Repent of our Sins?

redleghunter said:

Judas was already gone. He was speaking to the 11 faithful and clean.

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But Jesus said he chose Judas. John 6:70.
Judas was among the chosen, so obviously they were not chosen for eternal salvation.

Nicolaus Mourer said:

What you're saying makes NO sense.

Israel was God's chosen nation, but not all Israelites were saved.

The apostles were chosen by Christ as his eyewitnesses, most were saved but not all were saved obviously (just one chosen by Christ specifically to fulfil the scriptures). Judas is called the son of perdition. Not saved. Never was saved. You can't be born of God and also be a son of perdition. It's literally impossible.

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Judas was born of God as he was elected by the Father. Are you knowledgeable about the doctrine of election? If not, you may want to familiarize yourself with it. Judas was given to Jesus by the Father as were the rest of the eleven disciples (they all were elected). However, unlike the others Judas sinned by habitually stealing from the money bag of which he was put in charge. According to 1 Jn 3:8, anyone who practices sin IS OF THE DEVIL, which is precisely why Judas is a son of perdition as he practiced theft, not to mention that at the end he betrays the Savior. Scripture interprets scripture.

Bible Highlighter said:

Only if one does not want to see it.
Judas was included in the disciples whereby Jesus said that they were sheep sent amongst wolves.

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Yet one was a devil. I will accept the answer that Judas was chosen but not for eternal life. He was chosen to be the son of perdition and to be called unclean when the others the 11 were clean.

Truly it is grasping at straws to find another way out for Judas.

renniks said:

But Jesus said he chose Judas. John 6:70.
Judas was among the chosen, so obviously they were not chosen for eternal salvation.

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One was a devil. What does that tell you?

Oldmantook said:

Are you unaware that just because God predestined someone, does it mean that they will automatically persevere?

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Let’s test that with continuing past Ephesians 1:7

7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

The pledge is given by God. Not our pledge.

Oldmantook said:

God calls us to obey, if we do not live a lifestyle of disobedience, we shall not inherit eternal life. See Heb 5:9.

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Hebrews 5: NASB

7In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.(NASB)


Who is arguing against a born again believer obeying God? Is there some “what if” included in your comments?

Oldmantook said:

Reformed theologians, take your position, namely that those who fail to persevere in obedience were never believers in the first place. That's a pretty lame excuse in my opinion contradicted by verses such as Rom 8:13 and Js 5:19-20.

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Yes it is clear all those who endure to the end are the saved. God already made a pledge to them. He adopted them, washed them clean and made them coinheritors with The Son.

On Romans 8:13 one verse? Come on really? It’s an entire dialogue on contrasts. Either/or. I can pick out one verse to counter your verse. But that would just be playing the pretext eisegesis game.

Let’s look at the full context shall we?

Romans 8: NASB
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for ouradoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Oldmantook said:

No, rather what you believe they say which I totally disagree with.

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On Judas? I gave you what the Bible actually said about him. He was a devil, son of perdition, thief and Betrayer of Christ. He was also called unclean by our Lord.

The purpose of Judas was to fulfill the Scriptures.

Yet you want him to stand as “saved.” What kind of salvation is one with those “fruits?”

Sounds like a vessel of wrath.

Oldmantook said:

I suggest you refrain from committing a red herring logical fallacy as it only serves to weaken your argumentation.

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Identify the red herring. I gave you just two of many examples of God using non covenantal persons to accomplish His will, His purpose in executing judgement on His people.

jahel said:

Underserved favour is for anyone then, since your such a stickler for terms. Because God so loved the world. You mentioned Esau was hated but because of thinking his inheritance was a common thing not to be regarded as Holy. Surely there are more that God knows will reject grace but it’s not like Esau wasn’t entitled to begin with.

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I kinda think that Esau and Judas were in the same boat.

What I mean is they were both entitled to grace as is the whole world but they both deemed it of little importance in comparison to their own self-interests,

redleghunter said:

The pledge is given by God. Not our pledge.

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God pledges to always be faithful. Us humans - not so much. Easy to overlook the difference?

redleghunter said:

Who is arguing against a born again believer obeying God? Is there some “what if” included in your comments?

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IF a believer remains obedient he is saved. IF he does not remain obedient, he is not saved. Quite simple actually.

redleghunter said:

Yet you want him to stand as “saved.” What kind of salvation is one with those “fruits?”

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One is saved and good fruit (works) is the evidence of salvation. However, one can be saved and produce bad fruit. As usual you neglect to address verses I supply you with. Why is that? For example I already pointed out to you Js 5:19-20 which states My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
James contradicts your notion that a true believer will always obey and persevere in the faith. A brother who strays from the truth reaps the death of his soul if he does not repent. Frankly, I prefer to believe James.

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redleghunter said:

Identify the red herring. I gave you just two of many examples of God using non covenantal persons to accomplish His will, His purpose in executing judgement on His people

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Simply because you presume Judas was not saved, therefore red herring.

Nicolaus Mourer said:

Sure, I apologize about that. I get distracted by other things within an OP and often times forget to address the main question.

The main question is: "If i'm saved by faith and continue in sin am i still saved?"

Yes, the most clear statement for this doctrine is in John 5:24, which says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

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On the term "Believeth" there, do you not know believing in Christ/hearing his word entails doing as he says, or do you agree with that? I mean what would be the point of hearing his word if we don't take it to heart/obey it?

If you do believe that, the following verse more than suggests we we don't retain salvation because we say we believe, but we have to act right, as in doing good and not doing evil. But it appears you are saying believing, having faith, and hearing his word, does not entail obeying Christ, we only need say we have faith. is that what you're saying?

Here ya' go, please read it, answer the questions, and will you help me understand what exactly you believe? See, your "faith" part seems incomplete to me but it may be I'm missing something?...thanks:

Christ says, John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

"Done" is the key word there, meaning we must "do" or take action in order to get to heaven, so, at least to me "believing" must entail obeying Christ. Do you agree or disagree?

Zachm531 said:

Eph 2:8-9 we are saved by Grace through faith NOT OF WORKS.

The Bible never says to repent of your sins. It says multiple times to repent and turn to God, but never repent of your sins.

If i'm saved by faith and continue in sin am i still saved? If you say "yes", then you are labeled as an easy believest and are disregarding scriptures like 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and Revelation 21:8 and Matthew 7:21-23

BUT

If you say "no" then you are saying that it takes faith and works to be saved which is completely unbiblical: Galatians 5:4 Ephesians 2:8-9 Romans 3:28

I propose that salvation can only be obtained when grace is given to you. FOR BY GRACE are we saved through faith. Once God gives you grace, you believe and you turn from your sins. Once one has received grace, they no longer want to sin, they want to obey God. Grace is overlooked in the Bible but you cant have faith or works without grace. Ephesians 2:10 2 Corinthians 12:9 Romans 6:14 Romans 11:6 Hebrews 4:16

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Wrong

“ 2 Corinthians 12:21. And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.”

The dangers of certain doctrines and how they teach it's followers that one must not read the Bible with any logic or critical thinking.

That is what is really sad about this forum because you end up questioning what you believe just based on the fact that so many "my eyes are opened" people can't even tell what is right from wrong.

redleghunter said:

John 17: NASB
So Judas was a devil, son of perdition and unclean. He would fulfill the Scriptures. Not only this but Jesus said it would have been better that Judas was never born:

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Do you believe that Judas was predestined to sin? Was his birth decided by God to just betray Jesus?

Zachm531 said:

Eph 2:8-9 we are saved by Grace through faith NOT OF WORKS.

The Bible never says to repent of your sins. It says multiple times to repent and turn to God, but never repent of your sins.

If i'm saved by faith and continue in sin am i still saved? If you say "yes", then you are labeled as an easy believest and are disregarding scriptures like 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and Revelation 21:8 and Matthew 7:21-23

BUT

If you say "no" then you are saying that it takes faith and works to be saved which is completely unbiblical: Galatians 5:4 Ephesians 2:8-9 Romans 3:28

I propose that salvation can only be obtained when grace is given to you. FOR BY GRACE are we saved through faith. Once God gives you grace, you believe and you turn from your sins. Once one has received grace, they no longer want to sin, they want to obey God. Grace is overlooked in the Bible but you cant have faith or works without grace. Ephesians 2:10 2 Corinthians 12:9 Romans 6:14 Romans 11:6 Hebrews 4:16

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When we sin, we "grieve" God's Holy Spirit.

If we love God as we say we do, why WOULDN'T it "grieve" us, that we "grieved" His Holy Spirit.

We are admonished to hate what God hates.

That would be sin.

If we hate sin, we should be grieved when we do sin, because it MATTERS to us that we have sinned against the living God, and grieved His Holy Spirit..

As David poured out his heart before God after he sinned, saying to God "you ONLY have I sinned against", so should we.

The bottom line is, do we hate sin, or do we love sin?

Our "walk" before the Lord should be one of a humble heart before Him, and our heart is humble because we know that we are currently but flesh in our current state and thus we have a propensity to wander from God, get distracted, and become enamored with this world, etc.

We seek His strength to sustain us in this walk, as we "walk with Him" continually.

We are also admonished to "examine" ourselves, and just as David prayed, asking God to "search his heart", so are we to do the same.

Acts 10:15 "And a voice came to him again a
second time, What God has cleansed, do not consider common!"
This refers to the people whom God has cleansed through the
redeeming blood of Christ.
I don’t believe any were considered left out of that covering for any reason.

Cis.jd said:

Do you believe that Judas was predestined to sin? Was his birth decided by God to just betray Jesus?

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Truly there’s little on Judas.

I think we can follow what Jesus said about him. That it would have been better if Judas was not born.

redleghunter said:

One was a devil. What does that tell you?

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That he had given himself over to Satan. Not that he was never saved. But my point was that Calvinist use the " I chose you" verse to apply to every Christian. Interesting that you say it was just for 11 disciples.

redleghunter said:

Truly there’s little on Judas.

I think we can follow what Jesus said about him. That it would have been better if Judas was not born.

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The same could be said about any one who chooses hell.

redleghunter said:

Truly there’s little on Judas.

I think we can follow what Jesus said about him. That it would have been better if Judas was not born.

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Sure.. isnt kinda sad though to be born/created just to do a job that results in a cursed legacy but damned for it.

If Judas had a choice and foreknowledge of things, and then declined on betraying Jesus, would he be disobeying God? Wouldnt it be selfish to say no since he chose to save his own self instead of playing his role by bringing Jesus to the hands of the authorities, hence declining in assisting God to carry out his plan to save the world?

renniks said:

That he had given himself over to Satan. Not that he was never saved. But my point was that Calvinist use the " I chose you" verse to apply to every Christian. Interesting that you say it was just for 11 disciples.

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Chosen for what exactly? If you believe Judas was chosen for eternal life then why would Jesus say it would have been better that Judas was never born?

Cis.jd said:

Sure.. isnt kinda sad though to be born/created just to do a job that results in a cursed legacy but damned for it.

If Judas had a choice and foreknowledge of things, and then declined on betraying Jesus, would he be disobeying God? Wouldnt it be selfish to say no since he chose to save his own self instead of playing his role by bringing Jesus to the hands of the authorities, hence declining in assisting God to carry out his plan to save the world?

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Judas did act freely according to his nature.

Cis.jd said:

Sure.. isnt kinda sad though to be born/created just to do a job that results in a cursed legacy but damned for it.

If Judas had a choice and foreknowledge of things, and then declined on betraying Jesus, would he be disobeying God? Wouldnt it be selfish to say no since he chose to save his own self instead of playing his role by bringing Jesus to the hands of the authorities, hence declining in assisting God to carry out his plan to save the world?

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That sounds like it’s from “the gospel of Judas’ that proclaimed that Jesus asked Judas to betray Him. But since the last of the fragments have been reclaimed it’s been realized that the writing doesn’t say that at all.