When did the Old Covenant truly "disappear" and end?

mkgal1 · Dec 28, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
Did you forget the last two?

When is "the last day" of "the last days"?
What occurs on "the last day" of "the last days"?

sovereigngrace said:
I am honestly not looking a thesis. Could you give me simple answers to those last three questions I’ve just asked please?

"Simple answers" aren't my strength.

When is "the last day" of "the last days"? The day Herod's temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

What occurs on "the last day" of "the last days"? This, I believe, was the fulfillment of the parable of the Wheat and the Tares; it was also when the Feast of Atonement was complete.....meaning that salvation was complete; it was the Day of the Lord; the rest that was promised to the Church at Thessalonika was given, the gospel was spread unopposed; the promise of His coming was fulfilled; Israel was restored (although not in the way that was expected) this was a spiritual restoration; I believe this was when Jesus was then enthroned on the throne of David (His enemies had been made His footstools); it was the fulfillment of Daniel 2:44; it was the fulfillment of the parable of the Wicked Tenants; fulfillment of 2 Peter 3:11...."all these things dissolved"; fulfillment of a new creation (is all I can come up with at this moment).

sovereigngrace · Dec 28, 2019

mkgal1 said:
"Simple answers" aren't my strength.

When is "the last day" of "the last days"? The day Herod's temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

What occurs on "the last day" of "the last days"? This, I believe, was the fulfillment of the parable of the Wheat and the Tares; it was also when the Feast of Atonement was complete.....meaning that salvation was complete; it was the Day of the Lord; the rest that was promised to the Church at Thessalonika was given, the gospel was spread unopposed; the promise of His coming was fulfilled; Israel was restored (although not in the way that was expected) this was a spiritual restoration; I believe this was when Jesus was then enthroned on the throne of David (His enemies had been made His footstools); it was the fulfillment of Daniel 2:44; it was the fulfillment of the parable of the Wicked Tenants; fulfillment of 2 Peter 3:11...."all these things dissolved"; fulfillment of a new creation (is all I can come up with at this moment).

Ok. Thanks. I have a lot to address.

mkgal1 · Dec 28, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
Ok. Thanks. I have a lot to address.

I told you it's a HUGE topic

......and "simple answers" aren't where my strong muscles are.

claninja · Dec 28, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
When did the old covenant end?

Its ending began at the cross (somewhere between 29-33ad). And it dead carcass was completely abolished in 66-70ad

Hebrews 10:9 Then He adds, “Here I am, I have come to do Your will.” He is taking away (present tense verb) the first to establish the second

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

2 corinthians 3:11 For if what is fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which endures!

sovereigngrace said:
When did the new covenant begin?

At the cross (somewhere between 29 -33 ad)

Mark 14:24 he said to them, “This is my blood, which confirms the covenant between God and his people. It is poured out as a sacrifice for many

sovereigngrace said:
When did "the last days" begin?

Around the time of the 1st coming of Christ in the flesh. (somewhere betwee 6bc and 33ad)

hebrews 9:26 If that had been necessary, Christ would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But now, once for all time, he has appeared at the end of the age to remove sin by his own death as a sacrifice.

Hebrews 1;1-2 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son

Acts 2:16-17 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people.

sovereigngrace said:
When will "the last days" finish?

The last days of "old covenant age" or "this age" ended at the destruction of the temple (somewhere around 66-70ad)

Hebrews 8:13 When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear.

Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

sovereigngrace said:
When is the "end of the age"?

1st coming of Jesus to put away sin at the cross leading up to the destruction of the temple. (from as early as 6bc to 70ad)

hebrews 9:26 If that had been necessary, Christ would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But now, once for all time, he has appeared at the end of the age to remove sin by his own death as a sacrifice.

Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come

sovereigngrace said:
When is the day of redemption?

Near the time of the events of the olivet discourse (wars and rumors of wars, persecution, famine, earthquake, Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, and the destruction of the temple, sign of the son of man appearing in heaven)

Luke 21:28 Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

sovereigngrace said:
When did "this age" arrive?

Creation I suppose. Death from Adam and the law = this age. being given eternal life and being raised up on the last day through Christ = age to come.

sovereigngrace said:
When does "this age" end?

Around the time of the destruction of the temple (66 - 70ad)

Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age

sovereigngrace said:
When do the new heavens and new earth arrive?

at the passing away of the old heavens and old earth (which I don't interpret as literal; so around 66-70ad)

Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more

sovereigngrace said:
When did the kingdom of God begin?

At Jesus' ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and sending of the Spirit (anywhere from 26ad to 33ad)

Luke 17:20-21 When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst. ”

Colossians 1:13 He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.

sovereigngrace said:
When does "the age to come" arrive?

Around the time of the resurrection of the dead after the events of the olivet discourse (around 66-70ad)

luke 20:35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage,

sovereigngrace said:
When is "the last day" of "the last days"?

Coming of Christ in judgment on Israel (around 66-70ad)

sovereigngrace said:
What occurs on "the last day" of "the last days"?

The resurrection (around 66-70ad)

John 6:54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day

Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God that they themselves cherish, that there is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

sovereigngrace · Dec 28, 2019

mkgal1 said:
When is the "end of the age"?

I believe that's just another way of expressing "last days". There were only two "ages" in the Hebrew understanding (and written in the biblical text) - "this age" and the "age to come". The New Testament was written in the transition time between the two ages (in my belief). I'm of the belief that we are now in "the New Covenant age" (what was future to the NT authors). It's an eternal age of Christ that has no end.

Please clarify/enlarge? I cannot determine when you think this is.

sovereigngrace · Dec 28, 2019

mkgal1 said:
What occurs on "the last day" of "the last days"?

This, I believe, was the fulfillment of the parable of the Wheat and the Tares; it was also when the Feast of Atonement was complete.....meaning that salvation was complete; it was the Day of the Lord; the rest that was promised to the Church at Thessalonika was given, the gospel was spread unopposed; the promise of His coming was fulfilled; Israel was restored (although not in the way that was expected) this was a spiritual restoration; I believe this was when Jesus was then enthroned on the throne of David (His enemies had been made His footstools); it was the fulfillment of Daniel 2:44; it was the fulfillment of the parable of the Wicked Tenants; fulfillment of 2 Peter 3:11...."all these things dissolved"; fulfillment of a new creation (is all I can come up with at this moment).

Please clarify/enlarge? I cannot determine when you think this is.

mkgal1 · Dec 28, 2019

claninja said:
The resurrection (around 66-70ad)

John 6:54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day

Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God that they themselves cherish, that there is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

I agree. I expect this will get a lot of other posters caught off guard (and will most likely get misunderstood) but most of the references to "resurrection" in the Bible (that I can think of) are in reference to our spiritual rebirth. Our physical resurrection - as I understand it - was always understood by those in ancient Judaism (think of when the sister of Lazarus, Mary, made her comment about seeing her brother "on the last day"). The idea of a spiritual rebirth was foreign to them, however (like the exchange between Jesus and Nicodemus). Just as this passage demonstrates - most Bible references to "resurrection" are about our new eternal life and Christ Jesus' reversal of the (spiritual) death that came in the Garden.

mkgal1 · Dec 28, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
Please clarify/enlarge? I cannot determine when you think this is.

The "last day of the last days", I believe, was when the final end to the Old Covenant religious system came to an end - in 70 AD. That was the "Day of the Lord" (one of them). Don't misunderstand, though, I still believe Jesus will come again.....but I believe this was the "coming" that was mostly written of in the New Testament. I also believe in our physical resurrection - just as Jesus was physically resurrected.

mkgal1 · Dec 28, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
Please clarify/enlarge? I cannot determine when you think this is.

Then end of the age - in my belief - is the end of the old covenant age (which, in my belief, was in 70 AD). I also believe there was an overlap period of time where the New Covenant "came in" and the Old was dying (the 40 year transition period - which parallels the 40 years the Israelites wandered after their release from Egypt).

mkgal1 · Dec 28, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
When did "this age" arrive?

Another possibility for when this time stamp could be is when it's recorded that God " Lay the foundations of the earth" in His covenant with the Israelites....when He released them from their captivity in Egypt and formed them in the wilderness:

Isaiah 51:15-16 ~ (NKJV) But I am the LORD your God, Who divided the sea whose waves roared; The LORD of hosts is His name. 16 And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, 'You are My people.'"

sovereigngrace · Dec 28, 2019

mkgal1 said:
I agree. I expect this will get a lot of other posters caught off guard (and will most likely get misunderstood) but most of the references to "resurrection" in the Bible (that I can think of) are in reference to our spiritual rebirth. Our physical resurrection - as I understand it - was always understood by those in ancient Judaism (think of when the sister of Lazarus, Mary, made her comment about seeing her brother "on the last day"). The idea of a spiritual rebirth was foreign to them, however (like the exchange between Jesus and Nicodemus). Just as this passage demonstrates - most Bible references to "resurrection" are about our new eternal life and Christ Jesus' reversal of the (spiritual) death that came in the Garden.

I wonder why??? I wonder why we are having to discuss this in Controversial Christian Theology?

sovereigngrace · Dec 28, 2019

claninja said:
Its ending began at the cross (somewhere between 29-33ad). And it dead carcass was completely abolished in 66-70ad

Hebrews 10:9 Then He adds, “Here I am, I have come to do Your will.” He is taking away (present tense verb) the first to establish the second

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

2 corinthians 3:11 For if what is fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which endures!

At the cross (somewhere between 29 -33 ad)

Mark 14:24 he said to them, “This is my blood, which confirms the covenant between God and his people. It is poured out as a sacrifice for many

Around the time of the 1st coming of Christ in the flesh. (somewhere betwee 6bc and 33ad)

hebrews 9:26 If that had been necessary, Christ would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But now, once for all time, he has appeared at the end of the age to remove sin by his own death as a sacrifice.

Hebrews 1;1-2 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son

Acts 2:16-17 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people.

The last days of "old covenant age" or "this age" ended at the destruction of the temple (somewhere around 66-70ad)

Hebrews 8:13 When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear.

Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

1st coming of Jesus to put away sin at the cross leading up to the destruction of the temple. (from as early as 6bc to 70ad)

hebrews 9:26 If that had been necessary, Christ would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But now, once for all time, he has appeared at the end of the age to remove sin by his own death as a sacrifice.

Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come

Near the time of the events of the olivet discourse (wars and rumors of wars, persecution, famine, earthquake, Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, and the destruction of the temple, sign of the son of man appearing in heaven)

Luke 21:28 Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Creation I suppose. Death from Adam and the law = this age. being given eternal life and being raised up on the last day through Christ = age to come.

Around the time of the destruction of the temple (66 - 70ad)

Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age

at the passing away of the old heavens and old earth (which I don't interpret as literal; so around 66-70ad)

Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more

At Jesus' ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and sending of the Spirit (anywhere from 26ad to 33ad)

Luke 17:20-21 When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst. ”

Colossians 1:13 He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Around the time of the resurrection of the dead after the events of the olivet discourse (around 66-70ad)

luke 20:35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage,

Coming of Christ in judgment on Israel (around 66-70ad)

The resurrection (around 66-70ad)

John 6:54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day

Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God that they themselves cherish, that there is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I will look through this. Can you quickly answer the following?

When is sin eliminated?
When is the sinner eliminated?
When is death eliminated?
When is corruption eliminated?
When is Satan eliminated?
When is marriage eliminated?
When is righteousness introduced?
When is perfection finally introduced?
When is perfect peace finally introduced?
When is incorruption introduced?

sovereigngrace · Dec 28, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Then end of the age - in my belief - is the end of the old covenant age (which, in my belief, was in 70 AD). I also believe there was an overlap period of time where the New Covenant "came in" and the Old was dying (the 40 year transition period - which parallels the 40 years the Israelites wandered after their release from Egypt).

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I will look through this. Can you quickly answer the following?

When is sin eliminated?
When is the sinner eliminated?
When is death eliminated?
When is corruption eliminated?
When is Satan eliminated?
When is marriage eliminated?
When is righteousness introduced?
When is perfection finally introduced?
When is perfect peace finally introduced?
When is incorruption introduced?

mkgal1 · Dec 28, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
I wonder why??? I wonder why we are having to discuss this in Controversial Christian Theology?

Because, most often when people bump into beliefs that are different than they've heard for a long time, it's often viewed as "heretical" right out of the gate - and that causes controversy.

sovereigngrace · Dec 28, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Because, most often when people bump into beliefs that are different than they've heard for a long time, it's often viewed as "heretical" right out of the gate - and that causes controversy.

Can you quickly answer the following?

When is sin eliminated?
When is the sinner eliminated?
When is death eliminated?
When is corruption eliminated?
When is Satan eliminated?
When is marriage eliminated?
When is righteousness introduced?
When is perfection finally introduced?
When is perfect peace finally introduced?
When is incorruption introduced?

Oldmantook · Dec 28, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
Firstly, the old covenant was merely “a shadow of good things to come” (Hebrews 10:1). Hebrews 9:24 describes them as, “figures of the true.” On the other hand, the new covenant is “the very image” (Hebrews 10:1), it is “a better and an enduring substance” (Hebrews 10:34).

Your use of the past tense regarding the O.C. is incorrect. The law IS a shadow of things to come. Jesus himself stated that he did not come to abolish the law...instead to fulfill it. Fulfill mean to make full or complete. The law still exists but it points to Jesus as its fulfillment.

sovereigngrace said:
Secondly, Romans 3:20 tells us: “by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” We here see the truth of universal sinfulness. Hebrews 7:19 makes clear: “the law made nothing perfect.” Galatians 3:21-29 shows us the purpose of the law: “the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”

The law does not justify anyone as it was never meant to do that. Rom 3:29 which you cite tell us the purpose of the law which is to bring knowledge of what constitutes as sin. Thus the law tutored us as to what is sin in our lives in order that we might come to faith in Christ as the Galatians verses state. Note that no where in these two passages does it state that the law has passed away. If the law has indeed passed away as you claim, then there would be no more knowledge of what constitutes as sin today (since through the law comes comes knowledge of sin) and therefore not knowing right from wrong, the unregenerate would have no need to repent of their sins and thus become justified through faith.

sovereigngrace said:
Thirdly, in the old covenant “sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year” (Hebrews 10:3). However, in the new covenant, God promises, “their sins and iniquities will I remember no more” (Hebrews 8:12, 10:17). There was remembrance of sin under the old covenant, whereas there is none under the new.

However you neglect to acknowledge that the sacrificial system was never meant to take away sin in the first place. Heb 10:3 states that the purpose of the sacrificial system was to help remind us of sin; it was a system of remembrance. If the sacrificial system no longer applies, then why is it reinstituted during the Millennium? Hint: as a remembrance.

sovereigngrace said:
Fourthly, Hebrews 10:4 tells us, “For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." Here we see the inferiority of the old covenant described. It couldn’t remove sin. It couldn’t remove guilt. It was imperfect. Under it, “every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God” (Hebrews 10:11-12).

The blood of bulls and goats was never meant to take away sin. You presume that this fact makes it inferior. That is not the case as it serves it's sole purpose which is to remind people people of their sins - not to take away sins. As a result of people recognizing and acknowledging their sin; coming to faith in Christ, God will then no longer remember their sins and inequities. Thus the Old Covenant and New Covenant work hand in hand.

sovereigngrace said:
Fifthly, the old covenant “can never with those sacrifices … make the comers thereunto perfect” (Hebrews 10:1). Hebrews 9:9 tells us, the “gifts and sacrifices” that the priests offered “could not make him that did the service perfect.” The reason being, “For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did” (Hebrews 7:19).

Indeed the New Covenant is a fulfillment of the Old however that does not make the Old inferior as it still points to Jesus as our perfect sacrifice.

sovereigngrace said:
Sixthly, the old covenant “could not make him that did the service perfect, a pertaining to the conscience” (Hebrews 9:9). The conscience remained guilty. With the old rituals “the worshippers … should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year” (Hebrews 10:2-3).

In the Old Covenant the annual sacrifice by the high priest was done to bring remembrance of unintentional sin or sin done out of ignorance (Heb 9:7). In the New Covenant, the Holy Spirit brings conviction/remembrance of sin. The former is fulfilled in the latter. In that sense the New Covenant is certainly better.

sovereigngrace · Dec 28, 2019

Oldmantook said:
Heb 10:3 states that the purpose of the sacrificial system was to help remind us of sin; it was a system of remembrance. If the sacrificial system no longer applies, then why is it reinstituted during the Millennium? Hint: as a remembrance.

Where does Hebrews 10:3 even make any reference to some suppose future millennium, never mind the re-introduction of blood sacrifices again? Jesus was the final sacrifice for sin.

1)Could you show me any Scripture that proves animal sacrifices will be re-introduced as ceremonial memorial sacrifices on the new earth?

2)Where does it teach in the New Testament that we should (or can) sacrifice animals to commemorate Christ's death?

3)Are Christ’s hands and feet not a satisfactory enough reminder of the cross for the inhabitants of the new earth?

4)Does Hebrews 10:1 not make clear that the Jewish ceremonial law was “a shadow of good things to come” not ‘good things that have been’? The ceremonial law is never depicted as looking back but always forward.

mkgal1 · Dec 28, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
Can you quickly answer the following?

When is sin eliminated?
When is the sinner eliminated?
When is death eliminated?
When is corruption eliminated?
When is Satan eliminated?
When is marriage eliminated?
When is righteousness introduced?
When is perfection finally introduced?
When is perfect peace finally introduced?
When is incorruption introduced?

When all is realized.

"Amillennialism: A Brief Sketch of Amillennial Eschatology" by Anthony Hoekema

sovereigngrace · Dec 28, 2019

mkgal1 said:
When all is realized.

"Amillennialism: A Brief Sketch of Amillennial Eschatology" by Anthony Hoekema

Please explain more. Not sure what you are meaning.

mkgal1 · Dec 28, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
Please explain more. Not sure what you are meaning.

I'll have to do that another day, when I have more time, but that link to that article generally explains my beliefs on the eradication of sin.

When did the Old Covenant truly "disappear" and end?

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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