THE LAST DAYS!

keras said:

You confuse first century events with ones prophesied for our time.
Such as Judah going back to occupy Jerusalem.

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Where in the discussion does it say that Judah will reoccupy Jerusalem? I see the prophecy as the destruction of Judah and Jerusalem.

David Kent said:

I separate those that are fulfilled from thos that are not fulfilled yet.
The fig tree does not represent anyone. When you see the fig tree and all the trees, bud, (Luke) then you will know that all these things are near.

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The 'fig tree' does represent Judah, Jeremiah 24:1-10 and other instances. Israel is represented by the vine.
All the trees; that have also 'budded', refers to how virtually all of the nations have prospered in this modern age.

Thinking that Matthew 24:32 is meaningless, is a rejection of Jesus Words.
We have seen the fulfilment of that prophecy in the Jewish State of Israel.

keras said:

The 'fig tree' does represent Judah, Jeremiah 24:1-10 and other instances. Israel is represented by the vine.
All the trees; that have also 'budded', refers to how virtually all of the nations have prospered in this modern age.

Thinking that Matthew 24:32 is meaningless, is a rejection of Jesus Words.
We have seen the fulfilment of that prophecy in the Jewish State of Israel.

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Not meaningless. Jesus used it as sign for the Christians to leave Jerusalem. Olivet does not mention a return in 1948.

And all the trees?

David Kent said:

No he didn't. He was refering to the Abomination of Desolation, when they saw thaose things that is the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem, they should leave Judea. Luke makes it clearer when he says, "When you see the Fig tree and ALL THE TREES burst into life, then you know that summer is near" so when they saw the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem then they would know that its desolation was near.
Eusebius said that the christians in Jerusalem left the city in accordance with the command of Jesus and not one Christian died in the war. "This generation" cannot mean any other than the generation Jesus was addressing. especially as he used a very similar term in Matthew 23 when speaking of the woe on the Pharrisees.

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You are contradicting the crystal clear chronology of events though. This part in your quotes above---"When you see the Fig tree and ALL THE TREES burst into life, then you know that summer is near" so when they saw the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem then they would know that its desolation was near"---does not fit with this part from your quotes above---"He was refering to the Abomination of Desolation, when they saw those things that is the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem, they should leave Judea".

You indicated Luke makes this clearer. So let's look at Luke then.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Are there any events that chronologically occur after these events? Yes. The following for one.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Where does Matthew 24 place these events recorded in Luke 21:25-27?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

It places Luke 21:25-27 immediately after the tribulation of those days. And that includes the coming recorded in Luke 21:27.

The context at this point no longer concerns the trib of those days, because those days are behind us at this point, but has now shifted into the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, following the trib of those days, and following the time or during when the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

So when we get to verse 32 in Matthew 24, verse 29 in Luke 21, the context no longer concerns anything having to do with the trib of those days, but concerns what particular events lead into the coming of the Son of man and it's aftermaths. Those particular events being recorded in Matthew 24:29 and luke 21:25-26.

There is no coming of the Son of man during the trib of those days. One can't find that anywhere in the Discourse. The coming is after the trib of those days, and after or during the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

DavidPT said:

You are contradicting the crystal clear chronology of events though. This part in your quotes above---"When you see the Fig tree and ALL THE TREES burst into life, then you know that summer is near" so when they saw the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem then they would know that its desolation was near"---does not fit with this part from your quotes above---"He was refering to the Abomination of Desolation, when they saw those things that is the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem, they should leave Judea".

You indicated Luke makes this clearer. So let's look at Luke then.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Are there any events that chronologically occur after these events? Yes. The following for one.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Where does Matthew 24 place these events recorded in Luke 21:25-27?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

It places Luke 21:25-27 immediately after the tribulation of those days. And that includes the coming recorded in Luke 21:27.

The context at this point no longer concerns the trib of those days, because those days are behind us at this point, but has now shifted into the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, following the trib of those days, and following the time or during when the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

So when we get to verse 32 in Matthew 24, verse 29 in Luke 21, the context no longer concerns anything having to do with the trib of those days, but concerns what particular events lead into the coming of the Son of man and it's aftermaths. Those particular events being recorded in Matthew 24:29 and luke 21:25-26.

There is no coming of the Son of man during the trib of those days. One can't find that anywhere in the Discourse. The coming is after the trib of those days, and after or during the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

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The account doesn't refer to the second coming till Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour no one knows, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

David Kent said:

The account doesn't refer to the second coming till Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour no one knows, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

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How do you figure that though? In Matthew 24:30 it was already referring to the 2nd coming. That is the context at this point. Verse 32 is part of the same context involving verse 30, which makes verse 34 part of that same context as well. Starting from verse 29 to the end of the chapter, the context involves what leads up the 2nd coming, the 2nd coming itself, and what happens after the 2nd coming. None of those verses involve anything having to do with first century events.

Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

The text says---when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

What is near, even at the doors? Let's consult Luke 21 for a moment.

Luke 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

According to verse 31, Matthew 24:33 should be understood like such---So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that the kingdom of God is near, even at the doors.

Let's consider Luke 19 for a moment as well.

Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

In verse 12, obviously a certain nobleman is meaning Christ. went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom--is meaning his ascension into heaven where He is still currently located. and to return---meaning His 2nd coming.

Verse 11 indicates--- and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. Obviously meaning in a physical visible sense. So the parable goes on to tell us why it didn't immediately appear at the time like some were assuming it should. It is because verse 12 needed to be fulfilled first. verse 15 is meaning the return recorded in verse 12, and that verse 15 indicates this---that when he was returned, having received the kingdom---which would obviously have to mean at this point, the kingdom of God finally physically visibly appears. This then showing that the kingdom of God mentioned in Luke 21:29 is still nigh at hand, rather than at hand, is because it is getting close to being at hand once one sees all of these things being fulfilled.

keras said:

The 'fig tree' does represent Judah, Jeremiah 24:1-10 and other instances. Israel is represented by the vine.
All the trees; that have also 'budded', refers to how virtually all of the nations have prospered in this modern age.

Thinking that Matthew 24:32 is meaningless, is a rejection of Jesus Words.
We have seen the fulfilment of that prophecy in the Jewish State of Israel.

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Modern Israel is known as Israel, not Judah.

How then can it be represented by the fig tree, which you claim represents Judah?

jgr said:

Modern Israel is known as Israel, not Judah.

How then can it be represented by the fig tree, which you claim represents Judah?

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In world politics, Jewish state is a characterization of the nation state of Israel as a sovereign homeland of Jewish people. Modern Israel came into existence on 14 May 1948 as the homeland for the Jewish people. It was also defined in its declaration of independence as a "Jewish state," a term that appeared in the United Nations partition decision of 1947 as well. The related term "Jewish and democratic state" dates from 1992 legislation by the Israeli Knesset.
Ref: Wikipedia

What is your reason to deny the claim of the current citizens of Israel to be Jewish: of Judah?
The fact is they claim to be Jewish and are recognized as such by the world. Whether they are truly descendants of Judah or not, isn't for us to question. God only knows who are or who are not. Amos 9:9

God has allowed them to gather in a part of the holy Land.
But Bible prophecy is clear; they face Judgment/punishment for their sins and continued rejection of Jesus.

keras said:

God has allowed them to gather in a part of the holy Land.
But Bible prophecy is clear; they face Judgment/punishment for their sins and continued rejection of Jesus.

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What do we do with Ezekiel 39 then? Remove it from the Bible since it doesn't seem to fit anywhere, assuming your position is correct? I don't see the House of Israel in the end of this age facing judgment/punishment for their sins and continued rejection of Jesus in that chapter. I instead see Gog and his multitude being judged/punished in the end of this age for attacking the House of Israel in that chapter.

DavidPT said:

What do we do with Ezekiel 39 then? Remove it from the Bible since it doesn't seem to fit anywhere, assuming your position is correct? I don't see the House of Israel in the end of this age facing judgment/punishment for their sins and continued rejection of Jesus in that chapter. I instead see Gog and his multitude being judged/punished in the end of this age for attacking the House of Israel in that chapter.

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The sequence of events is: Next the Sixth Seal- the terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath that will clear and cleanse all the holy Land. only a remnant of Messianic Jews will remain in Jerusalem. Isaiah 29:1-4, Romans 9:27
Then the Christian peoples will migrate to and live there; blessed and protected by the Lord. As seen in Ezekiel 38:8-12

WE Christians are the people of God, His true Israelites.
WE are there, in the holy Land when the Anti-Christ leader of the One World Govt breaks his treaty with us. Proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7
This scenario may be foreign to you, but it is Biblical and will happen!
Great will be the time!

keras said:

In world politics, Jewish state is a characterization of the nation state of Israel as a sovereign homeland of Jewish people. Modern Israel came into existence on 14 May 1948 as the homeland for the Jewish people. It was also defined in its declaration of independence as a "Jewish state," a term that appeared in the United Nations partition decision of 1947 as well. The related term "Jewish and democratic state" dates from 1992 legislation by the Israeli Knesset.
Ref: Wikipedia

What is your reason to deny the claim of the current citizens of Israel to be Jewish: of Judah?
The fact is they claim to be Jewish and are recognized as such by the world. Whether they are truly descendants of Judah or not, isn't for us to question. God only knows who are or who are not. Amos 9:9

God has allowed them to gather in a part of the holy Land.
But Bible prophecy is clear; they face Judgment/punishment for their sins and continued rejection of Jesus.

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Keras -- you, I, and the "Jews" themselves know that Abraham's genome is ubiquitous within the human race. The Jews applaud it as the literal fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham.

The nation of Israel is no more Jewish than any other nation.

I think what you have to do is contextualize the last days, in terms of "a thousand years, being as one day to the Lord".

In that sense, there have only been three possible candidates for the last days: the first thousand, the first and second thousand or the second thousand.

Alternatively, you could attribute the last days to any of the thousand year periods still to come.

Not helpful, right? You need to know, when? Well, rushing the word is a sign of the last days - but let me have a guess.

If John the Baptist has already returned and been sacrificed, the last days would be the thousand year period following the first two.

If the Holy Spirit had already come and been sacrificed, the last days would be prolonged to the third and fourth and partially fifth periods of a thousand years.

Which one is right? That's the point, if the Holy Spirit is able to prolong the last days, the Holy Spirit is right; if the days of John the Baptist are shortened, then John the Baptist is right.

So, it is up to us to interpret the times.

jgr said:

Keras -- you, I, and the "Jews" themselves know that Abraham's genome is ubiquitous within the human race. The Jews applaud it as the literal fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham.

The nation of Israel is no more Jewish than any other nation.

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You are right, we all have at least a smidgen of Abe's genes.
BUT the facts on the ground; our present situation, is that there is a nation who call themselves Jews and their country; Israel.

We know that God is the One who sets up nations and tears them down, according to His will.
I believe that the Jewish State of Israel was set up by God, helped by Him in their wars, for the purpose of having a false Israel, Satan controlled; while He worked with the true Israelites, every faithful Christian person, in preparation for them to be His people in all of the holy Land, His witnesses, Isaiah 43:8-13, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations, Isaiah 49:3-8, Mathew 5:14-16

keras said:

Then the Christian peoples will migrate to and live there; blessed and protected by the Lord. As seen in Ezekiel 38:8-12

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Then you must think God has been hiding His face from Christian peoples in that case.

What about Ezekiel 39 then? Where do you chronologically place those events in relation to Ezekiel 38:8-12?


Verse 16 in Ezekiel 38 says this---And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

Verse 7 in Ezekiel 39 says this---So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.


How then can my people of Israel in Ezekiel 38:16, who you are apparently claiming are Christian peoples that migrate there, not be the same my people Israel in Ezekiel 39:7? How then can my people Israel in both chapters not be meaning the House of Israel God is hiding His face from until after God executes judgment on Gog and his multitude? How then can my people Israel in either chapter possibly be meaning Christian peoples that migrate to the region?

DavidPT said:

Then you must think God has been hiding His face from Christian peoples in that case.

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Do you see the Lord's face?
No, we don't have His Presence with us, just the Spirit. He will be present during the Millennium.

DavidPT said:

What about Ezekiel 39 then? Where do you chronologically place those events in relation to Ezekiel 38:8-12?

How then can my people of Israel in Ezekiel 38:16, who you are apparently claiming are Christian peoples that migrate there, not be the same my people Israel in Ezekiel 39:7? How then can my people Israel in both chapters not be meaning the House of Israel God is hiding His face from until after God executes judgment on Gog and his multitude? How then can my people Israel in either chapter possibly be meaning Christian peoples that migrate to the region?

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Ezekiel 38 and 39 are all the same time, when all of the Lord's faithful people live in all of the holy land, soon after the Sixth Seal event has cleared and cleansed it. At least 10 years before the Return.
WE Christians are the Israelites of God, whether by faith or by descent, or both.
What is obvious, is the current situation will be completely changed and the people living in the holy Land when Gog attacks will not be the ones there now.
In Ezekiel 37:20-27, it shows how both Israel and Judah, all the faithful peoples of God, will become a single nation in the holy Land.
They will conform to My Laws and observe them faithfully....
Not the case at present, but how it will be. Great will be the day!

keras said:

Ezekiel 38 and 39 are all the same time, when all of the Lord's faithful people live in all of the holy land, soon after the Sixth Seal event has cleared and cleansed it. At least 10 years before the Return.

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But the description doesn't fit Christians in Ezekiel 38 and 39. These verses do not fit Christians.

Ezekiel 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

Douggg said:

But the description doesn't fit Christians in Ezekiel 38 and 39. These verses do not fit Christians.

Ezekiel 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

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Who is the true Israel of God? The Overcomers for Him?
Faithful Christians, descendants of Jacob by faith; the ones who the Lord will save and protect during His Day of fiery wrath, then settle in all of the holy land, where He will bless them and destroy their enemies. Joel 2:20
Proved by the presence of God's holy people there in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7

Ezekiel 39:22-23 does specify the House of Israel.
However this title does not apply to the Jewish House of Judah, so it isn't them who are occupying the holy Land when Gog attacks.
Who else can it be, than those who are the people of God today?

keras said:

Ezekiel 39:22-23 does specify the House of Israel.
However this title does not apply to the Jewish House of Judah, so it isn't them who are occupying the holy Land when Gog attacks.
Who else can it be, than those who are the people of God today?

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Keras, do you know what you are not taking into account in your view?

The real Jews, and the real Israel is still in unbelief that Jesus the messiah. And the rejection of him is why they have had such a hard time for the past 2000 years.

It will not be until the middle of the 7 years that they become believers in Jesus. Which all of the verses of Ezekiel 38 and 39, then makes sense.

Douggg said:

Keras, do you know what you are not taking into account in your view?

The real Jews, and the real Israel is still in unbelief that Jesus the messiah. And the rejection of him is why they have had such a hard time for the past 2000 years.

It will not be until the middle of the 7 years that they become believers in Jesus. Which all of the verses of Ezekiel 38 and 39, then makes sense.

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Dougggg, do you realize how you contradict the many prophesies that plainly say how Judah will be punished and only a small remnant will survive?
Amos 2:4-5, Hosea 8:14, Jeremiah 19:11, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Isaiah 2:14, +

The prophesies don't make sense to anyone who grips onto false theories and sci-fi ideas like going to live in heaven.

The idea of a general Jewish redemption is not Biblical and will never happen.

keras said:

Dougggg, do you realize how you contradict the many prophesies that plainly say how Judah will be punished and only a small remnant will survive?
Amos 2:4-5, Hosea 8:14, Jeremiah 19:11, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Isaiah 2:14, +

The prophesies don't make sense to anyone who grips onto false theories and sci-fi ideas like going to live in heaven.

The idea of a general Jewish redemption is not Biblical and will never happen.

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Keras, Ezekiel 38-39 is showing that your are drawing the wrong conclusions.