Al Touthentop

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But Jesus says pray for your enemies. Who would have ever thought to pray for Saul before he became Paul? Would it have been wrong for the father to pray for his prodigal son to come back home and seek forgiveness with him? Surely not.

No, but that's the sort of prayer we are to pray. We don't pray for God to forgive their sins because we know that such a prayer is going against his word. We might pray that they be given some insight or that their conscience be restored. He was speaking about the context of praying for a person's sins. I think he's saying here don't waste your prayers praying for forgiveness of unrepented sins.
 
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Al Touthentop

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I'm glad you brought that up. Something I wrote to some friends concerning this "license to sin". I saved the post and called it "FAKE ID".

Paul I guess was mistaken and a heretic.

"Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Certainly not!"
 
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Al Touthentop

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OK, so you don't believe that God has policies for His children. One doesn't have to use the word "policy" in order to have them.

Show me a place where God says his commands are optional.
 
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Al Touthentop

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How do you gauge their spiritual status?
They were members of the church. They started out that way anyway. Otherwise they wouldn't have been providing funds for it.
 
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Al Touthentop

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I believe in the 1st epistle of John chapter 5, the apostle John is correcting a misunderstanding on what he meant he said in a previous letter or writing. John is essentially telling them, "I wasn't talking about how you should pray for those who do commit the sin unto death. My point was more specifically for you to pray for those brethren who are seeking to overcome sin by confessing it (i.e. the sin that does not lead unto death)."

I think we're saying the same thing.
 
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Al Touthentop

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Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Grace and Peace….

He was rebuking them for going back to the law of Moses. They were obeying the wrong law. It's not mysterious his context and you are trying to broaden that context to cover your own believe rather than conforming your belief to what he's written.
 
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Skidder

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He was rebuking them for going back to the law of Moses. They were obeying the wrong law. It's not mysterious his context and you are trying to broaden that context to cover your own believe rather than conforming your belief to what he's written.
Everyone is conscience of the law through their own conscience. Paul was speaking to gentiles when He said this. The law shows us that we are sinners. THIS APPLIES TO EVERYONE!! Everyone is freed COMPLETELY of the law ONLY through the death of Christ.

Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Romans 7:1

Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?

What law is he talking about when he says EVERYONE? Yes, the same law He is talking about in the previous chapters.

Romans 7:3
So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.

Romans 7:4
Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

Romans 7:5
For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

Romans 7:6
But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

What law? The same LAW!

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Romans 7:9
I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

What law? THE SAME LAW...

Romans 7:12
Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Romans 7:16
If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.


Romans 7:22
For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

Inward man? Is this inward man only the inward man of the Jews? ABSOLUTELY NOT, he is speaking to EVERYONE both Jews and gentiles, but if you must argue this letter was written to the church in ROME!!!

Everyone's conscience is pricked by the HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS LAW OF GOD and that is why NOT ONE JOT OR TITTLE SHALL BE REMOVED. Why? Because the law is a schoolmaster (tutor) to bring us to Christ. A schoolmaster (tutor) to both Jews and gentiles! The law can chase us to Calvary but no further.

Matthew 5:18
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Why does Jesus say that not one jot or tittle shall be removed? BECAUSE THE LAW REVEALS WE ARE SINNERS AND IS OUR SCHOOLMASTER TO BRING US TO CHRIST! Do you not understand that!

Galatians 3:24
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:25
But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Galatians 2:19
For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.

Again what law do you think he is referring to when talking to GENTILES???

You have no Idea what the law is for do you?

The only way to DIE TO THE LAW is through THE BODY OF CHRIST!! And still more proof of this...

Ephesians 2:15
having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

Philippians 3:9
and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

1 Timothy 1:8
But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,

1 Timothy 1:9
knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,


Again, what LAW is he referring to in these letters to the GENTILES???

Hebrews 7:19
for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

James 2:9
but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

And you still want to remove the the law, when this law is in place law to bring both Jews and Gentiles to Christ???

Matthew 5:18
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.







 
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Al Touthentop

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Everyone is conscience of the law through their own conscience. Paul was speaking to gentiles when He said this. The law shows us that we are sinners. THIS APPLIES TO EVERYONE!! Everyone is freed COMPLETELY of the law ONLY through the death of Christ.

Paul was talking about the law of Moses, not your conscience. You understand right that nobody has ever gotten circumcised just because their conscience bothered them?

Paul in Galatians is talking to them about returning to the law of Moses. The 633 statutes that are listed in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and the prophets which were abolished by Jesus' sacrifice.

You keep quoting it and discussing it but have never actually tried to comprehend it. Most of what you say has absolutely nothing to do with the scriptures you quote.
 
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Al Touthentop

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I believe the Sinner's Prayer is not the sum total of salvation. But I do believe it is found in the Scriptures. Here is a thread I created on that a while back.

Is The Sinner’s Prayer Biblical?

May God bless you, brother.

The sinner's prayer was invented in 1939. I was never taught before then. Even if somebody were to pray it, it wouldn't put them in Christ.
 
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Skidder

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Paul was talking about the law of Moses, not your conscience. You understand right that nobody has ever gotten circumcised just because their conscience bothered them?

Paul in Galatians is talking to them about returning to the law of Moses. The 633 statutes that are listed in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and the prophets which were abolished by Jesus' sacrifice.

You keep quoting it and discussing it but have never actually tried to comprehend it. Most of what you say has absolutely nothing to do with the scriptures you quote.
The law is for both Jews and Gentiles to bring them to Christ. The law reveals to EVERYONE that they are sinners and need a Savior. You you have no idea what you are talking about....

Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Galatians 3:24
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
 
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The sinner's prayer was invented in 1939. I was never taught before then. Even if somebody were to pray it, it wouldn't put them in Christ.

No, my brother. Please carefully read the verses in the CF thread. They are unmistakable. The Bible clearly teaches the Sinner's Prayer. It is just another way of saying repentance. Also, what do you think the Tax Collector did when he cried out unto the Lord for mercy? (Luke 18:9-14). What about the Prodigal Son? Did he not plan to seek forgiveness with his father? (Luke 15:11-32).
 
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Al Touthentop

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There were Tares in the church from it's inception.

I agree. But they were baptized and they were church members. They turned away, thinking that they could be men pleasers rather than God pleasers. But consider this. They were destroyed, not for one of the sins most people consider the most heinous but for lying.

And the parable of the tares was about the church. It isn't until a person produces fruit that you see whether or not he is sincere or not. He can believe, he can get baptized, he can go to church, he can produce good fruit and then he can later produce bad fruit. That doesn't mean he was never a Christian. The difference between us and tares or wheat, is that we can decide whether we are tares or wheat. What sort of fruit we produce is up to us.

"Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit."

Jesus taught that this was our decision. We can change what sort of fruit we are going to produce.

Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

That's pretty clear too that this applies to all men, not just those who are not Christians. In fact, it would be an odd thing indeed for a just God to hold Christians to a lower standard than he would hold unbelievers. James tells us we're going to be held to a higher standard, especially if we presume to teach God's word. That by itself should tell us that God plans to be pretty strict when it comes to the doctrine he delivered to us.
 
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Al Touthentop

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Being baptised and church members does not guarantee they were born again.

Paul certainly thought so. He preached that baptism was how a person was born again.

It is clear that no one will know who are Tares...

Until they bear fruit. That's why in the parable the land owner tells the workers to just let them grow up. Tares look like wheat but they produce black seeds.

Until then, you can't tell the difference.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Well we are told that angels will be appointed to seperate the wheat from the tares - implying that without God's help this is not possible...
Matt 13
36 Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.” 37 And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. 40 “So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41 “The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43“Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
That's the whole point. They died physically. There is NOTHING about losing salvation, but you have to invent such a story to hold up your false doctrine.
So after lying to God, they were saved. Gotcha. So we can continue in sin.
I see. You think Jesus didn't die for lying. Is that it? Or only for some lies? What is it?

The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ died for ALL sins. Period.

Let me ask a related and parallel question. When a child lies to their parent, does that change the child's DNA and makes them NOT the child of their parent?

That's basically what your theology claims.

Instead, God the Father disciplines His child. And He uses physical death, as I proved from 1 Cor 11:30.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
OK, so you don't believe that God has policies for His children. One doesn't have to use the word "policy" in order to have them.
Show me a place where God says his commands are optional.
OK, so you don't understand what a policy statement is. My bad. I thought that was a universal understanding among adults. Guess not.

Or maybe you just don't think God has any policies at all.

However, every command and warning is basically a policy statement from God. Whether you grasp that or not.

The Bible doesn't need to attach words that you demand in order to "prove" the statement is a policy statement. That would be ridiculous.
 
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(Hebrews 3:12-13).
 
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