Faith in the living, resurrected Word (while the scriptures are only 50% historically accurate).

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Again, imagine a community of 1st generation Christians, a community that possesses no copy of the scriptures, they find a hermit, they proclaim the gospel in her hearing, and she comes to faith. What does she lack? She has faith in the resurrected Son of God, she has a community within which to worship and learn and grow, so what does she lack not having an opportunity to read the scriptures?
This hypothetical example from the OP is pretty spot on. "Bang on", as the Brits say.

It was centuries before the NT was canonized. And more centuries before the Bible was available to commoners. Therefore, EVERYONE who came to Christ in that time period did so WITHOUT a Bible to deliver the message. Because there simply wasn't one.

This even begs the question of whether God even wanted us to have a canonized NT. Was this man's idea, or God's idea? Men cast votes to decide what should be included and what shouldn't. The book of James barely made the cut.

So, what do we have here? How dependent have we become on the book? What have we LOST in the process? And do we not use this book to beat each other up on the forum? Is the book not used to divide the body of Christ into sects? Do not divisive doctrines proceed from the study and theorizing of the texts? Are not schools of thought created which drive us farther apart instead of bringing us closer together? These should be sobering questions.
 
Upvote 0

Hillsage

One 4 Him & Him 4 all
Supporter
Jun 12, 2009
5,244
1,767
The land of OZ
✟322,350.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
This hypothetical example from the OP is pretty spot on. "Bang on", as the Brits say.

It was centuries before the NT was canonized. And more centuries before the Bible was available to commoners. Therefore, EVERYONE who came to Christ in that time period did so WITHOUT a Bible to deliver the message. Because there simply wasn't one.

This even begs the question of whether God even wanted us to have a canonized NT. Was this man's idea, or God's idea? Men cast votes to decide what should be included and what shouldn't. The book of James barely made the cut.

So, what do we have here? How dependent have we become on the book? What have we LOST in the process? And do we not use this book to beat each other up on the forum? Is the book not used to divide the body of Christ into sects? Do not divisive doctrines proceed from the study and theorizing of the texts? Are not schools of thought created which drive us farther apart instead of bringing us closer together? These should be sobering questions.
There's one thing that the first church had that we're missing too much. That thing is, the "power" of the Holy Spirit. There's also one thing the church of today has, that the first church didn't have, a written new testament BIBLE.

JOH 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me;

1CO 4:19 But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I will find out not the talk of these arrogant people but their power.
20 For the kingdom of God does not consist in talk but in power.

On judgment day, if my spiritual walk is one of "power" against "the ruler of this world", I will receive more rewards than the Christian guru who had his doctrinal '"talk" right and lived in a 'walk' of iniquity.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There's one thing that the first church had that we're missing too much. That thing is, the "power" of the Holy Spirit. There's also one thing the church of today has, that the first church didn't have, a written new testament BIBLE.

JOH 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me;

1CO 4:19 But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I will find out not the talk of these arrogant people but their power.
20 For the kingdom of God does not consist in talk but in power.

On judgment day, if my spiritual walk is one of "power" against "the ruler of this world", I will receive more rewards than the Christian guru who had his doctrinal '"talk" right and lived in a 'walk' of iniquity.
Amen to that.
It reminded me of this.

1 Corinthians 2:3-5
I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hillsage
Upvote 0

public hermit

social troglodyte
Supporter
Aug 20, 2019
10,966
12,052
East Coast
✟830,414.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
It was centuries before the NT was canonized. And more centuries before the Bible was available to commoners. Therefore, EVERYONE who came to Christ in that time period did so WITHOUT a Bible to deliver the message. Because there simply wasn't one.

Exactly. The discussion we've been having about how to approach the OT is significant, as well, due to the fact that is the only set of scriptures they did have. Nonetheless, it was the proclamation that was primary. It was oral. As I mentioned earlier, they quickly developed statements of faith (something like 1 Cor. 15:3-5) and those helped maintain a certain amount of unity as time went along.

This even begs the question of whether God even wanted us to have a canonized NT. Was this man's idea, or God's idea? Men cast votes to decide what should be included and what shouldn't. The book of James barely made the cut.

Good questions. I would argue they were needed just to maintain some continuity over time. We've all played that game where someone tells another a secret and the secret goes around the room. By the time it gets back to the originally secret teller it has changed. Oral transmission is sketchy, at best. In my mind, the key is how we treat the scriptures. It has a function, but that function is not for them to be the basis of faith. Therein lies the problem. When the scriptures become the basis of faith, one must bend over backwards to protect its intregrity, at all costs (even at the cost of accepting questionable moral acts as God ordained and approved).

So, what do we have here? How dependent have we become on the book? What have we LOST in the process? And do we not use this book to beat each other up on the forum? Is the book not used to divide the body of Christ into sects? Do not divisive doctrines proceed from the study and theorizing of the texts? Are not schools of thought created which drive us farther apart instead of bringing us closer together? These should be sobering questions.

Indeed they are sobering questions, which we have ignored to our own peril. I'll add to them. How many children have been taught that it is either young earth creationism or evolution and if they don't accept young earth creationism then they are denying the faith. Then, when these poor souls get an education and look at the evidence they simply assume, "I guess I can't be Christian." Or, how many times have we watched a Christian defend the scriptures against atheists and naysayers who rightly point out horrendous acts attributed to God in the OT? If we would just lighten our death grip, we could simply point to Christ and say, "Look, here is our interpretive key. He is our Lord. We serve him. The book has a function, but it is not perfect." Christians really need to come to terms with how we approach the scriptures and put them in their rightful place: in the service of the resurrected Jesus Christ.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Logically speaking: there is a possible world where Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who is incarnated, dies and rises again, and yet there are no scriptures in the sense that we know them today. Someone might balk and say, "But, how would we know about it?" Well, any number of ways. A different set of writings, perhaps? The point being that the scriptures are not that which makes his death and resurrection efficacious for salvation. They are simply a means to knowing about Christ, as fallible as they might be.
Here's another great paragraph from the OP.

If I could be so bold as to say that this points to the real crime of Cessationism. We have been robbed of life-changing power. Even Jesus couldn't do many miracles in his own home town based on the prevailing unbelief. (Mark 6:4-6) We are suffering the same fate in the church.

The original gospel went forth with the power to change lives. It was about the power of God meeting people where they were with life or death needs. Jesus said, even greater works than he did, will we be doing. (John 14:12) Have we seen that day yet?

We do NOT need a Bible to do this.
Here's our to-do list from Jesus. How are we doing on our list?

Matthew 10:8
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

public hermit

social troglodyte
Supporter
Aug 20, 2019
10,966
12,052
East Coast
✟830,414.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Here's another great paragraph from the OP.

If I could be so bold as to say that this points to the real crime of Cessationism. We have been robbed of life-changing power. Even Jesus couldn't do many miracles in his own home town based on the prevailing unbelief. We are suffering the same fate in the church.

The original gospel went forth with the power to change lives. It was about the power of God meeting people where they were with life or death needs. Jesus said, even greater works than he did, will we be doing. (John 14:12) Have we seen that day yet?

We do NOT need a Bible to do this.
Here's our to-do list from Jesus. How are we doing on our list?

Matthew 10:8
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

Oh man, that is humbling.

You are making an interesting point, i.e. that, somehow, our reliance on the scriptures has limited our power in Christ. My take on that passage (John 14:12) was that he was saying the quantity of our deeds would be greater than his, not necessarily the quality. But, once you pair it with the Matt. passage it puts it into a different light, for sure.

At any rate, the argument you are making seems counter-intuitive, which is probably a word in its favor. I would be interested to see this idea developed. Do you have any more thoughts in that regard?
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I would be interested to see this idea developed. Do you have any more thoughts in that regard?
Sure. Thanks for asking.

There is a segment of Christianity that is leaning into the whole area of signs and wonders, as it is called. One of the leading figures is Kevin Dedmon. (site link) Kevin Dedmon Ministries - Firestarters

The basic idea is to depend on the Holy Spirit to give you either a word of knowledge or the opportunity to minister supernaturally to someone.

Imagine the impact of a meeting a total stranger that says God has revealed something to them about you. And when they tell you, you are floored by what you hear. But not only do they know something, they are prepared to minister to you. How open would you be to someone like that when they told you about God?

They have an activity called a Treasure Hunt that we have done at our church. We meet at church and ask God to reveal a place, a person and a need. Then we go find them. It doesn't always work. But when it does. Wow.

It even works when it doesn't work. My group ended up at a retail store. We walked through the whole place and didn't find what was on my treasure map. On our way out the door the woman at the cash register asked us if we found what we were looking for. Which I thought was hilarious. I explained to her what we were doing and she totally understood me. When I went to leave, God spoke to me. He told me to go back and pray with that woman, which I did.
 
Upvote 0

public hermit

social troglodyte
Supporter
Aug 20, 2019
10,966
12,052
East Coast
✟830,414.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Sure. Thanks for asking.

There is a segment of Christianity that is leaning into the whole area of signs and wonders, as it is called. One of the leading figures is Kevin Dedmon. (site link) Kevin Dedmon Ministries - Firestarters

The basic idea is to depend on the Holy Spirit to give you either a word of knowledge or the opportunity to minister supernaturally to someone.

Imagine the impact of a meeting a total stranger that says God has revealed something to them about you. And when they tell you, you are floored by what you hear. But not only do they know something, they are prepared to minister to you. How open would you be to someone like that when they told you about God?

They have an activity called a Treasure Hunt that we have done at our church. We meet at church and ask God to reveal a place, a person and a need. Then we go find them. It doesn't always work. But when it does. Wow.

It even works when it doesn't work. My group ended up at a retail store. We walked through the whole place and didn't find what was on my treasure map. On our way out the door the woman at the cash register asked us if we found what we were looking for. Which I thought was hilarious. I explained to her what we were doing and she totally understood me. When I went to leave, God spoke to me. He told me to go back and pray with that woman, which I did.

That is fascinating! I had never heard of Dedmon, but I am checking out the link. Very interesting.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That is fascinating! I had never heard of Dedmon, but I am checking out the link. Very interesting.
Anyone that has the Holy Spirit can do this. We need to operate in the gifts of the Spirit. Kevin Dedmon Ministries has formalized it into an organized program to inform and help Christians to activate in this area.
 
  • Like
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Exactly. The discussion we've been having about how to approach the OT is significant, as well, due to the fact that is the only set of scriptures they did have. Nonetheless, it was the proclamation that was primary. It was oral. As I mentioned earlier, they quickly developed statements of faith (something like 1 Cor. 15:3-5) and those helped maintain a certain amount of unity as time went along.
Agreed.
We also need to remember/consider the practical aspects of this as well. It was probably unusual for a common person to have a set of the scriptures. They were typically a set of scrolls owned by the synagogue. The people would listen to the public reading of the scriptures on the Sabbath. This is why the Jews had experts in the law. They had the scrolls and were studied in them. They were amazed at the things Jesus said, since he had not been schooled by them. Even as a child he had impressed them.

1 Timothy 4:13
Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching.

John 7:14-15
Not until halfway through the festival did Jesus go up to the temple courts and begin to teach. 15 The Jews there were amazed and asked, “How did this man get such learning without having been taught?

Luke 2:46-48
After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”
 
  • Like
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

public hermit

social troglodyte
Supporter
Aug 20, 2019
10,966
12,052
East Coast
✟830,414.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Agreed.
We also need to remember/consider the practical aspects of this as well. It was probably unusual for a common person to have a set of the scriptures. They were typically a set of scrolls owned by the synagogue. The people would listen to the public reading of the scriptures on the Sabbath. This is why the Jews had experts in the law. They had the scrolls and were studied in them. They were amazed at the things Jesus said, since he had not been schooled by them. Even as a child he had impressed them.

1 Timothy 4:13
Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching.

John 7:14-15
Not until halfway through the festival did Jesus go up to the temple courts and begin to teach. 15 The Jews there were amazed and asked, “How did this man get such learning without having been taught?

Luke 2:46-48
After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”

Good point. I want to say, in relation to this point, that the focus was not so much in knowing the scriptures and merely believing them, but living the faith.

There is this connection, I think, between this idea that I simply believe the scriptures, therefore I am saved, and this lack of power you mentioned. Faith is not simply believing some things about Christ are true. It is matter of trust in the God who raises the dead and living in light of that seminal event. The power of those early Christians and thier willingness to let it all go hinged on trusting this God and following the one he sent and raised.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Hillsage

One 4 Him & Him 4 all
Supporter
Jun 12, 2009
5,244
1,767
The land of OZ
✟322,350.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Agreed.
We also need to remember/consider the practical aspects of this as well. It was probably unusual for a common person to have a set of the scriptures. They were typically a set of scrolls owned by the synagogue. The people would listen to the public reading of the scriptures on the Sabbath. This is why the Jews had experts in the law. They had the scrolls and were studied in them. They were amazed at the things Jesus said, since he had not been schooled by them. Even as a child he had impressed them.

1 Timothy 4:13
Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching.

John 7:14-15
Not until halfway through the festival did Jesus go up to the temple courts and begin to teach. 15 The Jews there were amazed and asked, “How did this man get such learning without having been taught?

Luke 2:46-48
After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”

I don't remember even seeing this scripture you posted before. And it reads almost exactly like that in my primary go to translations.

1 Timothy 4:13
Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching.


You bolding the "public reading of Scritprue" really caught my eye, so I decided to cross reference it with Strong's. I'm not sure where they ever came up with "public". I envisioned preaching on the street corner I guess.
 
Upvote 0

Abraxos

Nemo vir est qui mundum non reddat meliorem.
Jan 12, 2016
1,116
599
123
New Zealand
✟69,315.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
This post is primarily for those who believe the scriptures (original documents) are an inerrant, perfect representation of historical events. Of course, anyone may comment. (This post may need to be moved, but I figured the topic would be controversial for some so I placed it here).

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that only 50% of the scriptures are (in some sense) historically accurate. Nonetheless, Jesus Christ is the resurrected Son of God whose death and resurrection are efficacious for salvation. Assuming this were true, how would this affect they way you think about the scriptures?

I get the impression from some, who argue for the inerrancy of the scriptures, that if something within the scriptures were not historically accurate, then we could not trust that Jesus Christ is Son of God, whose death and resurrection are efficacious for salvation. But, one does not necessarily follow from the other.

Logically speaking: there is a possible world where Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who is incarnated, dies and rises again, and yet there are no scriptures in the sense that we know them today. Someone might balk and say, "But, how would we know about it?" Well, any number of ways. A different set of writings, perhaps? The point being that the scriptures are not that which makes his death and resurrection efficacious for salvation. They are simply a means to knowing about Christ, as fallible as they might be.

Again, imagine a community of 1st generation Christians, a community that possesses no copy of the scriptures, they find a hermit, they proclaim the gospel in her hearing, and she comes to faith. What does she lack? She has faith in the resurrected Son of God, she has a community within which to worship and learn and grow, so what does she lack not having an opportunity to read the scriptures?

Would you give up the faith if you knew some of the scriptures were not historically accurate and yet you knew that Jesus is in fact the living, resurrected Son of God through whom salvation is given? I dare say you would have no good reason to do so. Thoughts? Comments?
Believing in God and that Jesus is Lord is more of a personal and theological matter, and the facts of the Bible is a historical matter. One can undoubtedly have zero need for the Bible or have little to no knowledge of the historicity of Scripture to believe Jesus is Lord; however, it seems somewhat antithetical to the most real sense of what it means to have faith and seems more of a belief that is on par with believing in superstition and fantasy. Faith not grounded in its historical context can lead to potential forms of Gnosticism and wayward doctrines about Jesus. Even the early church had this problem with the supposed "lost gospels," and endeavoured to preserve the four gospels and the rest of the NT while exposing heretical teachings contrary to the NT.

21st-century faith seems to disassociate faith and reason as separate entities when at its core are complimentary. The scriptures itself tells us that God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind, and encourages us to use reason (Isaiah 1:18), so why should we limit ourselves to knowing and understanding truth in all its forms? Impartiality is a strength of the Christian worldview and exclusive to it that ought not to be undermined due to complacency.

I also found that calling the Bible "inerrant" or "infallible" are loaded and misleading terms. For example, the English translations (NIV, ESV, KJV, NKJV, etc.) used the Masoretic Text (manuscript from 1008 A.D.) which in some cases has been proven to not be textually accurate by the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Does this mean that the Bible is erroneous or fallible? By all means no! Only that understanding its context and establish it through the testimony of two or three witnesses (Matthew 18:16) to determine its substance is scripturally and spiritually agreeable. (Isaiah 34:16)
It should also be noted that biblical scripture has a multifaceted purpose to it that Jesus himself exclaimed (John 5:46), revealing a kind of typology of representations and foreshadowings in the scriptures providing deeper meanings, if not, prophetic parables. So while a curious utterance may appear, it should be examined more on the merits of its deeper aspects rather than the literal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Good point. I want to say, in relation to this point, that the focus was not so much in knowing the scriptures and merely believing them, but living the faith.

There is this connection, I think, between this idea that I simply believe the scriptures, therefore I am saved, and this lack of power you mentioned. Faith is not simply believing some things about Christ are true. It is matter of trust in the God who raises the dead and living in light of that seminal event. The power of those early Christians and thier willingness to let it all go hinged on trusting this God and following the one he sent and raised.
Agreed.
I wonder if they were puzzled by Jesus' teaching in this scripture.
It seemed that they were all surprised by the crucifixion when it happened.
The Apostle Paul picks up the theme in Galatians.

Luke 9:23-24
Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You bolding the "public reading of Scritprue" really caught my eye, so I decided to cross reference it with Strong's. I'm not sure where they ever came up with "public". I envisioned preaching on the street corner I guess.
Yes, that is strange isn't it.
I assume it means reading to the congregation, but that certainly isn't what it says.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hillsage
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
@Hillsage @public hermit @Shrewd Manager and any others.
I was reading in the Gospel of John and encountered this inserted statement shown at the bottom of this post. I had seen it before, of course, and others like it in the NT.

But I had never considered how an oral tradition existing before the "writing" might effect what this means. It seems that the standard thought is that the earliest manuscripts are the most accurate, because they do not include later scribal additions or changes that were not in the original. Which is true to a large extent.

However, if the "original" is based on an oral tradition, whose "speaking" of it is most original and accurate, could not changes be made later that reflect the acknowledgement of other "oral" sources? Sources that are just as valid as those that were "written" first?

[The earliest manuscripts and many other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53—8:11. A few manuscripts include these verses, wholly or in part, after John 7:36, John 21:25, Luke 21:38 or Luke 24:53.]
 
  • Agree
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0

public hermit

social troglodyte
Supporter
Aug 20, 2019
10,966
12,052
East Coast
✟830,414.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
However, if the "original" is based on an oral tradition, whose "speaking" of it is most original and accurate, could not changes be made later that reflect the acknowledgement of other "oral" sources? Sources that are just as valid as those that were "written" first?

Yes, I think this could be the case. The example that comes to mind is the "woman caught in adultery." Most manuscripts include it, but many of the very earliest do not. What do we make of this? 1) As you mentioned, it could have been part of an oral tradition and was simply added later. 2) All it would take is to find one very early manuscript with it included and the whole debate concerning this passage goes out the window. I think we need to be careful how much credence we give to this idea that the earliest manuscripts are always the most accurate.

As far as the historicity of that particular text is concerned, we'll never know one way or the other. There are certainly aspects of the story that read like a first hand account, such as Jesus bending down and writing (what? we do not know). That is a strange tidbit to include in a wholly fabricated story. If I were making the story up I would certainly explain what he wrote. But, then again, I'm not a great story fabricator.

At any rate, I would consider it presumptuous to assume that because it isn't included in the earliest manuscripts that we should conclude it has no basis in some actual event. But, more to the point, the value of the account is not so much its historicity as the moral it teaches us about how we might be tempted to condemn others even as we, ourselves, are under judgment.

And this goes back to placing too much emphasis on historicity. What is the value of these texts? Is it the historicity? Well yes, to some extent. If the bible were 100% false in relation to actual events we certainly have a problem. But, the greater value is what it communicates to us about God (and Christ), the world, and humanity. Consider, again, the story about the woman caught in adultery. If I walk away from that story believing it is historically accurate, and yet I still condemn others as if I have no faults of my own, then what good does believing its historicity do for me? On the other hand, let's say I am not wholly convinced of the story's historicity (let's assume I've read scholars debating this text and I'm just not sure), and yet I walk away refraining from condemning others because, upon reflection after hearing the story, I recognize my own sinfulness bars me from condemning others. What have I lost in questioning its historicity? This is one of my main complaints about biblical inerrancy. It places too much emphasis on the wrong aspect.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And this goes back to placing too much emphasis on historicity. What is the value of these texts? Is it the historicity? Well yes, to some extent. If the bible were 100% false in relation to actual events we certainly have a problem. But, the greater value is what it communicates to us about God (and Christ), the world, and humanity. Consider, again, the story about the woman caught in adultery. If I walk away from that story believing it is historically accurate, and yet I still condemn others as if I have no faults of my own, then what good does believing its historicity do for me? On the other hand, let's say I am not wholly convinced of the story's historicity (let's assume I've read scholars debating this text and I'm just not sure), and yet I walk away refraining from condemning others because, upon reflection after hearing the story, I recognize my own sinfulness bars me from condemning others. What have I lost in questioning its historicity? This is one of my main complaints about biblical inerrancy. It places too much emphasis on the wrong aspect.
This is a GREAT response to the OP question.
Do we not strain out a gnat while swallowing a camel when we put TOO much emphasis on the book? Too much emphasis being the aforementioned divisiveness and denial of the POWER of the gospel to effect lives, especially our own.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0

Mountainmanbob

Goat Whisperer
Supporter
Sep 6, 2016
15,961
10,817
73
92040
✟1,096,353.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
This post is primarily for those who believe the scriptures (original documents) are an inerrant, perfect representation of historical events. Of course, anyone may comment. (This post may need to be moved, but I figured the topic would be controversial for some so I placed it here).

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that only 50% of the scriptures are (in some sense) historically accurate. Nonetheless, Jesus Christ is the resurrected Son of God whose death and resurrection are efficacious for salvation. Assuming this were true, how would this affect they way you think about the scriptures?

I get the impression from some, who argue for the inerrancy of the scriptures, that if something within the scriptures were not historically accurate, then we could not trust that Jesus Christ is Son of God, whose death and resurrection are efficacious for salvation. But, one does not necessarily follow from the other.

Logically speaking: there is a possible world where Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who is incarnated, dies and rises again, and yet there are no scriptures in the sense that we know them today. Someone might balk and say, "But, how would we know about it?" Well, any number of ways. A different set of writings, perhaps? The point being that the scriptures are not that which makes his death and resurrection efficacious for salvation. They are simply a means to knowing about Christ, as fallible as they might be.

Again, imagine a community of 1st generation Christians, a community that possesses no copy of the scriptures, they find a hermit, they proclaim the gospel in her hearing, and she comes to faith. What does she lack? She has faith in the resurrected Son of God, she has a community within which to worship and learn and grow, so what does she lack not having an opportunity to read the scriptures?

Would you give up the faith if you knew some of the scriptures were not historically accurate and yet you knew that Jesus is in fact the living, resurrected Son of God through whom salvation is given? I dare say you would have no good reason to do so. Thoughts? Comments?

When I read the Bible
or hear preaching straight from the Bible
the Holy Spirit tells me that it is true.

Some are blinded and
that's just the way it goes.

Why did God call some
and not others?

After a good look
why did He call any?
M-Bob
 
  • Like
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
When I read the Bible
or hear preaching straight from the Bible
the Holy Spirit tells me that it is true.

Some are blinded and
that's just the way it goes.

Why did God call some
and not others?

After a good look
why did He call any?
M-Bob
Maybe you have it backwards. Maybe God loves us more than we love ourselves.
Maybe God sees the value when we don't. Just maybe...

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 
Upvote 0