The Fatal Flaw in Dispensationalism

owly · Dec 31, 2019

SovereignGrace,

I was thinking about your thoughts on the "with, and for" subject; how the Dispensational position puts a time split between. Brought to mind Hoekema's explanation of this in The Bible and The Future; him pulling similar word usage from the text where people go outside the city to welcome Christ coming in on a donkey then return with him into the city. You may have read it.

At least I thought it was interesting!

sovereigngrace · Dec 31, 2019

Guojing said:
During the Tribulation, the GOK will be preached once again.
Matthew 24:14

There is only one Gospel that has been preached from the beginning. The Old Testament Scriptures have predicted the Messiah from the Garden! The LORD said in Genesis 3:15: “I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.” The bruising of Satan’s head by Christ broke the power of sin over the penitent sinner. Jesus made a way of escape for us. He didn’t leave Adam and Eve – our first parents – naked, hopeless and condemned. No! But by a gracious act of mercy He created a way of escape.

Genesis 3:21 reveals, “Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.” The Lord removed their old tattered garments and gave them a divine covering. Here is the first blood sacrifice. Significantly it was made by Almighty God. This renewed them and brought them back into communion with God. They were new creatures.

Repeated Scripture shows the continuity between the old covenant Gospel message and the new covenant Gospel message. It also shows the harmony between the people of God in the Old Testament and the people of God in the New Testament.

1 Peter 4:4-6, “they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

Previous generations have heard the good news of the Lord Jesus Christ. Those that had eye to see embraced Him, those that were blind rejected Him. There is one Gospel that has gradually developed through clearer revelation. All the truth we find in the New Testament can normally be found in the Old Testament, albeit sometimes veiled. This not does in any way suggest 2 Gospels. There is only one Gospel, one faith, one overall covenant of grace, one election and one salvation.

Hebrews 3:17-19 4:1-2: “with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

The writer to the Hebrews is here showing us that the Gospel was indeed preached onto natural Israel in the Old Testament. This is the same Gospel that we have today. This Gospel produced the same fruit then, in those that got it, as it does in us today. Those who rejected that liberating message back then faced the same awful consequences as those who do the same today. The Gospel in essentially the good news of Jesus Christ. He is man’s only Savior. He is man’s only hope. The Old Testament saints looked forward by faith to His appearing. We today look back and rejoice in His appearing 2000 years ago.

The Old Testament sets forth a Gospel theme consistent with the New Testament that men were saved from sin by grace through saving faith in the Lord and His promises.

The Gospel message was a prophetic message predicting the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. Christ was the central focus of the Old Testament. His life, death and resurrection are man’s only hope – past, present and future.

sovereigngrace · Dec 31, 2019

Guojing said:
acts was a transitional period of time

The New Testament makes clear; there is only one elect people. There is only one good olive tree, not two; one body, not two; one bride, not two; one spiritual temple, not two; one people of God, not two; one household of faith, not two; one fold, not two; one man, not “twain,” and one elect of God throughout time.

Guojing · Dec 31, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
There is only one Gospel that has been preached from the beginning. The Old Testament Scriptures have predicted the Messiah from the Garden! The LORD said in Genesis 3:15: “I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.” The bruising of Satan’s head by Christ broke the power of sin over the penitent sinner. Jesus made a way of escape for us. He didn’t leave Adam and Eve – our first parents – naked, hopeless and condemned. No! But by a gracious act of mercy He created a way of escape.

Genesis 3:21 reveals, “Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.” The Lord removed their old tattered garments and gave them a divine covering. Here is the first blood sacrifice. Significantly it was made by Almighty God. This renewed them and brought them back into communion with God. They were new creatures.

Repeated Scripture shows the continuity between the old covenant Gospel message and the new covenant Gospel message. It also shows the harmony between the people of God in the Old Testament and the people of God in the New Testament.

1 Peter 4:4-6, “they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

Previous generations have heard the good news of the Lord Jesus Christ. Those that had eye to see embraced Him, those that were blind rejected Him. There is one Gospel that has gradually developed through clearer revelation. All the truth we find in the New Testament can normally be found in the Old Testament, albeit sometimes veiled. This not does in any way suggest 2 Gospels. There is only one Gospel, one faith, one overall covenant of grace, one election and one salvation.

Hebrews 3:17-19 4:1-2: “with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

The writer to the Hebrews is here showing us that the Gospel was indeed preached onto natural Israel in the Old Testament. This is the same Gospel that we have today. This Gospel produced the same fruit then, in those that got it, as it does in us today. Those who rejected that liberating message back then faced the same awful consequences as those who do the same today. The Gospel in essentially the good news of Jesus Christ. He is man’s only Savior. He is man’s only hope. The Old Testament saints looked forward by faith to His appearing. We today look back and rejoice in His appearing 2000 years ago.

The Old Testament sets forth a Gospel theme consistent with the New Testament that men were saved from sin by grace through saving faith in the Lord and His promises.

The Gospel message was a prophetic message predicting the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. Christ was the central focus of the Old Testament. His life, death and resurrection are man’s only hope – past, present and future.

I have already gone thru this extensively in this thread with others so no need to repeat again.

sovereigngrace · Dec 31, 2019

Guojing said:
I have already gone thru this extensively in this thread with others so no need to repeat again.

The Scriptures I presented forbid your premise.

There is not going to be an earthly political kingdom of God after the rapture. That is a Jewish fable that the Pharisees bought into and caused them to miss their Messiah and the spiritual kingdom. Pretribs make the same mistake.

Many Christians, who call themselves Premillennialists, deny that Jesus is presently reigning as king over His kingdom. They do this by ignoring the clear and repeated teachings in Scripture. They also do this because they have a faulty concept of the kingdom of God. They anticipate a Pharisaical-type-kingdom with Christ supposedly reigning on earth over a temporal Jewish kingdom, in which the Gentiles take a backseat. They imagine that this earthly kingdom will last for 1000 years+. They try to portray it as some type of heaven-on-earth, with historic peace, when in fact, it ends up one almighty debacle, with the greatest uprising of wicked men against Christ and His people in history. Unfortunately, they make the exact same mistake as the Pharisees did, who expected a visible, physical, temporal, earthly kingdom, when, in fact, Christ brought a spiritual, heavenly, eternal kingdom that could not be viewed with the naked eye.

Jesus said in John 18:36, “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”

Christ couldn't have made it clearer. This expectation – of a literal visible territorial political kingdom – was wrong. It exposed the ignorance which controlled the Jews. They had a defective perception of the nature of God’s kingdom and the manner in which it would appear.

Messiah would come and reveal true righteousness and divine authority, although it would be in a completely different way to what Israel expected. The kingdom of God, which Christ continually spoke of, did not relate to a physical Jewish kingdom that could be viewed with human sight. It did not relate to individual Gentile nations. Luke 17:20-21 records an interesting discourse between Christ and the Pharisees on the subject of the kingdom of God, saying, He was “demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come.”

Christ replied, “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within (entos) you.”

The Lord revealed in this passage that the kingdom of God – His kingdom – was not a literal earthly domain neither could it be viewed like other kingdoms with their outward splendour, impressive power and magnitude. It was, rather, a spiritual kingdom, which could only be spiritually entered. Messiah had finally come to His people.

John Gill says of this passage, “it [the kingdom of God] reigns, through righteousness, unto eternal life; and by it, Christ, as king of saints, dwells and reigns in his people. Now this is not to be understood of the Scribes and Pharisees, as if they had any such internal principle in them, who were as painted sepulchres, and had nothing but rottenness and corruption in them.”

When Christ appeared at His first advent, many religious Jews imagined He would reinstate the then defunct earthly throne of Israel and reign victorious over the physical nation of Israel. They believed that the appearance of Messiah would usher in a period of physical and spiritual bliss for Israel in which their enemies would be totally destroyed. The Jewish expectation was a literal visible territorial kingdom of which the Messiah – the King – would rule over. They believed He would immediately destroy every enemy that withstood the house of Israel. Their wrong thinking was guided by a hyper-literalist interpretation of OT Messianic prophecies. These Christ confronted and exposed in His teaching.

Premillennialists are constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high. Whether they mean to or not, Premils are always highlighting what Satan is doing in our day instead of what Christ is doing. Premil portrays a BIG devil and a small god; Scripture presents a small devil and a BIG God. In Premil, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed. Premils are always lauding the ability of Satan since the cross. In Scripture, Christ is sovereign and Satan is curtailed. Scripture is always lauding the ability of Christ since the cross. As a consequence, Premil portrays an impotent beat-down New Testament Church, whereas Scripture sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ and subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so. In Scripture Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Savior.

It is hard to watch Christians undermine the omnipotence of Christ. They deny Christ is reigning today as King of kings and Lord of lords. They deny Christ is reigning over all creation. They deny Christ is reigning over His enemies as conquering king. They have Christ operating in a vacuum as some impotent want-to-be ruler. They deny that He is sitting upon David’s throne as Israel’s Messiah. They depict Him as some kind of Prince-in-waiting desperately hoping to rule. As we have seen, that is not what Scripture depicts.

Premillennialists, believe that Christ will set up an earthly kingdom, which will be concentrated on the actual city of Jerusalem. They believe that it is only at this stage that He will finally reign over His enemies and rule over the nations. However, Christ is not coming to reign over His enemies; He is coming to destroy them.

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22, “if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

What Jesus was saying here is that his ministry was proof that the kingdom of God had arrived.

Here, Christ highlights the Sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. The devil overwhelmingly controlled the Gentile nations.

jerry kelso · Dec 31, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
The New Testament makes clear; there is only one elect people. There is only one good olive tree, not two; one body, not two; one bride, not two; one spiritual temple, not two; one people of God, not two; one household of faith, not two; one fold, not two; one man, not “twain,” and one elect of God throughout time.

sovereigngrace,

1. There is one body of Christ present day church of Jews and gentiles Ephesians 2:14-15 one Bride of Christ to come which is the Holy City made up of Old and New Testament and tribulation saints Revelation 21
There is one man the present day church of Jews and gentiles Ephesians 2:14-15
There is one spiritual temple, one people of God spiritually and one good olive tree Romans 11 spiritually. One household of faith referenced to the present day church.
There are two different folds, one called Israel and the other called Judah Ezekiel 37:16-28. Both are physical Israel only who will be spiritual in the future. There posterity will live in their home country the nation of Israel.
There are the Jewish elect remnant of grace Romans 11:4.
The present day church is never called a remnant.

2. Have you not read these scriptures before? Or are you going to avoid the proper context? Or are you going to throw them all in one pot of generalization and say the distinctions are not important. This is what you do with the subject of the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God. Jerry Kelso

sovereigngrace · Dec 31, 2019

jerry kelso said:
sovereigngrace,

There is one body of Christ present day church of Jews and gentiles Ephesians 2:14-15 one Bride of Christ to come which is the Holy City made up of Old and New Testament and tribulation saints Revelation 21
There is one man the present day church of Jews and gentiles.
There is one spiritual temple, one good olive tree.
There are two different folds, one called Israel and the other called Judah Ezekiel 37:16-28.
There are the Jewish elect remnant of grace Romans 11:4.
The nt day church is never called a remnantvb

True remnant Israel did not go away. It recognized Israel’s Messiah and embraced Him as Lord. That spiritual company coalesced around John the Baptist. The prophet was called to be the forerunner of Christ. He introduced Him to Israel. His direct preaching separated that which was counterfeit from that which was real. He caused a dividing of the people by only baptizing those Israelis who were willing to “bring forth … fruits meet for repentance.” (Matthew 3:8). Ben F Meyer writes: “The mission of the Baptist belonged to a scenario of fulfilment. His role was to assemble by baptism the remnant of Israel destined for cleansing and acquittal and so, climactically, for restoration” (The Judgment and Salvation of Israel).

After the cross, the congregation (or Church or ekklesia) of faithful old covenant Israel became the new covenant congregation (or Church or ekklesia). While overlapping two different eras, it was the exact same developing spiritual organism containing the exact same elect remnant, and more. The new spiritual community grew into a larger broader global entity. Steve Lehrer says about national Israel in the Old Testament: “They were always an unbelieving people as a whole (with a tiny remnant of believers always present). So, in one sense there never was a true people of God to ‘replace’, but there was an expectation of a true people of God that builds to a crescendo throughout the Old Testament and is finally satisfied in the New Testament. This true people of God actually love Him and are made up of Jews and Gentiles.”

Guojing · Dec 31, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
The Scriptures I presented forbid your premise.

There is not going to be an earthly political kingdom of God after the rapture. That is a Jewish fable that the Pharisees bought into and caused them to miss their Messiah and the spiritual kingdom. Pretribs make the same mistake.

Many Christians, who call themselves Premillennialists, deny that Jesus is presently reigning as king over His kingdom. They do this by ignoring the clear and repeated teachings in Scripture. They also do this because they have a faulty concept of the kingdom of God. They anticipate a Pharisaical-type-kingdom with Christ supposedly reigning on earth over a temporal Jewish kingdom, in which the Gentiles take a backseat. They imagine that this earthly kingdom will last for 1000 years+. They try to portray it as some type of heaven-on-earth, with historic peace, when in fact, it ends up one almighty debacle, with the greatest uprising of wicked men against Christ and His people in history. Unfortunately, they make the exact same mistake as the Pharisees did, who expected a visible, physical, temporal, earthly kingdom, when, in fact, Christ brought a spiritual, heavenly, eternal kingdom that could not be viewed with the naked eye.

Jesus said in John 18:36, “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”

Christ couldn't have made it clearer. This expectation – of a literal visible territorial political kingdom – was wrong. It exposed the ignorance which controlled the Jews. They had a defective perception of the nature of God’s kingdom and the manner in which it would appear.

Messiah would come and reveal true righteousness and divine authority, although it would be in a completely different way to what Israel expected. The kingdom of God, which Christ continually spoke of, did not relate to a physical Jewish kingdom that could be viewed with human sight. It did not relate to individual Gentile nations. Luke 17:20-21 records an interesting discourse between Christ and the Pharisees on the subject of the kingdom of God, saying, He was “demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come.”

Christ replied, “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within (entos) you.”

The Lord revealed in this passage that the kingdom of God – His kingdom – was not a literal earthly domain neither could it be viewed like other kingdoms with their outward splendour, impressive power and magnitude. It was, rather, a spiritual kingdom, which could only be spiritually entered. Messiah had finally come to His people.

John Gill says of this passage, “it [the kingdom of God] reigns, through righteousness, unto eternal life; and by it, Christ, as king of saints, dwells and reigns in his people. Now this is not to be understood of the Scribes and Pharisees, as if they had any such internal principle in them, who were as painted sepulchres, and had nothing but rottenness and corruption in them.”

When Christ appeared at His first advent, many religious Jews imagined He would reinstate the then defunct earthly throne of Israel and reign victorious over the physical nation of Israel. They believed that the appearance of Messiah would usher in a period of physical and spiritual bliss for Israel in which their enemies would be totally destroyed. The Jewish expectation was a literal visible territorial kingdom of which the Messiah – the King – would rule over. They believed He would immediately destroy every enemy that withstood the house of Israel. Their wrong thinking was guided by a hyper-literalist interpretation of OT Messianic prophecies. These Christ confronted and exposed in His teaching.

Premillennialists are constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high. Whether they mean to or not, Premils are always highlighting what Satan is doing in our day instead of what Christ is doing. Premil portrays a BIG devil and a small god; Scripture presents a small devil and a BIG God. In Premil, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed. Premils are always lauding the ability of Satan since the cross. In Scripture, Christ is sovereign and Satan is curtailed. Scripture is always lauding the ability of Christ since the cross. As a consequence, Premil portrays an impotent beat-down New Testament Church, whereas Scripture sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ and subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so. In Scripture Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Savior.

It is hard to watch Christians undermine the omnipotence of Christ. They deny Christ is reigning today as King of kings and Lord of lords. They deny Christ is reigning over all creation. They deny Christ is reigning over His enemies as conquering king. They have Christ operating in a vacuum as some impotent want-to-be ruler. They deny that He is sitting upon David’s throne as Israel’s Messiah. They depict Him as some kind of Prince-in-waiting desperately hoping to rule. As we have seen, that is not what Scripture depicts.

Premillennialists, believe that Christ will set up an earthly kingdom, which will be concentrated on the actual city of Jerusalem. They believe that it is only at this stage that He will finally reign over His enemies and rule over the nations. However, Christ is not coming to reign over His enemies; He is coming to destroy them.

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22, “if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

What Jesus was saying here is that his ministry was proof that the kingdom of God had arrived.

Here, Christ highlights the Sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. The devil overwhelmingly controlled the Gentile nations.

Until there is a literal wolf at peace with a lamb (Isaiah 11:6), the kingdom of God has not arrived yet.

You are free to spiritualize that promise if you prefer.

jerry kelso · Dec 31, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
True remnant Israel did not therefore go away. It recognized Israel’s Messiah and embraced Him as Lord. That spiritual company coalesced around John the Baptist. The prophet was called to be the forerunner of Christ. He introduced Him to Israel. His direct preaching separated that which was counterfeit from that which was real. He caused a dividing of the people by only baptizing those Israelis who were willing to “bring forth … fruits meet for repentance.” (Matthew 3:8). Ben F Meyer writes: “The mission of the Baptist belonged to a scenario of fulfilment. His role was to assemble by baptism the remnant of Israel destined for cleansing and acquittal and so, climactically, for restoration” (The Judgment and Salvation of Israel).

After the cross, the congregation (or Church or ekklesia) of faithful old covenant Israel became the new covenant congregation (or Church or ekklesia). While overlapping two different eras, it was the exact same developing spiritual organism containing the exact same elect remnant, and more. The new spiritual community grew into a larger broader global entity. Steve Lehrer says about national Israel in the Old Testament: “They were always an unbelieving people as a whole (with a tiny remnant of believers always present). So, in one sense there never was a true people of God to ‘replace’, but there was an expectation of a true people of God that builds to a crescendo throughout the Old Testament and is finally satisfied in the New Testament. This true people of God actually love Him and are made up of Jews and Gentiles.”

sovereigngrace,

1. John the Baptist; Luke 1:16-17: And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
John the Baptist was to prepared all of Israel for the Lord not just the remnant.

2. John the Baptist couldn’t bring the climatic restoration of physical Israel for the KoH reign according to the scripture.
This is why Meyers is wrong.
Jesus also came to seek and save that which was lost not just the remnant. Believing in him to forgive sins John 1:12 and they had to recognize him as the Messiah John 1:31 was the KoH message Isaiah 53; Matthew 4:17; 6:33; Luke 17:20-21.

3. Israel did fail more than not as evidenced in the nations that oppressed them.
But, for Lehrer to say that Israel was never a true people of God is not true for they were in Joshua’s day.
The KoH and the KoG message preached by John the Baptist and Jesus was rejected Matthew 23:37-39; John 1:11.
Herod beheaded John Matthew 14:1-12, and the nation crucified Christ Matthew 27:22, 25-26.

4. The KoH program was rejected and Jesus predicted the destruction of the temple which happened in 70 A.D. historically.
The KoH was finished as Jesus was saying in Acts 1:6-7.
Peter knew the signs of the KoH and mentioned some of them in Acts 2.
This is no proof that Israel had another chance at the KoH reign unless you want to reject Jesus words in Matthew 23:38-39; Behold your house is left unto you .
desolate.
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
There is nowhere in scripture that says the nation of Israel was going to come back to God in Christ ministry or the church era.
All Israel has to be a saved people in order to receive the KoH Romans 11:26.
The KoH reign cannot happen til Christ comes Revelation 19:11-20 and takes back the kingdoms of this world Revelation 11:15.

5. The reason for the Jewish remnant of grace in the Olive tree is so Israel would have a physical people of believers that would keep their seed going because the nation would be destroyed as a whole in 70 A.D.
1948 they came back as a nation. They are still backslid and will have a remnant Revelation 12:17 and the bulk of the nation who goes into the wilderness Revelation 12 to be preserved through the tribulation.

6. The church is not the sun clothed woman, it is Israel for it birthed the man child Revelation 12 which is Jewish and the remnant of her seed denotes a birth in v 17 and that is the Jewish remnant.
The church is never referenced as a man child or having to go through travail in the time of Jacob’s trouble or being preserved in the wilderness.
To use Revelation 12 as the church is to ignore the time factor for the book of Revelation Revelation 1:19.
To make Revelation 2-3 of the historical churches through the whole church age through the time of Jacob’s trouble doesn’t hold water because of Revelation 12.
This is why the a millennialist have to have the spiritual Jew theory to bolster this belief.

7. The KoH reign program was never preached to the gentiles.
The KoG was spiritual in Jesus ministry Matthew 6:33; Luke 17:20-21.
The KoG is spiritual today in the present body of Christ Romans 14:17; For the Kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.
The KoH is the physical earthly sphere
Daniel 7:27 that is a small part of the universal KOG.
It will be physical in the millennial kingdom Isaiah 66:7-14; Ezekiel 37-16-28; Matthew 8:11-12 as well as spiritual Isaiah 2:1-4; 9:6-7; Ezekiel 36:25-29; 37:16-28. Jerry Kelso

Dale · Dec 31, 2019

jerry kelso said:
davidkent,

1. The last day is an Old Testament doctrine of the resurrection that the Jews understood.
Hebrews 6:1-2: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgement.
These were Old Testament doctrines for Christ taught the law and had to fulfill the law Matthew 5:17-18; Galatians 4:4.
Those Jews were to not go back into Judaism because there was no salvation in Judaism. They were under pressure to fall away from the New Covenant.
V4 about impossible for those once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost etc. if they fall away they can’t be renewed to repentance again seeing they would crucify the son of God afresh and put him to an open shame.
The late Greek scholar Kenneth Weiss said this could not happen today.

2. As far as the resurrection of the dead at the last day if you read Revelation, the 1st resurrection are all tribulation saints who will died who didn’t take the mark Revelation 20:4-6.
They are the same as those who sang the song of Moses and the lamb which implies they are New Covenant Jews in Revelation 15:1-2. They will be a part of those who go to Heaven Revelation 19:7-10 and come back with the saints and Christ who comes to the battle of Armageddon Revelation 19:11-20.
This is not the rapture where the saints that are alive and remain on the earth are raptured to the air to be with the Lord and the dead saints who Christ will bring with him from Heaven. We will go back to Heaven and stay through the tribulation Revelation 4:1; 5:9-10; 11:18; 19:7-10.

3. When Christ comes back at the 2nd advent he comes to take the kingdoms of the world Revelation 11:15 and set up His millennial kingdom for he will be the King over all the earth Zechariah 14:9.
They are two separate comings. Jerry Kelso

Jerry Kelso on the Second Coming: "They are two separate comings."

Dispensationalists make everything more complicated than it needs to be.

Just look at the Parable of the Weeds in Matthew. From the KJV or RSV you may know this as the Parable of the Wheat and Tares. If the Dispensationalists were right, Christ would fly over and collect the wheat, then let the weeds, or tares, grow for another seven years before they are taken by destroying angels. We all know this isn't how it is done. When a farmer harvests a field in the autumn, the crop is taken in and the weeds, or refuse, is burned immediately. There is no gap in time.

If you go by the wording of the parable, Jesus first refers to the burning of the weeds and then, second, tells us that the wheat will be gathered safely into the barn. It is clear that the weeds or tares are the wicked or the unsaved, and they do not run riot for some extended period of time after the valuable wheat is gathered in.

The Parable of the Weeds
24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
Matthew 13: 24-30 NIV

jerry kelso · Dec 31, 2019

Dale said:
Jerry Kelso on the Second Coming: "They are two separate comings."

Dispensationalists make everything more complicated than it needs to be.

Just look at the Parable of the Weeds in Matthew. From the KJV or RSV you may know this as the Parable of the Wheat and Tares. If the Dispensationalists were right, Christ would fly over and collect the wheat, then let the weeds, or tares, grow for another seven years before they are taken by destroying angels. We all know this isn't how it is done. When a farmer harvests a field in the autumn, the crop is taken in and the weeds, or refuse, is burned immediately. There is no gap in time.

If you go by the wording of the parable, Jesus first refers to the burning of the weeds and then, second, tells us that the wheat will be gathered safely into the barn. It is clear that the weeds or tares are the wicked or the unsaved, and they do not run riot for some extended period of time after the valuable wheat is gathered in.

The Parable of the Weeds
24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
Matthew 13: 24-30 NIV

dale,

1. Separation of the tares and wheat is not a coming.

2. The Jewish elect will be the wheat gathered Matthew 24:33 from the 4 winds of Heaven which is actually the earth the same as Revelation 7:1.

3. The last day in John 11:24 was an Old Testament doctrine for the Jewish nation not the church in this passage Hebrews 6:1-2 shows it was not for the church which I haven’t got time to go through.
However, in Revelation 15:1-2 are the last martyrs in the tribulation who sing the song of Moses and the Lamb who are Jewish and don’t take the mark of the beast which is the same company in the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6.
There are no living believers in this part of the 1st resurrection which is another part I don’t have time to explain tonight.
Jerry Kelso

sovereigngrace · Dec 31, 2019

jerry kelso said:
sovereigngrace,

1. John the Baptist; Luke 1:16-17: And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
John the Baptist was to prepared all of Israel for the Lord not just the remnant.

I have already showed you that the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are the same. You totally ducked around the evidecne, once again. I will try again to get through to you.

An elementary comparison between the two in the New Testament will show that “the kingdom of heaven” and “the kingdom of God” are just similar expressions to describe the one same Kingdom.

The term “the kingdom of God” refers to the One from whom it originates, whereas, the term “the kingdom of heaven” describes the place where it is centred. Notwithstanding, they both unequivocally allude to the one glorious eternal kingdom and Almighty God who sovereignly reigns from heaven. The evidence to back up such a supposition is absolute, and can be supported by a wealth of proof in the Gospels. These terms being frequently used and interchanged in (1) the same reference, (2) similar references, and (3) identical references, to describe this Divine spiritual Kingdom.

1. The same passage

Matthew records Christ using both terms in the one passage when describing His Kingdom: “Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God” (19:23-24).

These two terms are here used in the same context to describe the same kingly realm. The subject of this reading is the difficulty that the rich have in entering the kingdom of heaven (the kingdom of God). Anyone trying to base a theology on the difference between the two synonymous terms is strongly rebutted by this clear reading.

2. Similar passages

Alluding to the simplicity of the faith, Christ made similar statements, whilst in different circumstances, to explain the same eternal kingdom. Once again, He interchanges the terms ‘the kingdom of God’ and ‘the kingdom of heaven’ to describe His everlasting spiritual Kingdom.

(a) In Matthew 18:1-4, Christ is seen rebuking the disciples who were foolishly debating who were the greatest among them. In verse 2, and in response to their dispute, we see Christ calling “a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them.”

The Master then said, “Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.”

In a similar passage in Mark 10:15, Christ refers to the kingdom whilst once again rebuking the disciples, only this time it was for trying to stop the little children coming unto Himself. Only, in this encounter, He employs the matching term ‘the kingdom of God’, saying, “Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.”

The circumstances may have been slightly different yet the message was still the same. Nowhere in Christ teaching is there the slightest licence to make any distinction between these terms. Again we find the kingdom of God to be synonymous with the kingdom of heaven!

(b) Christ, teaching on the parable of the sower declares, in Matthew 13:24-26, 30, “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.” Christ concluded, “Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

In a similar, yet distinct passage, in Mark 4:25-29, Christ taught the disciples of the natural law of the harvest, saying, “he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath. And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground; And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how. For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear. But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.”

3. Parallel passages

This teaching is completely exposed by analysing, and comparing, the apostles record of the very same teaching on the very same occasion. There, the apostles testimony of the corresponding instances and same utterances of the Saviour are interchanged between the term “the kingdom of heaven” and the term “the kingdom of God.” Thus, clearly showing that the two terms are synonymous.

The following are some examples.

Example A

We see in different places that the kingdom is said to be “at hand.”

Matthew 4:12, 17 records, “Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee…From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Mark 1:14-15 records, “Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand.”

Again, the terms ‘kingdom of God’ and ‘kingdom of heaven’ are interchanged in these passages while describing the one spiritual kingdom.

Example B

Jesus said, in Matthew 11:12, “And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven ‘suffereth violence’ (or biazo), and the violent take it by force.”

Jesus said, in Luke 16:16, “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man ‘presseth’ (or biazetai – or suffereth violence) into it.”

Example C

Matthew 10:5-14 records the disciples commission, “These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them…as ye go, preach, saying, the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.”

Luke 9:1-6 records, “Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.”

Example D

After expounding the parable of the sower, the twelve disciples asked Christ why He explained His teaching in parables. Matthew and Mark then record the Lord’s response.

Jesus said, in Matthew 13:11, “it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.”

Jesus said, in Mark 4:11, “Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God.”

Example E

Matthew’s account of the beatitudes in 5:3-6, records Jesus saying, “Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.”

Luke’s account of Christ’s sermon, in Luke 6:20-21, records, “Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.”

Example F

Jesus said, in Matthew 13:31, “the kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field.”

Jesus said, in Mark 4:30-31, “Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth.”

Example G

Jesus said, in Matthew 13:33, “the kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.”

Jesus said, in Luke 13:20-21, “Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.”

Example H

Whilst we have previously quoted similar incidents where Christ advanced the same teaching on the subject of children and the kingdom (proving how the two terms are interchangeable), the following quotes are made of the same occasion.

Jesus said in Matthew 19:14, “Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”

Jesus said in Mark 10:14, “Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.”

Example I

Speaking of the future consummation of the Kingdom, Jesus said, in Matthew 8:11, “And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.”

Luke’s account, in chapter 13:28-29, records, “ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.”

CONCLUSION

It is plain to see from comparing these parallel accounts in the gospels that “the kingdom of heaven” and “the kingdom of God” are the same. In these phrases, the word heaven is a metonym for God. A metonymy is a figure of speech in which one word or phrase is substituted for another with which it is closely associated.

Dale · Dec 31, 2019

jerry kelso said:
sovereigngrace,

1. The word church and churches is only mentioned in Revelation 1-3.
It was addressed historically to the 7 churches of Asia.
Revelation is a prophetic book too Revelation 1:3.
The main theme of the churches is overcoming tribulation by being faithful.
The prize is things that are connected to the Pre-Trib rapture such as receiving a crown of life Revelation 2:10; eating of the hidden man, giving a white stone and a stone with a new name written which no man knowers saving he that receives it.
The millennial kingdom like eating of the tree of life in the midst of the paradise of God Revelation 2:7.
Power over the nations Revelation 2:26-27.
When the Holy City comes down Revelation 21:2, 10. after the making of the New Heaven and Earth after the millennial kingdom.
I have already explained Revelation 4:1; 5:9-10 which is right before the tribulation Revelation 6.

2. The saints, redeemed, my people, bridegroom and of the bride, they that do his commandments, faith, testimony, martyrs of Jesus, and the blessed dead in the tribulation on earth is not the church Revelation 6-19.
These are not the church on earth for the church is in Heaven Revelation 4:1; 5:9-10; before the tribulation, in the middle of the tribulation Revelation 11:18 receiving rewards in Heaven, and in Heaven at the end of the tribulation Revelation 19:1-10 until they go with Christ out of Heaven down to earth to the battle of Armageddon Revelation 19:11-20.

3. The problem is the failure in your post to show proper context.
You give scripture with similar terms or what may sound like popular terms for the church today but no context to prove that.
This is most likely the reason or because of whatever your overall outline of the tribulation.

4. Salvation will still be available when the church is gone because the Holy Spirit will be here all the time to draw men to Christ including the tribulation John 14:16; Acts 2:16-21 with Joel 2:28-29 etc.
Revelation 6 has martyrs; Revelation 7 has the great multitude in Heaven during the whole tribulation and is part of the first resurrection which contain the tribulation martyrs Revelation 6:9-11; 13:7;,15-18; 15:2-4; 17:6; 20:4.
Revelation 7:1-8 are the 144,000 Jews that are preserved through the trumpet judgements and raptured as the manchild Revelation 12:5 to Heaven as the first fruits of the tribulation Revelation 14:1-5.

5. The nation of Israel is in greater focus focus in the 2nd half of the tribulation which is the time of Jacob’s trouble Jeremiah 30:7-10; Daniel 12:1, Matthew 24:21; Revelation 11:1-2, 12; Ezekiel 37:16-28; Zechariah 14; Malachi 4:5.

6. Revelation 18:23 is not about the church of God today or the tribulation saints. Read Jeremiah 7:34; 16:19; 25:10-11. There is a double fulfillment once in the nations past and again in the future literal Babylon.
The voice of the the bridegroom and bride in Literal Babylon is about the mighty angel’s judgement on this city.
Revelation 18:4 are the Jews told to come out of her (literal Babylon) which is not the church age saints.

7. The blessed dead of Revelation 14:13 is not the church saints, they are the tribulation saints.
The last company of tribulation saints Revelation 15:1-2 that don’t take the mark of the beast that are in the first resurrection Revelation 20:4-6.
They sing the song of Moses and the Lamb which are Jewish martyr’s. This is before the 7 vials which is on the beast kingdom worshippers Revelation 16:1-2.
The church is not an earth participant in the tribulation and there is no earmarks of the church.
We are being trained right now for rulership training 2 Timothy 2:12.
Israel has to be purified and will be backslidden and have to have sins forgiven in order to fulfill their unconditional covenants 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-7; Romans 9:25-29. Jerry Kelso

Jerry Kelso: "Revelation 18:23 is not about the church of God today or the tribulation saints."

For once you are right. This passage, about the fall of Babylon, isn't about the church or about Christians, it is about economic and military collapse, the collapse of civilization. There will be no lamps because there is no oil, and no bride and groom because there will be no celebrations.

Jerry Kelso: "The saints, redeemed, my people, bridegroom and of the bride, they that do his commandments, faith, testimony, martyrs of Jesus, and the blessed dead in the tribulation on earth is not the church Revelation 6-19."

Being a Martyr to Jesus isn't enough to get you into the church? Boy, you have high standards for membership.

Jerry Kelso: "Salvation will still be available when the church is gone because the Holy Spirit will be here all the time to draw men to Christ including the tribulation John 14:16; Acts 2:16-21 with Joel 2:28-29 etc."

In the past, Dispensationalists have told me that the Holy Spirit will be absent in the Dispensation that follows the Rapture. I have argued that this is nonsensical. The Holy Spirit is omnipresent, after all, so the Holy Spirit cannot be absent. Apparently you don't agree that the Holy Spirit is gone but you say that the Church is gone and cannot be rekindled.

Where there are two believers in Jesus Christ, there is a church. That's why the Church is the Body of Christ, it is the visible presence of the Son on earth. Jesus promised us that He would never abandon those who "gather in my name." Where believers gather, the Son and the Holy Spirit are with them and that is a church.

[Jesus says,]
19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”
Matthew 18:19-20 NIV

sovereigngrace · Dec 31, 2019

jerry kelso said:
dale,

1. Separation of the tares and wheat is not a coming.

2. The Jewish elect will be the wheat gathered Matthew 24:33 from the 4 winds of Heaven which is actually the earth the same as Revelation 7:1.

3. The last day in John 11:24 was an Old Testament doctrine for the Jewish nation not the church in this passage Hebrews 6:1-2 shows it was not for the church which I haven’t got time to go through.
However, in Revelation 15:1-2 are the last martyrs in the tribulation who sing the song of Moses and the Lamb who are Jewish and don’t take the mark of the beast which is the same company in the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6.
There are no living believers in this part of the 1st resurrection which is another part I don’t have time to explain tonight.
Jerry Kelso

That is not true at all!

Who are the wheat and who are the tares in this parable? And, is there anyone excluded from the scope of these two inclusive groupings? Or, put another way; are there any in-betweens or semi-tares / semi-wheat that are omitted in their description? Firstly, the wheat and tares are a symbolic collective inclusive representation of all mankind; the wheat representing “the children of the kingdom” (Matthew 13:38) – those saved by God’s wonderful grace; the tares representing “the children of the wicked one” (Matthew 13:38) – those outside of grace and of God. The righteous in this story are notably planted of God; the tares on the other hand are planted of the “enemy” – the devil. In fact, Matthew 13:39 states, “The enemy that sowed them is the devil.” This again corroborates the view that we are viewing the only two sole peoples that Scripture recognises. Plainly, if one isn’t of the Lord then there are of the devil. There are no hybrids.

Here we see the final separation of the righteous and the wicked including the burning of those who practice lawlessness, and reward of those who belonged to Christ. Christ interchanges the phrases “the end of the world/age” and “the end of this world/age,” showing that the Coming of Christ is indeed the end. This is in contrast to the blessed future eternal “age to come.”

In the parable of the wheat and the tares, “the end of the world” is plainly identified with the Coming of the “Son of man” with all “his angels” to gather together “the righteous” unto Himself in order that they will finally “shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father” in their glorified state. This event also (significantly) simultaneously sees the uprooting of the tares (in total) to be finally and completely destroyed by casting them “into a furnace of fire.” It is at the Second Coming therefore that Christ “shall send forth his angels” to reap that one final all-consummating harvest. The phrase “end of the world” is the end of the aioonos or age. Both wheat and tares are collectively and wholly judged together at the end of this present Gospel age.

sovereigngrace · Dec 31, 2019

jerry kelso said:
sovereigngrace,

1. There is one body of Christ present day church of Jews and gentiles Ephesians 2:14-15 one Bride of Christ to come which is the Holy City made up of Old and New Testament and tribulation saints Revelation 21
There is one man the present day church of Jews and gentiles Ephesians 2:14-15
There is one spiritual temple, one people of God spiritually and one good olive tree Romans 11 spiritually. One household of faith referenced to the present day church.
There are two different folds, one called Israel and the other called Judah Ezekiel 37:16-28. Both are physical Israel only who will be spiritual in the future. There posterity will live in their home country the nation of Israel.
There are the Jewish elect remnant of grace Romans 11:4.
The present day church is never called a remnant.

2. Have you not read these scriptures before? Or are you going to avoid the proper context? Or are you going to throw them all in one pot of generalization and say the distinctions are not important. This is what you do with the subject of the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God. Jerry Kelso

There is only saved or lost today. No other people's.

jerry kelso · Dec 31, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
I have already showed you that the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are the same. You totally ducked around the evidecne, once again. I will try again to get through to you.

An elementary comparison between the two in the New Testament will show that “the kingdom of heaven” and “the kingdom of God” are just similar expressions to describe the one same Kingdom.

The term “the kingdom of God” refers to the One from whom it originates, whereas, the term “the kingdom of heaven” describes the place where it is centred. Notwithstanding, they both unequivocally allude to the one glorious eternal kingdom and Almighty God who sovereignly reigns from heaven. The evidence to back up such a supposition is absolute, and can be supported by a wealth of proof in the Gospels. These terms being frequently used and interchanged in (1) the same reference, (2) similar references, and (3) identical references, to describe this Divine spiritual Kingdom.

1. The same passage

Matthew records Christ using both terms in the one passage when describing His Kingdom: “Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God” (19:23-24).

These two terms are here used in the same context to describe the same kingly realm. The subject of this reading is the difficulty that the rich have in entering the kingdom of heaven (the kingdom of God). Anyone trying to base a theology on the difference between the two synonymous terms is strongly rebutted by this clear reading.

2. Similar passages

Alluding to the simplicity of the faith, Christ made similar statements, whilst in different circumstances, to explain the same eternal kingdom. Once again, He interchanges the terms ‘the kingdom of God’ and ‘the kingdom of heaven’ to describe His everlasting spiritual Kingdom.

(a) In Matthew 18:1-4, Christ is seen rebuking the disciples who were foolishly debating who were the greatest among them. In verse 2, and in response to their dispute, we see Christ calling “a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them.”

The Master then said, “Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.”

In a similar passage in Mark 10:15, Christ refers to the kingdom whilst once again rebuking the disciples, only this time it was for trying to stop the little children coming unto Himself. Only, in this encounter, He employs the matching term ‘the kingdom of God’, saying, “Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.”

The circumstances may have been slightly different yet the message was still the same. Nowhere in Christ teaching is there the slightest licence to make any distinction between these terms. Again we find the kingdom of God to be synonymous with the kingdom of heaven!

(b) Christ, teaching on the parable of the sower declares, in Matthew 13:24-26, 30, “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.” Christ concluded, “Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

In a similar, yet distinct passage, in Mark 4:25-29, Christ taught the disciples of the natural law of the harvest, saying, “he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath. And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground; And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how. For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear. But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.”

3. Parallel passages

This teaching is completely exposed by analysing, and comparing, the apostles record of the very same teaching on the very same occasion. There, the apostles testimony of the corresponding instances and same utterances of the Saviour are interchanged between the term “the kingdom of heaven” and the term “the kingdom of God.” Thus, clearly showing that the two terms are synonymous.

The following are some examples.

Example A

We see in different places that the kingdom is said to be “at hand.”

Matthew 4:12, 17 records, “Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee…From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Mark 1:14-15 records, “Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand.”

Again, the terms ‘kingdom of God’ and ‘kingdom of heaven’ are interchanged in these passages while describing the one spiritual kingdom.

Example B

Jesus said, in Matthew 11:12, “And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven ‘suffereth violence’ (or biazo), and the violent take it by force.”

Jesus said, in Luke 16:16, “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man ‘presseth’ (or biazetai – or suffereth violence) into it.”

Example C

Matthew 10:5-14 records the disciples commission, “These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them…as ye go, preach, saying, the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.”

Luke 9:1-6 records, “Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.”

Example D

After expounding the parable of the sower, the twelve disciples asked Christ why He explained His teaching in parables. Matthew and Mark then record the Lord’s response.

Jesus said, in Matthew 13:11, “it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.”

Jesus said, in Mark 4:11, “Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God.”

Example E

Matthew’s account of the beatitudes in 5:3-6, records Jesus saying, “Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.”

Luke’s account of Christ’s sermon, in Luke 6:20-21, records, “Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.”

Example F

Jesus said, in Matthew 13:31, “the kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field.”

Jesus said, in Mark 4:30-31, “Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth.”

Example G

Jesus said, in Matthew 13:33, “the kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.”

Jesus said, in Luke 13:20-21, “Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.”

Example H

Whilst we have previously quoted similar incidents where Christ advanced the same teaching on the subject of children and the kingdom (proving how the two terms are interchangeable), the following quotes are made of the same occasion.

Jesus said in Matthew 19:14, “Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”

Jesus said in Mark 10:14, “Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.”

Example I

Speaking of the future consummation of the Kingdom, Jesus said, in Matthew 8:11, “And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.”

Luke’s account, in chapter 13:28-29, records, “ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.”

CONCLUSION

It is plain to see from comparing these parallel accounts in the gospels that “the kingdom of heaven” and “the kingdom of God” are the same. In these phrases, the word heaven is a metonym for God. A metonymy is a figure of speech in which one word or phrase is substituted for another with which it is closely associated.

sovereigngrace,

1. I haven’t got time to answer your whole post but I can assure you are incorrect.
The reason you can’t understand what is going on in Jesus ministry is because you have a gentile mindset instead of understanding the Hebraic perspective.

2. David Stern the writer of the Jewish Bible maintains the KoG and I understand why.
However, he does admit to the distinctions of the KoH and the KoG.
It’s like covenant theology doesn’t believe in Dispensationalism but they admit God dealt with men in different ages in different ways and that there was a gradual revelation.
The problem with your interpretation and conversing is that you throw the baby out with the bath water and thus cut everybody off as never showing you any scriptural evidence etc.
I have to go to work in the morning so this will have to wait.
Needless to say you didn’t understand my post as usual. I don’t think you try to understand much of anybody’s post unless they agree with you. Jerry Kelso

Dale · Dec 31, 2019

jerry kelso said:
sovereigngrace,

1. Revelation 4:1; John is taken up into Heaven through an actual portal in Heaven when the church age is through.
Revelation 5:9-10; 11:18; 19:7-10 shows the church is in Heaven through the whole tribulation before they come out of Heaven with Christ the King of Kings and Lord of Lords to do battle at Armageddon Revelation 19:11-15. Jerry Kelso

Jerry Kelso: "Revelation 5:9-10; 11:18; 19:7-10 shows the church is in Heaven through the whole tribulation ..."

We know that there are many Christians in heaven. That doesn't prove there are no Christians on earth, or no church on earth, or any discontinuity in the presence of the church on earth.

Jerry Kelso: "Revelation 4:1; John is taken up into Heaven through an actual portal in Heaven when the church age is through."

I notice that this point has been discussed in a number of posts. You have exchanged views with Sovereign Grace on this subject. You should listen to what he is saying.

I don't know if John went to heaven or is he simply saw a vision, or a series of visions, that showed him what God wanted him to know. If John went to heaven, he went as a spirit.

One man going to heaven as a spirit, temporarily, is completely different from millions of Christians being bodily lifted into heaven as permanent residents. In fact, I'm having trouble seeing the connection. John isn't surrounded by members of the church when he sees this vision and no one visits heaven with him, when he goes as a spirit.

Part of the problem is that you believe that the Scripture has described Rapture in other places. Since you believe that Rapture is in the NT, then you have little trouble thinking that this passage somehow refers to it. The truth is that there is no Rapture (separate from the Second Coming) in the Bible.

sovereigngrace · Jan 1, 2020

jerry kelso said:
sovereigngrace,

1. I haven’t got time to answer your whole post but I can assure you are incorrect.
The reason you can’t understand what is going on in Jesus ministry is because you have a gentile mindset instead of understanding the Hebraic perspective.

2. David Stern the writer of the Jewish Bible maintains the KoG and I understand why.
However, he does admit to the distinctions of the KoH and the KoG.
It’s like covenant theology doesn’t believe in Dispensationalism but they admit God dealt with men in different ages in different ways and that there was a gradual revelation.
The problem with your interpretation and conversing is that you throw the baby out with the bath water and thus cut everybody off as never showing you any scriptural evidence etc.
I have to go to work in the morning so this will have to wait.
Needless to say you didn’t understand my post as usual. I don’t think you try to understand much of anybody’s post unless they agree with you. Jerry Kelso

There is no distinction. That is a Pretrib fable. There is only one kingdom. The kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises His Divine kingship, dominion and intimate rule. It includes heaven (and all those who are in heaven) – the place where with the kingdom is centered and administrated.

The kingdom of God exists wherever the king – the Lord Jesus Christ – exercises His spiritual jurisdiction. His kingdom embodies all those who possess the indwelling Holy Spirit – those who are born-again of the Spirit of God. Christ’s kingdom is therefore found wherever there are citizens of that Kingdom.

In John 3:3 Jesus declared: “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

And in John 3:5 He says, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

The penitent sinner spiritually enters into a spiritual kingdom upon conversion. Entering in to that spiritual kingdom in this life brings an immediate realization in the ‘here and now’ and on this earth of true “righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost” (Romans 14:17) and is decisively personal to the recipient. That means if you have given Christ kingship of your life then you are in the kingdom of God and the kingdom of God is in you! The King in God’s kingdom is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ. And since we got saved we are His subjects. The laws that govern Christ’s spiritual kingdom are found in this precious Book.

That means if you have given Christ kingship of your life then you are in the kingdom of God and the kingdom of God is in you!

Romans 14:17 sums it up like this: “For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink (or, the kingdom of God is not material things); but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.”

The kingdom is summed up in 3 words:

· righteousness
· peace
· joy

When you truly enter the kingdom of God on this earth you inherit: “righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.”

Here in this passage again we see that the kingdom of God is not a physical temporal kingdom that can be naturally observed or enjoyed but rather a spiritual kingdom, which is spiritually entered. The peace spoken of here is the peace that pertains to those saved by God’s Sovereign grace, and who belong to the spiritual kingdom of God. Not only would Messiah’s kingdom be characterized by peace, but He also would be “the prince of peace” (Isaiah 9:6). It was also not of this world – it was a heavenly kingdom.

Jesus declared in Matthew 6:31-34, “take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.”

Premils often make the same mistake as the Pharisees did in their interpretation of the Old Testament prophecies. They interpret the Old Testament references to the kingdom in a literal, physical, visible, earthly temporal sense, when Christ demonstrated their fulfilment in a literal, spiritual, invisible, heavenly eternal sense. Many Christians today, like many Jews before them, are mistakenly looking forward to a physical reign of Christ on this sin-cursed earth. Such people, who call themselves Premillennialists, believe that Christ will set up an earthly kingdom, which will be concentrated on the actual city of Jerusalem. They believe that it is only at this stage that He will finally reign over His enemies and rule over the nations. However, Christ is not coming to reign over His enemies; He is coming to destroy them.

Dale · Jan 1, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
I have already showed you that the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are the same. You totally ducked around the evidecne, once again. I will try again to get through to you.

An elementary comparison between the two in the New Testament will show that “the kingdom of heaven” and “the kingdom of God” are just similar expressions to describe the one same Kingdom.

The term “the kingdom of God” refers to the One from whom it originates, whereas, the term “the kingdom of heaven” describes the place where it is centred. Notwithstanding, they both unequivocally allude to the one glorious eternal kingdom and Almighty God who sovereignly reigns from heaven. The evidence to back up such a supposition is absolute, and can be supported by a wealth of proof in the Gospels. These terms being frequently used and interchanged in (1) the same reference, (2) similar references, and (3) identical references, to describe this Divine spiritual Kingdom.

1. The same passage

Matthew records Christ using both terms in the one passage when describing His Kingdom: “Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God” (19:23-24).

These two terms are here used in the same context to describe the same kingly realm. The subject of this reading is the difficulty that the rich have in entering the kingdom of heaven (the kingdom of God). Anyone trying to base a theology on the difference between the two synonymous terms is strongly rebutted by this clear reading.

2. Similar passages

Alluding to the simplicity of the faith, Christ made similar statements, whilst in different circumstances, to explain the same eternal kingdom. Once again, He interchanges the terms ‘the kingdom of God’ and ‘the kingdom of heaven’ to describe His everlasting spiritual Kingdom.

(a) In Matthew 18:1-4, Christ is seen rebuking the disciples who were foolishly debating who were the greatest among them. In verse 2, and in response to their dispute, we see Christ calling “a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them.”

The Master then said, “Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.”

In a similar passage in Mark 10:15, Christ refers to the kingdom whilst once again rebuking the disciples, only this time it was for trying to stop the little children coming unto Himself. Only, in this encounter, He employs the matching term ‘the kingdom of God’, saying, “Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.”

The circumstances may have been slightly different yet the message was still the same. Nowhere in Christ teaching is there the slightest licence to make any distinction between these terms. Again we find the kingdom of God to be synonymous with the kingdom of heaven!

(b) Christ, teaching on the parable of the sower declares, in Matthew 13:24-26, 30, “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.” Christ concluded, “Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

In a similar, yet distinct passage, in Mark 4:25-29, Christ taught the disciples of the natural law of the harvest, saying, “he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath. And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground; And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how. For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear. But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.”

3. Parallel passages

This teaching is completely exposed by analysing, and comparing, the apostles record of the very same teaching on the very same occasion. There, the apostles testimony of the corresponding instances and same utterances of the Saviour are interchanged between the term “the kingdom of heaven” and the term “the kingdom of God.” Thus, clearly showing that the two terms are synonymous.

The following are some examples.

Example A

We see in different places that the kingdom is said to be “at hand.”

Matthew 4:12, 17 records, “Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee…From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Mark 1:14-15 records, “Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand.”

Again, the terms ‘kingdom of God’ and ‘kingdom of heaven’ are interchanged in these passages while describing the one spiritual kingdom.

Example B

Jesus said, in Matthew 11:12, “And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven ‘suffereth violence’ (or biazo), and the violent take it by force.”

Jesus said, in Luke 16:16, “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man ‘presseth’ (or biazetai – or suffereth violence) into it.”

Example C

Matthew 10:5-14 records the disciples commission, “These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them…as ye go, preach, saying, the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.”

Luke 9:1-6 records, “Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.”

Example D

After expounding the parable of the sower, the twelve disciples asked Christ why He explained His teaching in parables. Matthew and Mark then record the Lord’s response.

Jesus said, in Matthew 13:11, “it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.”

Jesus said, in Mark 4:11, “Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God.”

Example E

Matthew’s account of the beatitudes in 5:3-6, records Jesus saying, “Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.”

Luke’s account of Christ’s sermon, in Luke 6:20-21, records, “Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.”

Example F

Jesus said, in Matthew 13:31, “the kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field.”

Jesus said, in Mark 4:30-31, “Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth.”

Example G

Jesus said, in Matthew 13:33, “the kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.”

Jesus said, in Luke 13:20-21, “Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.”

Example H

Whilst we have previously quoted similar incidents where Christ advanced the same teaching on the subject of children and the kingdom (proving how the two terms are interchangeable), the following quotes are made of the same occasion.

Jesus said in Matthew 19:14, “Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”

Jesus said in Mark 10:14, “Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.”

Example I

Speaking of the future consummation of the Kingdom, Jesus said, in Matthew 8:11, “And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.”

Luke’s account, in chapter 13:28-29, records, “ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.”

CONCLUSION

It is plain to see from comparing these parallel accounts in the gospels that “the kingdom of heaven” and “the kingdom of God” are the same. In these phrases, the word heaven is a metonym for God. A metonymy is a figure of speech in which one word or phrase is substituted for another with which it is closely associated.

Sovereign Grace: "I have already showed you that the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are the same."

100% correct. I was taught that the phrase "kingdom of heaven" originated because the Jews were reluctant to refer to God directly, fearing any hint of blasphemy or taking the name of God too lightly.

Sovereign Grace: "The term “the kingdom of God” refers to the One from whom it originates, whereas, the term “the kingdom of heaven” describes the place where it is centred."

Quite so. It makes no difference whether you say "the government of the United States" or "the government in Washington." They are the same.

Likewise, "the government of the United Kingdom" and "the government in London (or Westminster)" are the same.

Thanks for providing the examples.

sovereigngrace · Jan 1, 2020

Dale said:
Sovereign Grace: "I have already showed you that the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are the same."

100% correct. I was taught that the phrase "kingdom of heaven" originated because the Jews were reluctant to refer to God directly, fearing any hint of blasphemy or taking the name of God too lightly.

Sovereign Grace: "The term “the kingdom of God” refers to the One from whom it originates, whereas, the term “the kingdom of heaven” describes the place where it is centred."

Quite so. It makes no difference whether you say "the government of the United States" or "the government in Washington." They are the same.

Likewise, "the government of the United Kingdom" and "the government in London (or Westminster)" are the same.

Thanks for providing the examples.

Exactly! Thankfully, even many Dispies today have abandoned this error.

The Fatal Flaw in Dispensationalism

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Food For Thought

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Food For Thought

Senior Veteran

Food For Thought

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Food For Thought

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Similar threads