What is the Message of Romans 9

d taylor said:

The chapter is about corporate election to service, not individual election to eternal life.

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Were Essau and Jacobs corporate differences or individual? They both came from the same womb

Vicky gould said:

sorry that is not what Scripture says which covenant is the covenant that promise the physical descendants of Israel have anything but judgment coming. The Scripture says without the circumcision done by belief in Christ Israel is no different than unbelieving Gentiles and will undergo the same judgment they will receive. The Land was given to Christ and so has the entire world He created. Read the parable of the tenets they were nothing more than renters

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If you don't believe Paul when he says "all Israel shall be saved" then you can't see the plan of God for Israel. Rom. 11:26

Carl Emerson said:

Is Rom 11:26 a reference to 'spiritual' Israel or all Jews?

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What gives you reason to believe it's a spiritual Israel?

Charlie24 said:

If you don't believe Paul when he says "all Israel shall be saved" then you can't see the plan of God for Israel. Rom. 11:26

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My goodness I believe all Israel will be saved but also according to Jeremiah and Paul not all Israel, Ro. 2:28-29, I ask you to read again and see that those Jews only in the flesh are not the descendants who have anything promised to them but judgment. The covenant that makes this promise of fleshly inheritanc to those who are temporal Jews. Go to Galatians 4 and see the two covenants The Law who is represented byHagar and her son Ishmael. everyone who remains under that covenant will not have any inheritance. The other covenant, Abrahamic covenant have inheritance through Christ.they are Jews both in the flesh and through faith in Christ who is The Son of Abraham represented by the son of the promise Isaac.

rnmomof7 said:

Were Essau and Jacobs corporate differences or individual? They both came from the same womb

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Paul said, God chose Jacob over Esau. But according to Gen 25:23 and Mal 1:1-5, Jacob and Esau represented two nations. The point was that God was free to choose the Jews over the Edomites to serve as the progenitors of the Messiah. This was a vocational choice of one nation over another, not an individual choice about their eternal destinies.

Carl Emerson said:

OK now here is the controversial bit.

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills....
21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory...

I suggested that Judas was appointed to dishonour...

Now... I can hear a chorus of voices saying 'naughty naughty' for thinking that...

However I think that our theology to a large degree is a reflection of our concept of God.

Paul had a radical encounter with Him which would have left deep impressions of His Holiness, Awe, Otherness...

I have had several encounters that have deeply impressed on me the Fear of Him, the Purity of Him, He is the Final Word...

He has the prerogative to do as He wills and we are not to judge.

When you have encounters of this nature you have less issue embracing the God of the OT with the Jesus of the NT.

This intense 'Terrible Love' is our Saviour without compromise, without error, both gentle and unyeilding, forever Just.

Putting it out there...

Comments please.

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God wills all men to be saved, and nowhere in the Bible is there even so much as a hint that God predestines a single person to eternal damnation. If a person's errant use of freewill prevents them from being able to receive the Kingdom of God, then God will work them into Divine providence, in accordance with His unsearchable Wisdom. But God is no respecter of persons, and thus damns no one, not preferring one person for salvation and another for damnation. They do it themselves, in accordance with their own wills. As long as we keep this in mind it is not difficult to understand what the Apostle is communicating in Romans 9-11.

Vicky gould said:

My goodness I believe all Israel will be saved but also according to Jeremiah and Paul not all Israel, Ro. 2:28-29, I ask you to read again and see that those Jews only in the flesh are not the descendants who have anything promised to them but judgment. The covenant that makes this promise of fleshly inheritanc to those who are temporal Jews. Go to Galatians 4 and see the two covenants The Law who is represented byHagar and her son Ishmael. everyone who remains under that covenant will not have any inheritance. The other covenant, Abrahamic covenant have inheritance through Christ.they are Jews both in the flesh and through faith in Christ who is The Son of Abraham represented by the son of the promise Isaac.

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All Israel will be saved when "they see the One they have pierced." Zech. 12:10

This will happen at the second coming.

Charlie24 said:

All Israel will be saved when "they see the One they have pierced." Zech. 12:10

This will happen at the second coming.

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Okay I don’t want this degenerate so I ask the Lord’s blessings on you. Take care

Vicky gould said:

Okay I don’t want this degenerate so I ask the Lord’s blessings on you. Take care

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Thank you, may the Lord's blessing be on you also.

Carl Emerson said:

Having been to Israel I have seen many Jews adamantly rejecting Jesus and showing no signs of being saved.

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Rom. 11:26-27
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Do you believe God can do this?

hi Carl, how are you and was your Christmas gate. Some put the nation ofIsrael on a pedestal and they can do no wrong. Do you read Israel My Glory magazine/ some years ago they were following how the Knesset was at nearly the last point before a law declaring Jewish conversion to Christ made the Aliyah or The Return where you automatically become a citizen off limits to Christian Jews. Christians are subjected too persecution, harassment and the like through the Ultra Orthodox and so on. I don’t know if most Christians how the level of hatred has never decreased. I love Israel as you do. But if their situation was so dire Paul would have given his own salvation if it would only save the people ‘of his flesh” the people of his own race. Just the magnitude of Paul going to do that speaks volumes of what is coming on the Jews in the flesh only. I always look forward to your posts and this one did not disappoint. Thanks!!

As a Christian, I believe it is referring to God's predestination of salvation and human events. The Lord could have created the world and interacted with it in any way He saw fit, as He is omniscient, and He chose to create the world in this fashion, knowing there would be millions who would be godless sinners and refuse to repent and come to Jesus. It was part of His plan.

Proverbs 16:4 - The Lord has made all for Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Carl Emerson said:

So the renting of the temple vail was God acting with respect to the removal of priestly authority because of Christ's high priestly reign, and an end to the consequences of the Law but not an end to covenant?

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I don't see anything in the context that explains the symbol, so we'll have to depend upon the apparent meaning. The most direct seems to be ending the authority of the Temple. This is expressed differently in John, in which Jesus is shown as the new temple. The purpose of the Temple was at least twofold: approaching God and forgiveness of sins. Both are taken over by Jesus.

By implication you could say that the authority of the priests were ended, since they are sort of agents of the Temple.

But the covenant is something else. Ultimately it's God's commitment to his people. The Temple is one manifestation of it, but that covenant existed before the Temple. So I don't see that this implies an end to the covenant.

Similarly, the Law existed before the Temple. However you interpret Paul (and I think he says that one function of the Law has been taken over by Christ, but not that it's abolished), I don't think this passage talks about ending the Law.

All Israel will be saved, that is speaking to the ones alive at the Messiahs second coming. It does not mean all Israel of all time.

Romans 9 through 11 is about Israel.


Romans 9 New King James Version (NKJV)
Israel’s Rejection of Christ
9 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Purpose
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Justice
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As He says also in Hosea:

“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”

29 And as Isaiah said before:

“Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

Present Condition of Israel
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

Carl Emerson said:

The question is - is He doing it now?

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No, Gentiles are still being saved. The fullness hasn't happened yet. The Antichrist will be revealed. Then only Jews will come into the Church.

I haven't read the thread, so I'm only assuming what your question was.