13:26-30, “Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. But God raised him from the dead.”
It is clear from this whole chapter that these misguided Jews still foolishly yearned for a coming Messiah who would one day reign upon a physical temporal earthly throne in Jerusalem, when He had in fact already come and rose to the heavenly Davidic throne. These earthly-minded Jews totally missed the hour of their visitation because of their false theology. They totally misunderstood who their Messiah was and what form His reign would look like. The sobering part of this text is, their misinterpretation of Scripture, and their false expectation, caused them to miss their Messiah. The fact is, He came to Israel and most Jews never even recognised Him for who He was. They had such a wrong perception of their own king.
Paul then enlarges and explains, “And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers (speaking about the kingly Messianic reign that would usher from the seed of David), God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that [Psalm 2] he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise [His glorious rise to the throne], I will give you the sure mercies of David [quoting Isaiah 55:3]” (vv 32-34).
What is majorly significant with this whole discourse from an eschatological point of view is that Paul references 2 popular Old Testament prophecies that the Jews commonly used anticipating the Messianic appearing and Davidic reign and showed how they have been fulfilled in the person of Christ and the victory of the resurrection. Here in explicit language Paul describes the realization of these Messianic predictions; the promised Messiah had already come and taken the throne of David, although, evidently, not in the person or in the manner that they had carnally imagined.
Paul here applies the Old Testament Davidic promises in Psalm 2 and Isaiah 55 to Christ’s resurrection to the throne; and explains how such prophecies had already marvellously happened. Christ’s sinless life and His atoning death would’ve meant nothing if He hadn’t conquered the grave. Isaiah 55:3 reads, “I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.”
By employing these two messianic passages, Paul is, here, confirming an important (and truly significant) eternal truth that proves that Christ has already assumed His kingly reign over Israel, as the prophets said it would be. His victorious triumph over death at the resurrection was the complete fulfilment of “the promise which was made unto the (Old Testament) fathers.” The reading declares, “God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus.” Then speaking of this glorious act, Paul says, “And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise I will give you the sure mercies of David.”
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sovereigngrace
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When did Jesus ever make the offer of a political kingdom to the Jews during his earthly ministry?
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
Not till you do and not till you quit being untruthful and being insulting that I or other people don’t ever address your posts directly when you are the one that is the one ducking and being one sided and acting superior and acting like no one knows the scripture but you.
Your posts are the longest I have ever seen on the average. Where do print those from?
And they are the longest rabbit trails.
You have enough information not to have to stoop to such shenanigans. Please start being fair and honest. Jerry Kelso
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sovereigngrace
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No you have not! Post after post has been sidestepped and ignored. The good thing about a forum like this, they do not need to take my word for it, they can see it for themselves.
I refer you back you multiple posts that challenge your position and negate Pretrib.
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
sovereigngrace,
1. I am willing to start fresh and forget the posts before.
2. Responses should be as pithy as can be and stick to the basic context of the scriptures given conducive to the subject in question as a general rule so it doesn’t get lost in the shuffle.
3. Staying to the point of the scripture is more than a presupposition first and then giving a scripture.
4. Challenges are fine and questions to help understand where one is coming from and understand the position is fine.
Making accusations has to be answered with a why and scriptural backup.
5. Personal barbs of superiority and dishonest and belittling statements statements should not be acceptable.
Food for thought! Are you willing to do this?
Jerry Kelso
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sovereigngrace
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jerry kelso
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sovereigngrace,
1. Genesis 1:26-28; shows Adam and Eve have physical rule over all the physical earth including physical animals.
This would make sense to represent the physical KoH reign on earth that is a part of the physical universe known as the KoG.
This physical kingdom was lost because they had to be kicked out of the garden Genesis 22-24.
This brought a physical curse of creation.
2. They had to be sinless because the only sin they could sin that was mentioned was to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil Genesis 2:17 or else they would die which was eternal death, because if they would have eaten of the tree of life and their immortality would live forever in sin and would have no way to be redeemed.
This Kingdom was spiritual and was lost because they sinned.
For their spiritual sin they were given physical judgments Genesis 3:14-19.
This was the real beginning of the KoH physical and KoG spiritual. God will not rule with man without a holy heart Hebrews 12:14; Follow peace with all men, and men, without which no man shall see the Lord.
So do you agree with this assessment or not? Jerry Kelso
1. Genesis 1:26-28; shows Adam and Eve have physical rule over all the physical earth including physical animals.
This would make sense to represent the physical KoH reign on earth that is a part of the physical universe known as the KoG.
This physical kingdom was lost because they had to be kicked out of the garden Genesis 22-24.
This brought a physical curse of creation.
2. They had to be sinless because the only sin they could sin that was mentioned was to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil Genesis 2:17 or else they would die which was eternal death, because if they would have eaten of the tree of life and their immortality would live forever in sin and would have no way to be redeemed.
This Kingdom was spiritual and was lost because they sinned.
For their spiritual sin they were given physical judgments Genesis 3:14-19.
This was the real beginning of the KoH physical and KoG spiritual. God will not rule with man without a holy heart Hebrews 12:14; Follow peace with all men, and men, without which no man shall see the Lord.
So do you agree with this assessment or not? Jerry Kelso
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Jerry Kelso:
<< 1. Separation of the tares and wheat is not a coming.
2. The Jewish elect will be the wheat gathered Matthew 24:33 from the 4 winds of Heaven which is actually the earth the same as Revelation 7:1. >>
Jesus already explained the Parable of the Weeds to the Apostles and He did not say that it applies primarily or exclusively to the Jews. Jesus said, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man." Then the "good seed" must be the Christians, all followers of Jesus Christ.
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.
Matthew 13:36-43 NIV
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Jerry,
On the subject of whether Jesus came to offer the Jews a political kingdom with Himself as King, consider this. During the Temptation of Christ, the Devil offered "all kingdoms of the world" to Jesus and Jesus rejected the offer.
Repudiation of kingship
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”
Matthew 4:8-10 NIV
In the following passage, Jesus specifically says that God the Father reigns in Heaven, and the earth is only an extension of that Kingdom. He does not refer to Himself as King in the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Heaven, or on earth.
34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.
Matthew 5:34-35 NIV
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