What left must happen before Jesus return

Douggg said:

4. Then Jesus Returns down to earth to end the great tribulation, and bring the Kingdom of God to be the ruling kingdom over the earth.

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And what I have underlined above sees it's fulfillment beginning with the following, for one.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


If---The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever---does not equal---and bring the Kingdom of God to be the ruling kingdom over the earth---then what does it equal?

Handmaid for Jesus said:

We shall see.

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We don't have to wait and see. Shall we allow Jesus himself to describe when He returns? Per his own words in Rev 16:15-16 he comes as a thief right before the battle of Armageddon.

Oldmantook said:

We don't have to wait and see. Shall we allow Jesus himself to describe when He returns? Per his own words in Rev 16:15-16 he comes as a thief right before the battle of Armageddon.

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What's interesting about those verses in particular, is where it's placed in the texts in that chapter. It's placed between the 6th and 7th vial. That's a strange place to place it if Jesus' coming like a thief in the night is supposed to precede all of the vials. This alone shows there is no such thing as a Pretrib rapture.

Revelation 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

DavidPT said:

What's interesting about those verses in particular, is where it's placed in the texts in that chapter. It's placed between the 6th and 7th vial. That's a strange place to place it if Jesus' coming like a thief in the night is supposed to precede all of the vials. This alone shows there is no such thing as a Pretrib rapture.

Revelation 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

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Agree but pretribbers prefer to ignore Jesus' own words.

eye_spy_the_cia said:

Hi,
I was wondering what left still has to happen before Jesus can return. I heard the third temple must be built first, and what else must happen?

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Nothing... Not one thing.. Nada... Zero..

Christ said that He would come as a thief in the night....

He could come in the next minute, hour, day, week, month, year or decade... NOT one prophesy would be contradicted..

All the technology is now here that can have us destroy all flesh on the earth, view the witnesses from anywhere on the earth in real time, a bank system and technology that can mark and track all people, and the world wide governmental corruption with which a one world government can be formed.

So,,,what needs to happen. Not one thing... Are you ready?

Handmaid for Jesus said:

IMHO nothing else needs to happen for the rapture, for it is imminent.Today, tomorrow, many years from now, just live like it will happen in the next few minutes.

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The return of Jesus cannot be imminent as there are a few events that must occur first.

Joel 2:31
The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

Matthew 24
But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

klutedavid said:

The return of Jesus cannot be imminent as there are a few events that must occur first.

Joel 2:31
The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

Matthew 24
But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

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So, you are saying that all the people of the world will see the sun go dark and the moon to blood... and not clue in that Christ comes next.. and then... He will come "unexpectedly" like a thief... to this world that just lost it's sun and has a bloody moon?

Yep, these people will not have a clue... OK.. sure.

Good thing that Christ didn't know the day or the hour.... Sheesh....

JacksBratt said:

So, you are saying that all the people of the world will see the sun go dark and the moon to blood... and not clue in that Christ comes next.. and then... He will come "unexpectedly" like a thief... to this world that just lost it's sun and has a bloody moon?

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All those prophesies refer to the forthcoming Sixth Seal event.
Christ doesn't 'come' then, He SENDS His fiery wrath to destroy His enemies. Amos 1 & 2:1-5, Malachi 4:1, Isaiah 30:25-30, Revelation 6:12-17

DavidPT said:

And what I have underlined above sees it's fulfillment beginning with the following, for one.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


If---The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever---does not equal---and bring the Kingdom of God to be the ruling kingdom over the earth---then what does it equal?

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Hi David, that is the verse.

"Are become" because, at the time of the 7th angel/third woe, God asserts His power in verse 17, to take those kingdoms out from under the rule of Satan and his angels kingdom of Mystery, Bablyon the Great. Destroying Satan's kingdom takes place over a time, times, half time period.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

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Satan and his angels cast down to earth is the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth. Satan will be angry, because his kingdom will be unraveling, and he knows he has but a short time.

Satan and his angels cast down to earth is the Babylon is fallen, is fallen in Revelation 18.

keras said:

All those prophesies refer to the forthcoming Sixth Seal event.
Christ doesn't 'come' then, He SENDS His fiery wrath to destroy His enemies. Amos 1 & 2:1-5, Malachi 4:1, Isaiah 30:25-30, Revelation 6:12-17

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So, I guess you are under the impression that the thief is telling you what week he will be coming?

JacksBratt said:

So, you are saying that all the people of the world will see the sun go dark and the moon to blood... and not clue in that Christ comes next.. and then... He will come "unexpectedly" like a thief... to this world that just lost it's sun and has a bloody moon?

Yep, these people will not have a clue... OK.. sure.

Good thing that Christ didn't know the day or the hour.... Sheesh....

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What I am saying is that the scripture is telling us that events must occur before Jesus returns.

So the return of Jesus cannot be imminent.

Douggg said:

Hi David, that is the verse.

"Are become" because, at the time of the 7th angel/third woe, God asserts His power in verse 17, to take those kingdoms out from under the rule of Satan and his angels kingdom of Mystery, Bablyon the Great. Destroying Satan's kingdom takes place over a time, times, half time period.

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Douggg, speaking of a time, times, half time period, I would think the following is fulfilled during that period. And I'm sure you at least agree with that.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If the 7th trumpet has already sounded prior to these events, why is the question being posed in verse 4---Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

You would think Christ should be the one able to make war with him at the time, yet verse 7 shows this instead----And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

All of this contradicts Revelation 11:15 if Revelation 11:15 is fulfilled prior to the events recorded in Revelation 13:4-8, rather than after those events instead. The 7th trumpet is at the end of a time, times, and half a time, and not prior to or at the beginning of it instead. Revelation 11:19, the last verse in that chapter, tends to prove we are in the time of the vials of wrath once the 7th trumpet sounds. Revelation 13:4-8 tends to prove we are not yet in the time of the vials of wrath during what is recorded in those verses. No one could possibly be saying during the vials of wrath, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?


BTW, I know we are going to continue to disagree about this in particular until the cows come home. I'm seeing nothing but contradictions in the texts involved if Revelation 11:15 is not meaning after the 42 month reign of the beast.

eye_spy_the_cia said:

Hi,
I was wondering what left still has to happen before Jesus can return. I heard the third temple must be built first, and what else must happen?

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Everything we read from the 6th seal to Rev. 19 will happen before His chapter 19 coming.

If you are talking about His coming to the air for His church, NOTHING need happen first. Well, I guess the final martyr (5th seal) must happen - but I think they happen together.

klutedavid said:

What I am saying is that the scripture is telling us that events must occur before Jesus returns.

So the return of Jesus cannot be imminent.

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And, what I am saying is that the coming of the Lord is "like a thief in the night" or... by surprise... Even Christ Himself didn't know...

Yet, to tell you the truth, if the sun went black.... for one... I think people would be expecting something.

There is nothing that has to happen, now. If Christ came tonight... no prophesy would be broken.

But, you deny that. You think that all these things are going to take place.. the anti Christ, the mark, the one world government.... all these markers are going to unfold and people are still going to be surprised?

Sorry you can't wrap your head around the fact that Christ will return, in the clouds, at any moment and in the blink of an eye... things will change.

Then, then you will have all these things unfold like clockwork... and when the sun goes black.... nobody will be surprised...

Then there will be the "second coming" when Christ comes to earth and ends this time.

It's all in the scripture. You interpret it differently..

With your way... there is no surprise, no thief in the night. No.. one left and the other taken...

In fact... nobody would be left.. No believers would remain alive after 7 years of the entire world government trying to find you and kill you for your belief in Christ.

iamlamad said:

Everything we read from the 6th seal to Rev. 19 will happen before His chapter 19 coming.

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By everything I take that to mean that you literally mean everything. Which then means it has to include the coming recorded in Revelation 16, that this coming happens before the Revelation 19 coming.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Obviously Jesus only comes one time as a thief, and not multiple times. So which coming is this meaning since it can't be meaning the coming in Revelation 19 because this would be part of everything we read before getting to chapter 19?

JacksBratt said:

And, what I am saying is that the coming of the Lord is "like a thief in the night" or... by surprise... Even Christ Himself didn't know...

Yet, to tell you the truth, if the sun went black.... for one... I think people would be expecting something.

There is nothing that has to happen, now. If Christ came tonight... no prophesy would be broken.

But, you deny that. You think that all these things are going to take place.. the anti Christ, the mark, the one world government.... all these markers are going to unfold and people are still going to be surprised?

Sorry you can't wrap your head around the fact that Christ will return, in the clouds, at any moment and in the blink of an eye... things will change.

Then, then you will have all these things unfold like clockwork... and when the sun goes black.... nobody will be surprised...

Then there will be the "second coming" when Christ comes to earth and ends this time.

It's all in the scripture. You interpret it differently..

With your way... there is no surprise, no thief in the night. No.. one left and the other taken...

In fact... nobody would be left.. No believers would remain alive after 7 years of the entire world government trying to find you and kill you for your belief in Christ.

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Christ may return like a thief at night but that does not apply to Christians. We are waiting for His return.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-4
For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief.

There is nothing that has to happen, now. If Christ came tonight... no prophesy would be broken.

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Christ has already told you that some events must occur before He returns. Yet you persist in this idea that Jesus could return tonight which is contrary to the scripture.

Prophecy would be broken and here is one such prophecy that must be fulfilled before Jesus returns.

Joel 2:31
The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

DavidPT said:

If the 7th trumpet has already sounded prior to these events, why is the question being posed in verse 4---Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

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The 42 months and the time, times, half times are basically the same period, the second half of the years.

But there is technically some difference. The time, times, half times is the time left in the 7 years - (after the 1260 days) and (the amount of earth time that passes as the war in the second heaven takes place).

Because the amount of earth time that passes as the war in the second heaven is not given - it is unknown quantity. So the remainder is called a time, times, half times.

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The 42 months also has factor that makes it not exactly 1260 days. (1260 days) and (3 1/2 days) and (the remainder of 1256 1/2 days - which the bible uses 42 months for that).

The 42 months is the time the beast will rule without being hampered by the two witnesses who will be gone for the second half. The rhetorical question, Who is able to make war on the beast in verse 4, is what the people of the world will be saying because he will have just killed the two witnesses.

The breakdown for the first and second half would look like this.


the first half

1260 days of Revelation 11:3, 12:6


(in) the Second half

first 3 1/2 days Revelation 11:11-12. *the two witnesses leave the earth

seventh trumpet then sounds, war in second heaven (unknown time factor)

42 months, beast rules *unhampered (Revelation 13:5, 11:2)

cast down to earth, a time, times, half times left for Satan, and the demise of his kingdom.

fallen from heaven, at some unknown point in the second half, opens the bottomless pit, in Revelation 9.

Interesting discussion and I look forward to Jesus coming.

eye_spy_the_cia said:

Hi,
I was wondering what left still has to happen before Jesus can return. I heard the third temple must be built first, and what else must happen?

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Jesus said this:
""This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come." (Matthew 24:14).

So we have a job to do.

All this third temple stuff I see as pure speculation and is usually complicated theology that serves as a distraction from the job we have to do.

klutedavid said:

Christ may return like a thief at night but that does not apply to Christians. We are waiting for His return.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-4
For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief.Christ has already told you that some events must occur before He returns. Yet you persist in this idea that Jesus could return tonight which is contrary to the scripture.

Prophecy would be broken and here is one such prophecy that must be fulfilled before Jesus returns.

Joel 2:31
The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

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There are two events.

One when He comes in the clouds to take His bride. At this time "the one who restrains" is also taken out of this world. This allows Satan to take control. This is the time that is mentioned as the "thief in the night".

All the things of revelation unfold after this point, when the church and the Holy Spirit are gone.

The "second coming" takes place when Christ sets foot on the mount of Olives..... After all the events of which you are speaking.

There have been pages of arguments here, for and against pre trib, mid trib and post trib..

Nobody has the right to claim ultimate correctness... So... IMO... nothing needs to happen before Christ takes His bride.... Nothing...

Are you ready?