- May 15, 2005
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As the following post came up in another thread which is already overly long, and as it has very little connection to the subject of that thread, which was falsely titled "The Fatal Flaw in Dispensationalism," I am re-posting it here as the OP for a new thread.
But before addressing THIS post, I will add that the poster, whose handle is “sovereigngrace,” has been making a great point of the fact that there is no single scripture that explicitly “teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?”
In pressing this point, this poster is ignoring two explicitly stated passages of scripture. The first of these is:
“Whom will he teach knowledge?
And whom will he make to understand the message?
Those just weaned from milk?
Those just drawn from the breasts?
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little."
(Isaiah 28:9-10)
This passage explicitly states that the whole picture of God’s plan is never presented in a single passage of scripture. It was intentionally scattered around, making careful study a basic requirement of even beginning to understand God’s revealed plans.
And the second of the explicitly stated passages of scripture being flatly ignored by this poster is:
“And the disciples came and said to Him, ‘Why do You speak to them in parables?’ He answered and said to them, ‘Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.’ ” (Matthew 13:10-12)
This passage tells us that the Holy Scriptures are intentionally designed to not only reveal the plan of God to His own, but to conceal it from unbelievers. It is pysically impossible to even begin to understand the Holy Scriptures witout first deciding to simply believe whatever might be found there.
Addressing all the errors in this post will take very much space, involving numerous separate posts. So I will not even try to address them individually in this OP. But I will begin by simply stating that, in order to adequately address a doctrinal system you think is mistaken, you need to begin by coming to an understanding of what the advocates of that doctrine actually teach. This is something that “sovereigngrace” has failed to do. For this post presents ideas presented by some poorly taught advocates of pre-tribulationism as it they were what is generally taught in the pre-tribulaton camp. I cannot say this poster has never bumped up against any of the ideas presented in the post above. But I can assure everyone who reads this, that what is presented in this post IS NOT scriptural pre-tribulationism and is NOT what was taught by the classical dispensational teachers.
But before addressing THIS post, I will add that the poster, whose handle is “sovereigngrace,” has been making a great point of the fact that there is no single scripture that explicitly “teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?”
In pressing this point, this poster is ignoring two explicitly stated passages of scripture. The first of these is:
“Whom will he teach knowledge?
And whom will he make to understand the message?
Those just weaned from milk?
Those just drawn from the breasts?
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little."
(Isaiah 28:9-10)
This passage explicitly states that the whole picture of God’s plan is never presented in a single passage of scripture. It was intentionally scattered around, making careful study a basic requirement of even beginning to understand God’s revealed plans.
And the second of the explicitly stated passages of scripture being flatly ignored by this poster is:
“And the disciples came and said to Him, ‘Why do You speak to them in parables?’ He answered and said to them, ‘Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.’ ” (Matthew 13:10-12)
This passage tells us that the Holy Scriptures are intentionally designed to not only reveal the plan of God to His own, but to conceal it from unbelievers. It is pysically impossible to even begin to understand the Holy Scriptures witout first deciding to simply believe whatever might be found there.
Pretrib contradictions
Having noticed the notable silence of Pretribbers when it comes to presenting actual evidence of a Pretrib paradigm in Scripture, and their inability to answer some simple recent question, I thought I would highlight some of the notable contradictions in their approach to the book of Revelations.
Dispensationalist Pretrib writers argue that Revelation 2-3 is seven church ages, Revelation 4:1 is the secret rapture, and that Revelation 6-19 is a seven-year Great Tribulation period. They take a strict chronological approach to Revelation and generally take a literal interpretation of the symbols contained within this allegorical book. They also put a great emphasis upon the fact that the word ekklesia or “Church” is not found anywhere between Revelation 6 and 19. This, they say, proves the Church has been totally removed from the earth in a secret Coming. They further argue that this seven-year tribulation period following Christ’s appearing is God’s particular dealings with natural Israel, a period in which the nation will accept Christ as Messiah.
However, this concept that the Church must be absent from the earth between Revelation 4–19 because of the fact that the word ekklesia is not mentioned in those chapters is totally illogical, and ignores the many clear and explicit varying terms and descriptions that God employs to describe His beloved people the Church in these passages. The Holy Spirit uses many names to describe God’s elect between Revelation 4 and 19, as He does elsewhere in Scripture; the word ecclesia or “Church” being just one of many.
I believe there are many major flaws and contradictions in the Pretrib rationale here. In fact, this reasoning is actually self-defeating (as we shall see). The only reason they continue to employ this argument is either (1) it is absolutely essential to sustain the Pretrib doctrine and therefore must be defended, (2) it is used by Pretribbers that have never truly thought it out, or (3) they have never been challenged on it and have therefore blindly believed it unaware of the absurdity of the argument.
If it was thoroughly and objectively considered, Pretribs would surely find their reasoning to be inadmissible, contradictory, and wholly baseless. We will quickly notice in our examination that within the very core of the argument resides the seed of its own destruction.
I will give you 15 solid reason why this reasoning is ridiculous and should be swiftly rejected. I will then explain these points.
(1) The word “Church,” as in the elect redeemed (born again) Church, is not mentioned anywhere in Revelation. There are only references to the local churches (which includes saved and unsaved) in Asia Minor in the last book in the Bible.
(2) The whole book of Revelation was written to local churches in Asia Minor 2,000 years ago for the expressed purpose of encouraging them in their hour of trial.
(3) Words, terms, titles and descriptions that are repeatedly used elsewhere in the New Testament to describe the Church of Jesus Christ are used regularly in Revelation 4 to 19 to describe the true Church of Jesus Christ.
(4) The apostate “churches” and their phony believers miss the rapture and enter this supposed 7 year tribulation, according to Pretrib – but the non-mention of the apostate “churches” must prove they are not on earth either. Where have they gone to?
(5) The word “Church” is not found in Revelation 4 in the Pretrib rapture
(6) The word “Church” is not found in the heavenly passages between Revelation 4 and 19. Using Pretrib logic, then they must be in heaven either.
(7) The word “Church” is not found in Revelation 19 for the Pretrib 3rd Coming. So, they cannot be part of that supposed event.
(8) The word “Church” not found in Revelation 20 in the millennium. They cannot therefore be part of that period of time.
(9) The word ‘“Church” not found in Revelation 21 in the eternal state. They cannot therefore be part of the eternal state.
(10) The word ‘“Church” not found in many places throughout the New Testament.
(11) The word ‘“Church” is not found in all the popular Pretrib proof texts.
(12) What about the absence of the word “Jew” and “Hebrew” from Revelation 4-19, and the absence of the word “Israel” after Revelation 7.
(13) What about the non-mention of the popular Pretrib term ‘tribulation saints’ in Revelation 4-19?
(14) Whilst “the Church” has been caught up at the Coming of Christ, even Pretrib teaches that local churches continue to exist after the rapture! Why are these churches not mentioned?
(15) Does the strange silence of the word “Christian” in Revelation 1-3 not prove Christians are not present or in view?
Addressing all the errors in this post will take very much space, involving numerous separate posts. So I will not even try to address them individually in this OP. But I will begin by simply stating that, in order to adequately address a doctrinal system you think is mistaken, you need to begin by coming to an understanding of what the advocates of that doctrine actually teach. This is something that “sovereigngrace” has failed to do. For this post presents ideas presented by some poorly taught advocates of pre-tribulationism as it they were what is generally taught in the pre-tribulaton camp. I cannot say this poster has never bumped up against any of the ideas presented in the post above. But I can assure everyone who reads this, that what is presented in this post IS NOT scriptural pre-tribulationism and is NOT what was taught by the classical dispensational teachers.
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