5. Yes, I do believe in s pre- Trib rapture but not just from Revelation 4:1.
The fact is that you can’t prove a post trib rapture at the second coming.
It is only a resurrection of the dead Jewish martyrs of the tribulation Revelation 15:1-2;20:4-6.
You have to insert 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 to make a post- trib rapture work.
Revelation 19:11-20 has all the saints from Adam’s day to the tribulation saints Revelation 20:4-6.
You may think post is a sure thing but I believe I have shown more evidence for pre-trib that makes it more possible and viable than the post-trib position. Jerry Kelso
Jesus says of His Coming in Matthew 24:29-31,
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (erchomai) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together’ [or episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
This is referring to the exact same event as is described in 1 Thessalonians 4. It is the Coming of the Lord that is signalled by the sound of the last trump and the uniting of the elect both on earth and in heaven. Christ tells us that the angels “shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” This agrees with Paul’s assertion in 1 Thessalonians 4 that Christ will come with
and for His saints at His Coming. Those saints that the angels gather in heaven are the "dead in Christ," those that are gathered from the four winds of the earth are 'the live in Christ'. This is describing the same event. Moreover, this passage locates the catching away at the end of the tribulation, not seven years before it. There is no 7-year tribulation period mentioned in Matthew 24:29-30, or anywhere else for that matter.
I have repeatedly showed you that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and Revelation 19 are climactic, but you duck around them and fail to acknowledge the sacred text that forbids Pretrib. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 confirms:
“we which are alive and remain unto the Coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”
This is a record of Christ’s one and only future Coming. This reading describes how Christ comes “with”
and “for” His saints the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living believers will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the final uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ). It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end. The word rendered “remain” in our King James Version (which relates to those that are alive at Christ’s Coming) is the Greek word
perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.
This Coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s Coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this Coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The
“sudden destruction” is so impactful that
none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.
Pretribbers have to divorce 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 from other similar passages that refer to the coming of Christ with the trumpet of God. For them to do otherwise would totally demolish their doctrine.
This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the
“sudden” and total
“destruction” of the wicked: “
they shall not escape.”
I mean, the Holy Spirit could not have made it clearer: "they shall not escape." This totally negates the whole Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 declares:
“the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed)
in that day.”
Here Christ glorifies His saints and He destroys the wicked from His presence. What unsaved individuals do you consider are excluded from those "that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"?
The day of the Lord is near, it is approaching, it is at hand.
Once again “
the coming of our Lord” and
“the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same concluding day of time. Paul is encouraging the Church here to remain strong and steadfast as they await the coming of the day of the Lord. This day, that comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night, will catch the wicked unprepared. He tells the Thessalonians not to be “soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us.” This would suggest that there would be times of trial and tribulation to endure before this great climactic event. What is more, it is an approaching event that the Church was to prepare for, because: “the day of the Lord is at hand (or
enistemi meaning impending).”
We should carefully note that this is the time when the Church is gathered unto the Lord. The coming (
parousia) of the Lord witnesses the gathering of the saints – dead and alive. The dead in Christ are resurrected; the alive in Christ are caught up. The phrase “gathering together” is taken from the Greek word
episunagoge proving that the Church isn't raptured until the one final coming of Christ at the day of the Lord.
This is sudden, climactic and totally destructive. It sees God rescuing His elect and destroying the wicked.
Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30,
“as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”
The plain focus of this teaching in Luke 17 (reference Noah and Lot’s day) is the nature and degree of the judgment that befell the wicked in these two familiar Old Testament stories and especially the extent of that particular wrath. The key element and major emphasis of this discourse is the fact (speaking of the ungodly) that God
“destroyed them all.” The comprehensive destruction of the wicked in both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative; both the whole world of Noah’s day and the whole individual city of Sodom in Lot’s day
saw the immediate and complete rescue of the entire righteous coupled together with the immediate and complete destruction of the entire wicked.
The solemn side of the parable about the 10 virgins is the awful plight of the five foolish virgins who had no oil in their lamps. Like the wicked that were left in Noah’s day, the religious will cry when it is too late:
“Lord, Lord, open to us.” The only problem is: it is too late. The solemn cry will come from the Master,
“Verily I say unto you, I know you not” (vv 11-12). This is exactly what Jesus says to the wicked at the final judgment. He isn't saying: 'welcome to a 7 yr trib' or 'welcome to the Premil millennium for another chance'. Sadly, they are damned and doomed for all eternity. That is what happens when Jesus comes: the elect are rescued, those left behind are destroyed.
Scripture makes it abundantly clear that salvation will not always be available. There is a termination point to God’s gracious offer of salvation. That conclusion comes when Jesus comes at the end (or
telos).
There are no mortals left to populate the half-delivered and half-bound, semi-glorious and semi-corrupt undesirable Premil mongrel earth filled equally with righteousness and unrighteousness, sin and sinlessness, glorified saints and mortal rebels, immortality and mortality, peace and harmony and war and terror. This concept is totally unknown to Scripture. There is no sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennial age in the future. Scripture forbids it.
I believe Revelation 19 completes the 6th of 7 parallels in Revelation that describe the intra-Advent and conclude with the climactic return of Christ. After
“the marriage of the Lamb” (Revelation 19:7), which is the glorification of the saints of all time (including the dead in Christ and the live in Christ), the saints return as an army (following Christ) to destroy the wicked. John sees
“heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True … And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean” (11-14).
Jesus is returning for a prepared people. He is relentlessly exhorting His listeners to “watch” and be “ready” for His return because it is then that He will pour out His wrath upon all mankind who are not prepared, ready and rescued.
John says,
“heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns … out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King of kings, and Lord of lords” (Revelation 19:11-16).
Verses 17-18, saying,
“I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The (
loipoy or
remaining ones or
those left behind) were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”
The beast's army is totally destroyed in Revelation 19. There are no wicked to inherit the millennium, as Premil contends. They are wiped. Everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with
“the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.
Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with
“a sharp sword” that comes
“out of his mouth.” He destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth. He then
“treadeth (or tramples)
the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”
The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are
thumos and
orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath, indignation and vengeance’. The word
orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.
The picture being portrayed here is that of the grapes being crushed by the vineyard worker making wine. The reference to “the winepress” is symbolic language denoting the fate of the wicked when Christ appears – that is why it is called “
the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” The Christ-rejecter misses the catching away, and is consequently trampled underfoot like grapes being crushed in a winepress. The grapes are the disobedient of all nations.
How can these rebels possibly escape such a furious end? True judgment and righteousness has now arrived in the form of Christ and the glorified saints. Like every other Second Coming passage, this is climactic language describing the final end of rebellious man
