What is the Message of Romans 9

Charlie24

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OK now here is the controversial bit.

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills....
21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory...

I suggested that Judas was appointed to dishonour...

Now... I can hear a chorus of voices saying 'naughty naughty' for thinking that...

However I think that our theology to a large degree is a reflection of our concept of God.

Paul had a radical encounter with Him which would have left deep impressions of His Holiness, Awe, Otherness...

I have had several encounters that have deeply impressed on me the Fear of Him, the Purity of Him, He is the Final Word...

He has the prerogative to do as He wills and we are not to judge.

When you have encounters of this nature you have less issue embracing the God of the OT with the Jesus of the NT.

This intense 'Terrible Love' is our Saviour without compromise, without error, both gentle and unyeilding, forever Just.

Putting it out there...

Comments please.
Yes, I believe you are correct, Judas was appointed to dishonor.

The same way Pharaohs heart was hardened against God. God didn't harden his heart, God gave him over to his hardened heart, that's what Pharaoh wanted and that's what God gave him. The scripture says that Pharaoh was raised up for this cause that the power of God may be revealed.

In Judas' case, he believed that Christ would be the conqueror of Rome. He betrayed Christ to force his hand. After some 3 years of witnessing firsthand the ministry of Christ, he chose to harden his heart against the truth, so God gave him over to his hardness. He also was raised up for this cause.

Back to Paul, I believe the Holy Spirit wants us to understand the plan of God for Israel.

To not understand the plan of God for Israel is not to understand the plan of God in general. This misunderstanding has led to many dangerous false doctrines.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Friends,

I had my understanding of Romans 9 challenged by another member so I thought it would be helpful to open up a discussion on this.

If we can make general comments on what we think Paul was wanting to say.

What is the main message and theme.

I think this chapter raises some issues folks struggle with.
IMHO- This chapter is about the "remnant", the children of the promise. Its starts with Paul's anguish over the rejection of The Messiah by Israel. Paul then explains that true Israel is reserved for the "remnant" only and that through the generations only a remnant remained faithful, these are "of Israel". The seed of Abraham IS Jesus Christ of Nazareth and the children of the promise.
“For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”
Though only a remnant are in the Kingdom there are Gentiles who, even though did not partake from the beginning, are found righteous and worthy to join the Kingdom of God.
It is God's will that this be done for all humanity. He is the potter with the power over the clay.
 
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redleghunter

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OK now here is the controversial bit.

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills....
21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory...

I suggested that Judas was appointed to dishonour...

Now... I can hear a chorus of voices saying 'naughty naughty' for thinking that...

However I think that our theology to a large degree is a reflection of our concept of God.

Paul had a radical encounter with Him which would have left deep impressions of His Holiness, Awe, Otherness...

I have had several encounters that have deeply impressed on me the Fear of Him, the Purity of Him, He is the Final Word...

He has the prerogative to do as He wills and we are not to judge.

When you have encounters of this nature you have less issue embracing the God of the OT with the Jesus of the NT.

This intense 'Terrible Love' is our Saviour without compromise, without error, both gentle and unyeilding, forever Just.

Putting it out there...

Comments please.
It seems we have had similar encounters which confirm the words of God. I believe your view is correct and shows a Sovereign God as revealed in Holy Scriptures. I think our human sensibilities unknowingly impressed upon by culture seem to create a God that is palatable to such influences of the World.

It’s why I recommend everyone read and study the Bible cover to cover each year.
 
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hedrick

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Remember that the overall theme of Romans is justifying Paul’s acceptance of Gentiles into Christianity.

9 starts with Paul describing how upset he is that (some, although that’s only clear from context) Jews have rejected Jesus. But, he says, this isn’t because God has failed, but because God counts descendants of Abraham based on faith, not birth. It also shows that salvation is entirely because of God’s mercy, in this case shown through his call to Gentiles to be his children.

Jews might ask whether it is fair for God to turn from them to the Gentiles. But of course, God can do whatever he wants. And what he wanted to do was to show that justification does’t come through confidence in works of Law, but through faith.

Note however that in the next two chapters it turns out that God hasn’t abandoned Israel. Yes, he was temporarily excluding them because of their confidence in works of the Law, but he hasn’t abandoned them, and his plan is to bring them back into his people, and save all of them.
 
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hedrick

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Paul does not intend to give us a theology of predestination here. That's not his topic. In the course of saying what he wants to say he does make it clear that God is in control. But the fact that God has been carrying out an overall plan aimed at saving everyone doesn't really give us enough information to solve the debate between Calvinists, Arminians, and others.
 
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Carl Emerson

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So God predestined people for destruction and we cannot question it?

Lets explore this...

At what point did Judas harden his heart against Christ?

At that point God sealed his hardened heart eternally.

Does God have complete foreknowledge?

Did He know this would happen?

Was Judas then created for ignoble purpose?

Not a popular view but I say yes...

Judas in so doing fulfilled prophetic truth declared in ancient times.

However - today is the day of salvation.

Do not harden your heart against God and His Son Jesus. He may seal your decision. We get one shot at this... We need to be in repentance before him at all times.
 
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Willing-heart

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When the bible talks about the church of Jesus Christ, it is talking about these people who are remnants and not everybody who belongs to any church. In Romans 11, Paul is making the argument that the remnant are the faithful Jews who are going to come and commit their life to Jesus Christ.

It is true that the people of Israel are favoured by God. The apostle Paul tells us in Romans 9:4-5 that they are descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God adopted them, revealed his glory to them, gave them his law and made a covenant with them. God gave them the privilege of worshipping Him, and they received His wonderful promise of the coming Messiah – Christ Jesus, who himself was born an Israelite. In his anguish for Israel, Paul asks – how can a child of privilege and promise turn out to be a child of prejudice and blasphemy? He answers the question in verse 6 – “It is not because God is unfaithful. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel.”

Right from the very beginning, there has always been two Israel that descended from Jacob – One being a physical descendant, and the other, a spiritual descendant. Paul is pointing out that God’s promise to Israel did not fail because the promise was for the Spiritual Israel – the faithful Remnant, and he proved his point about the two Israel by pointing us to two examples right there in the scripture – Abraham & Isaac.

The Only Way.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Back to Paul, I believe the Holy Spirit wants us to understand the plan of God for Israel.

To not understand the plan of God for Israel is not to understand the plan of God in general. This misunderstanding has led to many dangerous false doctrines.

Yes I guess the burning question is the function in God's purpose of the Nation on Israel today.

Apart from that there are may secretly believing Jews in Israel and the persecution on conversion is intense.

Would you like to outline what you think His plan for Israel is?
 
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Charlie24

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Yes I guess the burning question is the function in God's purpose of the Nation on Israel today.

Apart from that there are may secretly believing Jews in Israel and the persecution on conversion is intense.

Would you like to outline what you think His plan for Israel is?

In a nutshell, His plan for Israel has never changed from the beginning.

Rom. 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Israel will receive the promise given to Abraham and much more.

Sure they have been set aside until the fullness of church has come.

But they will get everything God originally promised.
 
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Vicky gould

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I believe the main teaching is a neglect and or misunderstood subject His sovereignty
Edit: Your take on v 8 seems to be wrong.
8 That is, They which are the children [teknon] of the flesh, these are not the children [teknon] of God: but the children [teknon again] of the promise are counted for the seed [sperma] (Mounce interlinear; Textus R. Stephanus)
I believe this goes back to Jeremiah 19, I think, where the uncircumcised of heart are equated spiritual to the uncircumcised Gentile nations. Ro. 2: 28- 29 also.
 
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Charlie24

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Yes I guess the burning question is the function in God's purpose of the Nation on Israel today.

Apart from that there are may secretly believing Jews in Israel and the persecution on conversion is intense.

Would you like to outline what you think His plan for Israel is?
It will take the second coming of Christ for "all Israel to be saved," as Zech. describes.

Some say this is not fair. But Paul was saved by a supernatural appearance of Christ also.
 
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Vicky gould

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Rom. 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Israel will receive the promise given to Abraham and much more.

Sure they have been set aside until the fullness of church has come.

But they will get everything God originally promised.
but this is only if they are as the Lord told Nicodemus John 4 that all need to be reborn and that rebirth only comes through their turning to Christ. All but a faithful remnant in the last days are destroyed.
 
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Vicky gould

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It will take the second coming of Christ for "all Israel to be saved," as Zech. describes.

Some say this is not fair. But Paul was saved by a supernatural appearance of Christ also.
there has always been three segments in Israel, one believe in the Christ, 2nd rejects the Christ Ro. 2: 28-29, and those who have not made up their mind and in the Last Days 144,000 of them will turn to Christ and the other portion are those destroyed with Jerusalem

15Brothers, let me put this in human terms. Even a human covenant, once it is ratified, cannot be canceled or amended. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law that came 430 years later does not revoke the covenant previously established by God, so as to cancel the promise.…

One Seed is the Heir, Christ, we can and Israel can only be coheirs with the Lord through the Lord.
 
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Charlie24

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but this is only if they are as the Lord told Nicodemus John 4 that all need to be reborn and that rebirth only comes through their turning to Christ. All but a faithful remnant in the last days are destroyed.
All of Israel will be saved at His second coming, that is, all that are left alive from the hand of the anitchrist.

Zech. tells us that 2/3 or Israel will be killed. The 1/3 left will receive all the promises given to Abraham.

He tells us that all nation will come to Israel and take hold of the skirt of the Jews and say, we will go to worship the Lord with you, for we have heard that the Lord is with you.
 
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Vicky gould

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Zech. tells us that 2/3 or Israel will be killed. The 1/3 left will receive all the promises given to Abraham. the promise given to Abraham and his Son who is Christ. Apostate Israel has the promises right now of do this and live the Mosaic Covenant. There is only one Son of Abraham and He is the Christ.

28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God. As shown in these verses a Jew in order to be a true Jew must be circumcised in their heart by their belief in Christ and the covenant of the flesh holds nothing but judgment who seeks to live by it.
 
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Greengardener

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A couple of thoughts come to mind.
Paul was dictating and didn't have access to word processing. Even the best orator would have had a hard time being particularly linear in that situation, although Paul does a reasonable job. But keep in mind that Paul isn't likely to contradict himself, even though there are sections that give that impression in Romans. And Paul isn't likely to contradict the Law or the Prophets - no, he quotes them extensively throughout the book. The whole of his message will agree with the whole of the rest, which will help keep us from getting bogged down in the temptation to overemphasize one point without the support of the whole message of this good news.

Some of what I see in the 9th Chapter of Romans starts with Paul's triple affirmation that he loves his countrymen but realizes that they are making a huge error. He supports the view that God shows all through the OT that God picked that special child born to Abraham and further delineated the choices, and that God can do that because He is God - end of discussion. But Paul points out that God wanted to also call the nations/gentiles, and that's all through the OT as well. Both Isaiah and Hosea are cited frequently, so it's a good idea to read those books to get a fuller understanding. In Paul's day, the only reliable place to hear the Scriptures would have been in the temple, and the only Scriptures one would hear there would have the Law, Prophets, and the stories, so by citing a thought of verses here and there, I think he was appealing to the God-fearing gentiles who may have been within earshot of the reading and would have known the rest of the context, or he was planting the seeds for that to happen, to show both what God was intending and that God was intending both the temporary setting aside of His mercy to the Jews (in order to bring them back forever) as well as His calling of the Gentiles (and that the gentiles were not an afterthought to God). That's the reliability that Paul had in the Scriptures, same as Jesus had. Those OT scriptures tell the same story Paul is telling to the Gentiles, and it will be backed by their cyclic exposure to the scriptures in the temple every Sabbath where they can hear it read. Faith comes by hearing, remember? All God's commandments are righteousness. Paul sets them up by explaining this, and later he continues with other thoughts to help set them up against the Judaizers, who would take similar information with the wrong twist to bring them into bondage. Paul didn't know he was writing scriptures - he was explaining the only Scripture they had access to.

So there is a thought that God hardens whom He will. Yes, God is God. We are not quite up to the task of understanding all the ins and outs of God, and it is not the expectation that we can tell God what is right or wrong: God makes that judgement. What can be known about Him is that He delights in lovingkindness, judgement and righteousness, and that He has given us a clear guide to what He calls lovingkindness, judgement, and righteousness in His commandments. If we do what we will and not what He wills, we will have to harden our hearts against His continued calling of us into relationship. It may be that God causes hard times to come against us to cause us to cry out to Him, but if He gives us relief and we harden our hearts, isn't it like saying God hardened our hearts by blessing us with relief when the troublesome time was really the bigger blessing because it caused us to cry out to Him. Does that makes sense? Yet with Jacob and Esau, it would seem to be a clear cut case of God making a choice because neither of the babies had even yet been born to act. I wonder though if the statement in verse 13 was a summary when you consider how Esau took the easy path (selling his birthright for a bowl of soup) without regard to the consequences (and surely the importance of his being the firstborn was not lost on him to that degree that he could claim ignorance) and Jacob took risks to obtain his father's blessing even to the point of the interesting deception Rebecca drummed up and with wrestling with the being without giving up to claim that blessing. He followed his parent's advice to marry, unlike Esau. He was determined and valued that inheritance, that position of relationship, unlike Esau. So the question that Paul raises in that one verse, verse 13, brings back a whole story of behaviors that show what their behaviors meant to God that He had such a strong and contradictory reaction to the 2 sons of the chosen son of Abraham.

Any set of words is our opinion, and here's mine. I'm appreciative of the thread, the OP and the responses that I glanced through. Sharing our thoughts and making suggestions are helpful. May we find and live in the Truth, and may we live in His love and in love with the brethren.
 
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Charlie24

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Zech. tells us that 2/3 or Israel will be killed. The 1/3 left will receive all the promises given to Abraham. the promise given to Abraham and his Son who is Christ. Apostate Israel has the promises right now of do this and live the Mosaic Covenant. There is only one Son of Abraham and He is the Christ.

28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God. As shown in these verses a Jew in order to be a true Jew must be circumcised in their heart by their belief in Christ and the covenant of the flesh holds nothing but judgment who seeks to live by it.
We saved Gentiles are the spiritual seed of Abraham. The Jews are the physical seed of Abraham.

When Israel is saved as Paul said, they will be both spiritual and physical seeds of Abraham.

They will receive both the spiritual promise of God as we, and they will receive the physical promise of God made to their physical father Abraham.
 
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