The State of the Dead!!!

BobRyan · Dec 30, 2019

visionary said:
If eternal punishment is but a flash in the pan before non existence, is that punishment enough?

"But a flash in the pan"?? is it your claim that anything short of infinite torture as the just reward for finite sin -- is "but a flash in the pan"?? In what real life scenario has that ever been true?

concretecamper · Dec 30, 2019

BobRyan said:
But I think you are looking for Bible confirmation that ghosts are really dead people instead of what the Bible says about the ghost and the "familiar spirit" in 1 Sam 28??

I'm not convinced one way or the other. I just pointed out that the Gospel writers reported the Apostles thought they were seeing a ghost.

Alot different than circumcision, samaritan, or some other belief some of the Apostles may have had.

BobRyan · Dec 30, 2019

concretecamper said:
I sort of remember when the Apostles saw Jesus walking on the water they thought it was a ghost. Why would the Gospel writer write that? Hmmmmm Can this be taken as a confirmation on the existence of ghosts?

You are asking whether the leap of "extreme inference" in that example you give above, is a good "substitute" for having the Bible say "dead people come around as ghosts to mess with you".

concretecamper said:
I'm not convinced one way or the other. .

I am not convinced that extreme inference is sufficient substitute for "thus sayeth the Lord" which is what would actually be needed to establish such an extreme idea as "dead people come around as ghosts to mess with you even in the case of dead saints"

Without any extreme inference it can at least be taken as confirmation that the disciples had some interesting/unusual beliefs not necessarily blessed by Christ so also their reluctance to evangelize Samaritans, and their view of gentiles, and their thinking that Peter's ghost was knocking on the door while Peter was in Jail and the idea that gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved...etc.

But I think you are looking for Bible confirmation that ghosts are really dead people instead of what the Bible says about the ghost and the "familiar spirit" in 1 Sam 28??

concretecamper said:
apples and oranges,

I was wondering if there was a compelling point as response in your POV -- do you want to make a case for that?

visionary · Dec 30, 2019

BobRyan said:
"But a flash in the pan"?? is it your claim that anything short of infinite torture as the just reward for finite sin -- is "but a flash in the pan"?? In what real life scenario has that ever been true?

In the light of eternity, the fires that consume sin and sinners is but "a flash in the pan". It doesn't matter that it takes a thousand years or mere minutes to consume, it is over when it is finished consuming. Their existence, their sins, their thoughts even in the minds of those who live on will be erased. That is how tears are wiped away, long before the fire is kindled, the state of the dead from the book of the dead have been poured over and decreed their length of suffering for their sins before their life is snuffed out by the "eternal flames" in the lake of fire. As scripture says..

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death....15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

concretecamper · Dec 30, 2019

BobRyan said:
I am not convinced that extreme inference is sufficient substitute for "thus sayeth the Lord" which is what would actually be needed to establish such an extreme idea as "dead people come around as ghosts to mess with you even in the case of dead saints"

ok, you are in the no ghost camp. But please, dont base it in sola scriptura nonsense by saying the Lord didnt explicitly say so.

SarahsKnight · Dec 30, 2019

BobRyan said:
Correction - that was the mere quote of the text - that is causing that reaction you express.

Just to be sure, you realize i was being sarcastic, right?

visionary · Dec 30, 2019

One of the greatest deceptions is the devil's first lie. "Thou shalt not die" If there is any kind of existence after death, then God lied. Death is the absence of life. That is what makes the resurrection so powerful both in the reality and in its testimony against those who believe in life after death without the resurrection. If there was life after death, then why didn't Lazarus give his testimony?

I understand how the "ghosts" imitating bygone people from the past, have many believing in life as a spirit being. God never made us to exist as just spirits like angels. He never promised us an angelic spirit body. Our life after death as always been through the resurrection of the body. Even in the creation, where, from the earth, we were formed and life was breathed into us, did we become a living soul. When the breath of life departs from our body it goes back to God where it came from, not as an angel but as a memory.

I have heard nurses talk about the last moments of death of a patient and afterwards how there is a "smell" some foul and some sweet that lingers for a moment.

I have also heard and read stories of people coming back from the death with their stories of what it was like. But like a computer shutting down, the quick saving of the file, in their case, their life flashes before them, their mind as the essence leaves the body hears, sees, and understands. But also note that their body doesn't have any more visions, hearings, or stories to tell within the next 10 minutes. There is a shut down time, after which their life is no more. So even if they come back to life, the only few moments at death's door do they remember, whether it is a vision, a sense of what is happening to them and their body, it is all only those last few moments. If someone has been dead for a couple of hours, days, etc, you will not have them tell you anything further than those precious moments of mind shutdown. I will not deny these people their last moment experiences, but it not the experience of the dead.

BobRyan · Dec 30, 2019

SarahsKnight said:
Just to be sure, you realize i was being sarcastic, right?

Sorry I did not catch that - I have updated my post... I was juggling too many threads at once. My apologies.

BobRyan · Dec 30, 2019

BobRyan said:
I am not convinced that extreme inference is sufficient substitute for "thus sayeth the Lord" which is what would actually be needed to establish such an extreme idea as "dead people come around as ghosts to mess with you even in the case of dead saints"

such an extreme belief would need an actual Bible text for it. Not just "sounds good to me but not to you" kind of shifting sand.

concretecamper said:
ok, you are in the no ghost camp. But please, dont base it in sola scriptura nonsense by saying the Lord didnt explicitly say so.

Mark 7:6-13 Christ points to the error of the Jews where their tradition contradicted scripture.

The claim that "dead people come around as ghosts to mess with you even in the case of dead saints" is "off the charts" if all it has to support it - is the shifting sand of "sounds about right to me but not to folks that see that sort of thing as odd"

concretecamper · Dec 30, 2019

BobRyan said:
The claim that "dead people come around as ghosts to mess with you even in the case of dead saints" is "off the charts" if all it has to support it - is the shifting sand of "sounds about right to me but not to folks that see that sort of thing as odd"

I guess the Gospel writers (3 of them) were odd.

concretecamper · Dec 30, 2019

BobRyan said:
such an extreme belief would need an actual Bible text for it.

Ah, now all the SS people have another arrow in the quiver, it doesnt make sense to me so we dont need bible text

danielmears · Dec 30, 2019

BrotherD said:
The State of the Dead

Psalm 6:5 KJV — For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalm 88:10 KJV — Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.

Psalm 115:17 KJV — The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Job 7:9,10
9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.

Job 14:10-12
10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

The Dead Are Dead/Sleep

2 Samuel 12:21-23
21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

John 11:11-14
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

The Wicked Dead:

Psalm 37:20 KJV — But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psalm 68:2 KJV — As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

Revelation 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Malachi 4:1-3
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

The Righetous Dead:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-16
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Only the Righteous Live Forever:
Romans 6:23 KJV — For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Genesis 3:22 KJV — And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Revelation 2:7 KJV — He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Christ came to show us the way so we may have real life! He spoke of those who had no knowledge of God as dead already. Let the dead go bury their dead. God is Life! When His light, love and spirit fills the believer, by faith, then we are saved by grace! The in dwelling Spirit is what gives Life! Once one believes, lives by faith, not by sight, trusting, knowing God's righteous right arm, is with them it opens an amazing new realm! Glory to God, Jesus prayed we too would be one as He and the Father, all of Us One! John 17:21 Then real life, everlasting life occurs! God is with us, is us! We are to overcome the seen, believing in the unseen, Doing what Christ said, loving God and one another, having Faith!

visionary · Dec 30, 2019

Don't roll over in the grave when the Lord calls, the second time He calls will not go well.

Mark Quayle · Dec 30, 2019

BrotherD said:
Job 7:9,10
9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.

Job 14:10-12
10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Job 19
"25 I know that my redeemer lives
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!"

martymonster · Dec 30, 2019

visionary said:
If eternal punishment is but a flash in the pan before non existence, is that punishment enough? If the punishment is as long as it is for Satan, even he comes to ashes, as the fire consumes him from within until there is nothing left. So it is with all who follow him. The eternal punishment is the "forever" part. The punishment itself is like a flame going out after the fuel for the flame is gone.

That is exactly the same reason why there is no eternal punishment. How could you punish someone who's life is but a vapour, equally as a spirit who has lived for thousands of years, and caused untold evil?

Tyler52 · Dec 31, 2019

BrotherD said:
The bible is clear. Let me ask you this, Would a merciful God allow someone to burn forever? How would you feel if your loved one is burning and burning with no end in sight while you live peace? Satan would love that but not God. There is no such teaching as eternal life for a sinner. I served God out of fear, but that is not what he desires. He wants it to be out of love.

You are right when you say that God wants us to serve him out of love, but I have to disagree with you on Hell.
Matthew 25:46 ESV
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
How can their punishment end, when it is eternal. I don't believe that God likes it, and this is why he sent his son, so that we those who would except him would be spared from his wrath. God is the God of mercy, but he is also the God of justice.

BrotherD · Dec 31, 2019

Tyler52 said:
You are right when you say that God wants us to serve him out of love, but I have to disagree with you on Hell.
Matthew 25:46 ESV
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
How can their punishment end, when it is eternal. I don't believe that God likes it, and this is why he sent his son, so that we those who would except him would be spared from his wrath. God is the God of mercy, but he is also the God of justice.

We would have to ignore all the scriptures in the OP about the wicked will perish and be as ashes under the saints feet. Look at what Jude says about Sodom and Gomorrah:

Jude 1:7 KJV — Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

We know it is not still buring as of today. The fire from the Lord consumes until nothing is left to burn. Check out the ashen remains of Sodom and Gomorrah on youtube.

Now i do believe that the Lord will punish people by fire but the duration depends on how much you know of the Lords will and did not do it; check these scriptures:

Luke 12:42-48
Look at what 47 and 48 say:
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This tells me that the Lord in his infinite mercy will not punish someone severely for not knowing his will but those that did know his will he will give them what is due. God is:

Exodus 34:6,7
6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

An eternal place of torment is defemation of character, because that means God is not who he says he is and cannot be satisfied.

Original Happy Camper · Dec 31, 2019

Intertwined with beliefs about death and spiritism are the doctrines of hell and purgatory. These doctrines are of pagan origin, and were adopted into the Christian culture by the Roman Catholic Church fathers in the 1400s.

The doctrine that the wicked dead are tormented forever is inconsistent with the character of God, who demonstrated infinite love for us in the sacrifice of His Son. Unfortunately, many people have misunderstood these concepts and reject God as a result.

Hell and Purgatory

"Extreme unction," however, to a burdened soul, was but a miserable resource, after all, in the prospect of death. No wonder, therefore, that something else was found to be needed by those who had received all that priestly assumption could pretend to confer, to comfort them in the prospect of eternity. In every system, therefore, except that of the Bible, the doctrine of a purgatory after death, and prayers for the dead, has always been found to occupy a place. Go wherever we may, in ancient or modern times, we shall find that Paganism leaves hope after death for sinners, who, at the time of their departure, were consciously unfit for the abodes of the blest. For this purpose a middle state has been feigned, in which, by means of purgatorial pains, guilt unremoved in time may in a future world be purged away, and the soul be made meet for final beatitude."

https://philologos.org/__eb-ttb/sect45.htm

dqhall · Dec 31, 2019

martymonster said:
That is exactly the same reason why there is no eternal punishment. How could you punish someone who's life is but a vapour, equally as a spirit who has lived for thousands of years, and caused untold evil?

If a soul is extinguished by God, the person cannot be extended, healed or made to receive life. That is the eternal punishment, to never live again. God is not sadistic, but argued for mercy and not sacrifice (Hosea 6:6). God is against cruelty. Jesus taught and healed. He broke bread for thousands. He did not crucify his opponents. His kingdom was not likened to the kingdoms of the world who fought for dominion.

martymonster · Dec 31, 2019

dqhall said:
If a soul is extinguished by God, the person cannot be extended, healed or made to receive life. That is the eternal punishment, to never live again. God is not sadistic, but argued for mercy and not sacrifice (Hosea 6:6). God is against cruelty. Jesus taught and healed. He broke bread for thousands. He did not crucify his opponents. His kingdom was not likened to the kingdoms of the world who fought for dominion.

The whole point of the lake of fire, is to bring people to repentance, which is why we have this imagery in scripture.

Jon 3:6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.

The concept of sackcloth and ashes, is right through scripture. To be reduced to ashes, is for God's fiery judgements to have brought you to complete repentance. To put on sackcloth, is to realise that your good works are worthless, and are as filthy rags in God's nostrils. Not to mention, why would God's elect be kings and priests, if they had no one to rule over or minister to?

The State of the Dead!!!

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