The Bible teaches that salvation comes with conditions.

Al Touthentop · Dec 31, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Which isn't what you think "repent" means.

It is what I think it means because they were pretty plain about it. It's not a mystery. You may not like that they taught that one had to repent of sin, but that's what they taught. It's also what John the baptist taught.

"Therefore, bear fruits worthy of repentance."

Then, Paul preached that same message to both Jews and Gentiles.

19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

Repent in this context means to turn from sin. Amazing too isn't it that Paul preaches that we must do works? It's all about context. What works? Those which God commanded, not works of the obsolete law of Moses and not works of yourselves, but the works which God prepared for us to walk in.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 31, 2019

Al Touthentop said:
He said those that follow him are the ones that he gives eternal life and he specifically said that those who don't follow him are NOT his sheep.

Not at all. The "them" in v.28 are recipients of eternal life. The "them" refers to the subjects of v.27, which are "My sheep". Not "My followers", as you would like.

Can't you see that v.27 is a description of what His sheep DO?? Why not?

Or, better, it's a policy statement of what His sheep OUGHT TO DO. Why can't you accept that very straightforward explanation.

Way to cherry pick and ignore context.

That's exactly what those who try to force v.27 into some kind of condition in order to never perish. Place the responsibility on the recipient to hear and follow.

Yet, that is a preposterous claim about v.27. Any English teacher worth his/her salt would FLUNK anyone who tried to make that claim re: v.27.

The ONLY condition for never perishing is found in v.28, and that is simply being given eternal life. And we know from many other verses HOW one receives the gift of eternal life; which is through faith.

But your theology forces individual behavior into the mix for being saved; listening and following. The Bible NEVER says such a thing. Quite the opposite.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

He spoke many words and some of those words included commands which we are required to obey.

Of course He did. He wants His sheep to follow Him. So, show me ANY verse that commands works from a sheep to be saved.

So this is not talking merely about thinking something in your head. It means to trust in those words and obey where it calls for obedience.

See?? You just cannot resist forcing human effort and works into the mix, can you.

People who only think things in their heads do not have everlasting life as James tells us.

Actually, James said nothing about eternal life. Which lousy commentator are you reading from?

But to get it, you have to do things and you have to ABIDE or REMAIN.

There you go again!! Adding human works or effort for salvation.

Please believe Rom 3:28 - For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

And pleasae don't patronize me by trying to argue that "the law" here is materially different than any command from the NT. It's all about human effort. And NONE of it will save anyone.

You have to believe ALL of the words he spoke, not just the ones you find convenient.

Don't patronize me. I do believe all the words in the Bible. What YOU need to do is understand them.

There is no such doctrine as once saved always saved in the bible.

This is delirious. Of course there is. Recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28. This is the most clear statement about eternal security in the Bible.

Where is this "once a son always a son" scripture?

Why do you think the Bible uses father-son language to describe the believer's relationship with Him?

Let me ask you: can you undo your physical birth? By that, I mean can you undo your parents? Or can they undo you?

Of course not. The parent-child RELATIONSHIP is PERMANENT.

So, you are the son of 2 people. Once a son, always a son.

If you want to argue that FACT, you are in deep trouble mentally.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 31, 2019

Alain Valdivia said:
By the way, before I get accused of being antinomian I want to say that I am far from saying that a person can be a true Christian and yet live in unrepentant sin.

To be clear, this is NOT being "antinomian". If you added that such a one can live that way without any consequences, then you'd be one.

The Bible is very clear that God disciplines His children. And His discipline is painful. Heb 12:11 says so.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 31, 2019

Al Touthentop said:
It is what I think it means because they were pretty plain about it. It's not a mystery. You may not like that they taught that one had to repent of sin, but that's what they taught. It's also what John the baptist taught.

You sorely misunderstand me. Of course they taught that one must repent of sin, but that doesn't mean to stop sinning to be saved. To repent of sin means to change your mind about what you are doing" and confess it for cleansing (1 John 1:9).

Unless one changes their mind about what sin is (which is what they are doing), they'll not confess it as sin, and therefore won't be cleansed of their sins.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 31, 2019

Alain Valdivia said:
Firstly, we must all agree, if we’re truly orthodox Christians, that we can’t be saved apart from the grace of God. Not even the Roman church would dare say that they can merit eternal life without the grace of God. If you can honestly say within yourself that salvation is possible apart from the grace of God then you are consenting to the Pelagian heresy and are considered a heretic by the Church universal and are outside of true Christendom.
Secondly, what exactly does it mean that we are saved by grace? Is there a cooperation needed between the believer and God? Well I would argue that being saved by grace simply means that we are saved not because of the righteousness we possess, but by the mercy and compassion of God.
Thirdly, it is important to note that the passages you brought out about the necessity of perseverance does not deny the reality of justification by grace alone. Although scripture does command us to persevere in the faith if we are to be saved yet this does not deny that we are solely saved by grace. For there are many passages that show that our perseverance is not in our own hands, but in the hands of God. He is the one that makes us persevere. “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.”‭‭, (Philippians‬ ‭1:6). “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.”, ‭‭(1 Thessalonians‬ ‭5:23-24‬). “Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.”‭‭, (1 Corinthians‬ ‭1:8-9‬). Notice how it’s God that does the persevering, not us. If we are left to our own free will we would run headlong into hell. St, Augustine says this, “A man’s free-will, indeed, avails for nothing except to sin, if he knows not the way of truth; and even after his duty and his proper aim shall begin to become known to him, unless he also take delight in and feel a love for it, he neither does his duty, nor sets about it, nor lives rightly. Now, in order that such a course may engage our affections, God’s “love is shed abroad in our hearts,” not through the free-will which arises from ourselves, but “through the Holy Ghost, which is given to us.” Thus, the only possible way we can even begin to do good and act righteously is if we first have grace in our souls and are justified.
Fourth, yes there are passages that point to our works as conditions for eternal life. Instead of me putting them all here I’ll instead provide you the verses: Matthew 5:20, 6:14-15, 25:31-46, John 5:29, Romans 2:6-7, James 2:24. Yet I would still argue that this does not deny that we are saved by grace. For even our good works are a gift of God. And as Augustine also says, that when God rewards our good works He is in reality crowning His own works. Therefore, the righteousness (Mat 5:20), love (Mat 6:14-15), and good works (James 2:24) that we have are a gift of God and has no root in ourselves. Take the words of Christ seriously when He says “without me you can do nothing.” (John 15:5).
Fifthly, as to faith alone, we need to realize that faith is what justifies and saves us because of many scriptures (Rom 3:21-28, 4:5, Gal 2:16, etc). The righteousness which we possess even as a gift of God does not make us any more worthy of eternal life. We are all debtors to mercy and grace alone. And if a man says that he can keep the whole law apart from the grace of God, he is damning himself because “by the works of the Law no man shall be justified.” (Rom 3:20).

“How can ye hope, deluded souls,
To see what non e’er saw,
Salvation by works obtained
Of Sinai’s fiery law.

There ye may toil, and weep, and fast,
And vex your heart with pain;
And, when you’ve ended, find at last
That all your toil was vain.

That law but makes your guilt abound;
Sad help! And (what is worst)
All souls that under that cloud are found,
By God himself are cursed

This curse pertains to those who break
One precept, e’er so small;
And where’s the man, in thought or deed,
That has not broken all?

Fly, then, awakened sinners, fly;
Your case admits no stay;
The fountain’s opened now for sin;
Come, wash your guilt away

See how from Jesus’ wounded side
The water flows and blood!
If you but touch that purple tide,
You then have peace with God.

Only by faith in Jesus’ wounds
The sinner finds release;
No other sacrifice for sin
Will God accept but this.”

I believe we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and in seeking His forgiveness believing that He died, was buried, and was risen from the grave on our behalf for salvation. But the next step or stage in the salvation process is Sanctification and or living holy by the working of God within us. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

Alain Valdivia · Dec 31, 2019

I must say this because I see both errors in this thread. Yes we can lose our state of justification. The Church has always taught that until the time of the Protestant Reformation where John Calvin came along. For 1500 years the Universal Church always taught that one can lose their salvation. A very clear scripture I see is Galatians 5:4 which says this, “You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.” A question to be asked is how can someone be severed from Christ if they were never grafted in Him? Or how can someone fall from grace if they’ve never been in a state of grace before?
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Bible Highlighter · Dec 31, 2019

As for "fellowship" mentioned in 1 John 1:7:
Yes, it is dealing with fellowship, but it is also talking about salvation because it says that if we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Most Christians agree that the cleansing blood of Jesus deals with salvation.

Alain Valdivia · Dec 31, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
I believe we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and in seeking His forgiveness believing that He died, was buried, and was risen from the grave on our behalf for salvation. But the next step or stage in the salvation process is Sanctification and or living holy by the working of God within us. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

What you are saying is nothing different from what the Roman church teaches. Paul did not differentiate between justification and final salvation. Here is a text to be seen, “Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.” (‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:9-10‬). Notice how the future salvation is based on Christ and not us? Salvation is “extra nos” or “outside of us.” Also as to Hebrews 12:14, I agree with what the verse says. That without holiness no one will see the Lord. But it does NOT say that we are saved by our holiness or righteousness. That would be a clear contradiction to Titus 3:5 (which also denies the idea of being saved by grace and being kept saved by works), “he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,” ‭‭(Titus‬ ‭3:5‬). Notice how even works done by us in righteousness, which can’t be done unless we are already justified (1 John 2:3), do not merit grace even then?

Al Touthentop · Dec 31, 2019

Alain Valdivia said:
I disagree with your assertion. God’s Laws and commands do not bestow grace in any way whatsoever. Paul opposed the commands of God with the grace of God in many places. In fact, the commands of God do nothing but show us our sins and point us to the Saviour.

God's commands, his instructions that he has given us are in and of themselves God's grace. Grace is God's gift, the things he has given us in order that we might live - which includes our very existence and the sacrifice of his Son. All of that is God's grace. That you see this as a curse rather than grace is just indicative of your own attitude of rejection of that grace.

“For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.” (Romans‬ ‭3:20‬).

And you totally ignore what kind of works he specifies there. Works of the law of Moses which had been made obsolete. He's preaching to people who were trying to justify themselves through circumcision, a commandment given under the old law.

“Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.” ‭(Galatians‬ ‭3:23-24‬). I other places we see where Paul opposes the Law with grace such as Romans 4,

The word faith there in that first sentence is referring to the faith, not personal belief. And again, he's referencing the law of Moses there when he says 'we were held captive under the law.'

“For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law (of Moses) who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,” (‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:13-16‬).

Also, if the Law did confer grace then for what reasons would there be for Christ instituting the sacraments?

Are not the sacraments "works?" They are things we do, correct?

The passages you brought out in 1 John are also clear that justification comes before obedience.

He's talking to people who have already obeyed "the faith." He's not talking about salvation. Of course they were already justified. But they were justified through obedience.

Just continue reading in the second chapter where John says, “And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.” (1 John‬ ‭2:3‬). Notice how obedience comes after knowing Christ (which is salvation)?

They were already saved. They had to continue obeying. That's how we know we know him.

It says “we know we HAVE come to know Him.” It’s in the past tense. Obedience comes after salvation not before. As to loving the brethren we should look to the 14th verse in the third chapter,

You are adding your pretext (Calvinism) to the text. You might not even BE a Calvanist but that's what Calvin taught. That God saves us (irresistibly) and then we are caused to obey. That pretext is not in the text itself. He's talking to people who were baptized (my little children) people who had obeyed the gospel (See Acts 2) And he says that the way we know we have come to know him is because we obey his commands. That is not saying that our obedience is a result of our salvation. Nowhere in the bible does it say we are saved and then caused to become obedient. That would be coercion. God doesn't do coercion.

“We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers.

We know that we have passed out of death into life because we obeyed the command that we love the brothers. The result of obedience, not the cause of it.

Whoever does not love abides in death.” ‭(‭1 John‬ ‭3:14).

Love is a work. A work that God prepared for us that we should walk in it. Your pretext that the work is the result rather than the cause is flatly rejected by this verse. Those who do not love abide in death. It's their refusal to do this that causes them to abide in death.

Again, notice how the grammar of the text shows that loving the brethren is an effect of being passed out of death into life and not the cause?

The grammar of the text clearly points out that it is their disobedience that causes them to pass from life to death. Love isn't a feeling, its a work.

It’s also in the past tense and loving the brethren is after. Check 1 John 4:7 for more confirmation on this.

What is in the past tense? Both 'love' and 'abides' are present tense in verse 14.

And again, be very careful. Yes you can lose salvation through the commission of mortal sin, but you can also lose your salvation if you depend on yourself to be saved.

Right. If I depended on myself to be saved I would be making up things to do and thinking that they could save me. The only works (not of yourselves) that will save me are the works God gave for me to do. That's not relying on myself, that's trusting that the commands, if followed, will do what God said they would do.

“You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.” (‭Galatians‬ ‭5:4‬).

Exactly, because going back to the law of Moses, a law which had been abolished by Christ is obedience to the wrong set of commands!

“Nothing is more deadly than self-righteousness! The man who counts himself to be righteous by his own works, worships himself. Practically, the object of his adoration is his own dear, delectable, excellent self; all his confidence is in himself, his boasting is in himself. O wretched egotist, you do at once lie and blaspheme! Self-righteousness is born in the house of folly, and it is nursed by human fancy. Cease from doting upon your own fancied beauties and worshiping your own foolish image. Self-righteousness is a great, God defying sin. Soul poverty and destitution bring a man to God. Self-righteousness is the ruin of all who harbor it. Self-righteousness most effectually bars a man from all hope of salvation.

I totally agree with this. But following God's commands, by definition, is not self-righteousness.

We are debtors to grace alone and I will breathe that til my dying breath.

And that grace includes the commands given by God which bring salvation.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 31, 2019

Alain Valdivia said:
I must say this because I see both errors in this thread. Yes we can lose our state of justification. The Church has always taught that until the time of the Protestant Reformation where John Calvin came along. For 1500 years the Universal Church always taught that one can lose their salvation. A very clear scripture I see is Galatians 5:4 which says this, “You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.” A question to be asked is how can someone be severed from Christ if they were never grafted in Him? Or how can someone fall from grace if they’ve never been in a state of grace before?
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In Galatians 5:4: I believe Paul is referring to the 613 Laws of Moses (or the Old Covenant Law that is no longer in effect); For Paul mentions just two verses up in Galatians 5:2 that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. Circumcision was something of the Old Law and not the New Law given to us by Jesus and His followers.

In fact, Galatians 5:2 is but one of several verses of Paul trying to speak against the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism." We see this heresy clearly described to us in Acts 15 here:

Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

And here we see Paul speaking against "Circumcision Salvationism" here:

Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”
1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)
Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”
Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

Granted, we cannot be saved by Law Alone Salvationism. We do need God's grace through faith in Christ because we cannot wipe away our past slate of sin clean by good deeds alone. But after we have been reconciled by the Lord of our past sin, we need to walk in newness of life. For there are there are believers that the Bible warns against whereby they turn God's grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). Paul said that we can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). Jesus said the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30). Hebrews 5:9 essentially says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Acts of the Apostles 3:23 says that anyone who does not hear that prophet (JESUS) they will be destroyed. Meaning if anyone does not obey Jesus, they will be destroyed at the judgment (Also see: Matthew 7:26-27). For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

Alain Valdivia · Dec 31, 2019

Ah, the age old assertion that the “works of the Law” are only the ceremonial laws. My dear brethren, this holds no water. When Paul spoke about the Law he mentioned some aspects of it that can only be true if they were moral commandments such as the Law shows us our sin (Rom 3:20). How then does the Law show us our sin if it isn’t moral precepts and our failure to keep them? Or how about when Paul spoke about how the gentiles by nature do what the Law says in Romans 2. How can he be talking about ceremonial laws when only the Jews had them? Or how about in Romans 7 where Paul was talking about us being divorced from the Law but married to Christ and mentioned the Law of “Thou shalt not covet” and his inability to keep it? Clearly that was the tenth commandment of the moral Law. What you are doing is eisegesis. You’re reading into the text. As to your claim that I was using Calvinist presuppositions when I said that justification comes before obedience I would only say that I pointed you to those texts in 1 John where grammatically the text shows explicitly that obeying comes after knowing Christ (2:3) and that loving the brethren is how we know we have already passed from death to life (3:14). And finally as to whether the Law conferred grace I would like for you to show me scripture on that. Where in the entire scriptures does it say that grace comes through the Law? Paul himself said that if righteousness (or grace) came through the Law then Christ died in vain (Gal 2:21). And as to the sacraments conferring grace it’s important to note that the sacraments are an instrumental cause not a meritorious or effective cause. It’s instrumental as faith is also instrumental because it lays hold on Christ for salvation. And again, as to the several texts brought forward on the necessity of good works I would say as any other person would that no man can perform a single good work unless he is first justified. To disagree with what I’m saying is to disagree with the Church and Her teachings. Read St. Augustine for example. I highly encourage you to do so.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 31, 2019

Alain Valdivia said:
What you are saying is nothing different from what the Roman church teaches.

Not true. I do not agree with the Roman Catholic church and it's extra biblical teachings like their praying to Mary, and the saints, confessing sins to a priest, transubstantiation, bowing down before statues, regarding the pope as being holy, etc.; I do not believe that any of the Catholic sacraments save in any way. They cannot be found in the Bible. In fact, they deny Sola Scriptura (Which is yet another thing I disagree with them on). But guilt by association is not always true. Catholics believe in the Trinity, but that does not mean the Trinity is untrue (just because they happen to get this one particular truth correct). The Scriptures is where I learned what I did when it comes to Soteriology (or the Study of Salvation). No doubt you have an issue that works play a part in the salvation process. But 2 Thessalonians 2:13, John 5:24, and James 2:24 essentially say that we need both God's grace and Sanctification to be saved. Please feel free to hover your mouse over these verses and carefully read them very slowly in what they say.

You said:
Paul did not differentiate between justification and final salvation. Here is a text to be seen, “Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.” (‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:9-10‬). Notice how the future salvation is based on Christ and not us? Salvation is “extra nos” or “outside of us.” Also as to Hebrews 12:14, I agree with what the verse says. That without holiness no one will see the Lord. But it does NOT say that we are saved by our holiness or righteousness. That would be a clear contradiction to Titus 3:5 (which also denies the idea of being saved by grace and being kept saved by works), “he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,” ‭‭(Titus‬ ‭3:5‬). Notice how even works done by us in righteousness, which can’t be done unless we are already justified (1 John 2:3), do not merit grace even then?

I believe you are confusing the different aspects of salvation, my friend.

When I read the Scriptures, I see 4 different aspects of salvation described.

#1. Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.).

#2. Justification (Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Justification is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Justification is believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, was buried, and had risen again three days later on your behalf, and accepting Jesus as your Savior, and seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer. This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). (For Justification verses, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#3. Sanctification (The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work (because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

#4. Glorification (The Future Salvation of the Truly Faithful Believer).
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
Glorification is when God takes the believer home to be with Him in His kingdom and He gives Him a new resurrected body that is not tainted by sin. This process of salvation (in being taken home) is a by product automatically for those believers who properly applied Justification and Sanctification to their lives (For Glorification verses, see: 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Peter 1:4, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Romans 13:11, Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 9:28).

Conclusion:

Justification, and then Sanctification is what we as believers need to be focused on. For if we are justified, and sanctified (which is only made possible by the Provisional Atonement), then we will be glorified.

Al Touthentop · Dec 31, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Not at all. The "them" in v.28 are recipients of eternal life. The "them" refers to the subjects of v.27, which are "My sheep". Not "My followers", as you would like.

You say "not at all." And then refute yourself. Jesus specifically put two classes of people in play here, those who are following sheep and those who are not following. Sheep that follow are DOING something. It's not a passive activity.

Can't you see that v.27 is a description of what His sheep DO?? Why not?

Can't you see that you have just totally sabotaged your own argument? I am the one who said that following is a doing and your response was "not at all." It would be funny if it didn't prove that your only interest is in an argument.

Or, better, it's a policy statement of what His sheep OUGHT TO DO. Why can't you accept that very straightforward explanation.

Exactly. What they ought to do, what, if they don't do, causes them not to be his sheep. His sheep are those that follow, obey, do the commands he's commanded them.

That's exactly what those who try to force v.27 into some kind of condition in order to never perish. Place the responsibility on the recipient to hear and follow.

You are so confused that you are arguing both sides of this argument from one sentence to the next.

But your theology forces individual behavior into the mix for being saved; listening and following. The Bible NEVER says such a thing. Quite the opposite.

"My sheep follow me."

Only those sheep which follow are considered his. You have stated above that following is doing something. Are you now changing your mind? How can you continue to change definitions in the middle of your argument and keep a sane mind?

There you go again!! Adding human works or effort for salvation.

God's works are not human works. They are not of man, they are of God. So human works can never save anyone and I have never asserted they do.

Please believe Rom 3:28 - For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

I totally believe that which is why I'll never offer animal sacrifices or keep the sabbath and expect that doing so will be of any use. It's the wrong set of commands. Those commands were abolished and we cannot go back to them and expect that God will call us righteous.

And pleasae don't patronize me by trying to argue that "the law" here is materially different than any command from the NT. It's all about human effort. And NONE of it will save anyone.

Paul was patronizing you?

Bible Highlighter · Dec 31, 2019

Alain Valdivia said:
Ah, the age old assertion that the “works of the Law” are only the ceremonial laws. My dear brethren, this holds no water. When Paul spoke about the Law he mentioned some aspects of it that can only be true if they were moral commandments such as the Law shows us our sin (Rom 3:20). How then does the Law show us our sin if it isn’t moral precepts and our failure to keep them? Or how about when Paul spoke about how the gentiles by nature do what the Law says in Romans 2. How can he be talking about ceremonial laws when only the Jews had them? Or how about in Romans 7 where Paul was talking about us being divorced from the Law but married to Christ and mentioned the Law of “Thou shalt not covet” and his inability to keep it? Clearly that was the tenth commandment of the moral Law. What you are doing is eisegesis. You’re reading into the text. As to your claim that I was using Calvinist presuppositions when I said that justification comes before obedience I would only say that I pointed you to those texts in 1 John where grammatically the text shows explicitly that obeying comes after knowing Christ (2:3) and that loving the brethren is how we know we have already passed from death to life (3:14). And finally as to whether the Law conferred grace I would like for you to show me scripture on that. Where in the entire scriptures does it say that grace comes through the Law? Paul himself said that if righteousness (or grace) came through the Law then Christ died in vain (Gal 2:21). And as to the sacraments conferring grace it’s important to note that the sacraments are an instrumental cause not a meritorious or effective cause. It’s instrumental as faith is also instrumental because it lays hold on Christ for salvation. And again, as to the several texts brought forward on the necessity of good works I would say as any other person would that no man can perform a single good work unless he is first justified. To disagree with what I’m saying is to disagree with the Church and Her teachings. Read St. Augustine for example. I highly encourage you to do so.

The works of the Law is referring clearly to the Law of Moses or the Old Law as a whole or package deal. Whenever you read Romans, Galatians, and or Corinthians, try looking at the chapter, or the previous chapter, or the next one and you will see that it he makes a reference to the Law of Moses. The Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12). Paul is not referring to the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2), or the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25). Paul is not referring to the Law or Command that tells us to believe in Jesus (See: 1 John 3:23). Are you not justified by the Law in 1 John 3:23? Surely you must be. So Paul is not referring to all forms of Law here.

Alain Valdivia · Dec 31, 2019

And as to you saying that Gal 5:4 means ceremonial works I again would point you to verse 3 which says this, “I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.” Again, he is mentioning the whole Law (which includes moral precepts) being a requirement for salvation if you accept circumcision which he is denying all throughout this epistle. Moreover, in the 3rd chapter the Apostle says this, “For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."” (‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10). Notice how it says “abide by all things written in the Book of Law.” Who would deny that moral precepts are not included in the “all things written in the Book of the Law”?
‭

Al Touthentop · Dec 31, 2019

Alain Valdivia said:
Ah, the age old assertion that the “works of the Law” are only the ceremonial laws.

Nobody has said that. Circumcision was one of the laws. Paul said that if you obeyed one you were subject to keep all of them. So he acknowledges that it isn't just circumcision you would have to keep but animal sacrifice and all the rest to boot.

But your objection and attempt to put this into some box, is just ignorance of what Paul wrote there. I didn't limit this to circumcision, I just said that they were being taught that they had to be circumcised. And what Paul was pointing out was that you couldn't go back to the law of Moses and be justified.

Read St. Augustine for example. I highly encourage you to do so.

Take note especially of his claim that sin is transmitted through sperm, with not even one scripture referenced to back up that assertion. Augustine was a perv and he saw sex in everything. He was a sick man whose writings are slander against God.

Alain Valdivia · Dec 31, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
The works of the Law is referring clearly to the Law of Moses or the Old Law as a whole or package deal. Whenever you read Romans, Galatians, and or Corinthians, try looking at the chapter, or the previous chapter, or the next one and you will see that it he makes a reference to the Law of Moses. The Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12). Paul is not referring to the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2), or the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1;25). Paul is not referring to the Law or Command that tells us to believe in Jesus (See: 1 John 3:23). Are you not justified by the Law in 1 John 3:23? Surely you must be. So Paul is not referring to all forms of Law here.

You still haven’t touched those three texts I showed you. How can gentiles do what the Law says by nature if the Law was only ceremonial works?
“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.” (Romans‬ ‭2:14-15‬). How can the Law accuse if it doesn’t include moral works? Or how can the Law show us our sin if it was just circumcision? Or how can the Law make us accountable to God if it didn’t prove our inability to keep it?
“Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.” (‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬). And why does Paul mentioned the 10th commandment in Romans 7 when talking about the inability for him to keep the Law If he didn’t have in mind moral commands?

Bible Highlighter · Dec 31, 2019

Alain Valdivia said:
Ah, the age old assertion that the “works of the Law” are only the ceremonial laws. My dear brethren, this holds no water. When Paul spoke about the Law he mentioned some aspects of it that can only be true if they were moral commandments such as the Law shows us our sin (Rom 3:20). How then does the Law show us our sin if it isn’t moral precepts and our failure to keep them? Or how about when Paul spoke about how the gentiles by nature do what the Law says in Romans 2. How can he be talking about ceremonial laws when only the Jews had them? Or how about in Romans 7 where Paul was talking about us being divorced from the Law but married to Christ and mentioned the Law of “Thou shalt not covet” and his inability to keep it? Clearly that was the tenth commandment of the moral Law. What you are doing is eisegesis. You’re reading into the text. As to your claim that I was using Calvinist presuppositions when I said that justification comes before obedience I would only say that I pointed you to those texts in 1 John where grammatically the text shows explicitly that obeying comes after knowing Christ (2:3) and that loving the brethren is how we know we have already passed from death to life (3:14). And finally as to whether the Law conferred grace I would like for you to show me scripture on that. Where in the entire scriptures does it say that grace comes through the Law? Paul himself said that if righteousness (or grace) came through the Law then Christ died in vain (Gal 2:21). And as to the sacraments conferring grace it’s important to note that the sacraments are an instrumental cause not a meritorious or effective cause. It’s instrumental as faith is also instrumental because it lays hold on Christ for salvation. And again, as to the several texts brought forward on the necessity of good works I would say as any other person would that no man can perform a single good work unless he is first justified. To disagree with what I’m saying is to disagree with the Church and Her teachings. Read St. Augustine for example. I highly encourage you to do so.

I believe God cannot do the good work through a believer's life to be fruitful in obeying the Lord's commands unless they are first enter into the Justification Process by seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ, and or in believing in His death, burial, and resurrection on their behalf for salvation.

Alain Valdivia · Dec 31, 2019

Al Touthentop said:
Nobody has said that. Circumcision was one of the laws. Paul said that if you obeyed one you were subject to keep all of them. So he acknowledges that it isn't just circumcision you would have to keep but animal sacrifice and all the rest to boot.

But your objection and attempt to put this into some box, is just ignorance of what Paul wrote there. I didn't limit this to circumcision, I just said that they were being taught that they had to be circumcised. And what Paul was pointing out was that you couldn't go back to the law of Moses and be justified.

Take note especially of his claim that sin is transmitted through sperm, with not even one scripture referenced to back up that assertion. Augustine was a perv and he saw sex in everything. He was a sick man whose writings are slander against God.

I now see where you’re coming from when you talk about Augustine like that. Quick question, what church do you go to or do you even go to a church at all? I’ve noticed that people who preach your theology tend to be schismatics. On another note, when you replied on me speaking about circumcision you were using a straw men to ignore my question. I wasn’t just talking about circumcision but the ceremonial works as a whole.

Al Touthentop · Dec 31, 2019

Alain Valdivia said:
You still haven’t touched those three texts I showed you. How can gentiles do what the Law says by nature if the Law was only ceremonial works?
“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.” (Romans‬ ‭2:14-15‬).

You've erected a staw man. Nobody says that Paul was only talking about ceremonial law. The new law of Christ, or the perfect law of liberty has moral proscriptions just like the old law did. We are to obey those. But if we go back to the old law, then we also have to keep the ceremonial aspects as well. It's a new covenant. We obey the new one, not the old one.

The Bible teaches that salvation comes with conditions.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

“Domine miserere nobis. Parce nos in Christo.”

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

“Domine miserere nobis. Parce nos in Christo.”

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

“Domine miserere nobis. Parce nos in Christo.”

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

“Domine miserere nobis. Parce nos in Christo.”

Well-Known Member

“Domine miserere nobis. Parce nos in Christo.”

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

“Domine miserere nobis. Parce nos in Christo.”

Well-Known Member

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