Did Jesus inherit original sin from Mary?

Peter John

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No such thing as original sin, we are all responsible for our own sins. Just like God did not choose any of my family, (as far as I am aware) to true belief in Him, nor did any parental sins get passed down. The only thing sometimes passed through genes, is illness. As Yeshua was sinless, He did not suffer illness.
Also, Mary called Yeshua 'God my saviour' in Lk1v47.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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My doctrine comes from reading the Bible many times following a spiritual experience. It is insulting to me to have someone say I'd follow the church doctrine; I am a pure Berean at heart....period!

No it doesn't. It is ORIGINALLY a concept of the Church of Rome. Either way you agree with Rome...
 
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miamited

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What I would give for the published "Gospel according to Ted". Lol. Keep your 2 cents Ted.
You would do better to think longer and harder on these matters... Here is something, maybe study some Eucharistic miracles (where un- explainable phenomena relating to the consecrated Bread and Wine into the Body and Blood of the Lord has occurred) Guess what Ted? The Bread - consecrated into His Body - has turned into actual flesh... guess what else Ted? The bread had turned into the myocardium, the endocardium, the vagus nerve and also the left ventricle of the heart for the large thickness of the myocardium... guess what else Ted? The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood-type: AB (Blood-type identical to that which Prof. Baima Bollone uncovered in the Holy Shroud of Turin)... not enough Ted? Here, in the Blood there were found proteins in the same normal proportions (percentage-wise) as are found in the sero-proteic make-up of the fresh normal blood.
In the Blood there were also found these minerals: chlorides, phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, sodium and calcium...
The Eucharistic miracle I am speaking of is the "Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano Italy".
This miracle occurred in the 8th century A.D.
The preservation of the Flesh and of the Blood, which were left in their natural state for twelve centuries and exposed to the action of atmospheric and biological agents, remains an extraordinary phenomenon.

Laudate Deum!
Christus Vincit!
All glory and honor to Jesus Christ forever!

Hi DV,

I'm not sure what any of that, if it is true, has to do with my position as to whether or not the embryo of Jesus, as he lay in his mother's womb, had any of his mother's or his father's egg or sperm as the first building blocks of his life.

I'm certainly not denying that Jesus had 'real' blood. I'm not denying that his blood had a type, as we rate human blood. I'm not denying that his body was real flesh and blood just like any child born of a woman today would have. All I'm saying is that the angel told Mary that what was conceived in her womb was of the Holy Spirit. That could mean that the Holy Spirit merely attached a fully functioning embryo to the wall of Mary's womb that had neither her egg nor Joseph's sperm as the initial creator of that embryo, as it would be in every other child that has ever been born of a woman.

God is God and He has the authority and power to do the impossible. He can make water to stand unaided straight up in the air hundreds of feet high. He can make the sun to stand still in the sky and shadows cast by the sun to move backwards of the natural way that shadows from the sun move as the earth spins on its axis. He can cause a river and all ground water in an entire region to become blood. He can surely implant a functioning embryo in the womb of a woman without having to use surgical instruments or creating some sort of sexual union between the woman and the Holy Spirit.

So, I'm not clear on how any of your argument addresses that understanding. Perhaps you could be a bit more clear on how you think it would.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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Mountainmanbob

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Holy Spirit on the male side.
Humanity on the female side.




Where does original sin come into the equation?

That would make us very different.
Eve was made from the rib.
We have (a whole lot) in common.

Original sin.
Maybe passed down though blood?
Life is in the blood.

If it could be found
there's probably sin in our DNA?
It's everywhere down here.

M-Bob
 
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misput

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No such thing as original sin, we are all responsible for our own sins. Just like God did not choose any of my family, (as far as I am aware) to true belief in Him, nor did any parental sins get passed down. The only thing sometimes passed through genes, is illness. As Yeshua was sinless, He did not suffer illness.
Also, Mary called Yeshua 'God my saviour' in Lk1v47.
Some of these folks are saying we inherit a natural tendency to sin (the fleshly nature of man) which is true but they are calling that original sin. It is not. Sin comes in when we knowingly yield to the natural tendency instead of believing God.
 
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misput

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Some of these folks are saying we inherit a natural tendency to sin (the fleshly nature of man) which is true but they are calling that original sin. It is not. Sin comes in when we knowingly yield to the natural tendency instead of believing God.
If there is an original sin it is to not believe in God to the extent we know Him.
 
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The Righterzpen

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@Dave L - I was thinking yesterday of all these aspects of Jesus that are different than us; that are rather fascinating. And how these things related to the psyche of Jesus's personality.

Heathen dogs?

The end of Matthew 12, we have: "Your mother and brothers are outside and want to speak to you...." (Obviously talking about biological relatives.) Jesus's response is that the people who do the will of the Father are His mother and brothers. Which is contextually interesting to the event; and you'll see that in a minute.

This situation of them coming to get Jesus, is on the end of an interchange between Jesus and pharisees where He calls them a bunch of vipers. And just prior to this Jesus was in hiding, yet healing gentiles because the pharisees were plotting to kill Him.

There is another record of the same type of thing happening in Mark 3. Same scenario; yet are they the same events in the same time frame? I'm not sure; could be? That's another thing I've found about looking at events in the New Testament. A lot of events themselves are repeated. (More than one woman with an issue of blood came to Jesus. More than one centurion came to Jesus - etc.) The account in Mark says His family (friends / fellow kinsmen = maybe people from Nazareth) come because they'd stated: He's "lost his mind".

Now I looked this up in the Greek and I don't believe they thought Jesus was literally "mentally ill". Calling out the establishment the way He did was "an insane thing to do"; and that's why they were looking to "take (Him) by force".

Ironically though; in the "political sense" Jesus was probably "safer" among the people who were hiding Him (who were gentiles) than He would have been among other Jews. Matter of fact; in order to protect Him from the "political power" those of the "religious establishment" possessed, those hiding Jesus would have to have involved Roman military people, because they were the only ones in the jurisdiction that "ranked above" the pharisees.

So in this instance; Jesus was in Rome's version of "witness protection". LOL

And here's where it "gets better". He's healing all these gentiles, who are actually protecting Him from His own people. And He says to He Jewish countrymen / family that those who do the will of the Father are His real mother and brothers. (Which in direct reference to this event has to do with these gentiles.) And them coming from this Jewish ethnocentric mindset (they all hated the Greeks and the Romans); Yeah, Jesus is .... nuckin' futz (to use a vernacular euphemism).

Yet, note the consistency of Jesus's "attitude". This is the one thing I find so fascinating about His interactions with people. He's like "Messiah with Aspergers = no filters" What He's thinking comes right out of His mouth! Which if you read through the gospels; it's obvious that Jesus's style of interacting, socially didn't sit well with "polite society".

Jesus You "anti-Semite" YOU!

And here's the "juxtapose" "culturally" to the gentiles in these passages; Luke 7! (Now I figured this out by looking really carefully at the Greek.) Here is "Simon the pharisee". He invites Jesus to eat and in comes this "sinful woman" who cries all over Jesus's feet, dries them with her hair and anoints them with oil. Simon makes this assertion in his own mind that if Jesus really were a prophet; He'd "know who and what manner of woman this is that touches (Greek word actually means "fondle" - with intent to sexually seduce) him; for she is a sinner."

Now here's where this gets really creepy! Who is this woman and why does Simon know these things? Scripture later identifies her as Mary the sister of Martha and Lazarus.

Now the Greek in Luke 7; denotes that she anoints Jesus's feet with this jar of perfume that has been "received back to her" (by implication) in return for her doing this. Now the implication is that this jar of perfume once belonged to her and now it's "received back to her" from Simon the pharisee. Another interesting detail about this event. I believe this is couched within the context of the Greek of the last verse of this chapter. Everyone who is present in Simon's house here, are his family members!

So.... who is this "sinful woman" who has "received back to her" this jar of perfume from Simon the pharisee? She is probably his niece and these things he's taken from her, would have been part of her dowery. Martha is the oldest; who was likely married prior; now living in Bethany. Mary is probably the next born and Lazarus is probably the youngest. So what probably happened is that after Martha was married; their father died and then "creepy uncle Simon the pharisee" becomes the "guardian" of the two younger children. Note Simon and the "sinful woman" live in the same city.

So now the situation appears that Mary and Lazarus's dad (who would have been a widower) dies and these two children are left in the custody of Simon. Simon has likely "defiled" his own niece and "pimps" her out in the community and here is how she's gotten this "sinful woman" reputation. She's basically a human trafficking victim. These people are sick!

So in enters into the public life of this community this preacher named Jesus. What does Mary know of Him? Has she listened to Him preach, seen Him heal people, witnessed Him interact with gentiles? Who knows? We know she knows who Jesus is.

So, Simon sets her up to do this. She's suppose to seduce Jesus. She gets there and comes unglued and the "best" she can do is cry all over His feet. So in response (interestingly) not to her first (who's doing this stuff to Jesus) but to Simon; Jesus poses this parable about the debtors.

Here's another interesting nuance; the language of the parable. Jesus makes a comparison between those who love little, those who love much and of he who loves little, lesser is forgiven. Then He turns to Mary and pointedly makes the statement "Your sins are forgiven." Which is response to Simon, implying that his are not. Yet now who is the "loves less, lesser is forgiven"? If these are only family members of Simon's present; is Lazarus there? (Thus is the most likely scenario because we know Lazarus was forgiven; and we also know God does not forgive the unrepentant!)

Mary and Jesus's feet?

So later on, just before Passover, Mary does this again. (John 12) and this is where the Scripture identifies her as the woman who'd done this before. So... what's up with her and His feet?

And the answer to that; I think is a cultural thing going back to Ruth and Boaz. So what did Ruth do? She lays down at Boaz's feet and uncovers them as a "self offering" of "take me".

Now if you go back to Exodus 22:16 the stipulation for non-espoused people having sex was that they were to get married. (If they refused marriage then they were to be stoned as "fornicators".) Paul references this in 1 Corinthians 7, speaking of the "virgin passed the flower of her age" and now "necessity requires" "let them marry". That's hearkening back to this law in Exodus. There is a similar passage in Deuteronomy 22 that people often accuse as talking about a rape victim marrying a rapist but that's not what that passage is talking about. It is talking about "unmarried" or "premarital" sex though. (Joseph was culturally "accused" of "premarital" sex (as Mary was pregnant) even though they were engaged.)

So my assertion of Mary's motive is: I want to be married and I want you (Jesus) to take care of me. (Get me out of this situation.) Now if she'd actually gotten Jesus to do what all those involved intended; He would have been obligated by Mosaic law to marry her. (The town prostitute! - This idea would have also fallen in line with Hosea (who was a prophet) and Gomer his prostitute wife.) So the idea was not "outside Scriptural context / law".

Now the thing that's most fascinating about this is Jesus's reactions to her. (Everyone else gets all over her case. The disciples yelled at her later on.) He doesn't tell her not to do any of these things and does not condemn her for her obvious affection. What kind of impact did this have on Him? We don't know. We do see that He's kind to her and is not repulsed by her interest in Him as displayed by her actions which likely had obvious cultural implication as understood by everyone around them.

Now in another place in the gospels (Matthew 19:12) Jesus actually explains why He never got married. And the almost comical thing about this passage is after He says this, all these parents start brining Him children. (You want babies, here we bring you babies.) Jesus is hugging on all these kids. The disciples start yelling at the parents and Jesus gets @$%& off. Don't be chasing the children away!

Fascinating insight into Jesus's personal internal emotional workings about kids and families as it related contextually to His own circumstances. And compare this juxtaposed to the church over the centuries has miserably failed to effectively actually address the issue of human sexuality. The first command "Be fruitful and multiply" was a very present "inherent in the fabric of how creation was woven together" reality in what it means to be created life.

This impacted Jesus also and likely in ways that are far more profound than we understand. We have the Creator of life incarnated as a created entity whom by nature of what His Divine personhood was; (coupled with how He Himself designed life to multiply) obviously would have maintained the desire to create more life. Yet if one puts the concepts of Jesus and "multiply" in the same sentence; "religious folk" tend to "flip out" about it.

Yet they accused Jesus of being a drunk and a glutton!

Gives a very interesting perspective on how far from God our perceptions of "holiness" are.

So, for what ever this thread has inspired my musings to be any value; LOL

There you go!

:swoon::swoon::swoon:
 
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coffee4u

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You are in denial LOL

Everyone here has there own unique take on this. Even what one person means when they say "original sin" is not the same as what another means by "original sin".

Disagreeing is fine but there is however no need to be offensive or toss around statements saying they take their doctrine from Rome when the other person has stated no.

Since I think my own take on it is similar to the person you accused of taking from Rome -because yes it was said as an accusation I also take offence at the idea that it's become of Rome or the Catholic church. (I assume when you say Rome you mean the Catholic church) I have no interest in the Catholic church, follow none of its doctrines and disagree with most of them.

Just because one church has a doctrine that is similar does not mean a person had to get their doctrine from them. It is not unique to them.

I am an Evangelical and all doctrine that I follow comes from the Bible. Evangelical Beliefs
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Everyone here has there own unique take on this. Even what one person means when they say "original sin" is not the same as what another means by "original sin".

Disagreeing is fine but there is however no need to be offensive or toss around statements saying they take their doctrine from Rome when the other person has stated no.

Since I think my own take on it is similar to the person you accused of taking from Rome -because yes it was said as an accusation I also take offence at the idea that it's become of Rome or the Catholic church. (I assume when you say Rome you mean the Catholic church) I have no interest in the Catholic church, follow none of its doctrines and disagree with most of them.

Just because one church has a doctrine that is similar does not mean a person had to get their doctrine from them. It is not unique to them.

I am an Evangelical and all doctrine that I follow comes from the Bible. Evangelical Beliefs
Well said!
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Everyone here has there own unique take on this. Even what one person means when they say "original sin" is not the same as what another means by "original sin".

Disagreeing is fine but there is however no need to be offensive or toss around statements saying they take their doctrine from Rome when the other person has stated no.

Since I think my own take on it is similar to the person you accused of taking from Rome -because yes it was said as an accusation I also take offence at the idea that it's become of Rome or the Catholic church. (I assume when you say Rome you mean the Catholic church) I have no interest in the Catholic church, follow none of its doctrines and disagree with most of them.

Just because one church has a doctrine that is similar does not mean a person had to get their doctrine from them. It is not unique to them.

I am an Evangelical and all doctrine that I follow comes from the Bible. Evangelical Beliefs

I am not the one being offensive. And where may I ask did you acquire the term "original sin" from? Do you celebrate Christmas?
 
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chevyontheriver

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Disagreeing is fine but there is however no need to be offensive or toss around statements saying they take their doctrine from Rome when the other person has stated no.

Since I think my own take on it is similar to the person you accused of taking from Rome -because yes it was said as an accusation I also take offence at the idea that it's become of Rome or the Catholic church. (I assume when you say Rome you mean the Catholic church) I have no interest in the Catholic church, follow none of its doctrines and disagree with most of them.
Saying that someone else has copied a doctrine from the Catholic Church seems to be an offensive accusation in these parts of Christian Forums. So much so that people feel they have to cover themselves by saying that they follow none of the doctrines of the Catholic Church. Pity.
 
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coffee4u

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I am not the one being offensive. And where may I ask did you acquire the term "original sin" from? Do you celebrate Christmas?

By original sin I mean the propensity to sin, the ability to be tempted from within ourselves.
I'm not saying that the label 'original sin' might not have come from the Catholic church, it probably did, but the word is in common usage now the same way many other words are. As to their doctrine on it I have no idea, I take it from what the Bible says in Genesis and Romans. I believe Adam was sinless until he fell and I believe this brought in both spiritual as well as physical death. I believe this is what those passages of scripture teach. You are completely free to disagree but don't mistake what we are saying for regurgitated Catholic doctrine.

Yes, I do celebrate the birth of Christ and yes I know that Jesus was not born on the 25th. It's the common day to celebrate so changing that would be rather difficult. Would I rather the day be given a new name, one not coined by the Catholic church? Yes, very much so, along with Easter. The days of the week and the months of the year are also pagan in origin as are many other small facets of life. A person could drive themselves crazy over them all if they let it but then I see that as giving it power it does not have. I give no power to old pagan days or traditions for they are nothing. They are but chaff. I do not judge if someone feels differently and chooses not to celebrate.

Romans 14:14
14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.
 
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coffee4u

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Saying that someone else has copied a doctrine from the Catholic Church seems to be an offensive accusation in these parts of Christian Forums. So much so that people feel they have to cover themselves by saying that they follow none of the doctrines of the Catholic Church. Pity.

That is because most evangelicals or those of us who follow the Bible alone as the sole decider of doctrine do not agree with the Catholic church doctrines, often strongly so. This does not mean we hate Catholics just that we disagree with the teachings of your church.
 
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chevyontheriver

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That is because most evangelicals or those of us who follow the Bible alone as the sole decider of doctrine do not agree with the Catholic church doctrines, often strongly so. This does not mean we hate Catholics just that we disagree with the teachings of your church.
If you disagree with Catholic teaching, be sure you reject everything Catholic then, being very particular to hold to absolutely nothing Catholic. Or we could agree that some things the Catholic Church has taught from way way back are things evangelicals have not found reason to abandon. That may be too much to ask.
 
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miamited

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If you disagree with Catholic teaching, be sure you reject everything Catholic then, being very particular to hold to absolutely nothing Catholic. Or we could agree that some things the Catholic Church has taught from way way back are things evangelicals have not found reason to abandon. That may be too much to ask.

Hi chevy,

Just for the record, that is not a logical conclusion. Catholic doctrine is made up of several different and varying beliefs about what it means to honor God or to worship God or to be faithful to God. Because one may not agree with a dozen of 20 such doctrines, it does not logically follow that they then can't believe or follow the other eight. However, let's be clear that it isn't believed by non-catholics because the catholic fellowship teaches such things, but rather that their own faith and understanding of the Scriptures teaches and supports such things.

Example: I don't believe that Mary was some perpetual virgin, even though the catholic fellowship teaches such. However, I do believe that Jesus died for my sin. Not because the catholic fellowship teaches such a thing, but because I wholly believe that the Scriptures are clear in teaching that understanding. So, I do agree with one teaching of the catholic fellowship, and I don't have to throw that understanding out just because I claim not to have full faith in what the catholic fellowship teaches.

I imagine we can agree that 'some things' the catholic fellowships have taught from way back are things that evangelicals have not found reason to abandon. We could also agree that 'some things' the catholic fellowships have taught from way back are things that evangelicals have found reason to abandon.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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If you disagree with Catholic teaching, be sure you reject everything Catholic then, being very particular to hold to absolutely nothing Catholic. Or we could agree that some things the Catholic Church has taught from way way back are things evangelicals have not found reason to abandon. That may be too much to ask.

You seem to be taking this personally when it's not aimed at you. You are a Catholic, not the Catholic church. I haven't studied everything that the Catholic church teaches but there are a couple of major points that I strongly disagree with. Why must I disagree with everything?

This is a new trend I have noticed in the younger generation, disagree and it means you are 'hateful' or you are 'not holding to your side'. Utter nonsense. Moderation and agreeing to disagree these days seems to have gone out the window. Well, the world is not always so black and white but shades of grey depending on the topic.
 
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