The God of the Bible

Charlie24 said:

How can Islam be worshiping the God of Abraham, the God of the Bible, when they deny the promise God made to Abraham that Isaac is the chosen seed.

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The same way that Jews worship God even though they deny the promise God made to Mary that she would bear in her womb the Christ, the very Son of God.

It's not about having another god, it's about having the wrong understanding about God, what God has done, and what God has said.

Most recognize the absurdity in saying that Jews worship another god; in spite of the fact that literally every argument that could be made to say that Muslims worship another god can be applied to Judaism.

-CryptoLutheran

Andrewn said:

The subject of this thread is "who is worshiping the one true God found in the Bible." My comments were about "salvation," which was to say that believing in the one true God may not be related to salvation. One can clearly believe in the God of the Bible and not be saved.

My presupposition is that one could be saved without having the right belief in the Holy Trinity, so long they believe in Jesus as God and Savior. I could very well be wrong. All4Christ wrote that the Nicene Creed is a good gauge. I think that God would not use a Creed as a test for admittance. But, obviously, It's only speculation.

I will leave it at that. After all, I believe in the Nicene Creed and have no intention of defending Mormons or any other heretical sect. The Creed as a redline makes more sense than my presupposition. And it is consistent with the policy of the Christian Forums.

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To clarify, I can’t and won’t presume to know exactly who God will or won’t save I do personally believe the Nicene Creed is a good gauge.

While God desires the salvation of all, the path of life is narrow, and there are some things clearly mentioned in Scripture about the topic. Like you though, I won’t defend their teachings. Likewise, I won’t hesitate to share why I believe that their teachings are distorted and false...albeit not in a polemic fashion. I find polemic attitudes to cause more harm than positive influence when sharing our faith.

Jamdoc said:

really what I want to say is that, with Muslims, and Mormons for that matter, is I'm wondering if they can be reached and taught the true gospel. Because at least superficially, it's the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, and Jesus is the messiah in those religions as well, so they are getting partial truth and I'm wondering if that makes them easier to reach, or harder. It seems simple enough from their own beliefs that the switch is mostly just accepting that Jesus Christ was more than just the messiah He was God come in the flesh and died as atonement for our sins. It's the most important part but it seems like an easier bridge to build than say a Hindu, or a Buddhist, or an Atheist who doesn't even believe in the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob to begin with.
It's like you want to tell them "hey you're so close but you gotta take this last leap of faith over here"

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In my own experience, the Mormons I have had experience with were loving and sweet. They are fed some lies that they are taught from the time they are toddlers. Their Salt Lake City leaders are daemons in my opinion. The Book of Mormon, and Joseph Smith's story 'could' be plausible perhaps? The Polygamy is right from the pit in my estimation, though there were places in the OT where it was practiced, so it is not my strongest objection.

They say that God is "flesh and bone", and that some of their members will one day be Gods. They also say that the word of the Prophet overrules the Bible.

I am torn about my feelings about Mormon belief. God will judge them. It is not my job.

Gwendolynz said:

In my own experience, the Mormons I have had experience with were loving and sweet. They are fed some lies that they are taught from the time they are toddlers. Their Salt Lake City leaders are daemons in my opinion. The Book of Mormon, and Joseph Smith's story 'could' be plausible perhaps? The Polygamy is right from the pit in my estimation, though there were places in the OT where it was practiced, so it is not my strongest objection.

They say that God is "flesh and bone", and that some of their members will one day be Gods. They also say that the word of the Prophet overrules the Bible.

I am torn about my feelings about Mormon belief. God will judge them. It is not my job.

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That's the really heartbreaking part for me too. I've known a lot of Mormons and they've been just as nice as you could ever want a person to be. But that won't save them and any time I've tried to talk to them about it they have said they already believe in Christ. But they also believe in works salvation and basically polytheism. It's a little twist on the truth that changes so much that's so important.

Jamdoc said:

That's the really heartbreaking part for me too. I've known a lot of Mormons and they've been just as nice as you could ever want a person to be. But that won't save them and any time I've tried to talk to them about it they have said they already believe in Christ. But they also believe in works salvation and basically polytheism. It's a little twist on the truth that changes so much that's so important.

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In my dotage, I study other belief systems, any one that I hear of. I've been thinking of a University that I could degree from perhaps...

Mormons, and Muslims are sad cases. Mostly I am just interested in 'Abrahamic' belief systems however. My biggest sadness is what religions do to you if you fail and need help. It has taken a long time to get over my hurt and anger about that.

Andrewn said:

The subject of this thread is "who is worshiping the one true God found in the Bible." My comments were about "salvation," which was to say that believing in the one true God may not be related to salvation. One can clearly believe in the God of the Bible and not be saved.

My presupposition is that one could be saved without having the right belief in the Holy Trinity, so long they believe in Jesus as God and Savior. I could very well be wrong. All4Christ wrote that the Nicene Creed is a good gauge. I think that God would not use a Creed as a test for admittance. But, obviously, It's only speculation.

I will leave it at that. After all, I believe in the Nicene Creed and have no intention of defending Mormons or any other heretical sect. The Creed as a redline makes more sense than my presupposition. And it is consistent with the policy of the Christian Forums.

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Well I am Catholic, so obviously I advocate, believe in, and wholly support a creed that explicitly lists the four marks of the Church which are: "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic." Yes I would only hope that this is your canon for your Faith.

JosephZ said:

Personally I believe that Abraham was visited by God in the form of the Son (Jesus) and two angels. There is no indication that Abraham is addressing more than one of the three men when he says "my Lord." In fact, if we read further along in the scripture we have proof, at least to me anyway, that only one of the three men was or could have been the Lord (God).

Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the Lord... (Genesis 18:22)

As you can see from the above verse, the men turned away and went towards Sodom while Abraham remained in the presence of the Lord.

As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the Lord departed, and Abraham returned to his place. Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. And he said, “Now behold, my lords, please turn aside into your servant’s house, and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way.” (Genesis 18:33,19:1-2)

In the above scripture the Lord departs from Abraham and two angels (Two of the three men?) show up in Sodom where Lot addresses them as lords.

In Judaism, all three of the men were angels, Raphael, Michael and Gabriel.

To me it's really hard for me to see the three men who visited Abraham as being God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit in Genesis 18. There's no reason for me to believe that God the Father and God the Holy Spirit would ever come in human form to present themselves to mankind.


That is true, but when the Torah and the Prophet Isaiah say things like "the LORD is one!" and "I am the LORD, and there is none else," that doesn't leave much room for anyone or anything else to be associated with God.


Not really, because at the time of Muhammad there were many Christians who gave the appearance that they were worshiping three different gods. Most often God Himself, Jesus, and Mary. The Qur'an only reinforces the concept found in the Torah that there are no other gods, but God Himself.

It's important to remember that Muslims for the most part reject almost everything found in our New Testament, so they don't accept the clarifications we have on just who God is (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit) that is found in our Bible. The gospels of Matthew, Luke, John, and Mark didn't exist during the time of Jesus' earthly ministry and are not the gospel (Injil) mentioned in the Qur'an that was sent down to Jesus.

"We sent Jesus son of Mary, fulfilling the Torah that preceded him; and We gave him the Gospel, wherein is guidance and light, and confirming the Torah that preceded him, and guidance and counsel for the righteous." (Qur'an 5:46)

In Islam, Muslims are taught that the gospel sent down to Jesus confirms the Torah when it says "the LORD is one!" (Deuteronomy 6:4)

While the Qur'an does explicitly say that God is not three, it's saying this to reaffirm and further clarify the scriptures found in the Torah according to the teachings of Islam.

None of this, however, changes who the one true God is and who Jews and Muslims believe with all their heart and mind that they are worshiping. To me it is laughable to even think that Jews aren't worshiping the one true God found in the Bible, and equally as laughable to think that Muslims aren't as well since they, like the Jews, can trace their lineage back to Abraham and put their faith into the same God that Abraham did. There's a reason why Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are called the Abraham faiths. Same Abraham. Same God. Seems pretty simple to me.

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Well I admit that it seems that the Father and Holy Spirit would not appear as men, and given the context of the the two angels then arriving at Sodom and Gomorrah that I must conclude that the three then were only angels. That Abraham referred to the one angel that remained as "Lord", again, I now admit giving further thought that this is no explicit proof for YHWH's presence before Abraham, and further loses the "threeness" arguement.
That said, removing my entire arguement from Genesis 18 still does not defend the difference of the Old Testament not saying God is not three, while the quran explicitly states that God is not 3. The difference there is still blatant.
Furthermore, never in the history of Christianity was there ever a sect of Christian's that held that St.Mary was one person of the Trinity. Never. Show me one reference of a Christian heretical sect that believed that St.Mary was one of the three persons of the Trinity.
This proves that the god of muhammad is not all knowing, because allah didn't even know what the Christian's believed and taught concerning the Godhead at the time of muhammad.
Even if there were some heretical sect of Christian's that believed St.Mary was one of the Trinity, wouldn't God address the the larger majority of Christian's in what they believed concerning the Trinity? If allah was all knowing wouldnt he get it right, and accurately state what it was that the Christian's were getting so wrong concerning the persons of the Trinity?
On this point then alone this proves that the god of muhammad is not all knowing, and therefore cannot be the God of Abraham who is most certainly all knowing. We could agree there are many evidences that the God of Abraham is all knowing. God of Abraham is an omniscient God. God of muhammad is not all knowing. This alone proves that they worship not the same God.
Beyond this muslims cannot give one verse proving that their god is all knowing. Not one. In fact all the evidence is to the contrary, that the god of muhammad has the equivalent insight and intelligence to that of a 6th century arabian merchant and slave trader.

Deus Vult! said:

never in the history of Christianity was there ever a sect of Christian's that held that St.Mary was one person of the Trinity. Never. Show me one reference of a Christian heretical sect that believed that St.Mary was one of the three persons of the Trinity.

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In my last post I said "at the time of Muhammad there were many Christians who gave the appearance that they were worshiping three different gods. Most often God Himself, Jesus, and Mary." I didn't say that there were actual Christians that were doing this, although there may have been some, who knows for sure. Sorry about the confusion.

Even today though, there are some who believe that there are Christians who worship Mary. In fact, there are plenty of posts and threads on this forum where this is discussed, so it is easy to see how an illiterate man like Muhammad and others like him in his day would come to such a conclusion as misguided as it may be.

Deus Vult! said:

Even if there were some heretical sect of Christian's that believed St.Mary was one of the Trinity, wouldn't God address the the larger majority of Christian's in what they believed concerning the Trinity? If allah was all knowing wouldnt he get it right, and accurately state what it was that the Christian's were getting so wrong concerning the persons of the Trinity?

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God does this in the Qur'an, but as a Christian I believe that the Qur'an was written by a false prophet and should not be taken as God's word.

Deus Vult! said:

God of Abraham is an omniscient God. God of muhammad is not all knowing. This alone proves that they worship not the same God.
Beyond this muslims cannot give one verse proving that their god is all knowing. Not one.

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There are actually several verses that Muslims can provide that show that God is all knowing.

"It is He who created for you everything on earth, then turned to the heaven, and made them seven heavens. And He is Knowing of all things." (Qur'an 2:29)

"“Glory to You! We have no knowledge except what You taught us. You, only You, are All-Knowing, All-Wise.” (Qur'an 2:32)

"To God belongs what is in the heavens and what is on earth, and God encompasses everything." (Qur'an 4:26)

And in the Zabur (Psalms of David) we find:

"He counts the number of the stars; He gives names to all of them. Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite." (Zabur 147:4-5/Psalms 147:4-5)

There is only one God that fits the above descriptions, and that is the one true God that is found in our Bible.

While we as Christians believe that the Qur'an was written by a false prophet, we must remember that the Qur'an is not the only holy book in Islam. Muslims also follow the teachings found in the Torah and the Psalms which are two of the five books/revelations handed down to the prophets from what is called the Mother of Books in Islam.

Today Muslims still have the Torah, Psalms, and the Qur'an available to them, while the scrolls given to Abraham have long since been lost and the gospel (Injil) given to Jesus is not available as some Muslims believe it's a Lost Book, while others believe it was never written down. There are even a few Muslims that believe the four gospels found in the New Testament contain parts of the gospel that was given to Jesus, but they are in the minority. As long as what is written in versions of the Torah and Psalms that are available today doesn't contradict what is written in the Qur'an, it is accepted by Muslims as truth.

So even if we disregard what is written in the Qur'an completely, since we know without doubt that the Torah and the Psalms are talking about the one true God; Muslims also consider what is written in these two books about God to be true, so how can they be worshiping a different God than the God of the Bible?

JosephZ said:

In my last post I said "at the time of Muhammad there were many Christians who gave the appearance that they were worshiping three different gods. Most often God Himself, Jesus, and Mary." I didn't say that there were actual Christians that were doing this, although there may have been some, who knows for sure. Sorry about the confusion.

Even today though, there are some who believe that there are Christians who worship Mary. In fact, there are plenty of posts and threads on this forum where this is discussed, so it is easy to see how an illiterate man like Muhammad and others like him in his day would come to such a conclusion as misguided as it may be.


God does this in the Qur'an, but as a Christian I believe that the Qur'an was written by a false prophet and should not be taken as God's word.


There are actually several verses that Muslims can provide that show that God is all knowing.

"It is He who created for you everything on earth, then turned to the heaven, and made them seven heavens. And He is Knowing of all things." (Qur'an 2:29)

"“Glory to You! We have no knowledge except what You taught us. You, only You, are All-Knowing, All-Wise.” (Qur'an 2:32)

"To God belongs what is in the heavens and what is on earth, and God encompasses everything." (Qur'an 4:26)

And in the Zabur (Psalms of David) we find:

"He counts the number of the stars; He gives names to all of them. Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite." (Zabur 147:4-5/Psalms 147:4-5)

There is only one God that fits the above descriptions, and that is the one true God that is found in our Bible.

While we as Christians believe that the Qur'an was written by a false prophet, we must remember that the Qur'an is not the only holy book in Islam. Muslims also follow the teachings found in the Torah and the Psalms which are two of the five books/revelations handed down to the prophets from what is called the Mother of Books in Islam.
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Today Muslims still have the Torah, Psalms, and the Qur'an available to them, while the scrolls given to Abraham have long since been lost and the gospel (Injil) given to Jesus is not available as some Muslims believe is a Lost Book, while others believe it was never written down. There are even a few Muslims that believe the four gospels found in the New Testament contain parts of the gospel that was given to Jesus, but they are in the minority. As long as what is written in versions of the Torah and Psalms that are available today doesn't contradict what is written in the Qur'an, it is accepted by Muslims as truth.

So even if we disregard what is written in the Qur'an completely, since we know without doubt that the Torah and the Psalms are talking about the one true God; Muslims also consider what is written in these two books about God to be true, so how can they be worshiping a different God than the God of the Bible?

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You are granting to muslims that which they do not even grant to themselves sir... and the issue is that the quran blatantly contradicts itself to every letter. I would love to unpack it all for you but it is midnight and I have to get up early. But yes, they claim that the Torah and Gospel was sent to Moses and Jesus and then on a dime state that they have been corrupted... To your point about the omniscience of the islamic God, it does not suffice for you to just quote the quran which states that allah is all knowing. This does not prove that allah is all knowing, it only proves that allah - or muhammad - claims this about allah. It does not prove the omniscience of allah but only claims it. The Torah and Gospel not only claim this about God, but actually proves the omniscience of God. The Torah and Gospel but goes beyond the mere claim and proves it with prophecy sir.
It is non sense to say that we worship the same God(YHWH), when one God(YHWH) proves His omniscience and the other god(allah) flat out does not prove his omniscience.
I think we can agree that muslims do believe they are worshipping an all knowing God and One Creator of all. But this does not prove that they are in fact worshipping that same God as the Jews and Christian's.
If one God says white is white, and the other god says black is white, how can you say that this is the same God? It is illogical to conclude that they are the same God.
Again, I believe the only thing we could agree on is that muslims - in their heart and minds - believe they are worshipping the One Creator.
My arguement however is that even until now that same muslim who believes this is unconsciously still a stranger to the One God. By name (referring to Him by the name of the false pre-Islamic deity of "Lah"), by their creed( In denying the Trinity, denying the Sonship and deity of Christ to the Father), by their code(the quran explicitly instructs the muslim to kill Jews and Christian's, to not take them as friends,etc,. And finally by their cult ( they make pilgrimage to Mecca to kiss a black stone, believing that in doing so they will receive forgiveness of their sins, they are to call upon the false gods of "Al-Uzaah", "Al-Lat", and "Manat" - the three goddess daughters of "Lah" as intercessors, believing they must face Mecca and pray 5 times daily,etc.)...

Maybe another dynamic way to approach this question is to ask another: Does it even matter to worship the One true God if doing so does not by that very fact alone grant salvation?
We have St.James who states: "you believe there is One God, you do well, but even the demons believe thus, and tremble."
This I think we could agree would be applicable to this very question?
St.James here I believe is patently stating that it does not suffice to simply believe in the One God and Creator, and that in doing so you are in the Faith of Abraham, the faith that rewards the believer with Heaven.
Even the demons believe in the One God and Creator, the fact is they will be damned regardless.

Deus Vult! said:

yes, they claim that the Torah and Gospel was sent to Moses and Jesus and then on a dime state that they have been corrupted...

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Not all of the scripture found in the Torah or the Psalms is considered to be corrupted in Islam. Only scripture in opposition to what the Qur'an says it is considered to be corrupted. Since "His understanding is infinite." (Psalms 147:4-5) for example doesn't contradict what is written in the Qur'an, it is accepted by Muslims as being truth from God.

As for the gospel being corrupted, while I know there are a few Muslims that accept some of the words of Jesus that are found in the four gospels found in the New Testament, the gospels of Matthew, Luke, John, and Mark found in the Bible didn't exist during the time of Jesus' earthly ministry and therefore can't possibly be the gospel (Injil) mentioned in the Qur'an that was sent down to Jesus.

"We sent in their wake Our messengers, and followed up with Jesus son of Mary, and We gave him the Gospel, and instilled in the hearts of those who followed him compassion and mercy.' (Qur'an 57:27)

The gospel was given directly to Jesus and since the four gospels found in our Bible are historical accounts of Jesus written long after His ascension, this is the reason why the vast majority of Muslims reject the four gospels found in our Bible completely.

Deus Vult! said:

to your point about the omniscience of the islamic God, it does not suffice for you to just quote the quran which states that allah is all knowing. This does not prove that allah is all knowing, it only proves that allah - or muhammad - claims this about allah. It does not prove the omniscience of allah but only claims it. The Torah and Gospel not only claim this about God, but actually proves the omniscience of God.

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Since this is in agreement to what is written in the Qur'an (See my quoted verses in my last post), then it would be accepted as truth by Muslims. I didn't just quote verses from the Qur'an to prove that Muslims believe that God is all knowing, I also quoted a verse from Psalms.

Deus Vult! said:

My arguement however is that even until now that same muslim who believes this is unconsciously still a stranger to the One God. By name (referring to Him by the name of the false pre-Islamic deity of "Lah"), by their creed( In denying the Trinity, denying the Sonship and deity of Christ to the Father), by their code(the quran explicitly instructs the muslim to kill Jews and Christian's, to not take them as friends,etc,. And finally by their cult ( they make pilgrimage to Mecca to kiss a black stone, believing that in doing so they will receive forgiveness of their sins, they are to call upon the false gods of "Al-Uzaah", "Al-Lat", and "Manat" - the three goddess daughters of "Lah" as intercessors, believing they must face Mecca and pray 5 times daily,etc.)...

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The above shows me that your knowledge about Islam and what Muslims believe is quite limited. This probably has a lot to do with why you reject the idea that Christians and Muslims worship the same God.

Deus Vult! said:

Maybe another dynamic way to approach this question is to ask another: Does it even matter to worship the One true God if doing so does not by that very fact alone grant salvation?
We have St.James who states: "you believe there is One God, you do well, but even the demons believe thus, and tremble."
This I think we could agree would be applicable to this very question?
St.James here I believe is patently stating that it does not suffice to simply believe in the One God and Creator, and that in doing so you are in the Faith of Abraham, the faith that rewards the believer with Heaven.
Even the demons believe in the One God and Creator, the fact is they will be damned regardless.

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Below your avatar I noticed it says you are Catholic. Were you aware that the Catholic Church has always recognized that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God? Much of what you have written above goes against the official position of the Catholic Church. For example, the following is from the Lumen gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution of the Catholic Church of the Second Vatican Council: "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind."

Personally I believe that one must believe that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures to inherit eternal life. Muslims and Jews of course reject this and therefore I believe will spend eternity separated from God.

JosephZ said:

Not all of the scripture found in the Torah or the Psalms is considered to be corrupted in Islam. Only scripture in opposition to what the Qur'an says it is considered to be corrupted. Since "His understanding is infinite." (Psalms 147:4-5) for example doesn't contradict what is written in the Qur'an, it is accepted by Muslims as being truth from God.

As for the gospel being corrupted, while I know there are a few Muslims that accept some of the words of Jesus that are found in the four gospels found in the New Testament, the gospels of Matthew, Luke, John, and Mark found in the Bible didn't exist during the time of Jesus' earthly ministry and therefore can't possibly be the gospel (Injil) mentioned in the Qur'an that was sent down to Jesus.

"We sent in their wake Our messengers, and followed up with Jesus son of Mary, and We gave him the Gospel, and instilled in the hearts of those who followed him compassion and mercy.' (Qur'an 57:27)

The gospel was given directly to Jesus and since the four gospels found in our Bible are historical accounts of Jesus written long after His ascension, this is the reason why the vast majority of Muslims reject the four gospels found in our Bible completely.


Since this is in agreement to what is written in the Qur'an (See my quoted verses in my last post), then it would be accepted as truth by Muslims. I didn't just quote verses from the Qur'an to prove that Muslims believe that God is all knowing, I also quoted a verse from Psalms.


The above shows me that your knowledge about Islam and what Muslims believe is quite limited. This probably has a lot to do with why you reject the idea that Christians and Muslims worship the same God.


Below your avatar I noticed it says you are Catholic. Were you aware that the Catholic Church has always recognized that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God? Much of what you have written above goes against the official position of the Catholic Church. For example, the following is from the Lumen gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution of the Catholic Church of the Second Vatican Council: "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind."

Personally I believe that one must believe that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures to inherit eternal life. Muslims and Jews of course reject this and therefore I believe will spend eternity separated from God.

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Not a bad analysis.

JosephZ said:

In my last post I said "at the time of Muhammad there were many Christians who gave the appearance that they were worshiping three different gods. Most often God Himself, Jesus, and Mary." I didn't say that there were actual Christians that were doing this, although there may have been some, who knows for sure. Sorry about the confusion. Even today though, there are some who believe that there are Christians who worship Mary.

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The Jewish Encyclopedia has the following passage:

"The "Gospel According to the Hebrews," which was once held in high esteem, especially in Ebionitic circles, still regards the term "mother" as equivalent to "Holy Ghost" (Origen, Commentary on John ii. 12; see Preuschen, "Antilegomena," p. 4, Giessen, 1901; Henneke, "Neutestamentliche Apokryphen," p. 19, Tübingen, 1904), since in Aramaic, the language of this Gospel and possibly the original dialect of all the Gospels, the noun "ruḥa" (spirit) is feminine (comp. the Gnostic statement ἐντεῦθεν; Φάλτν ἀναδεχΘῆναι μητέρα καὶ υίόν Irenæus, "Adversus Hæreses," i. 271). The Ophites, furthermore, actually taught a trinity of father, son, and mother (Hilgenfeld, "Ketzergeschichte," p. 255); and the fact that the Church father Hippolytus found among the Ophites the Assyrian doctrine of the trinity of the soul (Hilgenfeld, l.c. p. 259) justifies the assumption of a kinship of the dogma of the Trinity with older concepts. The Mandæans also believe ruḥa to be the mother of the Messiah, though they regard them both as demons (Brandt, "Die Mandäische Religion," p. 124, Leipsic, 1889). The original trinity must, therefore, have included a feminine being, since thus alone could the concept of ruḥa have been obtained, and only after this form of trinity had been accepted in Judæo-Christian circles could the Greek τὸ φνεῦμα be regarded as a person, although it then became masculine instead of feminine."

TRINITY - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Deus Vult! said:

wholly support a creed that explicitly lists the four marks of the Church which are: "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic."

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I believe the Church is "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic." I take this statement as basis for believing in "open communion." Others may understand this sentence to mean that their denomination is "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic." But this is completely beyond the scope of the current thread .

Deus Vult! said:

Well I admit that it seems that the Father and Holy Spirit would not appear as men, and given the context of the the two angels then arriving at Sodom and Gomorrah that I must conclude that the three then were only angels. That Abraham referred to the one angel that remained as "Lord", again, I now admit giving further thought that this is no explicit proof for YHWH's presence before Abraham, and further loses the "threeness" arguement.

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But this is not what JosephZ said. He said that the 3rd man was Jesus and I agree with him.

JosephZ said:

Muslims also follow the teachings found in the Torah and the Psalms which are two of the five books/revelations handed down to the prophets from what is called the Mother of Books in Islam.

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Do you have references for this? I'm sure Muslims believe the entire Holy Bible has been corrupted.

JosephZ said:

As long as what is written in versions of the Torah and Psalms that are available today doesn't contradict what is written in the Qur'an, it is accepted by Muslims as truth.

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One might as well say the same thing about the Gospels.

Deus Vult! said:

If one God says white is white, and the other god says black is white, how can you say that this is the same God? It is illogical to conclude that they are the same God.

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This summarizes of the whole conversation. And it shows Satan's subtlety.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God said, ‘You shall not eat of any tree of the garden’?”

Deus Vult! said:

(referring to Him by the name of the false pre-Islamic deity of "Lah")

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You've never proved there was a pre-Islamic deity called "Lah" but you keep repeating this statement. You cannot call Albert, The Bert, just bec his name starts with Al. Similarly, you cannot call Allah, The Lah.

Deus Vult! said:

they are to call upon the false gods of "Al-Uzaah", "Al-Lat", and "Manat" - the three goddess daughters of "Lah" as intercessors,

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The Quran says these 3 are _not_ daughters of Allah. Here is from Surah 53:

19. Have you considered al-Lat and al-Uzza? 20. And Manat, the third one, the other? 21. Are you to have the males, and He the females? 22. What a bizarre distribution.

Deus Vult! said:

Maybe another dynamic way to approach this question is to ask another: Does it even matter to worship the One true God if doing so does not by that very fact alone grant salvation? We have St. James who states: "you believe there is One God, you do well, but even the demons believe thus, and tremble."

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Bingo. I've been writing that the only thing that matters is worshipping God and Christ as God and Savior.

Deus Vult! said:

Well I admit that it seems that the Father and Holy Spirit would not appear as men, and given the context of the the two angels then arriving at Sodom and Gomorrah that I must conclude that the three then were only angels. That Abraham referred to the one angel that remained as "Lord", again, I now admit giving further thought that this is no explicit proof for YHWH's presence before Abraham, and further loses the "threeness" arguement.
That said, removing my entire arguement from Genesis 18 still does not defend the difference of the Old Testament not saying God is not three, while the quran explicitly states that God is not 3. The difference there is still blatant.
Furthermore, never in the history of Christianity was there ever a sect of Christian's that held that St.Mary was one person of the Trinity. Never. Show me one reference of a Christian heretical sect that believed that St.Mary was one of the three persons of the Trinity.
This proves that the god of muhammad is not all knowing, because allah didn't even know what the Christian's believed and taught concerning the Godhead at the time of muhammad.
Even if there were some heretical sect of Christian's that believed St.Mary was one of the Trinity, wouldn't God address the the larger majority of Christian's in what they believed concerning the Trinity? If allah was all knowing wouldnt he get it right, and accurately state what it was that the Christian's were getting so wrong concerning the persons of the Trinity?
On this point then alone this proves that the god of muhammad is not all knowing, and therefore cannot be the God of Abraham who is most certainly all knowing. We could agree there are many evidences that the God of Abraham is all knowing. God of Abraham is an omniscient God. God of muhammad is not all knowing. This alone proves that they worship not the same God.
Beyond this muslims cannot give one verse proving that their god is all knowing. Not one. In fact all the evidence is to the contrary, that the god of muhammad has the equivalent insight and intelligence to that of a 6th century arabian merchant and slave trader.

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Does the Catholic Church teach against what St Augustine taught on the Hospitality of Abraham? Or is it up to the individual to decide?

Augustine taught that the hospitality of Abraham was the Trinity (On the Trinity, Book II, Chapter 10)

But under the oak at Mamre he saw three men, whom he invited, and hospitably received, and ministered to them as they feasted. Yet Scripture at the beginning of that narrative does not say, three men appeared to him, but, "The Lord appeared to him." And then, setting forth in due order after what manner the Lord appeared to him, it has added the account of the three men, whom Abraham invites to his hospitality in the plural number, and afterwards speaks to them in the singular number as one; and as one He promises him a son by Sara, viz. the one whom the Scripture calls Lord, as in the beginning of the same narrative, "The Lord," it says, "appeared to Abraham." He invites them then, and washes their feet, and leads them forth at their departure, as though they were men; but he speaks as with the Lord God, whether when a son is promised to him, or when the destruction is shown to him that was impending over Sodom.

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ETA: FWIW, I just looked at the St Ignatius Catholic Study Bible. The study Bible (found in the footnotes for Genesis 18:2) agrees with St Augustine, St Ambrose and many other saints.

All4Christ said:

Does the Catholic Church teach against what St Augustine taught on the Hospitality of Abraham? Or is it up to the individual to decide?

Augustine taught that the hospitality of Abraham was the Trinity (On the Trinity, Book II, Chapter 10)


ETA: FWIW, I just looked at the St Ignatius Catholic Study Bible. The study Bible (found in the footnotes for Genesis 18:2) agrees with St Augustine, St Ambrose and many other saints.

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As far as I know I have never read any authoritative position from the Magisterium of the Church on Genesis 18 with regards to its allusion to the Trinity. I didn't want to waste any time defending or re-asserting what it is I believe about this passage as I have a solid argument without that reference.
I would rather rest my case on the other evidence I laid out.
Thank you for bringing that to my attention though, if St.Augustine is referencing Gen. 18 for Trinitarian purposes then I am now certain that my argument there still stands, like I said though I am not going to waste time asserting that point. I would rather assert that clearly "allah" is not all knowing, while the God of the Old and New Testaments is.

Andrewn said:

This summarizes of the whole conversation. And it shows Satan's subtlety.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God said, ‘You shall not eat of any tree of the garden’?”

Click to expand...

"You've never proved there was a pre-Islamic deity called "Lah" but you keep repeating this statement. You cannot call Albert, The Bert, just bec his name starts with Al. Similarly, you cannot call Allah, The Lah."

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I most definitely have proved that there was a pre-Islamic deity called "Lah". Just look it up on Wiki. Scroll down that page and look at all the other "deities" of the "ancient Egyptian religion" too. Guess what you will find there? You will also find "Lat" there.
Again,"Al" is not only used for "the" in Arabic, or quranic Arabic.
If that were true then the name "Ishmaal" in the quran would need to be translated as "The Ishma". This is clearly showing us that the "Al" is denoting "deity" just as "El" does for the Hebrew. "El Shaddai", "Elohim", "El Ellyion" are some examples of the names of God used in the OT. "Al" in Arabic is coming from the usage of "El" in the Aramaic.
This is why "Al" is used for the other false gods in the quran itself: "Al-Lat" and "Al-Uzzah". "Al-Lah" is no different. The only reason "Manat" does not have the "Al" in front of the name Islamic scholars will tell you is because this is the angel of death, or goddess of death, and so they leave out the "Al" due to what what is associated with Manat, namely "death".


The Quran says these 3 are _not_ daughters of Allah. Here is from Surah 53:

19. Have you considered al-Lat and al-Uzza? 20. And Manat, the third one, the other? 21. Are you to have the males, and He the females? 22. What a bizarre distribution.

This is also a redaction. The verse was originally this: "Have ye thought upon al-Lat and al-Uzza
And Manat, the third, the other?These are the exalted cranes (intermediaries)
Whose intercession is to be hoped for. (53:19,20)
Are yours the males and His the females?
That indeed were an unfair division! (53:21,22)

Bingo. I've been writing that the only thing that matters is worshipping God and Christ as God and Savior

Andrewn said:

This summarizes of the whole conversation. And it shows Satan's subtlety.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God said, ‘You shall not eat of any tree of the garden’?”

Click to expand...

The Quran says these 3 are _not_ daughters of Allah. Here is from Surah 53:

19. Have you considered al-Lat and al-Uzza? 20. And Manat, the third one, the other? 21. Are you to have the males, and He the females? 22. What a bizarre distribution.

This is also a redaction. The verse was originally this:

"Have ye thought upon al-Lat and al-Uzza
And Manat, the third, the other?These are the exalted cranes (intermediaries)
Whose intercession is to be hoped for. (53:19,20)
Are yours the males and His the females?
That indeed were an unfair division! (53:21,22)

I most definitely have proved that there was a pre-Islamic deity called "Lah". Just look it up on Wiki. Scroll down that page and look at all the other "deities" of the "ancient Egyptian religion" too. Guess what you will find there? You will also find "Lat" there.
Again,"Al" is not only used for "the" in Arabic, or quranic Arabic.
If that were true then the name "Ishmaal" in the quran would need to be translated as "The Ishma". This is clearly showing us that the "Al" is denoting "deity" just as "El" does for the Hebrew. "El Shaddai", "Elohim", "El Ellyion" are some examples of the names of God used in the OT. "Al" in Arabic is coming from the usage of "El" in the Aramaic.
This is why "Al" is used for the other false gods in the quran itself: "Al-Lat" and "Al-Uzzah". "Al-Lah" is no different. The only reason "Manat" does not have the "Al" in front of the name Islamic scholars will tell you is because this is the angel of death, or goddess of death, and so they leave out the "Al" due to what what is associated with Manat, namely "death".