Resurrection Evidence

Resha Caner

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- We agree that a man rising from the dead, after being dead for three days, is extraordinary.
Yes.

- We also agree, therefore, extraordinary evidence must adjoin such a claim.
No, we do not agree. What is extraordinary is that I have to repeat my disagreement so many times.

- You stated that we must first establish [what] constitutes 'extraordinary evidence'.
Yes, this is part (but not all) of what I asked for.

As I've told others here, to entertain the idea that this claim was 'for real', would at least necessitate the need for multiple contemporaneous corroborated extra-biblical sources reporting of a being demonstrating return from His own death. We do not seem to have as such?
I'm sure you've established the conditions so they cannot be met.

Hence, seems perfectly reasonable to dismiss the claim.
I will not agree with you. As I said, this is special pleading.

I again ask you ...

What evidence persuaded [you] to believe that a man rose from the dead, after being dead for ~ 3 days?

I again tell you I already answered in post #4. I think we have enough posts now so that the next time you repeat all these questions I can just point to this post. Therefore, consider all future replies to be: see post #281.
 
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cvanwey

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Yes.


No, we do not agree. What is extraordinary is that I have to repeat my disagreement so many times.


Yes, this is part (but not all) of what I asked for.


I'm sure you've established the conditions so they cannot be met.


I will not agree with you. As I said, this is special pleading.



I again tell you I already answered in post #4. I think we have enough posts now so that the next time you repeat all these questions I can just point to this post. Therefore, consider all future replies to be: see post #281.

I again skimmed the first 100 posts. As far as I can tell, you have eluded to 'trust', 'belief in resuscitation', and 'spiritual push back', with little elaboration, and not much more.

Again, my OP is asking for evidence of a resurrection claim. Why bother engaging to begin with, when you have absolutely no intention of actually engaging?
 
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cvanwey

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I'd agree with that, yes.



I don't find it extraordinary that God would transmit a revelation like this locally rather than globally, no. I'm not even sure what it would mean for God's method to be extraordinary.

I will politely ask again :) What evidence makes the claims of His alleged resurrection compelling?

In other words, I'm curious what tipped the scales of it being true for you? Or are you instead on the fence? Or maybe not-so-sure?
 
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muichimotsu

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I don't understand this focus on extra-biblical sources. Do you really think anyone who actually witnessed the Resurrection would just carry on, business as usual, go back to their normal lives and not join the new movement? For a claim like this, I don't know where you think unbiased corroborating reports are going to come from.
People who actually cared to convey things that would've warranted being written down, especially if they were convinced it happened and aren't just writing it based in religious fervor that's already convinced them prior

And the miraculous nature of something does not, even back then, necessitate someone be so credulous as to join in rather than withhold judgment before reasonable confirmation
 
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muichimotsu

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I'd agree with that, yes.



I don't find it extraordinary that God would transmit a revelation like this locally rather than globally, no. I'm not even sure what it would mean for God's method to be extraordinary.
That it would pretty much be unambiguous, but the problem therein lies with faith extolled as a virtue, especially in not having direct experience at all, per the Doubting Thomas story
 
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Resha Caner

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I don't understand this focus on extra-biblical sources. Do you really think anyone who actually witnessed the Resurrection would just carry on, business as usual, go back to their normal lives and not join the new movement? For a claim like this, I don't know where you think unbiased corroborating reports are going to come from.

They seem to have no idea what they're asking. Words and ideas completely detached from the reality they discuss.
 
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Silmarien

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I will politely ask again :) What evidence makes the claims of His alleged resurrection compelling?

In other words, I'm curious what tipped the scales of it being true for you? Or are you instead on the fence? Or maybe not-so-sure?

No, I wouldn't say that I'm on the fence, though if there was a turning point, it was becoming less obsessed with evidence. I have an instinctive anti-supernaturalist bias myself--I know where it comes from, but I have a hard time dislodging it entirely, so no amount of evidence would ever be fully compelling to me.

People who actually cared to convey things that would've warranted being written down, especially if they were convinced it happened and aren't just writing it based in religious fervor that's already convinced them prior

And the miraculous nature of something does not, even back then, necessitate someone be so credulous as to join in rather than withhold judgment before reasonable confirmation

So you expect someone who has decided to withhold judgment pending reasonable confirmation to turn around and provide a corroborating eye-witness report that such an event actually did happen? Despite simultaneously withholding judgment?

If we had evidence like that, it would be an obvious forgery.

That it would pretty much be unambiguous, but the problem therein lies with faith extolled as a virtue, especially in not having direct experience at all, per the Doubting Thomas story

God's method would be extraordinary if it were unambiguous?
 
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muichimotsu

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No, I wouldn't say that I'm on the fence, though if there was a turning point, it was becoming less obsessed with evidence. I have an instinctive anti-supernaturalist bias myself--I know where it comes from, but I have a hard time dislodging it entirely, so no amount of evidence would ever be fully compelling to me.



So you expect someone who has decided to withhold judgment pending reasonable confirmation to turn around and provide a corroborating eye-witness report that such an event actually did happen? Despite simultaneously withholding judgment?

If we had evidence like that, it would be an obvious forgery.



God's method would be extraordinary if it were unambiguous?
An eye witness report is not the same as reporting that they've heard such things, it could at least somewhat lend credence beyond a group biased to reporting something as true if someone else had heard about it secondhand.

And no, I'm not expecting them to claim it DID happen, only that people claim it did, rather than it just being us trusting that initial reports were not forged, which is also possible with the gospel accounts

An all knowing all powerful entity is such that any evidence it gives us going to be unremarkable in that it would know what convinces each individual
 
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muichimotsu

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They seem to have no idea what they're asking. Words and ideas completely detached from the reality they discuss.
Oh, by all means enlighten us if you can actually substantiate claims that are contrary to what we've learned from people who supposedly known what they're talking about.

Do you think that the mere existence of a number of sources that all have a particular bias in the religious/spiritual angle of their texts means that the claims they make must be reliable somehow even if we don't have anything around that same time period from others that remotely agrees with them?

Jesus' miracles, his being crucified, several events alleged to have happened that I'd think the Romans would've said happened even if they didn't attribute it to Jesus, nothing seems to exist for them outside the Gospels
 
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Silmarien

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An eye witness report is not the same as reporting that they've heard such things, it could at least somewhat lend credence beyond a group biased to reporting something as true if someone else had heard about it secondhand.

And no, I'm not expecting them to claim it DID happen, only that people claim it did, rather than it just being us trusting that initial reports were not forged, which is also possible with the gospel accounts

If you're taking the hyper-skeptical approach and claiming that the initial reports were forged, then you could just as easily say that any independent report was forged as well.

In any case, the post I was replying to was lamenting the lack of extra-biblical confirmation of the actual Resurrection, not merely of the fact that people had claimed that it had happened.

An all knowing all powerful entity is such that any evidence it gives us going to be unremarkable in that it would know what convinces each individual

So what's extraordinary about that?
 
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muichimotsu

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If you're taking the hyper-skeptical approach and claiming that the initial reports were forged, then you could just as easily say that any independent report was forged as well.

In any case, the post I was replying to was lamenting the lack of extra-biblical confirmation of the actual Resurrection, not merely of the fact that people had claimed that it had happened.



So what's extraordinary about that?

I'm not taking a mythicist approach, I'm questioning why the only accounts we have relative to that time frame seem utterly convinced of the truth from the start rather than looking at it like a person would in general, not question begging in their narrative

The paradox is the problem: a deity with such capacity failing to give evidence that's remotely proportional to the claims is either incompetent or might as well not exist and is just human illogic inferring things based on mistaken thinking
 
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Silmarien

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I'm not taking a mythicist approach, I'm questioning why the only accounts we have relative to that time frame seem utterly convinced of the truth from the start rather than looking at it like a person would in general, not question begging in their narrative

Except that one of the contemporaneous accounts actually is from someone who was not utterly convinced from the start (Paul), so this claim strikes me as false. The Gospels themselves don't exactly portray people who are immediately convinced either.

Beyond that, I'm not really sure what sort of accounts you'd expect to have. There isn't that much material that's actually survived from that time period, and that's not taking into consideration literacy issues.

The paradox is the problem: a deity with such capacity failing to give evidence that's remotely proportional to the claims is either incompetent or might as well not exist and is just human illogic inferring things based on mistaken thinking

I don't see what's incompetent about failing to adhere to any one individual's evidentiary standards.
 
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muichimotsu

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Except that one of the contemporaneous accounts actually is from someone who was not utterly convinced from the start (Paul), so this claim strikes me as false. The Gospels themselves don't exactly portray people who are immediately convinced either.

Beyond that, I'm not really sure what sort of accounts you'd expect to have. There isn't that much material that's actually survived from that time period, and that's not taking into consideration literacy issues.



I don't see what's incompetent about failing to adhere to any one individual's evidentiary standards.
Paul's accounts are partly based on a subjective mystical experience we can't remotely take as anything more than that. The gospels are written in a narrative sense, that's the problem in seeing them as primarily historical, even if historical documents can have that presentation, this is more in the sense of a religious document, not just using the form for creative purposes. Also, not really certain Paul is that contemporary, because Jesus would've been dead for a few years at least, Paul's encounters are second hand with people who supposedly encountered Jesus, not contemporary in that he actually was there, that's certainly a standard to apply here, rather than just pseudo-contemporary

The fact that we have more reliability to believe Caesar existed than Jesus seems to suggest that any historicity is associated purely with the "bulk" of accounts and copies made by religious zealots after the fact to help Christianity persist rather than it actually being a historical fact that we can conclude even if the empirical evidence is not there in the sense that I can confirm stars in the sky

I'm saying if there's a God that knows the individual standards, but also knows that there are reasonable standards that can be agreed upon, it wouldn't depend on revelations that are vastly more subjective in nature
 
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Resha Caner

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Oh, by all means enlighten us if you can actually substantiate claims that are contrary to what we've learned from people who supposedly known what they're talking about.
I don't know who you're referring to - these "people who know what they're talking about", but I'd be fascinated to know how you "objectively" established this.

What I see you doing over and over is constructing scenarios of the way you think people should act, and then assuming reality consists only of people who actually do act in this hypothetical way (which is no one). If you're serious about deeply understanding Biblical texts as historical texts, I would recommend you actually study history. By that I mean pursue a degree. I know it completely changed my understanding of what history is.

Too often what I see from unbelievers is people who have picked up ideas about history from uncredentialled internet discussions that sound good, and have never engaged history in the broader context of a professional setting that will hold them accountable.

I've seen the transformation not only in myself, but in others. In fact, there was someone on this forum who, as an unbeliever, obtained a degree in Biblical Studies, became a teacher, and came to this forum proclaiming how utterly ridiculous and false the Bible was. It was fascinating how, over time, as this person was held accountable by other professionals in the field, the objections fell away one by one until that person had nothing left to argue and became a Christian.

Here, unfortunately, that accountability is sorely lacking. Regardless, somehow you need to learn that the world doesn't work the same way as you conceive it should in your mind. The real world is chaotic and messy and the Bible reflects that - as do all historical sources. Historians work with that messy chaos, they don't clear it away to discover some "objective truth".
 
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Silmarien

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Paul's accounts are partly based on a subjective mystical experience we can't remotely take as anything more than that.

You don't need to take Paul's account as being anything more than a subjective mystical experience, but you cannot say that we have no accounts from anyone who was not utterly convinced of the truth from the start. That is patently false.

The gospels are written in a narrative sense, that's the problem in seeing them as primarily historical, even if historical documents can have that presentation, this is more in the sense of a religious document, not just using the form for creative purposes.

The Gospels are a historical document, in that they were produced by a historical community and provide evidence of what was going on in that community. If you look at Luke, you'll see that the immediate reaction to Mary Magdalene and the other women was to write them off as an idle tale, so to say that people were immediately convinced from the very start doesn't fit with the actual narrative. You do not have to take this account at face value, but if you are going to say that people were "utterly convinced of the truth from the very start rather than looking at it like a person would in general," you need to provide evidence for that claim. The reactions described in Luke and John are pretty normal.

Also, not really certain Paul is that contemporary, because Jesus would've been dead for a few years at least, Paul's encounters are second hand with people who supposedly encountered Jesus, not contemporary in that he actually was there, that's certainly a standard to apply here, rather than just pseudo-contemporary

Insofar as you're asking for accounts from people who didn't immediately believe, and he's someone who did in fact not immediately believe, he seems to qualify. I really don't know why you'd expect genuine eye-witnesses to withhold judgment and not actually believe. It's not like people didn't believe in miracles in the 1st century A.D.

The fact that we have more reliability to believe Caesar existed than Jesus seems to suggest that any historicity is associated purely with the "bulk" of accounts and copies made by religious zealots after the fact to help Christianity persist rather than it actually being a historical fact that we can conclude even if the empirical evidence is not there in the sense that I can confirm stars in the sky

I would be very disturbed by the state of ancient history if we did not have more evidence pointing to the historicity of Julius Caesar. It's normal to have records about major political figures involved in military campaigns.

See, for example, Mohammed. Much of the information on him has been passed down by "religious zealots," as you so charitably describe it, but we have non-Islamic documentation of him because of his military pursuits.

I'm saying if there's a God that knows the individual standards, but also knows that there are reasonable standards that can be agreed upon, it wouldn't depend on revelations that are vastly more subjective in nature

I see no reason to assume this.
 
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cvanwey

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Looks as though we are almost 300 posts deep thus far. In my OP, I asked what makes the claims of a resurrection so compelling? I also asked if this belief is justified? Many responses ensued. Discussions formed. Transactions and exchanges took place. And yet, I fail to see much of anything related to the actual OP? Thus far, I see a handful of presumed believers, telling skeptics and unbelievers what they are doing 'wrong'. How about producing evidence to support the belief in question? -- The belief one holds, that a man lived, died on a cross, was placed in a tomb, and then rose from that tomb three days later.

Is anyone equipped to do this? Or, are we instead going to continue watching, as a handful of volunteering forum responding believers avoid this pretty straight forward line of questioning?
 
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Resha Caner

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Is anyone equipped to do this?

Per the conditions you articulate? No.

[1.] What makes the claims of a resurrection so compelling? ...
[2.] I also asked if this belief is justified? ...
[3.] How about producing evidence to support the belief in question?

What intrigues me is that you seem to think all 3 of the above questions are the same question. Is that the case, or do you realize how different these questions are?
 
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cvanwey

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Per the conditions you create? No.

Are [my] 'conditions' really just too darn rigid? If so, please explain?

Alternatively, why do [you] feel the evidence leads to 'truth' in a claim of a divine being rising from the dead to demonstrate His glory? 'Trust', or 'spiritual pull back' doesn't really explain much :(

What intrigues me is that you seem to think all 3 of the above questions are the same question. Is that the case, or do you realize how different these questions are?

I see no relevance here. My concern in this thread is to get believers to justify their beliefs. And thus far, it's like pulling teeth. What are you so darn afraid of?
 
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Resha Caner

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Are [my] 'conditions' really just too darn rigid? If so, please explain?

The last time I addressed that question you got upset and told me to go away.

I see no relevance here.

That seems to happen to you a lot, so let me help you out. Here are the 3 questions:
1. What makes the claims of the Resurrection compelling?
2. Is belief in the Resurrection justified?
3. What evidence supports the Resurrection?

In post #2 of this thread, I indicated a familiarity with arguments surrounding question 3, but said I did not consider them relevant to my faith. I indicated my interest in this thread was related to your other questions. I understood you to say you were OK with that, and I should proceed.

If this thread is only about question 3 and nothing else, I'm happy to bow out and leave you to it.

If you don't see the difference between the three questions, this is going to be nothing but a confused mess from which nothing good will come - also a reason for me to bow out … though I have faith in your ability to plant the flag of victory in the vast reaches of the ether.
 
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Abraxos

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Looks as though we are almost 300 posts deep thus far. In my OP, I asked what makes the claims of a resurrection so compelling? I also asked if this belief is justified? Many responses ensued. Discussions formed. Transactions and exchanges took place. And yet, I fail to see much of anything related to the actual OP? Thus far, I see a handful of presumed believers, telling skeptics and unbelievers what they are doing 'wrong'. How about producing evidence to support the belief in question? -- The belief one holds, that a man lived, died on a cross, was placed in a tomb, and then rose from that tomb three days later.

Is anyone equipped to do this? Or, are we instead going to continue watching, as a handful of volunteering forum responding believers avoid this pretty straight forward line of questioning?
The only way we can know if the resurrection occurred is to find out through the facts that it did happen. Being that this alleged event is a "supernatural event" it doesn't make it any less unknowable through the field of historical investigation, it only becomes obscure if it were considered through the realm of philosophical speculation. Whether the resurrection may classify as a "miraculous event," it is a historical event nonetheless and should be investigated as such. If this past event can be examined depends on the strick grounds of the method in investigating accounts from antiquity. Therefore, whether or not Jesus rose from the dead is quite straightforward: If a man named Jesus died by crucifixion at point A, and is alive again at point B, then resurrection has occurred "res ipsa loquitur."

Fact #1 - Jesus died by Roman crucifixion
Fact #2 - The empty tomb
Fact #3 - People believed they saw the risen Jesus
Fact #4 - Non-believers radically changed
Fact #5 - The Christian faith grows despite the fear of torture or death

Conclusion:

The more naturalistic explanations for the above facts such as the swoon theory, legendary development, fraud, and hallucinations fail to account for all the relevant data compiled and in some cases, are outright false and ahistorical (copycat theories). The resurrection hypothesis, however, accounts for all known facts, has greater explanatory scope and power, is more plausible, and less ad hoc.
Despite the slew of books that go into great detail on the case for the resurrection, using a minimal amount of facts compiled together that virtually every scholar accepts as accurate is probably an approach appropriate for a forum formatted in a way that encourages conversation to be more dynamic rather than contemplative? "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing."
 
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