Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

claninja · Dec 27, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
I am deeply troubled by your avoidance. But give me a link and I would be happy to explore further. Full Preterism is indeed full-scale heresy.

I am also troubled by your avoidance to address Luke 23's quotation of hosea in regards to 1st century Jerusalem, which corroborates revelation 6's quotation of hosea in fulfillment of the 6th seal.

I agree Full-preterism is indeed heresy.

Some examples of the already but not yet position of the new heavens and new earth by those who are not full preterist:

Jonathan Edwards:
"Thus there was a final end to the Old Testament world: all was finished with a kind of day of judgment, in which the people of God were saved, and His enemies terribly destroyed." (History of Redemption, vol. i. p. 445)

"We read, That "in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth," and the church of old were to commemorate that work. But when God creates a new heaven and a new earth, those that belong to this new heaven and new earth, by a like reason, are the commemorate the creation of their heaven and earth. ("The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath" (The Works of Jonathan Edwards, vol 2).

"The Scriptures further teach us to call the gospel-restoration and redemption, a creation of a new heaven and a new earth.... ("The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath" (The Works of Jonathan Edwards, vol 2).

"The gospel-state is every where spoken of as a renewed state of things, wherein old things are passed away, and all things become new." ("The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath" (The Works of Jonathan Edwards, vol 2).

"And the dissolution of the Jewish state was often spoken of in the Old Testament as the end of the world. But we who belong to the gospel-church, belong to the new creation; and therefore there seems to be at least as much reason, that we should commemorate the work of this creation, as that the members of the ancient Jewish church should commemorate the work of the old creation." ("The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath" (The Works of Jonathan Edwards, vol 2).

C.H. Spurgeon (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under a new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

My belief, as a partial preterist, in the new heavens and earth falls in line with Jonathan Edwards and Charles Spurgeon. But as evidenced by your response, it is often misinterpreted as full preterism. And full preterism is not allowed on the eschatological forums.

sovereigngrace · Dec 27, 2019

claninja said:
I am also troubled by your avoidance to address Luke 23's quotation of hosea in regards to 1st century Jerusalem, which corroborates revelation 6's quotation of hosea in fulfillment of the 6th seal.

I agree Full-preterism is indeed heresy.

Some examples of the already but not yet position of the new heavens and new earth by those who are not full preterist:

Jonathan Edwards:
"Thus there was a final end to the Old Testament world: all was finished with a kind of day of judgment, in which the people of God were saved, and His enemies terribly destroyed." (History of Redemption, vol. i. p. 445)

"We read, That "in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth," and the church of old were to commemorate that work. But when God creates a new heaven and a new earth, those that belong to this new heaven and new earth, by a like reason, are the commemorate the creation of their heaven and earth. ("The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath" (The Works of Jonathan Edwards, vol 2).

"The Scriptures further teach us to call the gospel-restoration and redemption, a creation of a new heaven and a new earth.... ("The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath" (The Works of Jonathan Edwards, vol 2).

"The gospel-state is every where spoken of as a renewed state of things, wherein old things are passed away, and all things become new." ("The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath" (The Works of Jonathan Edwards, vol 2).

"And the dissolution of the Jewish state was often spoken of in the Old Testament as the end of the world. But we who belong to the gospel-church, belong to the new creation; and therefore there seems to be at least as much reason, that we should commemorate the work of this creation, as that the members of the ancient Jewish church should commemorate the work of the old creation." ("The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath" (The Works of Jonathan Edwards, vol 2).

C.H. Spurgeon (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under a new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

My belief, as a partial preterist, in the new heavens and earth falls in line with Jonathan Edwards and Charles Spurgeon. But as evidenced by your response, it is often misinterpreted as full preterism. And full preterism is not allowed on the eschatological forums.

A large part of what you present in your posts seems to be mainly based on man's opinions rather than the Word of God. That seems to be the main thrust of your argument. I find that disturbing. So, can you answer these brief questions for me? I don't need long answers or even scriptural support at this juncture. I am trying ascertain what you believe!

When did the old covenant end?
When did the new covenant begin?
When did "the last days" begin?
When will "the last days" finish?
When is the "end of the age"?
When is the day of redemption?
When did "this age" arrive?
When does "this age" end?
When do the new heavens and new earth right?
When did the kingdom of God begin?
When does "the age to come" arrive?

sovereigngrace · Dec 27, 2019

claninja said:
I am also troubled by your avoidance to address Luke 23's quotation of hosea in regards to 1st century Jerusalem, which corroborates revelation 6's quotation of hosea in fulfillment of the 6th seal.

I agree Full-preterism is indeed heresy.

Some examples of the already but not yet position of the new heavens and new earth by those who are not full preterist:

Jonathan Edwards:
"Thus there was a final end to the Old Testament world: all was finished with a kind of day of judgment, in which the people of God were saved, and His enemies terribly destroyed." (History of Redemption, vol. i. p. 445)

"We read, That "in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth," and the church of old were to commemorate that work. But when God creates a new heaven and a new earth, those that belong to this new heaven and new earth, by a like reason, are the commemorate the creation of their heaven and earth. ("The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath" (The Works of Jonathan Edwards, vol 2).

"The Scriptures further teach us to call the gospel-restoration and redemption, a creation of a new heaven and a new earth.... ("The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath" (The Works of Jonathan Edwards, vol 2).

"The gospel-state is every where spoken of as a renewed state of things, wherein old things are passed away, and all things become new." ("The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath" (The Works of Jonathan Edwards, vol 2).

"And the dissolution of the Jewish state was often spoken of in the Old Testament as the end of the world. But we who belong to the gospel-church, belong to the new creation; and therefore there seems to be at least as much reason, that we should commemorate the work of this creation, as that the members of the ancient Jewish church should commemorate the work of the old creation." ("The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath" (The Works of Jonathan Edwards, vol 2).

C.H. Spurgeon (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under a new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

My belief, as a partial preterist, in the new heavens and earth falls in line with Jonathan Edwards and Charles Spurgeon. But as evidenced by your response, it is often misinterpreted as full preterism. And full preterism is not allowed on the eschatological forums.

This is what Spurgeon wrote on Revelation 21:3-4. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

"When there shall be a new heaven and a new earth, and the Church shall be in her new and glorified condition, then there will be no need for all those purifying forces which have been so active here below. There shall be no death, nor sorrow nor crying, nor pain, nor trial of any kind; all shall be happiness for all shall be holiness. And then, as God dwelt of old among his people in the wilderness, and as Jesus Christ, the Word, was made flesh, and tabernacled among us, and we beheld his glory, so in that new world shall God reveal himself to his people by a special indwelling and a peculiar nearness."

jgr · Dec 27, 2019

thomas_t said:
In Christian church, faithfulness NEVER commands you to tear your garment when you see brothers and sisters marry someone of another race. Christian faithfulness has nothing to do with race.
But in Israel, in contrast, race counted as proven by this very scripture. 100% evidence that church and Israel was not the same.

Hi thomas_t,

In the Christian Church, if someone marries someone of the same race who draws them away from the true faith, do you tear your garment?

If Israel had been evangelizing its neighbors instead of being seduced by them, would Ezra have torn his garments?

The answers are self-evident.

As always, nothing to do with physical DNA.

And everything to do with spiritual DNA.

jgr · Dec 27, 2019

thomas_t said:
I wasn't clear enough.
No brother or sister is ever elected for salvation for the sake of someone else. Israel is, see all of Romans 11:28.

You've misread the verse. It does not say anyone is elected for salvation for the sake of someone else.

Rather, it says that the election (the saved remnant according to the election of grace Romans 11:5) are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

They are beloved because they have persevered in the faith and obedience of the fathers.

They are the faithful obedient beneficiaries and friends of the gospel, not its enemies.

As every other related NT passage affirms.

mkgal1 · Dec 27, 2019

thomas_t said:
Jesus saves by grace and not to please anyone else.
In my opinion… God has no grandchildren. Either he saves you or not. Your personal salvation does not take into account neither the faith nor the unbelief of your father.

I think you're misunderstanding my posts - because I've never implied that salvation has to do with who anyone's father is. That actually seems to be more like YOUR argument. As JGR has said......it's all about spiritual DNA. And, of course, God doesn't bow to the whims of others.

thomas_t said:
I totally agree with what @sovereigngrace has said in #342 with regard to ethnicity. Even if there was some interchange with other races, Israel still used to be seen as a people of its own.

Even IF? There are plenty of verses that state there were, most definitely, many intermarriages (to the point that it was a widespread problem) - not because of the racial differences, but because of the "abominations" these other groups committed in their idolatry. You shared one such verse yourself. Idolatry was the reason God had called His people out of Egypt and separated them - so they would have allegiance ONLY to Him (which was unlike the worship of many gods that was so prevalent at the time). Their separation was demonstrated through their covenant with God - the external "mark" was circumcision of the males (an act of faithfulness to the covenant). This is a summary of the entire Gospel story in a nutshell:

Quoting from Ligonier Ministries:
The main purposes of the exodus were to release Israelites from slavery so that they could worship and serve their covenant Lord, and so that the Egyptians would see that Yahweh is the one true Creator and God of the universe (Ex. 5:1; 7:5). Likewise, God’s purpose in rescuing His exiled people from Babylon was to free them from enslavement to idols so that the nations would know Him as the Lord (Ezek. 36:22–30). Finally, all of our Father’s plans come to fruition in freeing His people from slavery to sin and death so that the nations would see that Yahweh, the covenant Lord of Israel, is the one true God and that Christ Jesus is His Son (Rom. 6:15–23) ~ Ligonier Ministries

thomas_t said:
In Christian church, faithfulness NEVER commands you to tear your garment when you see brothers and sisters marry someone of another race. Christian faithfulness has nothing to do with race.
But in Israel, in contrast, race counted as proven by this very scripture. 100% evidence that church and Israel was not the same.

It's interesting to me the lengths you go to in order to separate the quality of "faithfulness" from the ancient Israelites (re-naming them "Christian"). Again.....THAT is the actual egregious and genuine form of "Replacement Theology".

The tearing of the garments and pulling out the hair isn't based on a "command" to do so. People don't mourn and grieve based on commands. It wasn't about "race" (look more closely) it was about the idolatry that had seeped in. Where's the outrage for Abraham, Boaz, and Salmon being married to "foreign wives"?:

Deuteronomy 7:3-4 ~ Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, because they will turn your sons away from Me to worship other gods.

Nehemiah 13:26 ~ Did not King Solomon of Israel sin in matters like this? There was not a king like him among many nations. He was loved by his God, and God made him king over all Israel, yet foreign women drew him into sin.

Sarah, Sarai, Sara - All the Women of the Bible - Bible Gateway

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thomas_t said:
I wasn't clear enough.
No brother or sister is ever elected for salvation for the sake of someone else. Israel is, see all of Romans 11:28.
However, this has nothing to do with being elected for a purpose or tasks or anythinig like this.
Sure, people can get elected for a specific mission sometimes... and this mission can be for somone else's sake... yeah, of course.

Christ's mission (planned before the foundation of the earth) was to reconcile the WORLD unto God. It was to "take away the sin of the WORLD". There's not two plans but ONE. There's not two people - but ONE "people of God".

mkgal1 · Dec 27, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
When did the old covenant end?
When did the new covenant begin?
When did "the last days" begin?
When will "the last days" finish?
When is the "end of the age"?
When is the day of redemption?
When did "this age" arrive?
When does "this age" end?
When do the new heavens and new earth right?
When did the kingdom of God begin?
When does "the age to come" arrive?

I'll take this and begin a new thread. Here is the link: When did the Old Covenant truly "disappear" and end?

Hank77 · Dec 27, 2019

answered

mkgal1 · Dec 27, 2019

Hank77 said:
answered

I don't see your answer, Hank77. Where did you answer? I don't see a post of yours in that thread.

keras · Dec 27, 2019

thomas_t said:
Hi Keras,
bolded mine. This is disrespectful against Israel and Jews.
Look, I don't want to be called Satan's fake Christian, you don't want to be called like this, so stop calling Jews like that. Treat them as you want to be treated. Golden Rule according to Jesus.
Thomas

I say it like it is.
The Jewish State of Israel is in no way the people who God wants in His holy Land. They are at least 70% atheist's or other religion worshippers. The world Ba'hai Temple is in Haifa and even Judaism is far removed from what Israel was taught to do by Moses.

Are you a Bible studier? If so, you should have seen the many prophesies that say how the Lord will clear and cleanse His Land of all unrighteousness, in the forthcoming Day of His fiery wrath. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Ezekiel 21:1-7, +
Jeremiah 12:14 is one that tells how the Lord will uproot Judah and in Jeremiah 50:4-5; how a few will come back with their Christian brethren.

claninja · Dec 27, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
A large part of what you present in your posts seems to be mainly based on man's opinions rather than the Word of God. That seems to be the main thrust of your argument. I find that disturbing. So, can you answer these brief questions for me? I don't need long answers or even scriptural support at this juncture. I am trying ascertain what you believe!

When did the old covenant end?
When did the new covenant begin?
When did "the last days" begin?
When will "the last days" finish?
When is the "end of the age"?
When is the day of redemption?
When did "this age" arrive?
When does "this age" end?
When do the new heavens and new earth right?
When did the kingdom of God begin?
When does "the age to come" arrive?

mkgal1 said:
I'll take this and begin a new thread. Here is the link: When did the Old Covenant truly "disappear" and end?

thanks mkgal

Hank77 · Dec 27, 2019

mkgal1 said:
I don't see your answer, Hank77. Where did you answer? I don't see a post of yours in that thread.

I deleted my post because I saw where someone else had already responded, the question had been 'answered'. Sorry for the confusion. :doh:

thomas_t · Dec 28, 2019

jgr said:
Rather, it says that the election (the saved remnant according to the election of grace Romans 11:5) are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

If they are beloved, then they are saved. I see this verse as an explanation of Romans 11:26 which is about salvation. Note that the saved remnant aren't enemies of the Gospel so they can't be meant by 11:28. I told you already in my answer #428. So this is going round in circles, can we stop that, please?

jgr said:
In the Christian Church, if someone marries someone of the same race who draws them away from the true faith, do you tear your garment?

Esra 9 is about race. If someone from another race leads his spouse away from faith, the marriage was over in this chapter. This stands in sharp contrast to Israelites dragging each other away from faith. Esra didn't end their marriage, in return.

thomas_t · Dec 28, 2019

Hi Gal,

mkgal1 said:
because I've never implied that salvation has to do with who anyone's father is. That actually seems to be more like YOUR argument.

yes I know. But Bible says they are beloved for the sake of someone else. The context of this verse is Romans 11:26, which is about salvation. And this is my point: Christians are not beloved for the sake of someone else. So this verse about another entity. God's children are beloved… because God loves his children.

mkgal1 said:
[…] the lengths you go to in order to separate the quality of "faithfulness" from the ancient Israelites (re-naming them "Christian")

You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't rename them Christian. So I'm not guilty of any replacement whatsoever.
I did not seperate the quality of faithfulness of ancient Isralites, either.
But as a matter of fact they were not faithful sometimes. For instance in Numbers 13:31.

mkgal1 said:
It wasn't about "race" (look more closely) it was about the idolatry that had seeped in.

My point is... when Israelite spouses encouraged each other to resort to idolatry within wedlock… noone questioned the legitimacy of the whole wedlock. So this is clearly about race.

mkgal1 said:
The tearing of the garments and pulling out the hair isn't based on a "command" to do so.

Esra tore his garments to express his feelings about what happened in these marriages.

mkgal1 said:
There's not two people

I stay with my opinion: Israel, the one people, and the church, the other, are seperate.

Thomas

thomas_t · Dec 28, 2019

Hi Keras,

keras said:
I say it like it is.

… according to you only.

keras said:
Jeremiah 12:14 is one that tells how the Lord will uproot Judah

… which has happened during the first exile….

keras said:
in Jeremiah 50:4-5; how a few will come back with their Christian brethren.

this verse doesn't mention Christians, though. It is addressed to Jews.

thomas_t · Dec 28, 2019

Hi jgr,

jgr said:
You've misread the verse. It does not say anyone is elected for salvation for the sake of someone else.

[…] are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

My point is the same: Christians never are beloved for the sake of some one else.
So Romans 11:28 can't be about the faithful remnant, as you suggest.

jgr said:
if someone marries someone of the same race who draws them away from the true faith, do you tear your garment?

The point is, Esra only tore his garment when he saw people from other races drawing Israelites away from faith. When they did that among themselves, nothing happened.

Thomas

mkgal1 · Dec 28, 2019

[

thomas_t said:
Hi Gal,

yes I know. But Bible says they are beloved for the sake of someone else. The context of this verse is Romans 11:26, which is about salvation. And this is my point: Christians are not beloved for the sake of someone else. So this verse about another entity. God's children are beloved… because God loves his children.

You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't rename them Christian. So I'm not guilty of any replacement whatsoever.
I did not seperate the quality of faithfulness of ancient Isralites, either.
But as a matter of fact they were not faithful sometimes. For instance in Numbers 13:31.

My point is... when Israelite spouses encouraged each other to resort to idolatry within wedlock… noone questioned the legitimacy of the whole wedlock. So this is clearly about race.

Esra tore his garments to express his feelings about what happened in these marriages.

I stay with my opinion: Israel, the one people, and the church, the other, are seperate.

Thomas

You repeatedly ignore the fact that the commonality was not biological DNA. That was diluted very early on. The commonality was allegiance to the one True God. Your post seems to completely ignore this part of my post:

mkgal1 said:
So we have some tension here between this passage (Ezra 9:1-3) and Genesis 17:12 and Isaiah 56:6-7. God is recorded as saying that "no foreigner should be excluded" and Ezra is recorded as saying the Israelite assembly shouldn't be taking "foreign wives". Yet.....Tamar and Rahab (Canaanites) and Ruth (a Moabite) were in the line that begot King David.

jgr · Dec 28, 2019

thomas_t said:
The point is, Esra only tore his garment when he saw people from other races drawing Israelites away from faith. When they did that among themselves, nothing happened.

Hi thomas_t,

When they did that among themselves, here's what happened:

(Exodus 32:28, Numbers 16:49, 1 Samuel 4:10, 2 Chronicles 13:17).

No other races involved.

Somewhat worse than a torn garment.

keras · Dec 28, 2019

thomas_t said:
Hi Keras,

… according to you only.

… which has happened during the first exile….

this verse doesn't mention Christians, though. It is addressed to Jews.

According to what the Bible says.
Bible teaching is clear; there have been believers and godless people since Adam. That is still the case today.
It is your attempts to make the Jews into a specially favored people, that is the actual Replacement.

What is prophesied in Jeremiah 12:14-17 has not happened, it remains to be fulfilled. Saying it has without any proofs, is unacceptable.
Note in Jeremiah 12:7-8, how the Lord now hates His people for their apostasy and rejection of Him.
The Sword of the Lords fierce anger will devour the Land from end to end. Jeremiah 12:12-13 The soon to happen Sixth Seal devastation.

Jeremiah 50:4-5 plainly says TWO peoples: Israel and Judah will come together in the holy Land.
The Christian Israelites of God and the Messianic Jewish remnant.

jgr · Dec 28, 2019

Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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