What is the Message of Romans 9

Maria Billingsley

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So God predestined people for destruction and we cannot question it?
Your question is a Calvanistic approach to Romans 9. God does not predestine destruction for mankind. He gives everyone free will and with that free will comes the choice to have faith or no faith. Abraham was faithful as well as a long line of men and women, the remnant. The remnant carried the seed, Jesus Christ of Nazareth through their faithfulness to God.
 
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renniks

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Friends,

I had my understanding of Romans 9 challenged by another member so I thought it would be helpful to open up a discussion on this.

If we can make general comments on what we think Paul was wanting to say.

What is the main message and theme.

I think this chapter raises some issues folks struggle with.
It's about how God brought the plan of salvation about despite Israel's rebellion. And how the gentiles were being saved because they pursued it by faith instead of works. It's not about God choosing individuals for salvation.
 
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danielmears

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Friends,

I had my understanding of Romans 9 challenged by another member so I thought it would be helpful to open up a discussion on this.

If we can make general comments on what we think Paul was wanting to say.

What is the main message and theme.

I think this chapter raises some issues folks struggle with.
The Jews, even though they had the scriptures, were not grasping the true meaning. Christ came and clarified the message, utilizing their own scriptures. That is why the Old Testament is important, the Word was there but the Jewish people were so entangled in the do's and don'ts of the law they missed the deeper meaning. Fear not, neither be dismayed, know God is with you, have faith! So, this really bothered Paul, he so wanted the Jewish people to grasp what the Christ, the annointed one, was saying! As Christ said, he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill the law. Jesus was explaining the power in the Word so the elect and the gentile could truly be children of the living God! There are still amazing things happening in the church, occurring through believers but the media has very little interest in matters of faith it seems..
 
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Vicky gould

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We saved Gentiles are the spiritual seed of Abraham. The Jews are the physical seed of Abraham.

When Israel is saved as Paul said, they will be both spiritual and physical seeds of Abraham.

They will receive both the spiritual promise of God as we, and they will receive the physical promise of God made to their physical father Abraham.

what physical promises will that be from? Covenant if you would. here is part of what Paul says are the physical Jews and their physical Covenant and their end from seeking to be its heirs Galatians 4.

They will receive both the spiritual promise of God as we, and they will receive the physical promise of God made to their physical father Abraham.
 
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Vicky gould

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what physical promises will that be from? Covenant if you would. here is part of what Paul says are the physical Jews and their physical Covenant and their end from seeking to be its heirs Galatians 4.

They will receive both the spiritual promise of God as we, and they will receive the physical promise of God made to their physical father Abraham.
somehow your text and mine got mixed together. I wil change color of my replies in.
 
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jahel

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The question is about God’s righteousness of preparing some vessels for wrath and some for destruction. The difficulty is in viewing the time element from which God could look across the universal element of blessings and recognize that some of His creatures would accept His mercy and others wouldn’t. In His knowledge of that He could lay plans for each and they themselves could determine whether they are being prepared as which vessel.

20A large house contains not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay. Some indeed are for honorable use, but others are for common use. 21So if anyone cleanses himself of what is unfit, he will be a vessel for honor: sanctified, useful to the Master, and prepared for every good work.

The call goes to Jews and Gentiles and they become reconcilled as one in Christ.

14For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace…

Only a remnant of the sand of the sea will be saved. 27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; 28FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY.” The purpose of God must be carried out despite the failure of mankind, “23So the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the highways and the hedges and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full.
 
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Charlie24

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somehow your text and mine got mixed together. I wil change color of my replies in.
I will try to explain this.

God made Abraham a promise of a physical land. This land spreads from the Nile river to the Euphrates in Iraq, from half of Syria well into Jordan.

This land will be given to Abraham's descendants.

In Gal. 3:16, Paul said that the promises made to Abrahams seed is one seed, which is Christ.

Christ is a physical descendant of Abraham, and is both God and man. In Him is the spiritual seed and the physical seed.

In the spiritual side of Christ rests the promise of all who will believe are Abrahams spiritual seed.

In the physical side of Christ rests the promise to Abraham of this physical land promise to his physical descendants.
 
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Loversofjesus_2018

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Lets explore this...

At what point did Judas harden his heart against Christ?

At that point God sealed his hardened heart eternally.

Does God have complete foreknowledge?

Did He know this would happen?

Was Judas then created for ignoble purpose?

Not a popular view but I say yes...

Judas in so doing fulfilled prophetic truth declared in ancient times.

However - today is the day of salvation.

Do not harden your heart against God and His Son Jesus. He may seal your decision. We get one shot at this... We need to be in repentance before him at all times.
So I have a question about this? You said “not a popular view”... I’m clearly not as knowledgeable as you or some of the others on the forums. I don’t ask as many questions anymore because people aren’t all that helpful and loving on the forums but you have always seemed respectful so I will ask you. As I said before I don’t know as much but I try and make sure I’m at least thinking does this make sense... And I can’t help but to wonder how it makes sense for people to hold different views about something as important as the nature of God. In one view he creates Judas to be basically be condemned? How can this be? An all loving God? Jesus? How does one make sense out of this view. Thanks
 
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Carl Emerson

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Regarding "Free Will" I find it interesting that John dismisses salvation being a decision of the will...

John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

So the emphasis on decision is misplaced.

He draws us, we desire Him, but His will and power effects our salvation. We can ask for it but the doing of it is His business. This is Grace. His choosing us. His saving us.

Matt 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Just as we desire Him and He permanently indwells us by His Love - we can refuse Him, become hardened in heart and He permanently seals us as separated from His Love.

This is what happened to Judas and God foreknew this would be his choice.

Heb 4:7 “...Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.”
 
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Charlie24

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I will try to explain this.

God made Abraham a promise of a physical land. This land spreads from the Nile river to the Euphrates in Iraq, from half of Syria well into Jordan.

This land will be given to Abraham's descendants.

In Gal. 3:16, Paul said that the promises made to Abrahams seed is one seed, which is Christ.

Christ is a physical descendant of Abraham, and is both God and man. In Him is the spiritual seed and the physical seed.

In the spiritual side of Christ rests the promise of all who will believe are Abrahams spiritual seed.

In the physical side of Christ rests the promise to Abraham of this physical land promise to his physical descendants.

What is amazing about the New Covenant is that God made this covenant with man, but it was the Man Christ Jesus. It can never be broken as the Old Covenant was broken by man before the ink dried, so to speak.

This is why the scripture says that this covenant will be an everlasting covenant. It's between God and the man Christ.
 
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bling

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Friends,

I had my understanding of Romans 9 challenged by another member so I thought it would be helpful to open up a discussion on this.

If we can make general comments on what we think Paul was wanting to say.

What is the main message and theme.

I think this chapter raises some issues folks struggle with.
).





Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.



The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!



This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).



Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?



If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?



This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.



Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”



Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual (this “letter” is written to Christians and not non-Christians)?



Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?



Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in first century Rome?



Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?



The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).



How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.



Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.



Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!



The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.



If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potter’s signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Important to note is the fact: the dishonorable vessel can cleanse themselves and become vessels of honor.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.
 
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Carl Emerson

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So I have a question about this? You said “not a popular view”... I’m clearly not as knowledgeable as you or some of the others on the forums. I don’t ask as many questions anymore because people aren’t all that helpful and loving on the forums but you have always seemed respectful so I will ask you. As I said before I don’t know as much but I try and make sure I’m at least thinking does this make sense... And I can’t help but to wonder how it makes sense for people to hold different views about something as important as the nature of God. In one view he creates Judas to be basically be condemned? How can this be? An all loving God? Jesus? How does one make sense out of this view. Thanks

Well the way I look at it is that we can either hear God's voice and desire Him or hear God's voice and resist - even harden. Now God foreknew the outcome regarding Judas, He knew Judas would resist His voice, become hardened, so He respected his decision and sealed his choice. So I see that being saved is God's choosing but being condemned is man's choosing.

I hope that helps, and thanks for your kind words.
 
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What is amazing about the New Covenant is that God made this covenant with man, but it was the Man Christ Jesus. It can never be broken as the Old Covenant was broken by man before the ink dried, so to speak.

This is why the scripture says that this covenant will be an everlasting covenant. It's between God and the man Christ.
Remember, the covenant with Abraham was everlasting (Gen 17:7) Indeed so was the covenant with Noah (Gen 9:8-17), which covers all of mankind. That's why many of us consider the new covenant to be really a new way of carrying out a commitment by God that was already there to include all of mankind in his people.

Furthermore, one of the major points in Romans is that the original covenant with the Jews, while broken from the human end, was still in effect, because God was still committed to them.
 
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rnmomof7

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Friends,

I had my understanding of Romans 9 challenged by another member so I thought it would be helpful to open up a discussion on this.

If we can make general comments on what we think Paul was wanting to say.

What is the main message and theme.

I think this chapter raises some issues folks struggle with.


I believe it points to the sovereignty of God in all things.. He as the creator determine the form, the use and the end of all things
 
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rnmomof7

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OK now here is the controversial bit.

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills....
21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory...

I suggested that Judas was appointed to dishonour...

Now... I can hear a chorus of voices saying 'naughty naughty' for thinking that...

However I think that our theology to a large degree is a reflection of our concept of God.

Paul had a radical encounter with Him which would have left deep impressions of His Holiness, Awe, Otherness...

I have had several encounters that have deeply impressed on me the Fear of Him, the Purity of Him, He is the Final Word...

He has the prerogative to do as He wills and we are not to judge.

When you have encounters of this nature you have less issue embracing the God of the OT with the Jesus of the NT.

This intense 'Terrible Love' is our Saviour without compromise, without error, both gentle and unyeilding, forever Just.

Putting it out there...

Comments please.

I believe as you state Judas was "appointed" (ordained) to "dishonor" ...He was a part of Gods salvation plan ... Your use of Paul is correct in my view..
 
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Vicky gould

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I will try to explain this.

God made Abraham a promise of a physical land. This land spreads from the Nile river to the Euphrates in Iraq, from half of Syria well into Jordan.

This land will be given to Abraham's descendants.

In Gal. 3:16, Paul said that the promises made to Abrahams seed is one seed, which is Christ.

Christ is a physical descendant of Abraham, and is both God and man. In Him is the spiritual seed and the physical seed.

In the spiritual side of Christ rests the promise of all who will believe are Abrahams spiritual seed.

In the physical side of Christ rests the promise to Abraham of this physical land promise to his physical descendants.
sorry that is not what Scripture says which covenant is the covenant that promise the physical descendants of Israel have anything but judgment coming. The Scripture says without the circumcision done by belief in Christ Israel is no different than unbelieving Gentiles and will undergo the same judgment they will receive. The Land was given to Christ and so has the entire world He created. Read the parable of the tenets they were nothing more than renters
 
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Carl Emerson

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Remember, the covenant with Abraham was everlasting (Gen 17:7) Indeed so was the covenant with Noah (Gen 9:8-17), which covers all of mankind. That's why many of us consider the new covenant to be really a new way of carrying out a commitment by God that was already there to include all of mankind in his people.

Furthermore, one of the major points in Romans is that the original covenant with the Jews, while broken from the human end, was still in effect, because God was still committed to them.

So the renting of the temple vail was God acting with respect to the removal of priestly authority because of Christ's high priestly reign, and an end to the consequences of the Law but not an end to covenant?
 
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