The basic problem we face: is that God does play dice, with *parts* of Creation

Gottservant

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Hi there,

So the quote you may know is from Albert Einstein, who said "God does not play dice, with the Universe". I would extrapolate slightly different, only slightly: I would say "God does play dice, with parts of the Universe". The history of mankind then, is in part a reflection of the ways in which God is prepared to play dice. What is sad about this, is that the enemy has basically planted a bad seed, "that God - if there is a "God" - only ever plays dice, with the Universe" (Creation). How do we deal with this?

It is effectively stating that God "is drunk" either on His power to create, or on Creation itself. I don't like either of those choices; one suggests that the future is not going to go in my favour (when the Bible says "all things work together for good, for those that love the Lord"), and the other suggests, that ultimately I am going to be drunk on Creation, myself! Neither of these things is good. It is in fact, a dangerous snare to be second guessing God, in this way. God needs freedom to roll dice and a choice of the dice himself. How would God create anything, if He was forced to play dice, with dice that were prepared for Him, before time?

While it seems at first, that God playing dice, is a much better place to be in, than being Judged by God, the fact is that God preserves a way, for Judgment to be maintained. God never places dice with something, that needs to be interpreted correctly at a later time - if the interpretation is established, then we can roll dice (not before). This attests to His Wisdom; it does not diminish it. It also makes us completely dependent on Him, for that which He will reveal will not be a total loss for us. And this is the point, Evolution basically presents something that is a total loss...

I think this is powerful, then, that in effect I am on the cross with Christ, waiting for the dice to roll over something that is not crucial to life in Heaven: namely the coat, left behind on Earth. From there, I can begin to imagine what life in Heaven will be like, wearing a Heavenly coat of greater glory prepared for the one able to win, by restraining from the gamble that men make. This is the character of Wisdom, that we not strive with men, over what they can have in this life, over their Evolution, in principle - but that we strive to be with Christ, ready to receive all that the Father has in Heaven, to take chances with. Can it be done?

That is where we have to have faith. It is not enough to be waiting for the inheritance of Christ, to come to us, while we are powerless, but we must be ready at least, to pray, to remain free from temptation, as Christ was - that sin not encroach on our blessing, at His hand. And indeed, it has been done: we have had a chance at the lottery of life, to the very end, in Christ; there is nothing in us, that is not at least ready advantageously, for the things of God, which He has given us (through Christ Jesus). Are we ready for God to roll the dice again: how could we not be?

Let us pray, this is enough - I for one, am too simple-minded to accept anything less!

Please, if you will disagree, what does God play dice with?

Sincerely and Thankyou.
 

SkyWriting

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So the quote you may know is from Albert Einstein, who said "God does not play dice, with the Universe".

He was correct.
God planned out and then executed his plan. He planned where and when each electron in the Cosmos would be located and He is executing his plan now.

Psalm 147:5
Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.

Matthew 10:30

But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.

By the sheer power of His will he holds each electron in it's orbit
(We call it an electron "cloud" because it's impossible to locate it's exact position.)
He keeps each and every electron in it's place and stops the violent explosion of each atom
.

Colossians 1:17
And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Hebrews 1:3

He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.

Jeremiah 23:24
Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Psalm 147:4
He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names.

His plans are executed exactly to his desire.

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.

Matthew 10:29-30
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny?
And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.
But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.

For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.


There is not one random thing in the Cosmos.
 
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SkyWriting

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Hi there,

So the quote you may know is from Albert Einstein, who said "God does not play dice, with the Universe". I would extrapolate slightly different, only slightly: I would say "God does play dice, with parts of the Universe". The history of mankind then, is in part a reflection of the ways in which God is prepared to play dice. What is sad about this, is that the enemy has basically planted a bad seed, "that God - if there is a "God" - only ever plays dice, with the Universe" (Creation). How do we deal with this?

It is effectively stating that God "is drunk" either on His power to create, or on Creation itself. I don't like either of those choices; one suggests that the future is not going to go in my favour (when the Bible says "all things work together for good, for those that love the Lord"), and the other suggests, that ultimately I am going to be drunk on Creation, myself! Neither of these things is good. It is in fact, a dangerous snare to be second guessing God, in this way. God needs freedom to roll dice and a choice of the dice himself. How would God create anything, if He was forced to play dice, with dice that were prepared for Him, before time?

While it seems at first, that God playing dice, is a much better place to be in, than being Judged by God, the fact is that God preserves a way, for Judgment to be maintained. God never places dice with something, that needs to be interpreted correctly at a later time - if the interpretation is established, then we can roll dice (not before). This attests to His Wisdom; it does not diminish it. It also makes us completely dependent on Him, for that which He will reveal will not be a total loss for us. And this is the point, Evolution basically presents something that is a total loss...

I think this is powerful, then, that in effect I am on the cross with Christ, waiting for the dice to roll over something that is not crucial to life in Heaven: namely the coat, left behind on Earth. From there, I can begin to imagine what life in Heaven will be like, wearing a Heavenly coat of greater glory prepared for the one able to win, by restraining from the gamble that men make. This is the character of Wisdom, that we not strive with men, over what they can have in this life, over their Evolution, in principle - but that we strive to be with Christ, ready to receive all that the Father has in Heaven, to take chances with. Can it be done?

That is where we have to have faith. It is not enough to be waiting for the inheritance of Christ, to come to us, while we are powerless, but we must be ready at least, to pray, to remain free from temptation, as Christ was - that sin not encroach on our blessing, at His hand. And indeed, it has been done: we have had a chance at the lottery of life, to the very end, in Christ; there is nothing in us, that is not at least ready advantageously, for the things of God, which He has given us (through Christ Jesus). Are we ready for God to roll the dice again: how could we not be?

Let us pray, this is enough - I for one, am too simple-minded to accept anything less!

Please, if you will disagree, what does God play dice with?

Sincerely and Thankyou.

What? No scripture?
 
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SkyWriting

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And this is the point, Evolution basically presents something that is a total loss.

Things do change and animals do reproduce after their own kind. Just not by accident. Every offspring is a result of the parents, KIND OF the same as them.

Ecclesiastes 3:1
For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
 
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coastal_hiker

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a more appropriate way of stating it would be that nature does not play with a two sided coin. Nature always wins, and that is not determined by science or religion. The Religion vs science debates is actually one single perspective (third person) articulated out in 2 ways. There are an infinite number of possible expressions in regard to observation, in third person, depending on very very human logic structures.
 
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coastal_hiker

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a more appropriate way of stating it would be that nature does not play with a two sided coin. Nature always wins, and that is not determined by science or religion. The Religion vs science debates is actually one single perspective (third person) articulated out in 2 ways. There are an infinite number of possible expressions in regard to observation, in third person, depending on very very human logic structures.
 
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The Barbarian

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Please, if you will disagree, what does God play dice with?

“The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow, but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore, whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity happens infallibly and of necessity; and that happens from contingency, which the divine providence conceives to happen from contingency”
St. Thomas Aquinas (Summa theologiae, I, 22,4 ad 1)
 
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Gottservant

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I think the question for me, is: does God play dice with things not relevant to my salvation, before or after open my life up to Salvation?

Like does He say "you are only a child, here, gamble with this!" or "wait, you are open to salvation now, gamble with that!"?

Why would God want to gamble, even, if you could answer that: you might shed a lot of clarity (on the subject!).
 
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The Barbarian

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I think the question for me, is: does God play dice with things not relevant to my salvation, before or after open my life up to Salvation?

First, contingency is just as easily used by God as is necessity, to effect His will. Don't play poker with God.

Second, He makes promises to us about salvation, and God is truth.
 
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Gottservant

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I think the fundamental difficulty, if we look at the Cross, is that God allows men to gamble for His Son's clothing, but only after He has dressed the Son in a crown of thorns - that nobody wants!

If we look to our own faith - as it is to be tested, in this Age - God unites the faith under the crown of thorns, as the world does not believe has blossomed. This is a sign to the Gentiles and the Jews alike, that God has accepted our sacrifice, in reciprocity of what Jesus has done for us.

Does God go on to gamble with nations, at the Apocalypse? Is Evolution numbered with those that go to War with the Sun Above? It would be thought that the blossomed crown of thorns would take root in men's heart, at so great a conflict? This indeed is a lesser war, than that which will take place in Heaven - as the Devil tries to return to the place, where he can accuse. This is a war that the anti-Christ will refuse, as men may suppose is weakness, but then they will find they do not have the strength to war, otherwise.

And this is the the problem that Evolution faces, the prospect of war, is not necessarily the confidence that leads to its overcoming. You can say you believe in Evolution all you want, at the end of the Day, you need to know where your strength is coming from and to what extent (in principle). Most people who deify one thing or other as god, can work part or almost all of these things out, but Evolution eschews any such connection - and actually that is the reason I have contended so long with it. What is the Evolutionist to do? It is like trusting the Devil to work, with fools that refuse their own gut, to their hurt.

I don't suppose you have an answer to all this, sometimes I simply hide behind words. I am just trying to work out the angle, the contradiction that will break the snare. Evolution is unmistakeably, for the enemy,, it should be us that learn the way of peace, that Evolution cannot understand, because our enemies do not (understand). I suppose I shall be rewarded, in Heaven, simply for having asked for the way!
 
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Gottservant

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The problem I think for the current thought (culturally), is that irrespective of how God gambles: the Devil considers it a wasted gamble.

The Devil wants to win, across the table - it is far more than God can do anything about, until the successive gambles He gambles have built up to a level that the Devil can do something about: the Devil just does not have the patience in him to gamble, what God does, every way God does.

Understanding this, helps us resist the Devil, but only insofar as we pay attention to where the Devil's faith has reached; has the Devil cornered the Son? No - so we may expect that the Devil will gamble with what is around the Son, but not the Son specifically; has the Devil cornered God? No - so we may expect that the Devil will build up to a gamble that God would keep gambling, but not gamble with God specifically. This is the point: nothing Evolves without being lead to evolve, because evolving can't allow us to take a gamble with Creation, that nothing in Creation knows how to take.

What is it supposed to mean, to the faith, that God gambles with how much of this, we believe?

I wonder.
 
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Gottservant

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In addition to what I've learned, so far: I think it has to be said, that God doesn't need permission,, to play dice.

How that plays out, for people who only ever want to play dice, I don't know: but I don't doubt its bad luck for people that expect it to be that way.

I am not saying that they deserve bad luck, I am saying that which God does not think twice about (and who really thinks twice about a gamble, if you're God), God really does pay nothing for (if you don't have the fear of God, you might find that hard to understand "why should God care how He wins?" - but if you've ever been faithful, you would have started to understand at the very least.

The point being, God plays dice, don't gamble with anything God won't.
 
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The Barbarian

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"The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow; but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity happens infallibly and of necessity; and that happens from contingency, which the plan of divine providence conceives to happen from contingency."
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Q22, Article 4.
 
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SkyWriting

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The point being, God plays dice, don't gamble with anything God won't.

What, no scripture?

Ecclesiastes 3:1
For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.

Matthew 10:29-30
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny?
And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.
But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.

Matthew 10:30
But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.

Jeremiah 23:24
Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Psalm 147:4
He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names.

Romans 11:33
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

Job 28:24
For he looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens.
 
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stevevw

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Hi there,

So the quote you may know is from Albert Einstein, who said "God does not play dice, with the Universe". I would extrapolate slightly different, only slightly: I would say "God does play dice, with parts of the Universe". The history of mankind then, is in part a reflection of the ways in which God is prepared to play dice. What is sad about this, is that the enemy has basically planted a bad seed, "that God - if there is a "God" - only ever plays dice, with the Universe" (Creation). How do we deal with this?

It is effectively stating that God "is drunk" either on His power to create, or on Creation itself. I don't like either of those choices; one suggests that the future is not going to go in my favour (when the Bible says "all things work together for good, for those that love the Lord"), and the other suggests, that ultimately I am going to be drunk on Creation, myself! Neither of these things is good. It is in fact, a dangerous snare to be second guessing God, in this way. God needs freedom to roll dice and a choice of the dice himself. How would God create anything, if He was forced to play dice, with dice that were prepared for Him, before time?

While it seems at first, that God playing dice, is a much better place to be in, than being Judged by God, the fact is that God preserves a way, for Judgment to be maintained. God never places dice with something, that needs to be interpreted correctly at a later time - if the interpretation is established, then we can roll dice (not before). This attests to His Wisdom; it does not diminish it. It also makes us completely dependent on Him, for that which He will reveal will not be a total loss for us. And this is the point, Evolution basically presents something that is a total loss...

I think this is powerful, then, that in effect I am on the cross with Christ, waiting for the dice to roll over something that is not crucial to life in Heaven: namely the coat, left behind on Earth. From there, I can begin to imagine what life in Heaven will be like, wearing a Heavenly coat of greater glory prepared for the one able to win, by restraining from the gamble that men make. This is the character of Wisdom, that we not strive with men, over what they can have in this life, over their Evolution, in principle - but that we strive to be with Christ, ready to receive all that the Father has in Heaven, to take chances with. Can it be done?

That is where we have to have faith. It is not enough to be waiting for the inheritance of Christ, to come to us, while we are powerless, but we must be ready at least, to pray, to remain free from temptation, as Christ was - that sin not encroach on our blessing, at His hand. And indeed, it has been done: we have had a chance at the lottery of life, to the very end, in Christ; there is nothing in us, that is not at least ready advantageously, for the things of God, which He has given us (through Christ Jesus). Are we ready for God to roll the dice again: how could we not be?

Let us pray, this is enough - I for one, am too simple-minded to accept anything less!

Please, if you will disagree, what does God play dice with?

Sincerely and Thankyou.
For me the universe, the mountains, trees, animals, sea life, birds, humans, all of Gods creation can be summed up in this bible verse.
John 1: 1-5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

This means that what we see being Gods creation is not merely about the material/physical understanding and cannot be completely understood by this. We being humans and occupying this material realm using our senses can only understand Gods creation materialistically. Therefore we attempt to explain things materialistically. But we all have some insight into Gods divinity to a greater or lesser extent depending on how much we let God in. For the bible tells us that we know of Gods divine nature.

Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

So the Word of God, Gods divine nature is in everything and this is what holds everything together and despite humans every effort to understand nature will never completely be able to assign a materialistic explanation to it because Gods creation is infused with non-materialism. The laws of nature all work towards one thing, Gods word which spoke creation into being. Gods word is seen in Christ and can be summed up in one word Love. When love is infused into creation it produces life, human life that is capable of having relationship with God. That is why God created everything.

So in that sense God didn't play with a dice when it comes to creation and us even though when we try to understand it things appear to be random sometimes. I think of it like a fractal that may appear to be making intricate random patterns but is still working within a frame of design. Except Gods design is not 2 dimensional. It is infused with love as its ultimate guide. This is something beyond our comprehension.
 
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