Christian Question - Please Answer :)

Andrewn said:

This is very nice but it doesn't answer my question. For example, how did father Abraham see and talk with and eat with Yahweh (Gen 18), unless Yahweh is the pre-incarnate Messiah? Who did Adam and Moses and Gideon and others meet? Who will resurrected saints live with? An incorporeal image? A big TV screen?

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You think God in a Unitarian sense cannot reduce itself without it being Trinitarian in nature? That seems to sell God pretty short if it can't just manifest in a limited sense as something corporeal without it actually reducing itself in essence

Kris Jordan said:

Hi Muichimotsu,

Thank you for your candid answers.

Regarding humans addressing our problems, there is nothing we can do to ever fix our sin problem. An imperfect person can't fix or redeem an imperfect person, nor can an imperfect person become perfect outside of God's redemption/salvation. That's why Jesus (God the Son) left the glory of heaven to be born on this earth. He lived a perfect life on our behalf, died a sacrificial death in our place on the cross (dying for the sins of everyone), and offers the gift of forgiveness, salvation, and healing for our otherwise impossible problem that only brings death (physically and spiritually). He did this because He loves us. He loves you. And the salvation He offers is His gift of grace to all of us who never deserve it but desperately need it.

Every religion of the world is man's way of getting to God or to a state of Godhood. Christianity is not a religion. It's a relationship with the God of the Universe, the Creator, and the one Who loves us unconditionally. It's about our God who reached down from heaven to redeem us since we're incapable of doing that on our own.

I will pray for you. Jesus loves you whether you believe Him or not.

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If you're positing a problem that cannot be solved except by your supposed cure, that's a circular argument, it's not remotely reasonable, because it's assuming a conclusion that isn't warranted except by the assumption itself

~~~

And now you've fallaciously assumed the goal is to become perfect, which, I don't think is possible (see my signature), nor is it desirable anyway (also, see my signature). The goal is improvement, that isn't the same as completion. Again, you're goalpost shifting to make your argument seem compelling rather than considering that maybe your argument isn't warranted or substantiated by demonstrable independent evidence, but subjective experiences that are falsely inferred to be the divine intervening.

~~~~

Oh, and here's the cherry on top, you assume I want love from a perfect entity, when that's not love anymore, it's effectively me trying to communicate human concepts to an ant, there's no sense of genuine mutual understanding, which can only happen between essentially equal entities, like humans. A deity can no more understand love in the sense of mutual empathy than an ant can understand love, because it's either beyond that capacity or below it respectively.

You might accuse me of defining love in a convenient fashion, but I'm presenting it in the basic fashion. If you could demonstrate the idea of love as being something transcendent rather than experiential and necessarily flawed (because perfect love would also mean we never really make mistakes and thus would have no virtue to it, see my signature again)

~~~`

And now you're just deflecting responsibility from trying to be even comparable to other religions: Christianity is a religion, you don't get to claim it isn't and use alliteration to claim it's somehow fundamentally different when the worldview necessarily includes orthodox doctrine, ecclesiastical structure, interacting with the divine in some sense through prayer, etc.

You can claim yours is a unique religion (or the true religion), it isn't the opposite or otherwise of a religion because it's unique in some respects, it would have to be fundamentally different from any conceivable definition of religion that isn't merely reducing it to a caricature that's conveniently defining everything EXCEPT Christianity as a religion (goalpost shifting again).

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Ending your "conversation" with condescension, intentional or otherwise, doesn't help your case, because it's still assuming your position is true without making demonstrations, merely asserting your convictions, which is no different than if a Muslim told me all the amazing things connected to Islam without substantiating the claims.

Andrewn said:

I find your statement to be unwarranted after referring you to where I showed the difference between the modern and the ancient definitions of the word "person."

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That is your view. I was responding to someone else who doesn't seem to share your view.

Kris Jordan said:

Hi Ken-1122,

I'm not sure I can give you exactly what you're looking for since I'm not super clear on what your difficulty is regarding Being and Person. But let me try to explain a few differences and see if it helps:

Human beings (People):

• We are created beings;
• We are physical beings;
• We have a beginning to our existence (therefor, are not eternal in nature or essence);
• We have a sinful, unholy, and impure nature;
• We are not divine

Spiritual beings (Angels and Demons):

• They are created beings;
• They are spiritual beings;
• They had a beginning to their existence (therefore, are not eternal in nature or essence);
• Angels are sinless, yet not divine;
• Demons are sinful, and not divine;

Divine Being: (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit):

• He is not a created Being;
• He is an eternal Being;
• He has no beginning or end;
• He is perfect and holy;
• He is Divine

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I’m trying to understand how you make sense out of the claim that God is 3 separate persons yet one being. I see people (person) and being as the same.

Kris Jordan said:

Just to clarify, I'm not Catholic. However, the doctrine of the Trinity is in the Bible. The "term" Trinity is used to define that clearly taught doctrine. Much like the word "Rapture" isn't in the Bible, it's the term used to define that doctrine or the "catching away" that is taught.

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Do you agree the guys who originated the term “Trinity” understood it even though they had finite minds like you and I?

muichimotsu said:

You do realize making sense to you is not indicative of actual truth behind something in reality, right?

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Likewise, neither argumentum ad incredulum nor argumentum ad ignorantium provide a valid argument against something.

-CryptoLutheran

Ken-1122 said:

That is not what I asked. The Trinity defines God as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; 3 (divine) persons one God (being). I’ve always seen a person and a being as the same, but apparently you guys see them as different so I’m asking what is the difference.

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Being = be-ing, is-ness, what a thing is.
Person = Someone, who-ness, agency.

Bob is a human being. Human is Bob's being, Bob is the person.

-CryptoLutheran

Joshua S said:

So I've always been confused on the matter but never really reached out to ask and if I did, I would've still not understood it but the question is, you know how Jesus Christ talks to God, His father numerous times throughout the Holy Bible, well, is Jesus Christ talking to Himself? If Jesus Christ is God in human form and if He is talking to God, His Father, then isn't He conversing with Himself in two separate areas, one on Earth and one in Heaven? Please help me understand this.

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This really is a good question, one I used to ponder myself. There's a quote by C.S. Lewis that I really like...

(((All sorts of people are fond of repeating the Christian statement that " God is love". But they seem not to notice that the words 'God is love' have no real meaning unless God contains at least two persons. Love is something that one person has for another person. If God was a single person, then before the world was made, He was not love.))) -C.S. Lewis

The Godhead is proven throughout scripture. God is not “schizophrenic”, He does not talk to Himself in three personalities. He is three persons in on and there is proof of this throughout scripture.

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let US make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness;

Who is “Us” and “Our” in this verse? Who is PLURAL but still SINGULAR in this verse? Is He speaking to angels? No, angels cannot create. Is he speaking to His alternate personalities? No, that would be foolishness. So this verse proves, without question, that God is three PERSONS in ONE! Why? Because we know there’s only ONE creator.

Genesis 3:22
Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like ONE OF US, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever

Here we have God saying “one of us”, any questions? And in this next verse all three are represented… The Sovereign Lord (Father) sending the Son with His Spirit:

Isaiah 48:16-17
Come near me and listen to this: "From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there. "And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, with his Spirit. This is what the LORD says - your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go

Psalm 2:6-7
I have set my king on Zion, my holy hill. I will tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you

Psalm 2:12
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him

And in this next verse from the Old Testament (also quoted in Hebrews) we have the Father speaking of the Son and calling Him God.

Psalm 45:6,7
6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.

And also in Hebrews…

Hebrews 1:8-9
But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

There are many more verses that prove that God is three distinct persons, but I believe none are more profound than these next ones…

1 Corinthians 12:4-6
There are diversities of gifts, but the same SPIRIT. There are differences of ministries, but the same LORD. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same GOD who works all in all.

2 Corinthians 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.

Ephesians 4:4-6
There is one body and ONE SPIRIT, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; ONE LORD, one faith, one baptism; ONE GOD AND FATHER of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you[a] all.

1 Peter 1:2
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the FATHER, in sanctification of the SPIRIT, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of JESUS CHRIST: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Interesting how this next passage uses “name” and not “names”. Why? Because GOD IS ONE!!

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the NAME of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Luke 3:22
And the HOLY SPIRIT descended in BODILY form like a dove upon HIM (Jesus), and a voice came from heaven (The Father) which said, You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”

Ephesians 2:18
For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

John 15:26
“But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

There are many more passages that prove that God is three persons in one, but I believe none are more simple and revealing as this next one.

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the FATHER, the WORD, and the HOLY SPIRIT; and these THREE ARE ONE.

Grace and Peace...

muichimotsu said:

You do realize the Genesis verses wouldn't be interpreted by Jews as reflecting the Trinity, right? God would've been speaking in the royal plural, effectively, not actually indicating plurality of its nature.

It's easy (and overly convenient) to interpret the NT verses in favor of the Trinity (as supposed orthodoxy), but even they don't necessarily have that as the sole valid interpretation

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Hi Muichimotsu,

That is incorrect. But it sounds like we need to agree that we completely disagree.

muichimotsu said:

If you're positing a problem that cannot be solved except by your supposed cure, that's a circular argument, it's not remotely reasonable, because it's assuming a conclusion that isn't warranted except by the assumption itself

~~~

And now you've fallaciously assumed the goal is to become perfect, which, I don't think is possible (see my signature), nor is it desirable anyway (also, see my signature). The goal is improvement, that isn't the same as completion. Again, you're goalpost shifting to make your argument seem compelling rather than considering that maybe your argument isn't warranted or substantiated by demonstrable independent evidence, but subjective experiences that are falsely inferred to be the divine intervening.

~~~~

Oh, and here's the cherry on top, you assume I want love from a perfect entity, when that's not love anymore, it's effectively me trying to communicate human concepts to an ant, there's no sense of genuine mutual understanding, which can only happen between essentially equal entities, like humans. A deity can no more understand love in the sense of mutual empathy than an ant can understand love, because it's either beyond that capacity or below it respectively.

You might accuse me of defining love in a convenient fashion, but I'm presenting it in the basic fashion. If you could demonstrate the idea of love as being something transcendent rather than experiential and necessarily flawed (because perfect love would also mean we never really make mistakes and thus would have no virtue to it, see my signature again)

~~~`

And now you're just deflecting responsibility from trying to be even comparable to other religions: Christianity is a religion, you don't get to claim it isn't and use alliteration to claim it's somehow fundamentally different when the worldview necessarily includes orthodox doctrine, ecclesiastical structure, interacting with the divine in some sense through prayer, etc.

You can claim yours is a unique religion (or the true religion), it isn't the opposite or otherwise of a religion because it's unique in some respects, it would have to be fundamentally different from any conceivable definition of religion that isn't merely reducing it to a caricature that's conveniently defining everything EXCEPT Christianity as a religion (goalpost shifting again).

~~~~

Ending your "conversation" with condescension, intentional or otherwise, doesn't help your case, because it's still assuming your position is true without making demonstrations, merely asserting your convictions, which is no different than if a Muslim told me all the amazing things connected to Islam without substantiating the claims.

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Hi Muichimotsu,

Well, one day you will know God is real and His Word is true and absolute - and that He loves you beyond comprehension. Blessings to you, in Jesus' name.

Ken-1122 said:

I’m trying to understand how you make sense out of the claim that God is 3 separate persons yet one being. I see people (person) and being as the same.


Do you agree the guys who originated the term “Trinity” understood it even though they had finite minds like you and I?

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Hi Ken-1122,

God teaches us in the Bible that He is One God in three Persons. We don't have to fully understand the "how" of it to believe it. We just need to trust that He's God, He cannot lie, and He knows what He's talking about more than we ever will.

A different example of something we don't really understand or comprehend the "how" of is what God says about the marriage relationship between a man and woman. When a man and woman get married, God says "the two become one flesh." How is this possible when there are two distinct individuals? From our vantage point as married people, we are still two separate individuals because that's what we can comprehend and understand. However, from God's vantage point - and since He's the One who established marriage in the first place - we are two separate persons but we became "one flesh" via marriage.

Regarding your other questions, I have no comment since I don't know who exactly you're referring to.

ViaCrucis said:

Being = be-ing, is-ness, what a thing is.
Person = Someone, who-ness, agency.

Bob is a human being. Human is Bob's being, Bob is the person.

-CryptoLutheran

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So using this scenario in the context of this conversation, but with more people,

*Bob, Billy, and Jane are people (plural for person)
*Their being is human
*Because they share the same being, Bob Billy and Jane are 3 separate persons in one being.

Would you agree with this analogy?

Kris Jordan said:

Well, one day you will know God is real and His Word is true and absolute - and that He loves you beyond comprehension. Blessings to you, in Jesus' name.

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Rom 14:10-11 We all will stand in front of the judgment seat of God. Because it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will give praise to God.

Phi 2:9-11 Therefore, God highly honored him and gave him a name above all names, so that at the name of Jesus everyone in heaven, on earth, and under the earth might bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The atheists would rather argue with you and ViaCrucis about the Trinity. I'm outa here .

Opps!

Ken-1122 said:

So using this scenario in the context of this conversation, but with more people,

*Bob, Billy, and Jane are people (plural for person)
*Their being is human
*Because they share the same being, Bob Billy and Jane are 3 separate persons manifested as one being.

Would you agree with this analogy?

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No, and that's because in the case of Bob, Billy, and Jane we are dealing with three separate instances of human being, that is, there are three human beings being mentioned. So in the case of Bob, Billy, and Jane we have three persons and three beings.

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity asserts that the Divine Being is indivisible, unitary, one. There's only one God.

-CryptoLutheran

Kris Jordan said:

Hi Ken-1122,

God teaches us in the Bible that He is One God in three Persons. We don't have to fully understand the "how" of it to believe it. We just need to trust that He's God, He cannot lie, and He knows what He's talking about more than we ever will.

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So you believe it, even though you don't understand it.

Kris Jordan said:

A different example of something we don't really understand or comprehend the "how" of is what God says about the marriage relationship between a man and woman. When a man and woman get married, God says "the two become one flesh." How is this possible when there are two distinct individuals? From our vantage point as married people, we are still two separate individuals because that's what we can comprehend and understand. However, from God's vantage point - and since He's the One who established marriage in the first place - we are two separate persons but we became "one flesh" via marriage.

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It depends on how you are defining “flesh” in this context. If flesh means one spirit, or unit, I can understand them being one from a religious view in this context. If flesh is being defined as a single human body, then humans are not one in that context.

Kris Jordan said:

Regarding your other questions, I have no comment since I don't know who exactly you're referring to.

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When I said “people who originated the trinity” the trinity was originated by the Catholic Church,

The Surprising Origins of the Trinity Doctrine

I was asking if the people of the Catholic Church who originated it understood it, we should be able to understand it as well.

ViaCrucis said:

No, and that's because in the case of Bob, Billy, and Jane we are dealing with three separate instances of human being, that is, there are three human beings being mentioned. So in the case of Bob, Billy, and Jane we have three persons and three beings.

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity asserts that the Divine Being is indivisible, unitary, one. There's only one God.

-CryptoLutheran

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Doesn't this sound like a contradiction to you?

Ken-1122 said:

Doesn't this sound like a contradiction to you?

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It really doesn't.

The Father is God, and the Father communicates, shares, His being--His essence--with the Son and the Holy Spirit. Nothing had been multiplied here, the Father doesn't produce another god, but rather His own God-ness is also present in His Son and Spirit. So the Son is God because what He is He has from His Father. That's what we mean when we say that the Son is homoousios--of the same being--as the Father. The Son's being, His essence, is the being and essence of the Father.

While not one of the major creeds or confessions, the symbol of faith drawn up at a small local council at Toledo in the late 7th century is often regarded as one of the best articulations of Trinitarian teaching in the West,

In the clause about God the Father:
"And we profess that the Father is not begotten, not created, but unbegotten. For He Himself, from whom the Son has received His birth and the Holy Spirit His procession, has His origin from no one. He is therefore the source and origin of the whole Deity. He Himself is the Father of His own essence, who in an ineffable way has begotten the Son from His ineffable substance. Yet He did not beget something different from what He Himself is: God has begotten God, light has begotten light." - from the 11th Council of Toledo, c. 675 AD

-CryptoLutheran

Andrewn said:

Rom 14:10-11 We all will stand in front of the judgment seat of God. Because it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will give praise to God.

Phi 2:9-11 Therefore, God highly honored him and gave him a name above all names, so that at the name of Jesus everyone in heaven, on earth, and under the earth might bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The atheists would rather argue with you and ViaCrucis. I'm outa here .

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Hi Andrewn,

Thanks for posting those verses. They are some of my favorites! I love the saying one of my favorite pastors uses: "There are no deceased atheists."

They may die as such, but it all changes the moment they enter into eternity and realize the God they refused to believe in is absolutely real and His love for them was (and is) genuine. I just hope they figure it out on this side of eternity before it's too late to repent of their sin and be saved. That is my prayer...

Saying that if Jesus is God and He prays then it must mean that He’s God is not Trinitarian, but actually modalism which is a heresy. The Father is not the Son nor is the Son the Father. They are distinct persons. So when Christ prays to the Father He is praying to another person who shares His Divine Essence which is Deity.
Here is a quotation from the Athanasian Creed:
“And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
Neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son and another of the Holy Spirit.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son and such is the Holy Spirit.
The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.
As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensibles, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty;
And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.”

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

ViaCrucis said:

It really doesn't.

The Father is God, and the Father communicates, shares, His being--His essence--with the Son and the Holy Spirit. Nothing had been multiplied here,

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Actually it is being multiplied. The same way if I you had children, you would share your genes (being essence) with your children, but it is not one, it is now multiple between yourself and your children, not just one. God the father charing his essence/being with others does not change the fact that they are still multiple; it doesn't make them one, to do so would be a contradiction.