The God of the Bible

Charlie24 · Dec 28, 2019

JosephZ said:
You said that Isaac was the chosen seed.

That is not correct. Jesus is the seed.

Once again, Islam teaches that Jesus is the Messiah who was sent to the nation of Israel and is a descendant of Isaac. Islam doesn't teach that Jesus is a descendant of Ishmael.

Since Muslims deny Christ as their Lord and Savior, they are not considered children of the promise and will not inherit eternal life. Since this is also true of Jews, according to the analogy you gave earlier, wouldn't they also be worshiping a god other than the God of the Bible?

Islam departed from God long before Christ came.

All4Christ · Dec 28, 2019

Andrewn said:
1Jo 4:2-3 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. And this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming; and now it is already in the world.

The question becomes: What does it mean to "confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh"?

The answer is to trust in the Lord Jesus and in what the NT teaches about who Jesus is and about salvation by His blood. I like the way this is summarized in Col 1:13-20, Phi 2:5-11, Joh 1:1-18, and other passages. What passages do you consider most relevant?

With this in mind, it is easy to isolate certain groups while others may be more debatable. My definition may be open enough to accommodate some non-Trinitarians but certain groups may isolate themselves by condemning Trinitarian Christians or Sunday-worshipping Christians.

May God have mercy on all.

Agreed on this. My definition may be narrower than yours; the Nicene Creed is a good gauge from my perspective.

If the understanding and character of God is changed so much, can it really be the same God - or is it so distorted that it no longer is the God we confess?

All4Christ · Dec 28, 2019

Deus Vult! said:
A "god" or "goddess" would be a "deity". Again I will just point to the obvious. If following your logic then the name Ishmaal in the quran would be transliterated as "the Ishma". Its nonsense. If you dont do youtube that's fine, j wish I could stay away from it at times myself. If I have more time I will try and find a link to a document saying as much as the youtube did. Making sure it is authored by an Arabic scholar.

It’s only nonsense in the English language. Other languages allow for the definite indicator to be used with names. Portuguese and Catalan are two languages that allow for definite articles to be used with proper names. Example: Portuguese “o Pedro fala” has the masculine definite article “o” before the proper name Pedro, but French does not allow for “le Pierre parle” (French definite article is le); Catalan requires the definite article for proper names - i.e. “en Pere parla” (Catalan masculine definite article is en) but English does not allow for for “the Peter speaks”

I definitely find myself to be better off not using YouTube! Much healthier for me imho.

Deus Vult! · Dec 28, 2019

All4Christ said:
It’s only nonsense in the English language. Other languages allow for the definite indicator to be used with names. Portuguese and Catalan are two languages that allows for that. Example: Portuguese “o Pedro fala” has the definite article “o”, but French does not allow for “le Pierre parle”; Catalan allows for “en Pere parla” but English does not allow for for “the Peter speaks“

No, it's non sense when people refuse to admit the truth that is so obviously laid out before them - such as the obvious "Al" means "the" in Arabic non sense.
It is non sense when people try to use what is Holy for unholy purposes. Trying to cover up obvious truths that would save people from erronious teachings and beliefs. There is no "brotherhood" or "communion" between light and darkness, between Christ and Belial. Dissolving the differences between the Christian and the unbeliever by falling back on this "brotherhood of mankind" line of thought leads to religious indifference. Religiously indifferent people will be spewed out of the mouth of the Lord on that Day. Beware.
Out of love for our neighbor the Gospel is preached. If you view the preaching of the Gospel, the edifying of our neighbor, or the correction of error, as a hateful or mean thing to do, you are only exposing yourself as being completely faithless in the Gospel that saves people from hell.

All4Christ · Dec 28, 2019

Deus Vult! said:
No, it's non sense when people refuse to admit the truth that is so obviously laid out before them - such as the obvious "Al" means "the" in Arabic non sense.
It is non sense when people try to use what is Holy for unholy purposes. Trying to cover up obvious truths that would save people from erronious teachings and beliefs. There is no "brotherhood" or "communion" between light and darkness, between Christ and Belial. Dissolving the differences between the Christian and the unbeliever by falling back on this "brotherhood of mankind" line of thought leads to religious indifference. Religiously indifferent people will be spewed out of the mouth of the Lord on that Day. Beware.
Out of love for our neighbor the Gospel is preached. If you view the preaching of the Gospel, the edifying of our neighbor, or the correction of error, as a hateful or mean thing to do, you are only exposing yourself as being completely faithless in the Gospel that saves people from hell.

Did you even read what I said or look at the links? We can’t use the grammar rules for English to be universal.

Either way, the OP asked for us to return to the original subject, so I will stop here on the topic. Just consider doing some research on linguistics and the definite article between various languages.

Deus Vult! · Dec 28, 2019

Charlie24 said:
Islam departed from God long before Christ came.

Islam could not have departed from God long before Christ came. Christ's incarnation in the womb of St.Mary occurred approx. 600 years before the life of muhammad. Your comment shows that you have not so much even cared to do a quick google search on muhammad before committing your thoughts to your post... maybe you were mistaken ? Maybe it was accidental and you meant that God departed Islam long AFTER Christ? Please correct if this was a typo.

Andrewn · Dec 28, 2019

All4Christ said:
My definition may be narrower than yours; the Nicene Creed is a good gauge from my perspective. If the understanding and character of God is changed so much, can it really be the same God - or is it so distorted that it no longer is the God we confess?

"Latter-day Saints believe that God the Father, His Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate personages of the divine Godhead. They believe that all three are one, but one in mission and purpose, not one in the same substance,"

The Nicene Creed and the Nature of God - Mormonism, The Mormon Church, Beliefs, & Religion - MormonWiki

"Like many other Christians around the world, Mormons, also known as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, look to Jesus Christ as their Lord and worship Him as their Savior."

What Mormons Believe about Jesus Christ

If they believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior _and_ harbor no hostility toward Trinitarians, could LDS be saved despite their distorted understanding of God's character?

JosephZ · Dec 28, 2019

Deus Vult! said:
Muhammad claimed that the quran was delivered directly to him from the angel Gabriel by the command of "Allah". Therefore, according to this claim, the logical conclusion is that their god "Allah" told Muhammad to teach his followers that God is not three.

Actually Muhammad got the idea that God is one from the Torah which is also one of Islam's holy books.

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" (Deuteronomy 6:4)

Deus Vult! said:
Anyone can say to follow the God of Abraham, but if right after that they tell them that God is not three this directly contradicts who the God of Abraham is...

In Christianity God = Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit (Trinity).
In Judaism God is one.
In Islam God is one.

Same God, different concepts.

If you are going to make the claim that Muslims worship a different God than the God in the Bible simply because they deny the Trinity, then you must also say this of the Jews.

Deus Vult! said:
dont be surprised by contradictions in the quran, the book is an in depth encyclopedia of contradictions. One only needs to flip through a couple of pages of the quran to see them.

It is through reading the Qur'an, extensive study of Islam, and having countless conversations with Muslims spanning more than three decades that has led me to the conclusion that Muslims are worshiping the same God that is found in the Bible. Even with the contradictions found in the Qur'an, it's not possible to come to any other conclusion if one takes the time to read it and to talk to Muslims about what they believe.

Deus Vult! · Dec 28, 2019

Andrewn said:
"Latter-day Saints believe that God the Father, His Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate personages of the divine Godhead. They believe that all three are one, but one in mission and purpose, not one in the same substance,"

The Nicene Creed and the Nature of God - Mormonism, The Mormon Church, Beliefs, & Religion - MormonWiki

"Like many other Christians around the world, Mormons, also known as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, look to Jesus Christ as their Lord and worship Him as their Savior."

What Mormons Believe about Jesus Christ

If they believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior _and_ harbor no hostility toward Trinitarians, could LDS be saved despite their distorted understanding of God's character?

This is a false presupposition. There are none that can fit this criteria, if they were to fit that criteria they would cease to be mormon. The question is bigger than this though, and that if answered would answer each and every possibility of ones possibility to be saved while not in communion with the ancient Christian Church. This is why Christ left us a Church that would not fail us and would not allow for His flock to be so misled into all sorts of erronious positions. There is a Church that Christ built on St.Peter. Study deeply and prayerfully what this means. Study that God is not the author of such confusion you find non stop outside of the Church among the self proclaimed "churches".

All4Christ · Dec 28, 2019

Andrewn said:
"Latter-day Saints believe that God the Father, His Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate personages of the divine Godhead. They believe that all three are one, but one in mission and purpose, not one in the same substance,"

The Nicene Creed and the Nature of God - Mormonism, The Mormon Church, Beliefs, & Religion - MormonWiki

"Like many other Christians around the world, Mormons, also known as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, look to Jesus Christ as their Lord and worship Him as their Savior."

What Mormons Believe about Jesus Christ

If they believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior _and_ harbor no hostility toward Trinitarians, could LDS be saved despite their distorted understanding of God's character?

Could they? Possibly. I don’t know what God will do in that case, but I won’t assume that He will.

Lord have mercy on all of us.

Deus Vult! · Dec 28, 2019

JosephZ said:
Actually Muhammad got the idea that God is one from the Torah which is also one of Islam's holy books.

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" (Deuteronomy 6:4)

In Christianity God = Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit (Trinity).
In Judaism God is one.
In Islam God is one.

Same God, different concepts.

If you are going to make the claim that Muslims worship a different God than the God in the Bible simply because they deny the Trinity, then you must also say this of the Jews.

It is through reading the Qur'an, extensive study of Islam, and having countless conversations with Muslims spanning more than three decades that has led me to the conclusion that Muslims are worshiping the same God that is found in the Bible. Even with the contradictions found in the Qur'an, it's not possible to come to any other conclusion if one takes the time to read it and to talk to Muslims about what they believe.

Quran explicitly states that God is not 3.
Torah and prophetical books never explicitly state that God is not 3.
If you dont see the difference then I can only pray you do...
The Torah and prophets paved the way to our understanding of the Trinity.
The quran attempts to demolish the Revelation of the Trinity.
The Torah and prophets in every syllable of their holy Script plant the seed that would be in full bloom in Jesus Christ.
You have not devoted 30 years of research into this matter.

JosephZ · Dec 28, 2019

Deus Vult! said:
Quran explicitly states that God is not 3.

Yes, the Qur'an is very clear on that subject.

Deus Vult! said:
Torah and prophetical books never explicitly state that God is not 3. If you dont see the difference then I can only pray you do...

They also never explicitly state that God is three. If one were to read the Torah and the words of the prophets alone it would be easy for them to come to the conclusion that God is one rather than God being in three persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" (Deuteronomy 6:4)

"I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me" (Isaiah 45:5)

I personally believe that there is only one God, but He manifests Himself in three distinct persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Deus Vult! said:
You have not devoted 30 years of research into this matter.

Not totally devoted of course, but my first courses in Islam were taken while in the military in the mid 80's and I have been a missionary working in Muslim communities on the Island of Mindanao and the Sulu Archipelago in the southern Philippines since 2011. Between 1986 and today I have taken numerous courses in Islam from Christian, Islamic, and secular schools of thought and have spent 1/3 of that time visiting and/or living in predominantly Muslim communities and/or countries.

Qwertyui0p · Dec 28, 2019

public hermit said:
I'm probably going to regret jumping in here, but this is a confusing conversation. One side seems to be saying that the word "Allah" is used by adherents of different religions to refer to God, or generic "God." The other side seems to be saying they are not the same God, primarily because adherents of Islam don't accept Jesus as Son of God.

First, arguing that the word "Allah" is used by different religious adherents is not the same as arguing that they all worship the same God. One does not necessarily entail the other. But, things get a bit more tricky. Adherents of Judaism don't accept Jesus as Son of God either, and yet they still worship the same God as Christians, right? So, even if one is going to argue that Muslims worships a "false God," the argument will have to entail more than the fact they don't accept Jesus as Son of God. For if that means they worship a false God, then so do adherents of Judaism. But, no well meaning Christian wants to argue Jews worship a false God, do they?

Do Christians and Jews worship the same God? Nope. - Adam4d.com

Deus Vult! · Dec 28, 2019

JosephZ said:
Yes, the Qur'an is very clear on that subject.

They also never explicitly state that God is three. If one were to read the Torah and the words of the prophets alone it would be easy for them to come to the conclusion that God is one rather than God being in three persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" (Deuteronomy 6:4)

"I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me" (Isaiah 45:5)

I personally believe that there is only one God, but He manifests Himself in three distinct persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Not totally devoted of course, but my first courses in Islam were taken while in the military in the mid 80's and I have been a missionary working in Muslim communities on the Island of Mindanao and the Sulu Archipelago in the southern Philippines since 2011. Between 1986 and today I have taken numerous courses in Islam from Christian, Islamic, and secular schools of thought and have spent 1/3 of that time visiting and/or living in predominantly Muslim communities and/or countries.

Yes, well provided your missionary work was not promoting religious indifference, the faithful can only thank your efforts to bring the truth of Christ to those who dont know Him, or misunderstand Him. That said, getting right to the point: Do Jews practicing Judaism and Muslims practicing Islam deny the Christ? Do they deny the divinity of Christ? If you say yes to that question how can you then conclude that the Jews are worshipping the same God of Abraham, Moses, and all the Prophets?
Beyond that, how can you in good conscience conclude that muslims believe in the same God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob??
How do you square that error with this:
John (8:23-24)
23 But he continued, “You are from below; I AM from above. You are of this world; I AM not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I AM he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

Deus Vult! · Dec 28, 2019

Qwertyui0p said:
Do Christians and Jews worship the same God? Nope. - Adam4d.com

Fantastic contribution to the thread. Loved, loved, loved this link you brought out. I have devoted so much analysis to this particular matter and never thought to reverse the the concept that way. Well done.

JosephZ · Dec 28, 2019

Deus Vult! said:
Do Jews practicing Judaism and Muslims practicing Islam deny the Christ? Do they deny the divinity of Christ?

Yes to both.

Deus Vult! said:
If you say yes to that question how can you then conclude that the Jews are worshipping the same God of Abraham, Moses, and all the Prophets? How can you in good conscience conclude that muslims believe in the same God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob??

Because there is only one God of Abraham; the omnipotent creator of mankind, the heavens, and the earth. Both the Torah and Qur'an instruct man to worship this God alone.

When trying to answer the question as to whether or not Jews and Christians worship the same God as the God in the Bible, it's not important what we believe as Christians, it's what the Jew and the Muslim believe in their hearts and minds. Based on the teachings of both Judaism and Islam a follower of either of these religions will be worshiping the God of Bible because their holy books, the Torah and Qur'an, instruct them to worship the God of Abraham. As Jews and Muslims they may reject the deity of Christ, but that in no way changes who the one true God is.

Deus Vult! · Dec 29, 2019

JosephZ said:
Yes to both.

Because there is only one God of Abraham; the omnipotent creator of mankind, the heavens, and the earth. Both the Torah and Qur'an instruct man to worship this God alone.

When trying to answer the question as to whether or not Jews and Christians worship the same God as the God in the Bible, it's not important what we believe as Christians, it's what the Jew and the Muslim believe in their hearts and minds. Based on the teachings of both Judaism and Islam a follower of either of these religions will be worshiping the God of Bible because their holy books, the Torah and Qur'an, instruct them to worship the God of Abraham. As Jews and Muslims they may reject the deity of Christ, but that in no way changes who the one true God

"Based on the teachings of both Judaism and Islam a follower of either of these religions will be worshiping the God of Bible because their holy books, the Torah and Qur'an, instruct them to worship the God of Abraham."

This is false. Yes it is true that the quran, here and there is injected with the statement to worship the God of Abraham. But it is a blank teaching that means absolutely nothing, because a few pages later -even verses later- the quran explicitly states to deny that God is 3, to deny that the Christ is divine, etc, etc. Again I will circle back to Genesis (18:1-3), here you have the Sacred Scripture telling us that the Lord came and appeared to Abraham. And wouldn't you know it, God appears to him in 3 persons. Abraham recognized these 3 as his Lord. Abraham falls down in worship before them as before a singular entity. Thus he calls them "my Lord", not "my Lords". Therefore Abraham recognized that his One Lord is also three persons... Even Moses recognized the same when the Lord told Moses that He is the "God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob". Abraham literally means "Father of many nations", Isaac meaning "Laughter", and Jacob meaning "to follow". Therefore the God of Abraham (the Father), the God of Issac (the Son)-With whom the Father called the Beloved and was well pleased - and the God of Jacob (The Holy Spirit) -who was promised by Jesus "to follow" His death and resurrection. Moses believed in the God Abraham, that He is One God and yet also the God of 3 in complete unity.
But again my point would be this: the jews practicing Judaism do not have in their Scripture an outright statement denying the Trinity.
The muslims are in an altogether unique dilemma because the quran outright states that the Godhead is not a Trinity. This is the problem. The quran goes beyond just reaffirming what is found in the Torah regarding the "oneness" of God. The quran goes beyond that to explicitly state that God is not 3! This is an altogether different dimension of thought. The quran leaves no ability for God to be 3 by explicitly stating that God isn't.
Do you see this important distinction?

Deus Vult! · Dec 29, 2019

JosephZ said:
Yes to both.

Because there is only one God of Abraham; the omnipotent creator of mankind, the heavens, and the earth. Both the Torah and Qur'an instruct man to worship this God alone.

When trying to answer the question as to whether or not Jews and Christians worship the same God as the God in the Bible, it's not important what we believe as Christians, it's what the Jew and the Muslim believe in their hearts and minds. Based on the teachings of both Judaism and Islam a follower of either of these religions will be worshiping the God of Bible because their holy books, the Torah and Qur'an, instruct them to worship the God of Abraham. As Jews and Muslims they may reject the deity of Christ, but that in no way changes who the one true God is.

"Based on the teachings of both Judaism and Islam a follower of either of these religions will be worshiping the God of Bible because their holy books, the Torah and Qur'an, instruct them to worship the God of Abraham."

This is false. Yes it is true that the quran, here and there is injected with the statement to worship the God of Abraham. But it is a blank teaching that means absolutely nothing, because a few pages later -even verses later- the quran explicitly states to deny that God is 3, to deny that the Christ is divine, etc, etc. Again I will circle back to Genesis (18:1-3), here you have the Sacred Scripture telling us that the Lord came and appeared to Abraham. And wouldn't you know it, God appears to him in 3 persons. Abraham recognized these 3 as his Lord. Abraham falls down in worship before them as before a singular entity. Thus he calls them "my Lord", not "my Lords". Therefore Abraham recognized that his One Lord is also three persons... Even Moses recognized the same when the Lord told Moses that He is the "God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob". Abraham literally means "Father of many nations", Isaac meaning "Laughter", and Jacob meaning "to follow". Therefore the God of Abraham (the Father), the God of Issac (the Son)-With whom the Father called the Beloved and was well pleased - and the God of Jacob (The Holy Spirit) -who was promised by Jesus "to follow" His death and resurrection. Moses believed in the God Abraham, that He is One God and yet also the God of 3 in complete unity.
But again my point would be this: the jews practicing Judaism do not have in their Scripture an outright statement denying the Trinity.
The muslims are in an altogether unique dilemma because the quran outright states that the Godhead is not a Trinity. This is the problem. The quran goes beyond just reaffirming what is found in the Torah regarding the "oneness" of God. The quran goes beyond that to explicitly state that God is not 3! This is an altogether different dimension of thought. The quran leaves no ability for God to be 3 by explicitly stating that God isn't.
Do you see this important distinction?

JosephZ · Dec 29, 2019

Deus Vult! said:
Again I will circle back to Genesis (18:1-3), here you have the Sacred Scripture telling us that the Lord came and appeared to Abraham. And wouldn't you know it, God appears to him in 3 persons. Abraham recognized these 3 as his Lord. Abraham falls down in worship before them as before a singular entity. Thus he calls them "my Lord", not "my Lords". Therefore Abraham recognized that his One Lord is also three persons...

Personally I believe that Abraham was visited by God in the form of the Son (Jesus) and two angels. There is no indication that Abraham is addressing more than one of the three men when he says "my Lord." In fact, if we read further along in the scripture we have proof, at least to me anyway, that only one of the three men was or could have been the Lord (God).

Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the Lord... (Genesis 18:22)

As you can see from the above verse, the men turned away and went towards Sodom while Abraham remained in the presence of the Lord.

As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the Lord departed, and Abraham returned to his place. Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. And he said, “Now behold, my lords, please turn aside into your servant’s house, and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way.” (Genesis 18:33,19:1-2)

In the above scripture the Lord departs from Abraham and two angels (Two of the three men?) show up in Sodom where Lot addresses them as lords.

In Judaism, all three of the men were angels, Raphael, Michael and Gabriel.

To me it's really hard for me to see the three men who visited Abraham as being God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit in Genesis 18. There's no reason for me to believe that God the Father and God the Holy Spirit would ever come in human form to present themselves to mankind.

Deus Vult! said:
But again my point would be this: the jews practicing Judaism do not have in their Scripture an outright statement denying the Trinity.

That is true, but when the Torah and the Prophet Isaiah say things like "the LORD is one!" and "I am the LORD, and there is none else," that doesn't leave much room for anyone or anything else to be associated with God.

Deus Vult! said:
But again my point would be this: the jews practicing Judaism do not have in their Scripture an outright statement denying the Trinity.
The muslims are in an altogether unique dilemma because the quran outright states that the Godhead is not a Trinity. This is the problem. The quran goes beyond just reaffirming what is found in the Torah regarding the "oneness" of God. The quran goes beyond that to explicitly state that God is not 3! This is an altogether different dimension of thought. The quran leaves no ability for God to be 3 by explicitly stating that God isn't. Do you see this important distinction?

Not really, because at the time of Muhammad there were many Christians who gave the appearance that they were worshiping three different gods. Most often God Himself, Jesus, and Mary. The Qur'an only reinforces the concept found in the Torah that there are no other gods, but God Himself.

It's important to remember that Muslims for the most part reject almost everything found in our New Testament, so they don't accept the clarifications we have on just who God is (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit) that is found in our Bible. The gospels of Matthew, Luke, John, and Mark didn't exist during the time of Jesus' earthly ministry and are not the gospel (Injil) mentioned in the Qur'an that was sent down to Jesus.

"We sent Jesus son of Mary, fulfilling the Torah that preceded him; and We gave him the Gospel, wherein is guidance and light, and confirming the Torah that preceded him, and guidance and counsel for the righteous." (Qur'an 5:46)

In Islam, Muslims are taught that the gospel sent down to Jesus confirms the Torah when it says "the LORD is one!" (Deuteronomy 6:4)

While the Qur'an does explicitly say that God is not three, it's saying this to reaffirm and further clarify the scriptures found in the Torah according to the teachings of Islam.

None of this, however, changes who the one true God is and who Jews and Muslims believe with all their heart and mind that they are worshiping. To me it is laughable to even think that Jews aren't worshiping the one true God found in the Bible, and equally as laughable to think that Muslims aren't as well since they, like the Jews, can trace their lineage back to Abraham and put their faith into the same God that Abraham did. There's a reason why Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are called the Abraham faiths. Same Abraham. Same God. Seems pretty simple to me.

Andrewn · Dec 29, 2019

Deus Vult! said:
This is a false presupposition. There are none that can fit this criteria, if they were to fit that criteria they would cease to be mormon. The question is bigger than this though, and that if answered would answer each and every possibility of ones possibility to be saved while not in communion with the ancient Christian Church. This is why Christ left us a Church that would not fail us and would not allow for His flock to be so misled into all sorts of erronious positions. There is a Church that Christ built on St.Peter.

The subject of this thread is "who is worshiping the one true God found in the Bible." My comments were about "salvation," which was to say that believing in the one true God may not be related to salvation. One can clearly believe in the God of the Bible and not be saved.

My presupposition is that one could be saved without having the right belief in the Holy Trinity, so long they believe in Jesus as God and Savior. I could very well be wrong. All4Christ wrote that the Nicene Creed is a good gauge. I think that God would not use a Creed as a test for admittance. But, obviously, It's only speculation.

I will leave it at that. After all, I believe in the Nicene Creed and have no intention of defending Mormons or any other heretical sect. The Creed as a redline makes more sense than my presupposition. And it is consistent with the policy of the Christian Forums.

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