Did Jesus inherit original sin from Mary?

throughfiierytrial · Dec 30, 2019

Dave L said:
THE SYMBOL OF CHALCEDON

We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [coessential] with us according to the manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning him, and the Lord Jesus Christ himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.

Historic Creeds and Confessions. Lexham Press.

misput · Dec 30, 2019

throughfireytrial said:
Please explain Romans 5:12-21 in your own terms then so I might clear up any misconceptions I might have. I believe you'll find original sin in those passages. Although the term original sin does not appear there the definition thereof does exist...much as using the word Trinity to define the Godhead.

Ro 5:15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
This scripture is what is known as a "simile" a figure of speech or metaphor comparing two unlike things that is often introduced by like or as. Scripture is clear, Ezek. 18: one man does not inherit another mans sin but what we can do is become a sinner the same way another man did. What Paul is beginning to say here is we all become sinners the same way Adam did, by sinning. The use of Christ in this Metaphor is well understood so I will not go into that.

throughfiierytrial · Dec 30, 2019

After originally reading the post I first responded to I took you to be saying Jesus did not become flesh...forgive me. I mostly subscribe to the creed, but I object to the citing of it as authoritative...only Scripture carries authority and I believe this creed goes beyond what can be found in the Scriptures.
Yes, Jesus was God with us and man...
Philippians 2:5-8
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death –
even death on a cross!

misput · Dec 30, 2019

Dave L said:
Jesus' person is God. Not human where sin resides. He has a human nature consisting of body and soul. Moreover God cannot sin.

As has already been brought out, He did have a fleshly nature that was tempted to sin but did not.

throughfiierytrial · Dec 30, 2019

misput said:
Ro 5:15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
This scripture is what is known as a "simile" a figure of speech or metaphor comparing two unlike things that is often introduced by like or as. Scripture is clear, Ezek. 18: one man does not inherit another mans sin but what we can do is become a sinner the same way another man did. What Paul is beginning to say here is we all become sinners the same way Adam did, by sinning. The use of Christ in this Metaphor is well understood so I will not go into that.

You must read all Scripture and you will find that this Ezekiel passage represents an introduction to the coming new covenant. Just as the passage, I desire mercy, not sacrifice...Hosea 6:6
As for the Ezekiel passage again, look at these passages which you either forgot or never properly digested yet...
Exodus 20:5-6:
for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Jeremiah 2:8-9:
Those who deal with the law did not know me;
the leaders rebelled against me.
The prophets prophesied by Baal,
following worthless idols.
9 ‘Therefore I bring charges against you again,’
declares the Lord.
‘And I will bring charges against your children’s children.
Jeremiah 31: 28-30:
Just as I watched over them to uproot and tear down, and to overthrow, destroy and bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant,’ declares the Lord. ‘In those days people will no longer say,

“The parents have eaten sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge.”

Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes – their own teeth will be set on edge.

Dave L · Dec 30, 2019

misput said:
As has already been brought out, He did have a fleshly nature that was tempted to sin but did not.

= two personalities?

throughfiierytrial · Dec 30, 2019

Dave L said:
= two personalities?

Jesus Christ does not change...the same yesterday, today and forever...Hebrews 13:8

Dave L · Dec 30, 2019

throughfireytrial said:
Jesus Christ does not change...the same yesterday, today and forever...Hebrews 13:8

This doesn't explain your view. Do you agree with the Chalcedon creed?

BobRyan · Dec 30, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Some claim that original sin passes down through the male line only.

When He bore our sins on the cross did this include original sin or did He already have it?

Jesus did not have any sin at all.

The sins that were paid for on the cross included the sin of Adam and Eve -- in the "first sin"

Light of the East · Dec 30, 2019

nonaeroterraqueous said:
The wages of sin is death. Whoever is conquered by death, such is is one who had sin. Whoever has no sin cannot be conquered by death. There is no consequence of sin for one who has no sin, which is why Christ could not be conquered by death. If a baby dies and remains dead, then the baby is not without sin. Attempting to live a life without original sin is as futile as attempting to live a life without entropy. No one, by any degree of effort, can escape it. We are the doomed in need of a savior.

You don't understand. The Roman Catholic idea of Original Sin sees sin as a crime before God and us as guilty. The RC Church teaches that the guilt of Adam's transgression is passed down to us so that we are guilty of sin by consequence of being related to him. A child who has done nothing is still guilty, and in the Middle Ages, this led the Roman Catholic Church to develop the bogus teaching of limbus infantium, the Limbo of the Infants, because they realized how unfair it sounded to send a baby who had done no sin to eternal hell.

This is not the Orthodox understanding. We have inherited a sickness called "sin" which has a consequence called "death." All human beings come into this world subject to that consequence from our ancestors.

Think of it this way. Think of a child born to a parent that has a genetic disease that the parents pass down to that child. The child can be the most wonderful person on earth, but they are still going to inherit the effects of that disease.

That is what sin is.

Light of the East · Dec 30, 2019

throughfireytrial said:
Romans gives us the Scripture for the term "original sin"...
Romans 5:15-17:
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: the judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
The word *death* there does not refer to physical death. And remembering also that after the fall Adam named "the woman" *Eve* because she would become the mother of all the living.
Christ took on our sinful nature and did not sin...He did not give way to sin.Romans 5 explains the reverse of the curse for sin. It came as a result of just one man's sin as Romans 5:14 indicates...
Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
Therefore it is inherited or original sin...the entire world fell with the sin of Adam and Eve.

You didn't prove Original Sin at all. Original Sin says that we bear the guilt of Adam's sin. Bogus. Utterly bogus. Not what Romans says at all. Look at the verses you posted. It speaks of bearing the consequence, which is death. Death rules over all. But there is no guilt implied in that.

A baby cannot sin. Sin requires a willing assent, done without coercion, to a known evil. Babies can't do this. But they can suffer the consequence of sin, which is death. That is why at Pascha the Eastern Church sings; "By death He conquered death." His death destroyed the consequence of sin, which is death. Death reigns no more.

And contrary to Roman Catholic teaching, unbaptized babies have no sin and go directly to heaven.

misput · Dec 30, 2019

throughfireytrial said:
You must read all Scripture and you will find that this Ezekiel passage represents an introduction to the coming new covenant. Just as the passage, I desire mercy, not sacrifice...Hosea 6:6
As for the Ezekiel passage again, look at these passages which you either forgot or never properly digested yet...
Exodus 20:5-6:
for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Jeremiah 2:8-9:
Those who deal with the law did not know me;
the leaders rebelled against me.
The prophets prophesied by Baal,
following worthless idols.
9 ‘Therefore I bring charges against you again,’
declares the Lord.
‘And I will bring charges against your children’s children.
Jeremiah 31: 28-30:
Just as I watched over them to uproot and tear down, and to overthrow, destroy and bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant,’ declares the Lord. ‘In those days people will no longer say,

“The parents have eaten sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge.”

Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes – their own teeth will be set on edge.

For God who shows no partiality and is the same yesterday, today and forever, your beliefs are riddled with contradiction. Sure, you may suffer for or because of your fathers sin but you are not condemned for it. If you are condemned it will be for your own sin.

misput · Dec 30, 2019

Dave L said:
= two personalities?

Poor response.

Dave L · Dec 30, 2019

misput said:
Poor response.

Just mentioning an error in understanding.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Dec 30, 2019

throughfireytrial said:
You are skipping the word "condemnation" (vs 16) not death the Scriptures are using those two words interchangeably. Condemnation is a type of separation from God...they were sent out of the Garden of Eden and the Garden was then guarded so as to prevent reentry...thus they experienced a spiritual death.
Again...
Romans 5:18-19:
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners

Read it in context.

You don't think death constitutes condemnation?

Carl Emerson · Dec 30, 2019

Dave L said:
Jesus' person is God. Not human where sin resides. He has a human nature consisting of body and soul. Moreover God cannot sin.

The concept of original sin holds that it is imputed not committed.

Like Jesus took our sin on himself. He did not commit our sin.

The question is did imputed original sin transfer to Jesus on the cross or through Mary's DNA or what ??

Carl Emerson · Dec 30, 2019

BobRyan said:
Jesus did not have any sin at all.

The sins that were paid for on the cross included the sin of Adam and Eve -- in the "first sin"

Yes... that is my take also - where does that leave the idea of being born with original sin?

Carl Emerson · Dec 30, 2019

Light of the East said:
It came from Augustine's wretched manhandling of the Greek language (language he did not know and admitted that he hated). He mistranslated Romans 5:12 and for some bizarre reason, the Western Church gobbled up his mistakes and never called a council to discuss these new teachings.

And the rest is, as they say, history.

Can you kindly give more detail on the mistranslation of Matt 5:12 referencing the Greek?

Dave L · Dec 30, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
The concept of original sin holds that it is imputed not committed.

Like Jesus took our sin on himself. He did not commit our sin.

The question is did imputed original sin transfer to Jesus on the cross or through Mary's DNA or what ??

Neither. He was sinless. God imputed Adam's sin to us. Then He Imputed our sins to Christ. And then Imputed Christ's righteousness to us.

PaulCyp1 · Dec 30, 2019

No, since it has been the teaching of the true Christian Church from the beginning, and therefore guaranteed true by God Himself, that Mary was born free of original sin.

Did Jesus inherit original sin from Mary?

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